[00:00] <sandfly> i have no problems supporting the supporters, i just don’t trust any one with my files, sosupportr no support
[00:04] <sandfly> u must not of heard about sony and their saga
[00:06] <sandfly> databases can be breached with enough effort and all that data in one place is just asking for it
[00:07] <ali1234> i would never put anything i cared about on the cloud
[00:07] <ali1234> apart from anything else it's unnecessary - i know how to run my own server
[00:07] <sandfly> but people do
[00:07] <ali1234> yeah i know
[00:08] <ali1234> syncing is different though
[00:08] <ali1234> if it's so secret it's not going on a netbook that can get stolen either
[00:10] <sandfly> lol, nothing is bullet proof, its all about risk management
[00:11] <ali1234> exactly
[00:12] <ali1234> the real lesson that is to be learned from sony is that when you buy digital media with drm, it can be taken away at any time and without warning, no matter how much backups you do
[00:13] <ali1234> i guarantee you that any DRM media you buy today will stop working long before the equivalent physical product
[00:14] <sandfly> lol, don’t get me started on sony, its pass my bed time, to all a good night
[00:21] <hamitron> :/
[00:23] <reaper4334> ?
[00:23] <hamitron> just DRM
[00:23] <hamitron> :/
[00:24] <reaper4334> fair enough
[01:00] <reaper4334> time for bed, goodnight all
[03:25] <ubuntuuk-planet> [Jono Bacon] Explaining UDS Sponsorship - http://www.jonobacon.org/2011/05/17/explaining-uds-sponsorship/
[06:53] <DevilSolution_> lSolution
[06:53] <DevilSolution_> hmmm
[07:27] <daubers_> Morning
[07:46] <danfish> moo
[07:53] <AlanBell> morning all
[07:53]  * AlanBell is off to the cabinet office again today
[08:20] <DJones> Morning all
[08:28] <danfish> morning DJones - I was thinking about those swanky holidays you sell - what discount are you offering for ubuntu-uk peeps? :P
[08:29] <danfish> I think 40% would be reasonable
[08:29] <TheOpenSourcerer> Morning everyone.
[08:30] <TheOpenSourcerer> Just reading about Groklaw 2.0 and how ~20% of the EU's GDP is ICT related...
[08:30] <TheOpenSourcerer> http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20110515173831922
[08:33] <diplo> morning all
[08:35] <DJones> danfish: 40% off would still be way beyond my earning capeability on a $40-50000/week holiday, I'd need a salary nearer to the footballers/football managers/tv presenters & national shopping chain owners, so if I can't have a decent discount, there's none available for anybody else :)
[08:37] <danfish> DJones: heh - you can only ask :)
[08:38] <danfish> 40-50000 on a holiday is just plain nuts
[08:38] <DJones> danfish: This is true, there's not much you get without asking
[08:39] <DJones> danfish: The customers we've got that pay that sort of money can afford it, its less than a weeks wages for them
[08:40] <danfish> there's something rather wrong with that I feel, but that's for the politics channels
[08:43] <DJones> Agreed, just worked it out going on news reports on the web about one guys salary, $50,000 would be two days wages (before tax) and assuming he's got the ususal tax advisors, he won't be paying much of that
[08:45] <DJones> rather than a politics channel, I'd put that discussion in a #I've_got_little_academic_qualifications_but_I_can_kick_a_bag_of_ wind_around channel
[08:47]  * TheOpenSourcerer fondly remembers his Honeymoon and when he could afford to use Relais & Chateau as his hotel guide.
[08:47]  * DJones would remember his honeymoon if it wasn't for the litre of tequila drunk on the last night
[08:48] <TheOpenSourcerer> DJones: we went here for a few days after Tanzania: http://www.mnemba.com/
[08:48] <TheOpenSourcerer> Awesome.
[08:48] <DJones> TheOpenSourcerer: That looks great
[08:48] <danfish> that's looks rather nice :)
[08:48] <TheOpenSourcerer> 11 years ago it was $1k a night.
[08:49] <TheOpenSourcerer> each.
[08:49] <danfish> I god food poisoning on my honeymoon and spent the 16hr flight back on the toilet :(
[08:49] <TheOpenSourcerer> That is all inclusive mind you.
[08:50] <TheOpenSourcerer> Even better pictures: http://www.mnemba-island.com/
[08:51] <TheOpenSourcerer> Ahh - now it's $1.5k
[08:51] <DJones> We went to Cancun, similar sort of view, was a brilliant place about 20 miles outside the town centre, nothing around
[08:52] <danfish> Bali - before the bombing
[08:53] <TheOpenSourcerer> When we went to Tanzania it was only a week after the Embassy in Dar-es-salam was bombed.
[08:54] <danfish> This year it's a (probably wet) week near Bridport in Dorzet
[08:55] <DJones> danfish: Ours will be a week or two in the caravan in the middle of nowhere with nothing to do except rest, read, walk the dog and relax
[08:56] <danfish> DJones: what about the internets - shurely you must have the internets?
[08:56] <selinuxium> morning all! :)   o/
[08:56] <DJones> danfish: 3G if needed, although quite a few sites have wifi
[08:59] <TheOpenSourcerer> Hi selinuxium
[08:59] <selinuxium> Mine will be a field with some very drunk friends and metal music for a whole week...
[08:59] <selinuxium> Hi TheOpenSourcerer :)
[08:59] <selinuxium> TheOpenSourcerer, I am playing with vTiger atm... :
[08:59] <selinuxium> :)
[09:00] <TheOpenSourcerer> Our holiday consists of Mrs TheOpenSourcerer taking the kids camping in France then me joining them for a few days in Paris.
[09:00] <nigelb> hey TheOpenSourcerer
[09:00] <TheOpenSourcerer> Hi nigelb
[09:00] <TheOpenSourcerer> selinuxium: I'm just estimating some work on vtiger at the mo.
[09:00] <DJones> That reminds me I need to decide when & where to go
[09:01] <selinuxium> looks powerful, just need to work out the glue... :)
[09:01] <danfish> TheOpenSourcerer: tres bon! <--- limit of my french
[09:02] <DJones> TheOpenSourcerer: So your holiday is while Mrs TheOpenSourcerer is camping with the kids :)
[09:02] <TheOpenSourcerer> DJones: Correct.
[09:02] <TheOpenSourcerer> I get to go to the pub every evening :-D
[09:02] <TheOpenSourcerer> And eat Curry
[09:03] <selinuxium> Bliss...
[09:03] <TheOpenSourcerer> And watch TV and have loud music
[09:05] <danfish> TheOpenSourcerer: your wife should be nominated for sainthood ;)
[09:05] <TheOpenSourcerer> Yeah danfish She is really good to me...
[09:06] <TheOpenSourcerer> Mostly.
[09:06] <TheOpenSourcerer> And the kids.
[09:06] <TheOpenSourcerer> Anyway - must get on. Lots to do and concetration required.
[09:09]  * DJones trys to decide whether to go North or South with the caravan, Option 1 Scotland/Cumbria weather seems quite a bit cooler, Option 2 south of the country, weather warmer & drier
[09:10]  * TheOpenSourcerer feels that anyone with a caravan should be banned from travelling during the summer months,
[09:11] <selinuxium> DJones, I love Cumbria... but then I live in Southend, so have sun and water (in English quantities)
[09:11] <hoover> moin
[09:11] <hoover> er, mornin all ;-)
[09:12] <DJones> selinuxium: yeah, I like Cumbria, but I've always found the weather is that bit cooler and wetter, probably go south and find somewhere with 5-10 mile walks for the dog
[09:13] <DJones> Its always better walking a dog when its dry, a wet dog in a caravan isn't the best thing to have
[09:13] <MooDoo> hello all
[09:13] <selinuxium> DJones, http://www.walkingclub.org.uk/book_2/walk_28/index.shtml
[09:14] <selinuxium> DJones, you don't get much more south without getting wet..
[09:15] <oimon> bodmin moor is a favourite place of mine for walks etc
[09:15] <oimon> i have an energetic doggy
[09:15] <DJones> selinuxium: That looks a useful website, I'll bookmark that
[09:16] <selinuxium> DJones, :)
[09:16] <DJones> I like Yorkshire/Derbyshire Dales with the dog, really good walks
[09:16] <MooDoo> DJones: bakewell has some good walks and hills :D
[09:16] <oimon> and tarts
[09:16] <selinuxium> oimon, Chasing the ponies? :)
[09:16] <selinuxium> Everyone likes a tart..
[09:17] <oimon> selinuxium: yeah :D those wild ponies are great
[09:17] <DJones> selinuxium: When I was walking the dog the other day, 3 horses & riders went past & the dog was looking at them wanting to go and play
[09:17] <MooDoo> popey: puddings from bakewell, say tarts and you'll get shot :)
[09:17] <MooDoo> why did i send that to popey ?
[09:17] <oimon> :D
[09:19] <oimon> driving around cornwall makes me feel like i'm in an episode of postman pat
[09:19] <selinuxium> :)
[09:21] <DJones> I quite fancy somewhere in teh costwalds area
[09:24] <dwatkins> I remember driving around the south west years ago and having great fun going down a 1-in-3 hill somewhere with an escape route for cars with breaking problems
[09:24] <oimon> porlock hill?
[09:24] <dwatkins> oimon: sounds like the one, yeah
[09:25] <oimon> dwatkins: going up it in a 1300cc golf with 5 men in the car was a bit scary
[09:25] <dwatkins> I can well imagine, oimon.
[09:25] <dwatkins> 'the UK's steepest A-road'
[09:25] <oimon> would be more confident nowadays as i have a diesel that could probably drive itself up
[09:25] <dwatkins> I guess there are steeper B-roads, ostensibly
[09:25]  * dutchie gets to do his first long drive this summer
[09:26] <dutchie> worcester -> torquay
[09:26] <oimon> it's an A road because you shout AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAh all the way
[09:26] <MartijnVdS> oimon: who are you? Clarkson? :)
[09:26] <oimon> MartijnVdS: lol, clarkson hates diesels :)
[09:26] <MartijnVdS> oimon: he would shout "AAAAAAAAAAh" on A roads though
[09:26] <oimon> although i'd vote him for MP
[09:28] <oimon> not for his politics but for his ability to cut through the crap to talk common sense when people are dithering
 porlock hill?
[09:29] <Tommeh> One of my old man's lorries took a nasty fall down there once.
[09:29] <Tommeh> (Needless to say, it was another idiot driving it, not him)
[09:29] <oimon> lorry? must have a death wish
[09:29] <Tommeh> Young, stupid. Was "only" a small lorry.
[09:29] <Tommeh> Oddly enough the brakes went and weee... Roll.
