[00:48] <Chotaz> where can i get oneiric?
[00:49] <arand> Chotaz: I don't any liveCDs are up yet, so you simply edit the sources and pull wia apt.
[00:50] <Chotaz> is it true that oneiric is losing Gnome Classic Look?
[00:50] <arand> (Expect it to break, and act accordingly)
[00:51] <arand> Well, afaik that's the plan
[00:51] <Chotaz> I guess that'll be when I change distros.
[00:52] <arand> Well classic gnome isn't going to be around forever either way..
[00:52] <Chotaz> I honestly hate unity
[00:52] <arand> Plenty of alternatives..
[00:52] <Chotaz> for ubuntu?
[00:54] <rww> gnome3, kde, xfce, all the tiling window managers, openbox, fluxbox...
[00:54] <Chotaz> oh right, there's kde and the one starting with x, those are the oens I know
[00:54] <arand> xubuntu, kubuntu, lubuntu... (linux mint, Debian)
[00:54] <Chotaz> aesthetically, i like none of them
[00:54] <rww> the only WM you can stand is GNOME 2. really. well damn.
[00:55] <Chotaz> aren't they even try to have gnome 3 ?
[00:55] <Chotaz> or having gnome doesn't mean ahve gnome classic look?
[00:55] <rww> gnome3 is the first thing on my list.
[00:55] <rww> dunno whether GNOME 3 fallback will work, since it doesn't in the PPA for natty.
[00:56]  * rww hasn't looked at why that is
[00:56] <arand> I'm guessing gnome-shell will be in the repositories, but not an alternaative by defualt
[00:57] <arand> I assume fallback will work when gnome3 is packaged properly Debian, I'm not sure how many they've got there working out things..
[00:58] <arand> From what little I saw it was mainly one guy pulling that load :/
[01:00] <rww> ooo, Debian went from 30 to 33 out of 118 packages up to date in unstable for gnome3
[01:00] <rww> (yes, it's slow going)
[01:00] <arand> Looking at the PTS, that thing about one guy might be wildly innaccurate...
[01:00] <Chotaz> iiuc, they still need to make 33/118 packages compatible with gnome 3?
[01:01] <Chotaz> rww, any tip on my question on main channeç?
[01:03] <rww> Chotaz: no, 33 of the packages comprising gnome 3 are up to date in unstable, and (118-33) are still to go
[01:03] <rww> Chotaz: if I had one, I would have said it ;P
[01:04]  * rww doesn't do nvidia
[01:04] <Chotaz> I gueess so, ty :)
[01:04] <Chotaz> next time I upgrade I'm going amd, both ways.
[01:05] <arand> Only way to keep safe seems to keep to intel...
[01:06] <rww> and not all intel
[01:07] <Chotaz> arand, by safe you mean?
[01:07] <arand> For support I guess...
[01:07] <arand> Well I can't complain, I've had very few issues with my current nv card..
[01:09] <Chotaz> I currently have a Q660 OC'd at 4.0, perfectly stable with water cooling, 8GB of ram and a slightly OC'd GTX9800, but YT videos act weird on full screen, dunno why that'd happen on such a rig, neither I know how to get around it.
[01:09] <Chotaz> huh, wrong channel
[01:09] <Chotaz> sorry
[01:21] <LLStarks> what's the timeline for ubuntu defaulting to btrfs?
[01:22] <bjsnider> there is no definite timeline
[01:22] <rww> did it get discussed during UDS? I haven't perused the UDS schedule/videos yer
[01:22] <rww> yet **
[01:22] <bjsnider> certainly we need a working btrfsck
[01:24] <arand> That's "kindamaybe" at the end of this month, but then again, that will be a first relese of fsck that can actually do useful things, will likely take a while to refine...
[01:25] <arand> I've not been able to find anything but the YT vids... I'd love to see/hear the btrfs session :/
[01:27] <jtaylor> arand: wheren't they recorded?
[01:27] <rww> The ones I'm talking about are the youtube ones, yes.
[01:27] <arand> Just not uploaded yet, I think.
[01:28] <Gulfstream> does regular apt-get upgrade work?
[01:28] <rww> Gulfstream: work for what, exactly?
[01:28] <arand> Gulfstream: With sources editing, yes.
[01:28] <Gulfstream> I just built an ISO, and I applied updates to it
[01:28] <arand> (Expect breakage, act accordingly)
[01:29] <Gulfstream> I meant, does the OCaml rebuild affect apt-get upgrade?
[01:29] <rww> Do you have ocaml-related packages installed?