[09:29] <oimon> we were on a lads holiday in minehead and drove to porlock hill just for the crack :)
[09:30] <Tommeh> Minehead? You poor sod :p
[09:30] <oimon> i think it was an event at butlins
[09:30] <oimon> i was young...
[09:30] <Tommeh> Yeaah.. I've been there. Used to go for the fairground.
[09:31] <Tommeh> Years and years ago
[09:31] <oimon> although i went to bognor more recently for a weekend...a bit better
[09:31] <Tommeh> Anywhere but Minehead :)
[09:31] <Tommeh> It's as rough as anything if you stray outside the family bits.
[09:32] <DJones> Last time I went to Minehead I was 10 months old, did I miss anything?
[09:32] <Tommeh> Nooope.
[09:32] <Tommeh> Don't go back ;D
[09:32] <Tommeh> Same goes for Tiverton.
[09:32] <Tommeh> But there's not even a Butlins there, so even less reason to visit.
[09:32] <oimon> oh :(
[09:32] <oimon> i'm going on holiday near there lol
[09:33] <Tommeh> Nice road from Tiverton to Exeter.. That's about the only reason to drive through :p
[09:33] <DJones> Tommeh: A group of us are due to go to Butlins at Minehead next April
[09:33] <oimon> i'm actually gong a few miles west of tiverton - intentionally in the middle of nowhere
[09:33] <Tommeh> oimon: where my parent's live, or thereabouts.
[09:33] <oimon> no wonder it was cheap ;)
[09:34] <Tommeh> Cheap to stay: there's naff-all there ;)
[09:34] <Tommeh> DJones: it may have gotten better. I could well be jaded by the state of nights out around Minehead.
[09:34] <oimon> Tommeh: http://www.google.com/maps/ms?ptab=2&ie=UTF8&oe=UTF8&t=h&msa=0&msid=112619599761742333476.000472d646d8c5f58c282
[09:34] <dwatkins> I think I'd rather go to Aviemore if it's that rough in Minehead. ;)
[09:35] <Tommeh> oimon: Ahh.. They live directly north of the A361 from there -- the Oldways End area.
[09:35] <oimon> Tommeh: the intention is not to do much, we will be taking a newborn and a 1 1/2 yr old and some bikes
[09:35] <Tommeh> Nice and scenic up there.. Nearly on Exmoor by that point. But genuinely nothing of interest bar scenary :p
[09:36] <Tommeh> Fair play :)
[09:36] <oimon> went to island of portland last year - best views in UK IMHO
[09:36] <gord> 12 hours later, badblocks is on 52% :(
[09:37] <oimon> Tommeh: mind you, i live in London and crazy people come here for a holiday
[09:37] <Tommeh> Yes, crazy people. :/
[09:37] <oimon> i want to leave the crowds
[09:37] <Tommeh> Goin to the right place then I guess :)
[09:37] <Tommeh> Growing up around there was a social nightmare.
[09:37] <oimon> i bet lol
[09:37] <Tommeh> Hence I live in the centre of Manchester now ;D
[09:37] <oimon> i studied in Manc
[09:37] <oimon> 3 yrs
[09:37] <Tommeh> I love it me.
[09:38] <Tommeh> Wish I'd studied here instead of Stafford :/
[09:38] <oimon> rained a lot
[09:38] <Tommeh> Microclimate.. Literally rains more than anywhere else.
[09:38] <oimon> heh my best mate studied at S.O.T.
[09:38] <Tommeh> Damn him!
[09:38] <Tommeh> All the girls were on the Stoke campus :'(
[09:38] <Tommeh> Stafford was just Engineers and geeks.
[09:38] <oimon> yeah thats true
[09:39] <oimon> i lived in dirty fallowfield in manc thoug
[09:39] <oimon> filthy place
[09:39] <Tommeh> Least it wasn't Moss Side ;p
[09:39] <oimon> true
[09:39] <oimon> didn't get mugged or burgled so thats a bonus
[09:40] <selinuxium> DJones, http://www.sallyscottages.co.uk/pet-friendly-cottages   I stayed at Bank Barn cottage... was lovely..
[09:40] <Tommeh> Stafford was rough in places. Small town syndrome for the most part. House I lived in got the back door kicked in.. For a Nintendo DS and some DVDs.
[09:40] <Tommeh> Still, got us a new back door.
[09:41] <Tommeh> (Which didn't have gaps in it)
[09:41] <gord> my back door is made out of glass, good luck kicking that in!
[09:43] <DJones> selinuxium: Thinking about a site in Exmoor at the minute
[09:45] <JamesTait> Good morning all!
[09:48] <hoover> mornin
[10:02] <SuperMatt> hurm, random pondering
[10:02] <SuperMatt> a bit of me would like to see the menu bar become fully opaque (if you have transparency on) if you maximise a window, otherwise it looks silly
[10:03] <SuperMatt> I only say that because firefox and open office look weird maximised
[10:03] <MartijnVdS> I just disable the global menu bits
[10:04] <SuperMatt> though everything else looks fine
[10:04] <SuperMatt> also, maybe a simple lock button for the dock...
[10:04] <SuperMatt> so I can lock it open from time to time
[10:07] <BigRedS> Mmm, speaking of unity menus, I've got this weird blue corner going on: http://avi.co/stuff/blue-corner.png
[10:08] <SuperMatt> that means that *something* wants your attention
[10:08] <BigRedS> hah, handy
[10:08] <DJones> BigRedS: Are you using X-chat
[10:08] <BigRedS> oooh, it's gone away
[10:08] <BigRedS> DJones: nah
[10:08] <SuperMatt> it bugs me that you can't tell which one it is without clicking on ever app
[10:08] <BigRedS> wonder what I focused through
[10:09] <BigRedS> hm, thunderbird, firefox and terminator as far as I can tell...
[10:09] <DJones> BigRedS: Its normally if something has highlighted you, the one I know does it is xchat, maybe empathy/evolution
[10:09] <DJones> http://askubuntu.com/questions/38950/when-do-things-in-the-new-unity-panel-turn-blue
[10:11] <BigRedS> Ah, so I might've opened something but not yet focussed on it, too
[10:11] <BigRedS> still, there's really not much going on on my desktop... I'm a bit amused by that as a notification, though
[10:12] <DJones> Heh, makes me think of a group of kids, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me
[10:13] <bigcalm> DJones: I think you've found the definition of a group of computer nerds :P
[10:13] <BigRedS> haha, yeah, though I kinda like the button-popping-out-of-the-side thing
[10:34]  * oimon loves live migration
[10:34] <oimon> AKA vmotion
[10:44] <oimon> FYI http://www.ukuug.org/events/opentech2011/
[10:44] <oimon> OpenTech 2011 is an informal, low cost, one-day conference on slightly different approaches to technology, transport and democracy. Talks by people who work on things that matter, guarantees a day of thoughtful talks leading to conversations with friends
[11:22] <brobostigon> good morning everyone.
[11:23]  * czajkowski stabs davmor2 
[11:24] <andylockran> morning all
[11:24] <brobostigon> morning andylockran
[11:24] <andylockran> considering setting up an ubuntu instance on aws - anyone done this and know the costs?
[11:26]  * davmor2 walks over and hugs czajkowski mostly cause if I have to die I want to annoy her one more time, covered in blood and me a dead weight clinging to her :D
[11:27] <czajkowski> aww missed you too davmor2
[11:27] <MooDoo> suresht: :D/me hugs czajkowski and davmor2
[11:27] <MooDoo> oops
[11:27]  * MooDoo hugs czajkowski and davmor2 
[11:27] <davmor2> MooDoo: D'oh
[11:27] <czajkowski> there we go happy family
[11:28] <MooDoo> czajkowski: prod, just coz i've missed you :)
[11:29] <MooDoo> davmor2: hows it going me ole china?
[11:29] <selinuxium> Where is the love, eh?
[11:30] <czajkowski> selinuxium: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpYeekQkAdc
[11:30] <davmor2> MooDoo: sound as a round pound on the ground
[11:30] <davmor2> MooDoo: you?
[11:30] <MooDoo> selinuxium: it's right here baby :) [said in austin powers voice]
[11:30] <selinuxium> czajkowski, :)
[11:31] <MooDoo> davmor2: rockin lad ;)
[11:31] <selinuxium> MooDoo, czajkowski: Mwah!
[11:31] <andylockran> lovely conversation :D
[11:31] <DJones> Ugh, in a conference call with software suppliers who have just made a big play on the fact that their software is "point & click"
[11:31]  * czajkowski is looking forward to friday for MRI 
[11:32] <czajkowski> not bad request sent off 2 weeks ago, apoinment in farnham on Friday
[11:32] <davmor2> selinuxium: have you not figured out yet we love to hate each other, but if anyone else tries woe betide them!
[11:32] <MooDoo> davmor2: your right it's love hate, i love czajkowski she hates me ;)
[11:33] <selinuxium> lol
[11:34] <czajkowski> :)
[11:34] <MooDoo> :D
[11:48] <oimon> yay my aspire revo just arrived
[11:48] <brobostigon> :)
[11:49] <gord> new revo or old revo?
[11:50] <gord> (is it white or black)
[11:50] <oimon> gord: black
[11:50] <oimon> D3700
[11:50] <oimon> R3700
[11:51] <gord> ah, that one looked a bit expensive for me
[11:51] <oimon> £185
[11:51] <oimon> i say "my" revo, but i got it for work purposes
[11:51] <oimon> to run firefox on a display screen
[11:52] <gord> ah no that's not the one i was thinking of, didn't know they did the more standard ones in black
[11:53] <oimon> sweet, they even gave me a keyboard
[11:53] <oimon> and a copy of webroot software :S
[11:53] <gord> the most useful keyboard in the world (tm)
[11:54] <czajkowski> popey: where is the hash key on a mac :s
[11:54] <MooDoo> czajkowski: alt + 3
[11:54] <czajkowski> ohh
[11:54] <czajkowski> stupid keyboard
[11:55] <czajkowski> thanks MooDoo
[11:55] <MooDoo> czajkowski: welcome
[11:55] <davmor2> MooDoo: that was useful and everything what have you done with the real MooDoo?
[11:56] <MooDoo> davmor2: creeping to czajkowski in the hope she'll forget i owe her a beer for the rugby thumping she gave me
[11:56] <MooDoo> davmor2: well ireland gave englad
[11:57] <davmor2> MooDoo: now I understand how czajkowski put her back out celebrating the fact that you owed her a drink
[11:57] <MooDoo> davmor2: glad she's miles away ;)
[12:11] <oimon> this revo seems to come with linpus linux: doesn't accept "special characters" in the password...nice start
[12:15] <popey> hehe
[12:15] <gord> yeah no, linpus doesn't last long on anyones revo ;)
[12:15] <popey> susprising given it originates from china iirc
[12:15] <popey> which revo is it oimon ?