[01:30] <Gulfstream> rww, I have the same packages as Natty, but with Oneiric updates
[01:30] <rww> Gulfstream: I don't think natty desktop includes ocaml-related packages by default.
[01:30] <rww> I could be wrong, as always.
[01:32] <arand> I love the suggestion of ubudev unlockable achivements laid out in the community contributions video :D
[01:32] <rww> so I wonder what we're going to complain about in here this cycle instead of Unity O:)
[01:33] <Gulfstream> GNOME 3?
[01:33] <arand> rww: Do you seriously expect folks to not complain about Unity !?
[01:33] <Gulfstream> Firefox 5 or 6?
[01:33] <Gulfstream> LibreOffice 3.4 ?
[01:33] <rww> arand: people usually get bored of complaining about new things after a month or so. see window control position for example
[01:34] <jtaylor> well that still annoys me
[01:34] <Gulfstream> or... overlay scrollbars
[01:34] <jtaylor> even though I have reverted that change
[01:34] <rww> Gulfstream: less complaining there than I thought there'd be
[01:34] <arand> rww: Very true, though that was arguably a bit less invasive than Unity..
[01:35] <rww> true. I guess it got overshadowed
[01:35] <rww> or maybe it actually works for most people and nobody hates it. iono.
[01:35] <arand> I guess it will be just general gnome3 breakage, more lack of configurability, etc..
[01:36] <Gulfstream> so is it for sure that there will be GNOME 3 n 11.10?
[01:36] <arand> I think that is the plan, gnome3 with Unity as the DM.
[01:37] <arand> (Which seems like a daunting task)
[01:37] <Gulfstream> and it will have Ubuntu CLassic?
[01:37] <arand> ...When gnome3 isn't even properly impemented yet
[01:37] <semitones> The new weird/broken thing overshadows the old weird/broken thing, even if that hasn't been fixed or addressed
[01:37] <arand> Gulfstream: Nope, unity/unity-2d (According to plan)
[01:37] <rww> Unity 2D the Qt thing?
[01:38] <arand> Yea.
[01:38] <rww> interesting. haven't tried it yet.
[01:38] <arand> If you don't use cirrus it actually works ok on qemu-kvm
[01:57] <jbicha> I hear that btrfs has poorer performance than ext4 in too many cases
[01:58] <arand> jtaylor: Yes, partly because it is not mature, partly because that has never been it's goal..
[01:59] <arand> (Focus on features instead of blazing fast)
[02:05] <Gulfstream> arand, Why would they have Unity 2D instead of Ubuntu Classic?
[02:05] <Gulfstream> It doesn't make sense.
[02:05] <rww> because two different UIs is a pain for user experience
[02:06] <bjsnider> the plan is to have the full gnome 3 with gnome-shell, and unity as login choices
[02:06] <bjsnider> unlike the natty situation
[02:06] <Gulfstream> oh so then a user can use the Unity UI on a new computer and old computers?
[02:07] <bjsnider> not necessarily old computers, but in situations where the graphics driver can't do compositing
[02:08] <Gulfstream> so less computers will be able to run Ubuntu 11.10 than run 10.04?
[02:08] <arand> bjsnider: So gnome-shell installed by default?
[02:08] <bjsnider> right
[02:08] <bjsnider> you'd just pick which one you'd want to use at the login screen
[02:09] <bjsnider> the session selector
[02:09] <arand> That's quite exciting, got any source for that?
[02:09] <bjsnider> that's straight from the gnome 3 team
[02:09] <Gulfstream> I'm going to test my Ubuntu 11.10 CD now.
[02:09] <bjsnider> they're working on it right now
[02:10] <bjsnider> they've already got the packages in oneiric
[02:10] <arand> Interesting..
[02:10] <jbicha> bjsnider: I believe you're a bit mistaken
[02:10] <jbicha> Gnome Shell will be in the repositories but not on the CD
[02:11] <arand> Yea, that's what I was thinking as well...
[02:11] <bjsnider> what does the cd have to do with it?
[02:11] <arand> The preeseed rather, I guess..
[02:11] <jbicha> you said Gnome Shell would be installed by default and that is definitely not true for 11.10
[02:13] <Gulfstream> that disc didn't work :(
[02:13] <bjsnider> i'm not sure i actually said it would be installed by default, but the packages will be there and can be installed side-by-side with unity, which is not the case now
[02:14] <bjsnider> i don't give a hoot what's on the cd
[02:15] <bjsnider> in natty, you have to destroy your unity packages to use gnome 3. that will not be the case in oneiric
[02:15] <Gulfstream> good
[02:15] <bjsnider> well, destroy your ability to go back to unity
[02:16] <Gulfstream> I'm going to try another disc, and see if it will be able to boot and install
[02:16] <Gulfstream> this time, I am only modifying sources.list
[02:17] <arand> Easiest is to install natty and then pull the ugrade..
[02:18] <Gulfstream> I'm wanting to use a disc that does almost everything.
[02:18] <Gulfstream> I modified sources.list, and refreshed package info, so I'll see if that works.
[02:20] <jbicha> Unity is still usable with the gnome3 PPA but the look & feel is broken & there are a bunch of bugs
[02:20] <Gulfstream> yeah
[02:22] <Gulfstream> bjsnider, do you know which firefox version will be included?
[02:24] <bjsnider> jbicha, oh, so not much is different then...
[02:25] <jimmyxu> Anyone idea of how to add a new keyboard shortcut under GNOME 3? The "+" button in gnome-control-center is grayed out.
[02:25] <IdleOne> doesn't gnome3 have a irc channel?
[02:25] <jbicha> well 11.10 will be a lot better experience
[02:26] <bjsnider> Gulfstream, i heard they're going to do constant updates to the latest version
[02:26] <IdleOne> or is Ubuntu meant to support them also
[02:26] <jimmyxu> IdleOne: asked, nobody seems to be around :(
[02:26] <arand> IdleOne: On irc.gnome.org #gnome, I guess...
[02:27] <bjsnider> jimmyxu, they'll be around in business hours
[02:27] <IdleOne> arand: go to know where to send folks
[02:27] <bjsnider> the #gnome-shell channel on gnome-s irc server
[02:28] <Gulfstream> bjsnider, so natty is supposed to have Fx 5 when that comes out?
[02:30] <Gulfstream> or is oneiric supposed to have Firefox 6?
[02:31] <bjsnider> whatever the latest version is, but i imagine they'll switch the default browser to chromium, so fewer people will use firefox
[02:32] <arand> Following that discussion, I'm actually not so sure about that...
[02:33] <bjsnider> if they don't do it this cycle, they will soon after
[02:33] <Gulfstream> why Chromium?
[02:34] <Gulfstream> it is unstable, I thought...
[02:34] <SudoKing> faster though!
[02:34] <bjsnider> it's faster than firefox by about...a billion times
[02:34] <bjsnider> firefox doesn't work very well on linux
[02:34] <SudoKing> yea :) but i still like firefox because of the toolbar
[02:34] <bjsnider> toolbar?
[02:35] <Gulfstream> but what about people with Firefox toolbars?
[02:35] <SudoKing> File, Edit, View, History, Bookmarks, Tools, Help
[02:36] <bjsnider> menubar
[02:36] <bjsnider> what about it?
[02:36] <SudoKing> more convenient for me than that wrench icon :)
[02:37] <Gulfstream> But how can you get ex-Windows users when they don't see any familiar apps? Mozilla Firefox is used as the most popular browser in many countries
[02:38] <bjsnider> seems like one condensed button would technically be more convenient than a bunch of them, but whatever floats your boat
[02:38] <arand> chrome isn't too unpopular either..
[02:38] <bjsnider> Gulfstream, no one is coercing anyone into not using fireforks
[02:39] <bjsnider> microsoft just ripped off chrome with ie9
[02:39] <Gulfstream> I think Firefox will remain default for Ubuntu
[02:39] <Gulfstream> ie9?
[02:39] <arand> I can agree that chromium fits Unity, though as far as I could tell, it's not at all sure to happen..
[02:39] <bjsnider> maybe the mozilla foundation could put someone to the task of making firefox work well on linux
[02:40] <Gulfstream> Firefox already works well
[02:40] <bjsnider> no it does not
[02:40] <Gulfstream> really?
[02:41] <Gulfstream> the only part I like with Chromium is the voice plugin working very well
[02:41] <Gulfstream> but for Adobe Acrobat connect meetings, the plugin only works on Firefox
[02:41] <bjsnider> you could load at least 10 chromium windows int he same time as it takes to load one firefox window
[02:41] <bjsnider> mozilla focuses their attention on making it work well on windows
[02:42] <Gulfstream> but Chromium does work surprisingly better on Mac OS X...