[12:15] <oimon> r3700
[12:15] <popey> the dual core jobbie, nice
[12:15] <popey> black isnt it?
[12:15] <oimon> popey: will lucid be OK on it, or would u put natty on?
[12:16] <popey> both should be fine
[12:16] <popey> my mum had lucid on hers
[12:16] <gord> the one i have upstairs is dual core but the same case as my single core one, was kinda weird, was expecting single core
[12:16] <gord> i have maverick on mine
[12:16] <oimon> it's for a display screen - i will turn on security updates but nothing else
[12:17] <oimon> linpus using gnome 2.20 , looks like the xandros eee pc setup
[12:17] <andylockran> anyone else feeling really happy!
[12:17] <andylockran> talk about mixed environment computing - running 4 screens with 3 computers + Synergy FTW!
[12:17] <oimon> so there's no prob with the nvidia card or wireless with lucid? then lucid it is
[12:17] <andylockran> OSX, ubuntu & win7
[12:18] <oimon> no just need to figure out firefox and kiosk mode
[12:18] <stuphi> . /usr/bin/byobu-reconnect-sockets
[12:20] <gord> decided to re-connect my landline phone for some reason, instantly started getting automated spamvertisements on it :(
[12:21] <oimon> gord: i hate those
[12:21] <oimon> although if you want to shout at someone i think they say press 0 to talk to operator
[12:21] <oimon> except for one the other day which said press # to unsubscribe :(
[12:22] <gord> i have never let one get past "Please do not ha"
[12:22] <oimon> then who do you rant at?
[12:22] <oimon> the dog?
[12:23] <oimon> pent-up frustration is a killer :P
[12:23] <oimon> that's why i go to watch football
[12:25] <gord> i work in open source, if i let things get at me - i would of quit years ago ;)
[12:27] <oimon> or forked..
[13:28] <oimon> popey: check the specs of this monitor - better than the LG one and cheaper http://uk.insight.com/en-gb/productinfo/monitors/SAMQB2240
[13:28] <AlanBell> o/ sladen
[13:29] <popey> thats sweet
[13:29] <AlanBell> sladen: what is the status of the onboard updates? I know upstream are working on more theme support, not sure what happened to the update for Natty?
[13:46] <sladen> AlanBell: nothing
[13:46] <sladen> AlanBell: (in the end)
[13:47] <sladen> AlanBell: but at UDS there was a great desire to polish this for O
[13:59] <BigRedS> q
[14:05] <daubers_> "onboard updates"?
[14:05] <MartijnVdS> daubers: onboard = on-screen keyboard
[14:05] <daubers> Ah, ok
[14:08] <PalaPad> Afternoon all
[14:08] <krimzon2> will 12.04 be a penguin?
[14:09] <MartijnVdS> Pokey Penguin
[14:09] <krimzon2> please let that be true!
[14:09] <oimon> http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/releases.ubuntu.com :(
[14:10] <MartijnVdS> oimon: try <countrycode>.releases.ubuntu.nl
[14:10] <MartijnVdS> oimon: http://nl.releases.ubuntu.com/ is still up
[14:11] <oimon> MartijnVdS: according to the downforev... or your browser?
[14:11] <oimon> downfor.. shows up & down
[14:11] <oimon> depending on refresh
[14:11] <oimon> works now :D was down for 5-10 mins
[14:19] <oimon> gord: http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2011/may/17/computing-opensource?CMP=twt_gu
[14:24] <BigRedS> xs aren't as skinny as they used to be :(
[14:25] <gord> oimon, yup saw that this morning
[14:25] <oimon> i also saw the tour of the ISS space station on youtube, which is full of thinkpads
[14:26] <BigRedS> haha
[14:26] <BigRedS> I was bemused by the macbook comment at fosdem
[14:26] <BigRedS> as far as I was concerned, I was at a thinkpad owners' convention
[14:31] <oimon> they are an antidote to poncy laptops
[14:32] <gord> eh, macs have their place, thinkpads are made for people that travel more though i feel
[14:34] <MartijnVdS> Thinkpads are made to be used in areas where there's a good chance of it being driven over by a tank.
[14:34] <oimon> i was thinking more of machines with led strips and glowing blue media bars, but we can include macs if you insist :D
[14:37] <gord> some thinkpads have a red LED in the i
[14:37] <oimon> i noticed that the other day on a thinkpad edge. i was shocked
[14:38] <popey> hehe
[14:38] <oimon> nothing a sharp pin can't fix
[14:38] <PalaPad> <3's his thinkpad
[14:38] <gord> its fine, honestly, when i'm sitting around with people who all have macs, the glowing apple logos really bother me, but some people are really creative with them
[14:38] <oimon> i used to have a thinkpad 600E which cost £5000 brand new
[14:40] <popey> AlanBell: i7-920 is what your server has isnt it?
[14:40]  * popey just got some spam from RabidSwitch offering me the "opportunity" to rent one from them for 69 quid a month, 49 setup fee
[14:40] <popey> 10TB bandwidth :S
[14:42] <ali1234> anyone got the link to the bug where natty boot freezes until something generates in interupt? (like moving the mouse)
[14:42] <BigRedS> Hm. I keep having things I've alt-tabbed to be not-in-focus, presumably 'cause the mouse isn't over it, but only *sometimes*
[14:43] <ali1234> is it firefox?
[14:43] <ali1234> if so it is a bug
[14:43] <BigRedS> It's not *just* firefox, which is puzzling me
[14:43] <ali1234> it can probably affect other things too i guess
[14:43] <ali1234> it's a bug on the focus stealing code
[14:43] <BigRedS> Thunderbird does it, which is understandable, but so does terminator
[14:43] <BigRedS> and, I think, Xterm
[14:43] <ali1234> if you switch to an app like firefox while it's got the blue ticker
[14:43] <ali1234> it won't accept input sometimes
[14:44] <ali1234> the only way to make it come back is to minimize it and restore it
[14:44] <BigRedS> Nah, if I've firefox full-screened and in focus, with an xterm behind it, when I alt-tab to the xterm it's unfocused but above firefox
[14:44] <BigRedS> (unless my mouse happens to be where the xterm is)
[14:44] <ali1234> which is quite a challenge if you have it maximized since unfocussed windows have the window controls hidden
[14:44] <popey> http://www.michaelv.org/ sweet
[14:45] <ali1234> popey: KDE4 simulator?
[14:45] <popey> Win 3.1
[14:45] <ali1234> it's much faster than unity :/
[14:45] <popey> hah
[14:45] <ali1234> even if slow slow firefox
[14:45] <popey> best response ever :)
[14:46] <oimon> meh..i prefer  http://bellard.org/jslinux/
[14:46] <ali1234> "hey yeah we're gonna use 3d acceleration to make the fastest desktop ever" "what do you mean, 3d acceleration on linux is crap?"
[14:48] <ali1234> i don't understand how someone can make a whole simulation of program manager and it's really fast, yet launchpad.net takes 30 seconds to render pages
[14:48] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: all client-side vs all server-side
[14:49] <ali1234> this program thing is all server side?
[14:49] <MartijnVdS> no
[14:49] <MartijnVdS> it's all client-side
[14:49] <MartijnVdS> launchpad is server-side
[14:49] <ali1234> launchpad.net is all client side
[14:49] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: no, it's not.
[14:49] <MartijnVdS> well, the rendering is, but the servers are slow :)
[14:49] <ali1234> if it's all server side why does it make firefox use 100% cpu and freeze for 30 seconds?
[14:50] <ali1234> specifically the thing that does this is the list of subscribed users
[14:50] <ali1234> when it gets repainted
[14:50] <ali1234> by the client side javascript
[14:50] <MartijnVdS> sure, it contains client-side javascript
[14:50] <MartijnVdS> but if it's waiting for the server to update a list.. that's the bottleneck
[14:50] <ali1234> it's not waiting
[14:50] <ali1234> it's using 100% CPU
[14:50] <MartijnVdS> busy-waiting
[14:51] <ali1234> it's not even busywaiting
[14:51] <MartijnVdS> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Busy_waiting
[14:51] <ali1234> you can watch it paint each indivisual user in the list
[14:51] <MartijnVdS> it's actually using that CPU time to render bits?
[14:51] <MartijnVdS> eww
[14:51] <ali1234> i don't knwo what it is doing
[14:51] <ali1234> but it does it incredibly slowly
[14:52] <popey> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2011-May/033194.html
[14:52] <ali1234> bug 605567
[14:52] <popey> opinions?
[14:53] <kazade> popey, good idea
[14:53] <ali1234> popey:  is it the installer tracking thing? my firefox is frozen cos i tried to go on launchpad :/
[14:53] <kazade> ali1234, it is
[14:53] <ali1234> ok, my opinion on that is it's a good idea but only if it's done right
[14:53] <popey> yes it is
[14:54] <ali1234> specifically you have to ensure that the user actually logged into a desktop that worked before sending confirmation
[14:54] <ali1234> if you just send a token on first boot you won't find all the cases where it booted up to a black screen and user could not log in
[14:54] <ali1234> which is a pretty common occurence it seems
[14:54] <popey> yeah, i agree
[14:55] <PalaPad> Anyone with a website who is based in the EU have you audited your cookies/LSOs to check you are compliant with new law coming into effect om May 26th?
[14:55] <ali1234> also you should ask the user at start of installation, not have some hidden bootloader option to disable it, that's dumb
[14:56] <popey> be nice if it tied in with the hardware database thing they're planning
[14:56] <popey> although if you can run that then you know the machine is okay
[14:56] <ali1234> also it should do a count of how many people switch the buttons on to the right
[14:56] <popey> :)
[14:57] <popey> and a package list, and their IP and their credit card details
[14:57] <ali1234> btw what are "product screenshots"
[14:57] <ali1234> you mean like screenshots on ubuntu.com?
[14:57] <gord> if we can get their webcams to take a photo, we will be complete
[14:58] <popey> no, third party vendors
[14:58] <popey> like that wifi scanner I mentioned
[14:58] <oimon> pro puppet book got delayed again :(
[14:58] <popey> gord: gps and 3g details too
[14:58] <ali1234> you know i have a theory
[14:58] <oimon> popey: surely vendors take screenshots of default OOTB environment
[14:58] <ali1234> but i don't think you'll like it
[14:58] <popey> also iwlist scan, passed through skyhook
[14:58] <gord> if the user has a fingerprint reader \o/
[14:58] <oimon> so that everybody recognises it
[14:58] <ali1234> so i might save it for the blog
[14:58] <popey> heh
[14:58] <popey> feel free
[14:59] <gord> i have always thought it would be nice to have something akin to the test pilot stuff firefox does but for unity
[14:59] <oimon> ali1234: i read your blog the other day, i think we have something in common
[14:59] <ali1234> that's odd because i don't have a blog :)
[15:00] <ali1234> i know my website runs drupal but i don't put rants and stuff on it
[15:00] <oimon> must have been someone else...hmm
[15:00] <popey> your alter ego has one though, surely?
[15:00] <ali1234> i probably should do though i mean it would probably increase my adsense revenue
[15:00] <oimon> i wonder who it was
[15:01] <oimon> ali1234: what's ur website?
[15:02] <ali1234> http://al.robotfuzz.com/
[15:02] <ali1234> btw PalaPad i have not audited my cookies
[15:02] <ali1234> i don't think it sets any unless you login though, which you are not allowed to do
[15:02] <ali1234> google adsense might set some, idk, that's out of my control
[15:03] <hamitron> anyone here got any recommendations for a book to learn GPU assembly language?
[15:04] <ali1234> use opencl
[15:04] <ali1234> don't buy a book
[15:04] <ali1234> just learn it
[15:04] <PalaPad> Ali, I suggest you read ICO advice on this, even if it is 3rd party like adsense it is still your responsibility under law to obtain consent
[15:04] <hamitron> k
[15:04] <ali1234> PalaPad: and what will happen to me if i don;'t?
[15:06] <BigRedS> ali1234: well, that's the bit that's not been tested yet :)
[15:38] <ali1234> ooo an update for flash
[15:38] <ali1234> maybe it fixes the white rectangles?
[15:38]  * popey chooses not to hold his breath
[15:39] <ali1234> i think it's a firefox bug myself
[15:39] <popey> although whilst watching a programme on telly about it, I managed to hold my breath for 60 seconds
[15:39] <popey> quite poor really
[15:40] <ali1234> no unity updates :/
[15:40] <ali1234> is there going to be a ppa for unity+1?
[15:40] <ali1234> cos i don't really want to install oneiric
[15:42] <popey> http://gigaom.com/cloud/hp-pairs-with-nvidia-for-new-gpu-servers
[15:42] <popey> one for Azelphur :)
[15:42] <davmor2> ali1234: oneiric will currently just be natty plus imports and highly broken and possibly completely incompatible with natty too
[15:42] <ali1234> i know
[15:42] <ali1234> that's why i don't want to install it
[15:42] <ali1234> but i want unity "fixes" that won't be backported to natty
[15:43] <davmor2> ali1234: unity will be in the same position though I would image there is lots going on with it according to the videos of UDS and the talks I had with various team members
[15:43] <ali1234> yes "a lot going on" - none of which will be available in the natty version
[15:43] <ali1234> hence why i would like a ppa
[15:44] <X3N> I'm sure the source is available
[15:45] <X3N> well, can never garantee that these days but yeah, it's probably available
[15:45] <ali1234> i don't have time to hunt dependencies
[15:46] <ali1234> i need an official ppa that ican report bugs against
[15:46] <X3N> then you probably shouldn't be using unoffical release
[15:46] <ali1234> you're not listening
[15:46] <ali1234> i don't want to use anything unnoficial, i want a ppa
[15:46] <ali1234> that's the whole point
[15:46] <ali1234> i do not want touse oneiric until it's at least alpha
[15:47] <ali1234> but by the time that happens it will be too late to do anything about problems in unity (again)
[15:48] <popey> Yup, makes total sense
[15:48] <ali1234> this is a problem i hit all the time
[15:48] <popey> Can't see it happening officially though
[15:48] <BigRedS> 123
[15:48] <oimon> 456
[15:48] <popey> 789
[15:49] <ali1234> report bugs against stable version: "sorry, we only accept bugs against trunk"
[15:49] <oimon> sesame street?
[15:49] <ali1234> report bugs against trunk: "well it's not finished, what do you expect?"
[15:49] <BigRedS> hah, whoops
[15:49] <BigRedS> nah, line number
[15:50] <BigRedS> heh, yeah, terminator's a bit confused as to the layout of my windows
[15:56] <BigRedS> 208
[15:56] <BigRedS> gah!
[15:57] <ali1234> lol
[15:57] <BigRedS> really, I should use this as an incentive to stop making stupid syntax errors
[15:57] <ali1234> i keep getting this with pidgin and firefox when firefox refuses focus
[15:57] <BigRedS> or, perhaps, an opportunity to close terminator and start again
[15:57] <ali1234> when ever i type in firefox usually goes to pidgin
[15:57] <BigRedS> haha
[15:57] <ali1234> haven't leaked any passwords yet luckily
[15:58] <dwatkins> BigRedS: I'm curious, why choose Terminator as a terminal emulator?
[15:58] <BigRedS> nah, when I'm in the bottom pane of terminator, if I go alt+up, rather than going up one, it goes to the top-right, where I have irssi
[15:58] <ali1234> maybe the updated firefox that just got installed will fix it
[15:58] <hamitron> ali1234: I've just had someone ranting on at me about the same things in unity that annoy you
[15:58] <BigRedS> dwatkins: so I can have a few panes
[15:58] <hamitron> :/
[15:58] <ali1234> hamitron: the thing is it's not the people ranting that they need to worry about
[15:58] <dwatkins> BigRedS: as I see, I thought gnome-terminal did that, or others, and then there's GNU Screen, obv.
[15:59] <gord> ali1234, the problem being that gnome3 lands this cycle, hard to make a ppa for unity that builds for natty without bringing in gnome 3 (and the same problems the gnome 3 ppa has on natty)
[15:59] <ali1234> it's the people who don't rant, and just delete ubuntu and use something else
[15:59] <hamitron> yeh
[15:59] <BigRedS> dwatkins: I don't think g-t does it, and screen doesn't do it how I want it to :)
[15:59] <ali1234> gord: yeah i figured that might be a problem
[15:59]  * hamitron notes not to wory about ali1234
[15:59] <hamitron> ;)
[15:59] <hamitron> worry*
[15:59] <dwatkins> ali1234: I was surprised they chose Unity so soon, it doesn't seem to be ready for release, imho
[16:00] <hamitron> I feel they had to
[16:00] <BigRedS> I figured it was probably as an incentive to get it going quickly
[16:00] <BigRedS> pick a not-that-far-away release date
[16:00] <ali1234> like i keep saying, it didn't work for empathy
[16:00] <ali1234> it's still not ready for use after what, 3? 4? cycles now?
[16:00] <hamitron> unity this time, gnome3 next time, stable the time after that
[16:04] <X3N> ali1234: why can't you use ubuntu+1 then?
[16:04] <stetho> I'm having a problem setting up an Ubuntu server as a router between two LANs (192.168.55.0 and 192.168.56.0). I've done the /proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_forward = 1 and the sysctl stuff but I still can't get any further than pinging the other networks interface on the on the ubuntu box (eg, 192.168.55.x can ping 192.168.56.253 but not 192.168.56.x) Anyone suggest what I might have missed?
[16:04] <ali1234> because it's going to be buggy as hell for the next 4 months?
[16:04] <ali1234> i tried to use natty in alpha, that was fun
[16:04] <ali1234> it crashed more often than windows me
[16:05] <ali1234> that's when it would even boot
[16:05] <X3N> use a vm?
[16:05] <ali1234> heh
[16:05] <X3N> or chroot
[16:05] <ali1234> i will do
[16:05] <ali1234> should get my 16GB by the end of the week then i can run lots of VMs
[16:05] <ali1234> of course it will probably mess up with accelerated xorg drivers
[16:06] <ali1234> that's other fun thing about using +1
[16:06] <ali1234> video drivers never work until about 1 month before release
[16:06] <ali1234> i'm not sure how people actually test it
[16:06] <ali1234> that probably gors a long way to explain why unity is so buggy
[16:06] <ali1234> nobody could even run it until the 3d drivers were fixed
[16:07] <BigRedS> yeah, I did wonder about that
[16:07] <BigRedS> when suddenly everyone went "I can use unity! Woo!" and I thought it'd been in testing for months
[16:07] <ali1234> the trouble with using a vm though is it's not the same as really using it
[16:07] <ali1234> testing it for 10 minutes just isn't good enough
[16:07] <BigRedS> no, not at all
[16:08] <ali1234> i needed to use it for 2 weeks before i could even have an opinion beyond "this sucks"
[16:08] <BigRedS> And that hardware's only found in other imaginary computers
[16:08] <X3N> you're better off with a chroot then
[16:08] <ali1234> a chroot has all the same problems
[16:08] <BigRedS> it's at least on genuine hardware
[16:09] <X3N> what problems does a chroot have?
[16:09] <ali1234> the chroot won't have all my software and files in it
[16:09] <ali1234> i'll have to run it manually after every reboot
[16:11] <X3N> nothing a quick script or two wouldn't solve
[16:11] <ali1234> why doesn't firefox use notifications btw?
[16:11] <ali1234> it still pops up that thing in the bottom left corner
[16:12] <ali1234> i mean bottom right
[16:14] <popey> 16:06:22 < ali1234> i'm not sure how people actually test it
[16:14] <popey> most developers use intel gfx I suspect
[16:14] <popey> so aren't hit by many of the stupid nvidia/ati issues
[16:14] <ali1234> so in other words they only test it on one hardware configuration that hardly anyone uses
[16:14] <popey> well for natty that's certainly common
[16:14] <ali1234> and then they wonder why everyone says it's really buggy
[16:15] <popey> nobody seemed to care about the fact that nvidia was broken for most of that cycle
[16:15] <ali1234> quite a few people cared
[16:15] <popey> well, I'm looking at canonical
[16:15] <ali1234> unfortunately nobody could do anything about it
[16:15] <ali1234> it's not like it's just that cycle as well
[16:15] <ali1234> nvidia breaks every single time, so does ati
[16:16] <ali1234> quite often intel does too
[16:16] <popey> it was worse this time
[16:16] <X3N> a lot of people do use intel graphics though
[16:16] <popey> longer period
[16:16] <ali1234> also what happened to "unity will work on nouveau so it doesn't matter"
[16:17] <oimon> popey: however some people (e.g. mpt) hadn't run unity until very late in the process
[16:18] <popey> yup, confirming my point
[16:19] <hamitron> did anything major change from 10.04 to 10.10?
[16:19] <ali1234> not really no
[16:20] <ali1234> pulseaudio started mostly working
[16:20] <ali1234> that's another good example of putting things in before they are ready, that also took 3 or 4 cycles before it actually worked properly
[16:20] <ali1234> and it's still not quite there
[16:20] <hamitron> I've sometimes thought it would be better to not have a release 6 months after the LTS release
[16:21] <ali1234> why?