[02:42] <bjsnider> apparently firefox in wine is faster than it is natively
[02:43] <bjsnider> then there's the theming crap
[02:43] <bjsnider> and the fact that everything's in one thread, so you can't kill one tab but keep the window
[02:43] <arand> It is somewhat slower, yes, imo, still far better as a browser than chromium, in the same way that it is better than w3m, and afaik, Fx4 has quite a loot of improvements in that area..
[02:44] <bjsnider> arand, what does firefox do better than chrome? it has a less sophisticated layout engine
[02:44] <Gulfstream> but i think Ubuntu will stick with Firefox
[02:45] <arand> Me personally, it has tabmixplus.
[02:48] <Gulfstream> if Ubuntu were to have Chromium by default, what would happen to the Ubuntu PPC users?
[02:49] <rww> firefox, presumably
[02:51] <Gulfstream> okay
[02:51] <Gulfstream> I'm going to test an Oneiric CD now
[02:52] <jbicha> Chromium will have the menubar in 11.10; it's part of Chromium 13 I believe
[02:55] <bjsnider> i'm using chromium 13 and i don't see a menubar
[02:59] <jbicha> about:flags then
[03:00] <jbicha> way down at the bottom of the list
[03:01] <LLStarks> oneiric is cheerfully broken right now
[03:03] <TerminX> that's not too surprising
[03:06] <TerminX> I'm still waiting for my install to explode; I hacked my way through an in-place upgrade from i386 to amd64 arch without using debootstrap or chroots or any kind of install/recovery media the other day
[03:09] <bjsnider> how did you manage to do that?
[03:10] <TerminX> lots of dpkg --force-architecture and usage of busybox-static
[03:10] <rww> I'm getting a headache just thinking about this.
[03:12] <TerminX> after you get an amd64 kernel booting your existing 32-bit installation you start with the i386 compatibility libc and all its deps, then remove 32-bit libc and install 64-bit libc and cross your fingers ;) from there you have to remove/replace dpkg and apt-get and all of their deps
[03:12] <TerminX> and so on and so forth
[03:14] <TerminX> I moved the installation from 32-bit to 64-bit hardware previously and since the standard answer to people questioning whether upgrades to different architectures are possible is generally that it's not, I knew I had to do it ;)
[03:16] <rww> we say it's not so that people don't attempt to do it. "It is but you need to be on crack to try it" isn't as effective a deterrent.
[03:17] <TerminX> yeah, it's not a process I would necessarily recommend to anyone else
[03:21] <Gulfstream> looks like my ISOs were all bad. :(
[03:21] <Gulfstream> is there an Oneiric ISO that works?
[03:22] <TerminX> you would probably be better off installing from a natty iso and upgrading the parts that aren't currently broken afterwards :p
[03:23] <rww> this ^
[03:23] <Gulfstream> okay, I'll try that after I install from a natty cd
[08:38] <ircrob> my vote is for chromium, it has a sandbox for security
[08:39] <ircrob> unity + compiz + wayland is the way to go
[08:40] <ircrob> keep apt-get to use on console
[08:42] <ircrob> gnome apps should only depend on gnome libs
[08:43] <ircrob> option to purge plymouth, so can see the boot process
[09:50] <zniavre> !gnome-core
[10:44] <sony> will we be able to move the launcher in 11.10
[10:45] <Guest95765> i meant change it's position on the screen, will we be able to do that?
[16:13] <Gulfstream> is the rebuild done yet?
[16:15] <Gulfstream> looks like it wouldn't affect me, but is Oneiric working fine for someone with the latest updates/upgrade?
[16:19] <Gulfstream> I'm going to see what the partial upgrade would do
[16:20] <Gulfstream> okay it would remove libpurple0, libgvfscommon0, libperl5.10, and telepathy-haze. These appear to be safe to remove
[16:23] <Gulfstream> looks safe to me
[17:00] <Gulfstream> could not install/upgrade ca-certificates-java
[17:01] <lallenlowe> so is everyone elses gnome-settings-daemon failing to theme controls and colors? or is it just me?
[17:03] <Gulfstream> I dunno
[17:03] <Gulfstream> for the bug report, should I say it is a security vulnerability since it deals with the ca-certificates-java ?
[17:05] <lallenlowe> Gulfstream: what is your problem? I think I had the same one yesterday
[17:05] <lallenlowe> Gulfstream: have you updated today?
[17:05] <Gulfstream> I just did a partial upgrade
[17:06] <lallenlowe> I uninstalled ca-certificates-java yesterday
[17:06] <lallenlowe> upgraded today
[17:06] <lallenlowe> and reinstalled open jdk
[17:06] <lallenlowe> and it set up the certificates just fine
[17:06] <Gulfstream> so I should reinstall them?