[16:21] <popey> the so called "cowboy release"
[16:21] <hamitron> spend a full year making big changes to polish for the next LTS
[16:21] <BigRedS> ah, six months before an LTS, then?
[16:21] <hamitron> no
[16:21] <ali1234> natty is the cowboy release :/
[16:22] <ali1234> 10.10 was an improvement over 10.04
[16:22] <hamitron> release the LTS, spend a year making big changes, one after that is small tweaks, next LTS has super support
[16:22] <hamitron> :)
[16:22] <DJones> I'd say 11.04 was probably the best time to introduce unity though, halfway between LTS versions, couldn't change at LTS because of the major change, LTS+1 is probably too short notice, LTS+2 makes sense to change, LTS+3 to improve & solve problems still outstanding, then introduce into next LTS
[16:22] <ali1234> they have spent a year making big changes
[16:22] <ali1234> it's not like they put unity in 10.10
[16:23] <hamitron> I'd have cancelled 10.10, to make 11.04 better
[16:23] <ali1234> how would that work?
[16:23] <hamitron> put the improvements from 10.10 into 10.04
[16:23] <ali1234> that makes no sense
[16:23] <hamitron> rather than make a short support release
[16:24] <hamitron> well
[16:24] <ali1234> how would that improve 11.04?
[16:24] <hamitron> I don't see a point to the short term support release, after the lts
[16:24] <ali1234> the point is not many people want to use the old out of date stuff in a LTS
[16:25] <ali1234> largely because there's only bugfix support
[16:25] <hamitron> it would have moved focus away from releasing another distro, allowing full focus for the big changes
[16:25] <DJones> hamitron: People like Shiny, New.... etc
[16:25] <BigRedS> and if the improvements ahve gone into 10.10, they've missed 10.04...
[16:25] <ali1234> if you need some new feature, you don't get any support
[16:25] <hamitron> DJones: they have shiny new in unity ;)
[16:26] <DJones> Yep, but there's always shiny, new in every release
[16:26] <ali1234> what they should actually do is keep gnome classic until after the next LTS
[16:26] <ali1234> by then, unity might actually be ready
[16:27] <BigRedS> ali1234: if they really want peopel to switch to unity, they wont
[16:27] <hamitron> ali1234: that may have been better
[16:27] <ali1234> BigRedS: if they really want people to switch to unity, how about fixing the bugs?
[16:27] <BigRedS> if unity's made to look like a replacement - i.e. no more gnome, here's unity - people are way more likely to treat it as such
[16:27] <BigRedS> rather than as an alternative
[16:27] <BigRedS> yeah, what *should* have happened, IMO, is not releasing unity until 11.10
[16:27] <ali1234> it won't be ready by 11.10
[16:28] <BigRedS> but we're getting towards the release-it-when-its-ready model that way, and one thing people love about Ubuntu is it's not that
[16:28] <ali1234> it might be ready by 12.04
[16:28] <ali1234> *maybe*
[16:28] <kazade> I think we really need a continuous testing release..
[16:28] <BigRedS> It's not that broken, IME. It's just got a bunch of niggles
[16:28] <ali1234> when it finally is ready then classic gnome should still be an option for one more LTS
[16:28] <BigRedS> It reminds me of gnome 2.x from a few years back
[16:28] <hamitron> and it wouldn't be a good idea putting something weird and wacky, untested, in a LTS :/
[16:28] <BigRedS> well, from before ubuntu finished it, really :)
[16:29] <ali1234> the point is there's no use saying "they should have done..."
[16:29] <ali1234> we are where we are
[16:29] <hamitron> I'd say "we should do....."
[16:29] <ali1234> the correct thing to do *now* is to keep classic in 12.04
[16:29] <hamitron> ;)
[16:29] <ali1234> drop it in 12.10
[16:30] <hamitron> the only problem with that, is it is delaying inovation by 2 years
[16:30] <ali1234> it's not delaying anything
[16:30] <hamitron> the first LTS with unity would be 2014
[16:30] <hamitron> :/
[16:30] <ali1234> if "innovation" has to be forced it's not worth it
[16:30] <ali1234> hamitron: you're not listening
[16:30] <ali1234> why does nobody ever listen?
[16:31] <hamitron> I agree with you ali1234
[16:31] <ali1234> unity is in 11.04
[16:31] <hamitron> :)
[16:31] <ali1234> it will be in 11.10
[16:31] <ali1234> and it will be in 12.04
[16:31] <hamitron> oh, so you mean leave a choice in 12.04?
[16:31] <ali1234> the correct thing is to keep classic in 11.10 and 12.04 AS WELL
[16:31] <hamitron> yeh
[16:31] <ali1234> at 12.04 unity might actually be good enough to compete on it's own merits
[16:31] <hamitron> with unity as default?
[16:31] <ali1234> sure, as default, i don't care
[16:32] <BigRedS> ali1234: but if you keep the choice there, people won't use unity, unit wont be properly tested, and unity wont be fixed
[16:32] <ali1234> ha
[16:33] <ali1234> so you admit that, given the choice, people don't want to use unity?
[16:33] <ali1234> but you don't see this as a problem?
[16:33] <BigRedS> that's the problem with not saying "Bam. Herein you don't use Gnome, you use unity"
[16:33] <hamitron> the idea is to have "freedom" and "choice" ;)
[16:33] <BigRedS> ali1234: of course, I'm still using Gnome 2.x on systmems where I need to be productive
[16:33] <BigRedS> My laptop's been Debian for years, because _every_ ubuntu upgrade breaks something subtly
[16:34] <ali1234> the argument that you have to force people to use something to get it tested and fixed has been shown to be false so many times now
[16:34] <BigRedS> hamitron: you'd still have that - there's nothing stopping people installing gnome 2.x on any future version than there is them installing IceWM or whatever on current versions
[16:34] <ali1234> look at empathy, look at pulse
[16:34] <ali1234> people just remove them
[16:34] <ali1234> because they don't work properly
[16:35] <ali1234> pulseaudio is just about getting to the point where it should actually be used
[16:35] <BigRedS> surely if they'd just remove them, then they'd just not use them were they shipped as the default alternative
[16:35] <BigRedS> and they may as well not be there at all
[16:35] <ali1234> i agree
[16:35] <popey> some people remove it
[16:35] <popey> not all
[16:35] <popey> some battle on
[16:35] <ali1234> they may as well not be there, until they are ready
[16:35] <BigRedS> I'd not use unity through choice, I'm quite happy with gnome 2.x
[16:35] <ali1234> forcing people to beta test them for you doesn't work
[16:36] <BigRedS> but, given that ubuntu's dropping gnome 2.x and work stipulate ubuntu, it makes sense that I use unity now
[16:36] <ali1234> if it did pulse would have been fixed a year and a half ago
[16:36] <hamitron> popey the warrior
[16:36] <hamitron> :)
[16:37] <ali1234> and it's especially bad given what i pointed out earlier
[16:37] <BigRedS> incidentally, I'm running gnome3 at home and that's waaaaaay more infuriating than ubuntu
[16:37] <BigRedS> s/ubuntu/unity/
[16:37] <BigRedS> ruddy ^u based muscle memory
[16:37] <hamitron> to be fair to ubuntu, there is lts for those that don't want to test new.....
[16:37] <ali1234> you stick pulse into the distro to get people to test it, but then nobody cares about bugs reports against stable anyway
[16:37] <ali1234> so what's the point?
[16:38] <BigRedS> hamitron: but LTS *is* the new when it's released
[16:38] <BigRedS> they just get it less frequently
[16:38] <ali1234> hamitron: 10.04 has pulse, but it's an ancient version and is even worse than what's in 10.10, and nobody is interested in fixing bugs in it unless they are security bugs
[16:38] <oimon> revo wireless isn't working for me - popey is mrs popey using wireless on hers
[16:38] <hamitron> BigRedS: yeh, I leave it 6 months before getting it :)
[16:38] <popey> oimon: ya, it's configured and working
[16:39] <popey> oimon: 05:00.0 Ethernet controller: Atheros Communications Inc. AR5001 Wireless Network Adapter (rev 01)
[16:39] <popey> its one of them
[16:39] <hamitron> ali1234: it is a shame if it is so much better :/
[16:40] <oimon> popey: oh..i have somewhat different wifi
[16:40] <ali1234> hamitron: 10.10 is the first version of pulse that doesn't stutter and use massive amounts of CPU constantly
[16:40] <ali1234> the version in 10.10 that is
[16:40] <popey> oimon: mine isnt the 3700
[16:40] <oimon> ah
[16:40] <oimon> i'll try natty server edition then :D
[16:40] <oimon> maybe slap lxde on it
[16:40] <davmor2> oimon: plugin a cable and use the proposed kernel it has a patch and make sure the bios has it enabled by default
[16:41] <oimon> davmor2: woo thanks
[16:41] <davmor2> oimon: oh hang on that is for the atheros ar5001
[16:42] <davmor2> oimon: if yours is different it might not
[16:42] <hamitron> oimon: I'd use the desktop alternative cd
[16:42] <hamitron> oimon: or lbuntu
[16:43] <hamitron> it is lbuntu?
[16:43] <hamitron> lubuntu
[16:43] <hamitron> !lubuntu
[16:44] <oimon> davmor2: woops just got back from adding propsed :P
[16:44] <oimon> it's the ralink rt3090
[16:44] <davmor2> oimon: the same patch might be in effect then, the current driver is defaulted to off
[16:45] <davmor2> oimon: the patch makes it abide by what the bios sets it as
[16:45] <oimon> bug 541620
[16:49] <oimon> news at 5pm: wireless on ubuntu still sucks
[16:53] <gord> is it really apt to say "still" when talking about software a year old?
[16:53] <ali1234> if it hasn't changed in a year, then yes
[16:54] <ali1234> i find wireless sucks everywhere tbh
[16:54] <oimon> davmor2: well done, you managed to serendipitously fix my problem
[16:55] <davmor2> oimon: I had the same issue but on  the AR5001 chipset so work with the kernel guys to at least get everything up and running
[16:55] <oimon> enabling proposed fixed the problem with the rt3090
[16:55] <BigRedS> my only wifi problems recently seem to have been network-manager problems really
[16:55] <oimon> i think i had already installed modules-wireless beforehand
[16:56] <gord> stupid driver for my wifi chipset doesn't support N :(
[16:56] <gord> sooo still running wired for now
[16:57] <oimon> ugh my wifi just disconnected...bit patchy it seems
[16:57] <oimon> i still haven't found a reliable source of PCI/usb wifi cards
[16:57] <oimon> that are guaranteed with ubuntu...most wikis are out of date and incorrect
[16:58] <davmor2> oimon: Broadcom with the bcm_sta is about as reliable as it gets I think oh and intel
[16:58] <gord> honestly, whenever i shop for hardware i google "<hardwarename> ubuntu" - works out fairly well for me
[16:58] <oimon> intel do pci/usb ones?
[16:59] <oimon> gord: except u need the PCI id since  chipsets vary even for the same model number
[16:59] <davmor2> oimon: they do pci but it's silly money cheaper to get the broadcom one
[16:59] <oimon> davmor2: can you recommend a speicific one?
[16:59] <oimon> for my desktop
[16:59] <popey> i have a good one that I got off amazon oimon
[17:00] <gord> oimon, if it gets down to that, i keep shopping
[17:00] <oimon> i'm all ears
[17:00] <popey> http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0035FVL4G/ref=oss_product
[17:00] <davmor2> oimon: all my usb ones came with the router
[17:00] <popey> tenner :)
[17:00] <popey> and mentioned Ubuntu in the description
[17:01] <oimon> popey: wow, good signal?
[17:01] <popey> never tested the signal
[17:01] <popey> it works in my house
[17:03]  * bigcalm grabs a couple
[17:04] <popey> actually, thinking about it, I should get one for my server
[17:04] <gord> wish i got higher speeds on my ethernet over power thing, i mean, it works okay for my revo upstairs, but suuucks for HD content
[17:04] <popey> rather than use ethernet over power
[17:05] <oimon> this one seems to have gained OOTB ubuntu more recently: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Edimax-EW-7711UAN-150mbs-Wireless-Adapter/dp/B001KOTDDU/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top
[17:05] <oimon> i like a high gain one
[17:05] <gord> one day we'll tell our kids about how hard just getting two machines to talk to each other in different rooms was, they won't believe us
[17:06] <DJones> popey: Have you seen this ethernet over power up to 500 Mbps http://www.netgear.co.uk/home/products/powerline-and-coax/high-performance/XAVB5001.aspx
[17:06] <popey> heh
[17:06] <popey> "up to"
[17:06] <popey> like ADSL "up to" 8Mb
[17:07] <davmor2> oimon: I have an edimax it is okay it has a broadcom chip in it though
[17:07] <DJones> ~56Kbs then :)
[17:07] <gord> i think mine is "up to" 100mb, i get around 8mb
[17:09] <DJones> I wonder how often people get higher speeds than the "up to" quoted by isp's
[17:09] <hamitron> mine is "upto 8mbit" and I get 0.7mbit.... so stop complaining
[17:09] <hamitron> ;/
[17:09] <popey> erk
[17:10] <DJones> hamitron: Sounds like you need to feed the carrier pidgeon a bit more often
[17:10]  * popey hides his 3.7MB/s
[17:10] <hamitron> DJones: I think someone has shot it
[17:11] <hamitron> ;)
[17:11] <DJones> hamitron: Lead weights will weigh it down
[17:11] <hamitron> tbh, I am happy with my speed
[17:11] <hamitron> :/
[17:12] <hamitron> just think "wtf" when I read some of teh speeds some are quoting or complaining about
[17:12] <hamitron> then realise why people don't worry about filling webpages with loads of media and clutter, slowing everything down
[17:13] <gord> hamitron, i'm talking about my internal ethernet here :)
[17:13] <hamitron> ah
[17:13] <hamitron> that makes me feel better
[17:13] <hamitron> :D
[17:13]  * hamitron has 1gbit
[17:13] <hamitron> ;)
[17:13] <popey> did someone say they have a revo running natty?
[17:13] <gord> i use gigabit where it counts :)
[17:14] <gord> popey, not tried with mine yet, but they should just work right?
[17:14]  * popey upgrades
[17:17] <gord> something i learnt today, uk vending machines seem to accept 10 florints as 10p. i should use this knowledge to become super rich.
[17:21] <popey> wonder if an ssd in a revo would make it fly more
[17:21] <MartijnVdS> maybe through a window :P
[17:21] <DJones> gord: Is that Aruban Florin's? SOunds a bad idea in that case, 10 of those is showing as being worth £3.43
[17:21] <popey> more ram wouldnt hurt too
[17:21] <bigcalm> Hummz
[17:22] <bigcalm> Still using mine as a server
[17:22] <popey> mine is basically idle
[17:22] <skybinary> hello ubuntu-uk :)
[17:22] <bigcalm> Seems to work ok with 2gb
[17:22] <gord> DJones, 1 Hungarian forint = 0.00326042758 British pounds
[17:22] <bigcalm> Hello
[17:23] <DJones> gord: No worries, was looking at a different country on my exchange list
[17:23] <gord> using my revo as a xbmc install with no local content, so it basically never hits the drive once everythings loaded, seems fine to me
[17:23] <skybinary> hi I installed 11.04, different is'nt it
[17:23] <gord> yup
[17:23] <bigcalm> popey: if your revo is idle, what are your Viglen MPC-Ls doing?
[17:24] <popey> in a drawer
[17:24] <MartijnVdS> even more idle
[17:24] <bigcalm> Great ideas, shame that tech moves on so quickly and cheaply
[17:25] <popey> I honestly can't think of a use for my viglen
[17:26] <popey> I clearly lack imagination
[17:26]  * skybinary searches google for viglen
[17:26] <brobostigon> mpc-l*
[17:27] <bigcalm> popey: One of my 2 are living at my parents' place as a simple file server
[17:27] <popey> ahh
[17:27] <bigcalm> Does that and nothing more. Just about works
[17:27] <popey> :)
[17:27] <popey> samba?
[17:27] <bigcalm> Yep
[17:28] <gord> keep meaning to get some hardware to replace my server, would like a proper RAID NAS and a separate server to do servery things
[17:28]  * popey hugs his HP Microserver
[17:29] <skybinary> awww
[17:29] <skybinary> i think i need to re-install vbox
[17:29] <gord> i'm rather motived right now to get a RAID going, mainly because a drive just died... but spent too much on new laptop
[17:30] <skybinary> it was due for an update before i upgraded to 11.04 any hoo
[17:30] <popey> I have 4x 2TB disks as RAID10 in my microserver
[17:30] <popey> bit overkill
[17:30] <MartijnVdS> there's no kill like overkill
[17:31] <gord> well you say that, but you don't have to deal with "Checking for bad blocks (read-only test):  20.04% done, 5:08:58 elapsed"
[17:31] <popey> heh
[17:32] <czajkowski> angry birds leads to angry people. fact
[17:34] <awilkins> What channel can I go to for ALSA driver developers?
[17:34] <skybinary> help, a terminal keeps popping up speaking every time i close it it re-spawns
[17:34] <awilkins> Aha, #alsa
[17:35] <MartijnVdS> skybinary: speaking?
[17:35] <MartijnVdS> skybinary: what does it say
[17:35] <skybinary> yes
[17:36] <skybinary> MartijnVdS, sounds like 'welcome talker, current desktop environment in unity'
[17:37] <skybinary> MartijnVdS, i set off the 10.10-11.04 upgrade before i left for work
[17:38] <gord> your computer has become sentient. abandon all hope. form the resistance.
[17:38] <skybinary> i just got back and this is my first boot up and out of the blue a terminal opened
[17:38] <MartijnVdS> did you enable assistive technology?
[17:38] <skybinary> omg its the RAPTURE!
[17:38] <MartijnVdS> skybinary: you can disable assistive tech from the login menu, or in your session from the "power" button (top right) -> system settings
[17:39] <skybinary> MartijnVdS, yes i remember seeing that i must have clicked something
[17:39] <skybinary> its quite pretty this unity huh?
[17:40] <shauno> I wonder how many people have assistive tech just because the 'people are keyboards' boot icon is so incredibly vague ;)
[17:40] <bigcalm> Is that what that is?
[17:41] <popey> that doesnt enable assistive on its own
[17:41] <popey> just brings up the menu
[17:41] <skybinary> MartijnVdS, that option is already disabled umm
[17:42] <shauno> really?  never seen that, and I tend to mash the keyboard in an attempt to make the screen go away
[17:42] <skybinary> very pretty
[17:44] <skybinary> i found it in processes 'orca' now to figure out how to stop it and what on earth started it in the 1st place
[17:53] <AlanBell> popey: I think one is a 920, the other is a 980 extreme
[17:53] <AlanBell> skybinary: it is saying "welcome to orca"
[17:54] <davmor2> AlanBell: set orca to blackcountry voice
[17:55] <AlanBell> davmor2: I can do
[17:55] <davmor2> AlanBell: it's funny
[17:55] <AlanBell> I wrote a speech dispatcher config file for openMARY, I am sure I can make it do black country
[17:56] <AlanBell> http://mumble.libertus.co.uk:59125/
[17:56] <skybinary> AlanBell, i figured that out when i looked into processes
[17:56] <AlanBell> play with the voices and settings
[17:56] <skybinary> AlanBell, its wide playground right now
[17:58] <skybinary> is very pretty , upgraded vbox delightfully, bluetooth out-of-the-box, need to see processor and net graphs now, but this is not gnome
[18:00] <skybinary> i have speech-dispatcher in applications of sound preferences
[18:06] <AlanBell> top tip, don't start orca on a commuter train with the laptop volume on full
[18:07] <brobostigon> lol
[18:10] <AlanBell> another top tip (with a bit of name dropping) when you go to a meeting at the cabinet office you can park a boris bike in the treasury building when all the racks in london seem to be full
[18:11] <gord> i'll make not of that for all those meetings i have at the cabinet office
[18:30] <AlanBell> home at last
[18:32]  * brobostigon gets AlanBell a beer.
[18:32] <AlanBell> thanks, I needed one
[18:32] <brobostigon> :) you're welcome.
[18:33]  * brobostigon gets himself one, aswell.
[18:43] <X3N> agh my organs
[18:44] <X3N> far too much coffee today
[18:55] <Azelphur> popey, haha, interesting but nvidia is bad at integer math and that's what I need :p
[18:58] <davmor2> czajkowski: NO IT DOESN'T!!!!!!! angry birds is a very calming influence
[19:00] <shauno> heh, machine translations are pretty funny when they go wrong
[19:02] <shauno> looking at an old icelandic saga; chrome decided to translate the original for me, but translated the main character's name to 'Associated Press'.  which makes for a rather surreal story
[19:02] <davmor2> yeah wednesfield road puts a smile on my face everytime google navigate says it
[19:04] <shauno> "Her mother was Járngerður daughter Associated Press Iron Model Sonar north disrupted."   thanks chrome!
[19:10] <davmor2> shauno: are you trying to say there is something wrong with that sentence?