[17:07] <lallenlowe> Gulfstream: it's worth a shot, I think the latest package doesn't break anymore
[17:08] <Gulfstream> okay
[17:08] <Gulfstream> then I'll reboot. Hopefully it will boot.
[17:08] <lallenlowe> Gulfstream: good luck
[17:08] <lallenlowe> :P
[17:08] <lallenlowe> Gulfstream: wait, one sec
[17:08] <Gulfstream> okay
[17:08] <lallenlowe> Gulfstream: is your gnome-settings-daemon failing to theme controls and colors also?
[17:09] <Gulfstream> I think it was while the upgrade was running
[17:09] <Gulfstream> but I don't think it is anymore. What looks weird?
[17:10] <lallenlowe> Gulfstream: unity panel, and all window controls
[17:10] <lallenlowe> Gulfstream: icons and window decorations are fine
[17:10] <Gulfstream> Unity looks OK, the windows decorations look OK, but nautilus looks strange. The search icon is missing
[17:10] <Gulfstream> I should probably reboot for it to work
[17:11] <lallenlowe> shoot, that means it might just be me
[17:11] <Gulfstream> I should reboot and if it looks strange, I'll try to get onto IRC and let you know
[17:15] <Gulfstream> lallenlowe, it happened
[17:15] <Gulfstream> things are completely messed up
[17:15] <lallenlowe> Gulfstream: the theme you mean?
[17:15] <Gulfstream> yes
[17:15] <lallenlowe> kk
[17:16] <lallenlowe> yeah, gnome-settings-daemon is totally ignoring the controls and colors theme
[17:16] <lallenlowe> and wallpaper for that matter
[17:16] <Gulfstream> yup
[17:16] <lallenlowe> I built and installed lp:wallpaper as a temporary workaround, so that it didn't look so confusing
[17:18] <Gulfstream> I'll go back to Natty until things get a bit more stable.
[17:19] <lallenlowe> Gulfstream: oh, you're not a developer?
[17:19] <Gulfstream> lallenlowe, just a curious user
[17:19] <lallenlowe> Gulfstream: ah, yeah, wait at least til alpha 1
[17:19] <lallenlowe> for testing
[17:20] <Gulfstream> yeah
[17:20] <Gulfstream> so should I reinstall all packages or reinstall natty from a CD?
[17:21] <lallenlowe> Gulfstream: CD
[17:22] <Gulfstream> okay
[22:29] <magn3ts> How will one acquire Gnome-Classic for 11.10?
[22:33] <IdleOne> magn3ts: they won't
[22:33] <BUGabundo> evening
[22:33] <magn3ts> IdleOne, what? At all?
[22:33] <magn3ts> If there is Gnome-shell, why can't they have gnome classic?
[22:33] <IdleOne> support for the classic desktop will be dropped
[22:33] <magn3ts> They won't even be able to install it? What about non compositing environments?
[22:33] <BUGabundo> 3h long hours to do regular upgrades!!!
[22:33] <BUGabundo> WOW
[22:34] <IdleOne> magn3ts: I'm sure there will be a way to install it but it won't be installed default
[22:34] <magn3ts> IdleOne, I see.
[22:34] <magn3ts> Also, what is the point of Unity 2D if Compiz can use noncomposited backends?
[22:36] <BUGabundo> I can't even get compiz to work on Classic LOL
[22:57] <dusf> someone on a linux channel elsewhere told me that i should use LTS because of all the bugs in ubuntu's 6 month releases, and that i should check this channel out
[22:57] <dusf> can anyone explain why?
[22:59] <rww> This channel's for pre-release development versions. Seems like the opposite of what they're saying you should use :\
[22:59] <rww> (and personally I'd agree that LTSes are good. no sense updating twice a year, it gets old)
[23:16] <dusf> rww: ty
[23:47] <jakubo> hi, any news of oneiric pre alpha?
[23:47] <jakubo> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/OneiricOcelot/TechnicalOverview
[23:47] <jakubo> its said its possible to get, but it seems not for me... i wonder why...
[23:51] <micahg> jakubo: I think that's a rough draft of the alpha 1 release notes, it won't be ready for another few weeks
[23:52] <jakubo> ic...
[23:52] <IdleOne> you really should not update to pre-alpha
[23:52] <jakubo> i did on 10.10 and its still working^^
[23:53]  * micahg would like to, but will wait for update-manager to get the hooks in it
[23:53] <jakubo> sry i meant "from"