[19:11] <shauno> it makes almost as much sense as the icelandic :)
[19:15] <jacobw> evening
[19:22] <davmor2> jacobw: morning
[19:25] <ubuntuuk-planet> [Matthew Garrett] Copyright assignment - http://mjg59.livejournal.com/136457.html
[19:25] <jacobw> davmor2: post meridian salutations :P
[19:26] <davmor2> tis always morning on the t'interweb ;)
[19:26] <brobostigon> good evening jacobw
[19:43] <Azelphur> not ubuntu, but having trouble setting the resolution via xrandr. Currently it's sest to using 1600x1200 which my monitor doesn't support. I've ssh'd in and tried "DISPLAY=:0.0 xrandr --output CRT1 --mode 1024x768" it says "xrandr: Configure crtc 0 failed" any ideas?
[19:46] <NET||abuse> wow, i find #ubuntu impossible
[19:47] <brobostigon> it is very busy, and very confusing.
[19:47] <DJones> Nah, its sane as long as you shut your eyes
[19:47] <NET||abuse> :P
[19:47] <brobostigon> or /ignore everyone.
[19:48] <NET||abuse> well i have a theme problem in unity
[19:48] <NET||abuse> every second login i'm getting the nice dark unity theme, every other login though i'm getting some lighter theme with coloured icons(i think oxygen theme)
[19:48] <NET||abuse> and using the appearance dialog has no effect on the current session
[19:49] <NET||abuse> i have this install since 10.04, it's a EeePc 1000h, i installed kde 4 during the 10.10 period, then updaated to 11.04 last week
[19:49] <NET||abuse> since then i've tried pullingout the kde packages (honestly i've no hope of figuring it out or running it smoothly on this ol' netbook)
[19:50] <AlanBell> how do I download stuff from a video camera over firewire to pitivi?
[19:50] <NET||abuse> but i've quite a few packages still in there
[19:50] <Azelphur> anyone? xrandr driving me insane? :P
[19:50] <ali1234> AlanBell: use dvgrab
[19:51] <ali1234> pitivi has no firewire support and never will because it's all gstreamer powered
[19:51] <AlanBell> ok, thanks
[19:51] <Azelphur> oh hey it worked now \o/
[19:51] <Azelphur> same command I did 5 times before only this time it works, fun
[19:51] <NET||abuse> Azelphur, and here i was googling xrandr
[19:51] <ali1234> ati?
[19:52] <Azelphur> ali1234, yea
[19:52] <ali1234> seems like their randr support is about as good as nvidias
[19:52] <Azelphur> :D
[19:52] <AlanBell> ali1234: cool, thanks that worked perfectly
[19:53] <davmor2> Azelphur: is it an nvidia gfx card?
[19:53] <NET||abuse> I want a new laptop so bad :0
[19:53] <Azelphur> davmor2, nope, it's an ati
[19:53] <NET||abuse> i was hmming and hawing about the toshiba R830 vs the Lenovo x220
[19:54] <ali1234> NET||abuse: you should never mix kde/gnome/xfce etc desktop metapackages on ubuntu because this is exactly what happens
[19:54] <NET||abuse> :P ahh, so my problem is self inflicted
[19:54] <ali1234> pick one and stick with it. if you want to change, do a fresh install, otherwise bad things will happen
[19:55] <NET||abuse> yarg :( any chance i can fix this?
[19:55] <NET||abuse> or am i a lost cause?
[19:55] <NET||abuse> i shoulda never touched it ;0
[19:55] <ali1234> you will have to purge all kde packages
[19:55] <NET||abuse> that's fine
[19:55] <ali1234> then probably purge and reinstall ubuntu desktop as well
[19:55] <ali1234> there will probably still be some wrong bits left around
[19:56] <ali1234> especially stuff like bootsplash always gets messed up
[19:56] <ali1234> fixing it will probably take longer than reinstalling
[19:56] <jacobw> the metapackages being a PITA has been a problem for as long as i've been using ubuntu
[19:56] <ali1234> yep
[19:57] <jibadeeha> quite liking the idea of lightdm going into ubuntu 11.10
[19:57] <NET||abuse> Arch!
[19:57] <NET||abuse> :P
[19:57] <NET||abuse> hehe,
[19:59] <NET||abuse> well, i purged everything with "kde" in the name,
[19:59] <NET||abuse> will see if a reboot fixes me :)
[19:59] <ali1234> it probably won't
[20:00] <NET||abuse> if not, i'll just go on about my business for now then
[20:00] <jacobw> rebooting doesn't solve problems, even in windows
[20:00] <NET||abuse> well, maybe just restart gdm
[20:00] <ali1234> you'll still have configuration files that point to kde artwork
[20:00] <NET||abuse> yup, that's true
[20:00] <ali1234> you need to uninstall and then reinstall everything in ubuntu-desktop as well
[20:00] <NET||abuse> weird that it's booting into the other theme every second boot,madness
[20:00] <ali1234> and probably delete half the .files in ~ as well
[20:01] <NET||abuse> i'll see how it's behaving after restart and get to that another day
[20:01] <NET||abuse> i've spent enough time on it tonight
[20:04] <PalaPad> Yeah on way home, absolutely knackered :(
[20:19] <AlanBell> great conversation with my 7 year old
[20:20] <AlanBell> she says the thing with the pictures on is called the computer
[20:20] <AlanBell> the black box is called the monitor
[20:20]  * AlanBell says it is the other way round
[20:20] <ali1234> the black box is called the hard drive
[20:20] <ging> lol
[20:21] <AlanBell> yup
[20:21] <ali1234> every one knows that
[20:21] <AlanBell> but she says it is the monitor
[20:21] <ging> popey's 7 year old can write python
[20:21] <AlanBell> and I lost the argument
[20:21] <mgdm> ging: yeah, I've heard they freelance Django stuff :P
[20:21] <ali1234> outwitted by a 7 year old
[20:22] <d3ngar> Hi there
[20:22] <d3ngar> I was wondering if somebody can help me with an overscaling problem
[20:23] <ging> calgon tablets
[20:23] <d3ngar> When I try to create a manual Modeline, my monitor just goes blank
[20:23] <jacobw> lol
[20:25] <AlanBell> d3ngar: what card, what monitor, what resolution are you shooting for, what modeline are you trying?
[20:26] <d3ngar> Thanks AlanBell: It's a HDMI connection to a weird TV, I'd hope for 720p (which it is on and overscaled) and the card is an ATI x1200
[20:27] <AlanBell> TVs often lie over HDMI about what they can do
[20:27] <AlanBell> loads of them claim to be a 7 inch panel
[20:27] <d3ngar> The last modeline I tried was added through xrandr: 30.35 1216 1248 1360 1392 690 705 709 725 interlace
[20:27] <d3ngar> Yes
[20:27] <d3ngar> That's exactly my bastard
[20:28] <d3ngar> 7inch panel
[20:28] <mgdm> AlanBell: aye, mine does that, I've no idea why
[20:28] <mgdm> both the Samsung monitor and the Sony telly, in fact
[20:28] <d3ngar> :D
[20:29] <MartijnVdS> because a manufacturer has one HDMI chip for all models
[20:29] <AlanBell> must be some dirt cheap controller they all use and figured nobody would ever see it, so why set it!
[20:29] <d3ngar> Well, makes me feel better buying the cheapest brand around
[20:29] <MartijnVdS> my old 42" had a 32" ident
[20:29] <AlanBell> it just works for blueray and skyHD so they don't care about doing it properly
[20:29] <d3ngar> So, I have to admit: I don't know what xrandr actually does
[20:30] <d3ngar> But I read the ubuntu wiki on how to add resolutions that aren't supported
[20:30] <AlanBell> so 720p is 1280x720
[20:30] <d3ngar> And I *thought* that I have to tune down the resolution a bit, but that had averse effects as the screen simply goes blank
[20:31] <d3ngar> Yes, so I tried down-scaling 1280 to: 1220 x 690
[20:31] <d3ngar> That, it seems, is the visible resolution under 1280x720
[20:31] <AlanBell> I would have thought 1280x720 would be the one to go for
[20:32] <AlanBell> it might sync to 1920x1080
[20:32] <d3ngar> Well that IS the resolution I can select
[20:32] <AlanBell> and 1024x768 is always worth a shot
[20:32] <d3ngar> but then I have the borders cut off by about 30x15 pixels on each border
[20:32] <AlanBell> ah
[20:33] <AlanBell> that is the problem with TV, important stuff happens in the middle
[20:33] <d3ngar> :D
[20:33] <AlanBell> on computers important stuff happens at the edges
[20:33] <d3ngar> yes: browser back buttons, scroll bars, close icons, session log-out
[20:34] <AlanBell> worth a punt http://compbrain.net/archives/tag/xrandr
[20:37] <d3ngar> Alright
[20:37] <d3ngar> I guess I would have to modify this a tad to make it work for my overscaling issue
[20:37] <d3ngar> what are these parameters that you set in the modeline?
[20:38] <d3ngar> and why does mine just result in a blank screen
[20:38] <d3ngar> I used a calculator for this that is available online
[20:38] <d3ngar> One sec, I find the link
[20:40] <d3ngar> http://xtiming.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/xtiming.pl
[21:17] <Karti> Hi all
[21:17] <daubers> Evening
[21:17] <Karti> daubers, Hi
[21:19] <awilkins> Darn. How do you rebuild alsa drivers and get them to work?
[21:22] <AlanBell> http://doodle.com/53dpqtd6qgbvdpmp needs more people on it
[21:33] <matti> ;]
[21:59] <donut>  
[22:08] <brobostigon> (TalkTalk Virus Alerts Scanning Engine)   anyone recognise that useraganet string?
[22:09] <donut> what's a useragent?
[22:10] <brobostigon> donut: its an imprint, a web browser normallygives a web server, to recognise the information about the browser and system youare using,
[22:12] <donut> Ah yes, I new the the phrase was familiar.  Does it have anything to do with browsers of people with TalkTalk internet connection?
[22:13] <brobostigon> Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686) AppleWebKit/534.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Ubuntu/11.04 Chromium/13.0.765.0 Chrome/13.0.765.0 Safar
[22:13] <AlanBell> sometimes ISPs provide a disk with an internet explorer customisation script on it so they get their name on the browser, I guess that could break the user agent string too
[22:14] <brobostigon> donut: that is myuser agent string, andi am onmy dads connection, which is with talktalk.
[22:15] <brobostigon> AlanBell: thats interesting.
[22:16] <AlanBell> technically the browser *is* the user agent
[22:16] <brobostigon> true, yes.
[22:17] <brobostigon> however theuser string i printed above, contains muchmore thanjustinformation aboutmywebbrowser.
[22:17] <dogmatic69> anyone know of some tools for drawing flow charts etc in shell
[22:18] <AlanBell> NCSA Mosaic/1.0 (X11;SunOS 4.1.4 sun4m)
[22:19] <AlanBell> dogmatic69: dot http://pythonik.blogspot.com/2008/05/using-dot-linaguage-to-produce.htmlhttp://pythonik.blogspot.com/2008/05/using-dot-linaguage-to-produce.html
[22:19] <AlanBell> just chop that URL in half and it will work
[22:19] <dogmatic69> hehe
[22:20] <dogmatic69> thanks, looks good
[22:20] <dogmatic69> will work nice with json_encode($phpArray) i think
[22:21] <mgdm> not quite
[22:21] <dogmatic69> looks like it will need some hacking though
[22:21] <mgdm> JSON has more ,
[22:21] <mgdm> and ; :)
[22:22] <mgdm> there are various PHP Graphviz libs, though
[22:23] <dogmatic69> hmmm
[22:23] <mgdm> and the format isn't /that/ hard anyway
[22:25] <dogmatic69> mgdm: seems quite nice imo, according to this http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2241382/php-graphviz-documentation
[22:44] <andylockran> :)
[22:48] <popey> this is going to sound like a silly question..
[22:48] <popey> is it possible/permissible to create compiz plugins in python?
[22:48] <ali1234> yes
[22:48] <popey> do you know of any documentation or samples?
[22:48] <ali1234> there is none
[22:48] <popey> I seem to only be turning up old ones
[22:48] <popey> excellent
[22:48] <ali1234> the bindings are quite out of date
[22:51] <AlanBell> what do you want to do popey
[22:52] <popey> i want to register a plugin which if enabled will have 3 keyboard shortcuts assigned to it
[22:53] <popey> and a few other settings
[22:53] <popey> and when those keyboard shortcuts are pressed, invoke some python magic
[22:54] <AlanBell> the python magic being some kind of window manipulation or something?
[22:54] <popey> no
[22:54] <popey> some stuff that wont interact with the stuff on screen at all
[22:55] <AlanBell> why does it have to be a compiz plugin?
[22:55] <popey> it doesnt
[22:55] <popey> it could be standalone
[22:55] <popey> but I thought our bold new future was compiz based
[22:55] <popey> so it made sense to stick it there
[22:55] <popey> its display based
[22:55] <AlanBell> ok
[22:57] <popey> Ok, no need to be secret squirrel about it tbh...
[22:57] <popey> I want to put a screencasting plugin in there
[22:57] <popey> so you turn it on, press a button and you're recording
[22:58] <AlanBell> there is one as i recall
[22:58] <popey> oh?
[22:58] <popey> gord: http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2011/may/17/computing-opensource
[22:59] <AlanBell> I could be wrong however
[22:59] <popey> i couldn't find one
[22:59]  * bigcalm wipes the sweat from his brow after having moved the revo from the sittingroom to the office. Moving stuff around to make space is hard work
[23:00] <bigcalm> Realised that one of the external harddrives has an external PSU, that'll have to go
[23:00] <popey> heh
[23:02] <bigcalm> Oh would you look at that? Samba shares are so much more useable over cat5e than they are over wifi
[23:02] <popey> :)
[23:02]  * popey remembers he started an upgrade to natty on his revo about 8 hours ago
[23:09] <AlanBell> popey:  http://git.compiz.org/~mzz/compiz-python/
[23:10] <popey> gosh, git is quick isnt it
[23:11] <aaronr> If a package is abandoned upstream by the Debian project, but is still in Ubuntu, what's the process for getting that package a maintainer?
[23:11] <popey> aaronr: I'd ask in #ubuntu-motu
[23:11] <aaronr> will do. thanks popey
[23:11] <AlanBell> git is designed to be quick, even with huge trees
[23:12] <popey> going to do this standalone and then if the mood takes me, figure out the compizification
[23:13] <AlanBell> I would have thought the standard gnome keyboard shortcuts thing would serve the purpose
[23:13] <AlanBell> but not as much fun as doing a compiz plugin
[23:14] <AlanBell> I am going to set up a compiz build environment again
[23:14] <popey> well, it seems we're moving to compiz
[23:14] <AlanBell> I want to add text cursor tracking to the enhanced zoom plugin
[23:14] <bigcalm> AH HA!
[23:14] <bigcalm> "Save 11% Seagate EXPANSION 500 GB 2.5 PORTABLE E... is  £4.30 cheaper (£34.90) on Pixmania.co.uk
[23:14] <bigcalm> "
[23:14] <AlanBell> I wonder if gord knows a cunning way to get the text cursor position without querying it via at-spi
[23:15] <bigcalm> Go to Pixmania.co.uk and find that shipping is £4.30, fancy that!
[23:15]  * bigcalm sticks with Amazon
[23:16] <bigcalm> Are there any decent & cheap 1tb external usb drives that don't require an external psu?
[23:16] <ali1234> no
[23:16] <ali1234> because 3.5" drives need 12v which requires external psu
[23:16] <ali1234> and 1tb 2.5" drives aer not cheap
[23:16] <popey> they're not that expensive
[23:17] <popey> I bought one for my laptop
[23:17] <popey> well, not "cheap", you're right
[23:17] <bigcalm> I see
[23:17] <bigcalm> I shall stick to 500gb drives then
[23:18] <bigcalm> Might have to build myself a rack out of lego or macarno to house the drives :D
[23:18] <ali1234> or you could just buy a normal computer
[23:18] <bigcalm> Na
[23:18] <bigcalm> :D
[23:19] <AlanBell> http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B003UT2QTQ/ref=asc_df_B003UT2QTQ2904533?smid=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE
[23:19] <bigcalm> Ooo
[23:19] <bigcalm> Ta
[23:20] <AlanBell> at some point the USB bus might get cross at the number of devices asking for power
[23:21] <bigcalm> True
[23:21] <bigcalm> Actually, I only need to attach 2 drives
[23:21] <AlanBell> ick, "USB Bus" did I just say that :/ I will be talking about PIN Numbers next
[23:21] <ali1234> 2 drives is too much
[23:21] <ali1234> most usb can't even power 1
[23:21] <ali1234> usually only laptops can manage it, desktops will fail
[23:21] <bigcalm> I already have http://www.amazon.co.uk/-/dp/B001XM4P1O attached
[23:21] <AlanBell> they negotiate up to 500ma
[23:22] <AlanBell> normally devices get 100ma
[23:22] <bigcalm> Hummf
[23:22] <bigcalm> I *could* replace the hd within the revo...
[23:22] <AlanBell> when you plug in the second one the computer might say no
[23:22] <popey> bah
[23:22] <ali1234> buy a normal computer.......
[23:22] <bigcalm> AlanBell: I see
[23:22] <popey> trying to find a robust way to intercept keyboard presses
[23:22] <popey> found two ways, one with xlib, one with tkinter
[23:23] <popey> xlib one barfs, I dont want to install tkinter
[23:23] <AlanBell> popey: I think u r doin it wrong
[23:23] <popey> ok
[23:23] <ali1234> i just bought a new system for my mythtv backend... £140, mini-itx, 500gb
[23:23] <AlanBell> this is to launch your application?
[23:23] <popey> no
[23:23] <AlanBell> this is to send a signal to a running application?
[23:24] <popey> the application is launched, it sits there waiting for you to press CTRL_ALT+FOO
[23:24] <popey> yes
[23:25] <AlanBell> and the fun part is your application doesn't have focus
[23:25] <popey> exactly
[23:25] <popey> hence using xlib
[23:25] <popey> which kinda works
[23:26] <popey> gtk-recordmydesktop does actually do this
[23:26] <popey> trying to find where in the code so I can "borrow" it
[23:26] <AlanBell> you could do it with a keyboard shortcut that sends a sigkill type message
[23:28] <popey> ah, it looks like it's done in recordmydesktop (c) not gtk-recordmydesktop (py)
[23:29] <AlanBell> http://pykeylogger.git.sourceforge.net/git/gitweb.cgi?p=pykeylogger/pykeylogger;a=blob;f=pyxhook.py;h=745500f2570df8660f95547a99cc52618f49a153;hb=HEAD
[23:30] <AlanBell> that does the xlib stuff
[23:30] <AlanBell> doesn't look much fun
[23:31] <popey> http://www.larsen-b.com/Article/184.html
[23:31] <popey> is a nice short version
[23:31] <popey> which I have trimmed down to...
[23:31] <popey> http://paste.ubuntu.com/609215/
[23:32] <popey> which runs..
[23:32] <popey> but for two issues...
[23:32] <popey> http://paste.ubuntu.com/609216/
[23:32] <Azelphur> popey: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3832397/Photos/May%202011/IMG_20110517_202146.jpg
[23:32] <popey> http://paste.ubuntu.com/609217/
[23:32] <Azelphur> I feel like I've strapped a jet engine to a push bike. \o/
[23:33] <popey> can you sleep with that on?
[23:33] <Azelphur> popey: haha, I had to sleep in the same room as it for a few days, ain't gonna lie headaches where had, and I was wearing earplugs
[23:33] <Azelphur> but now I have a board for it, I've slung it in the spare bedroom that nobody is in
[23:33] <popey> hah, loon
[23:34] <Azelphur> :D
[23:34] <Azelphur> popey: you think that's loon...I just ordered 8 of them
[23:34] <Azelphur> :x
[23:34] <popey> 8 ATI cards?
[23:34] <popey> you have too much money
[23:34] <Azelphur> and the rest of the hardware, yes
[23:35] <popey> AlanBell: suggestions welcome :)
[23:38] <AlanBell> suggestion, use 4 spaces and not tabs :)
[23:38] <popey> hah
[23:39] <AlanBell> even though I wish the convention was tabs
[23:39]  * popey changes his gedit config to comply with AlanBellStandard
[23:43] <AlanBell> http://tronche.com/gui/x/xlib/event-handling/protocol-errors/default-handlers.html
[23:43] <AlanBell> A client attempts to select an event type that another client has already selected.
[23:43] <popey> ah okay
[23:44] <popey> i suspected that might be the case
[23:44] <popey> because it's using vol up/down which is already assigned
[23:44] <popey> found another demo which works too
[23:44] <popey> http://peabody.weeman.org/autokey.py
[23:45] <popey> yay! working
[23:45] <AlanBell> yay
[23:46] <bigcalm> Would you look at the time?!
[23:46]  * bigcalm slithers off
[23:46] <popey> so f6 is keycode 72
[23:46]  * popey wonders what f7 is
[23:47] <popey> xev says 73
[23:47] <popey> i think this is a lie
[23:50]  * AlanBell slinks off
[23:50] <popey> nn