[00:48] where can i get oneiric? [00:49] Chotaz: I don't any liveCDs are up yet, so you simply edit the sources and pull wia apt. [00:50] is it true that oneiric is losing Gnome Classic Look? [00:50] (Expect it to break, and act accordingly) [00:51] Well, afaik that's the plan [00:51] I guess that'll be when I change distros. [00:52] Well classic gnome isn't going to be around forever either way.. [00:52] I honestly hate unity [00:52] Plenty of alternatives.. [00:52] for ubuntu? [00:54] gnome3, kde, xfce, all the tiling window managers, openbox, fluxbox... [00:54] oh right, there's kde and the one starting with x, those are the oens I know [00:54] xubuntu, kubuntu, lubuntu... (linux mint, Debian) [00:54] aesthetically, i like none of them [00:54] the only WM you can stand is GNOME 2. really. well damn. [00:55] aren't they even try to have gnome 3 ? [00:55] or having gnome doesn't mean ahve gnome classic look? [00:55] gnome3 is the first thing on my list. [00:55] dunno whether GNOME 3 fallback will work, since it doesn't in the PPA for natty. [00:56] * rww hasn't looked at why that is [00:56] I'm guessing gnome-shell will be in the repositories, but not an alternaative by defualt [00:57] I assume fallback will work when gnome3 is packaged properly Debian, I'm not sure how many they've got there working out things.. [00:58] From what little I saw it was mainly one guy pulling that load :/ [01:00] ooo, Debian went from 30 to 33 out of 118 packages up to date in unstable for gnome3 [01:00] (yes, it's slow going) [01:00] Looking at the PTS, that thing about one guy might be wildly innaccurate... [01:00] iiuc, they still need to make 33/118 packages compatible with gnome 3? [01:01] rww, any tip on my question on main channeç? [01:03] Chotaz: no, 33 of the packages comprising gnome 3 are up to date in unstable, and (118-33) are still to go [01:03] Chotaz: if I had one, I would have said it ;P [01:04] * rww doesn't do nvidia [01:04] I gueess so, ty :) [01:04] next time I upgrade I'm going amd, both ways. [01:05] Only way to keep safe seems to keep to intel... [01:06] and not all intel [01:07] arand, by safe you mean? [01:07] For support I guess... [01:07] Well I can't complain, I've had very few issues with my current nv card.. [01:09] I currently have a Q660 OC'd at 4.0, perfectly stable with water cooling, 8GB of ram and a slightly OC'd GTX9800, but YT videos act weird on full screen, dunno why that'd happen on such a rig, neither I know how to get around it. [01:09] huh, wrong channel [01:09] sorry [01:21] what's the timeline for ubuntu defaulting to btrfs? [01:22] there is no definite timeline [01:22] did it get discussed during UDS? I haven't perused the UDS schedule/videos yer [01:22] yet ** [01:22] certainly we need a working btrfsck [01:24] That's "kindamaybe" at the end of this month, but then again, that will be a first relese of fsck that can actually do useful things, will likely take a while to refine... [01:25] I've not been able to find anything but the YT vids... I'd love to see/hear the btrfs session :/ [01:27] arand: wheren't they recorded? [01:27] The ones I'm talking about are the youtube ones, yes. [01:27] Just not uploaded yet, I think. [01:28] does regular apt-get upgrade work? [01:28] Gulfstream: work for what, exactly? [01:28] Gulfstream: With sources editing, yes. [01:28] I just built an ISO, and I applied updates to it [01:28] (Expect breakage, act accordingly) [01:29] I meant, does the OCaml rebuild affect apt-get upgrade? [01:29] Do you have ocaml-related packages installed? [01:30] rww, I have the same packages as Natty, but with Oneiric updates [01:30] Gulfstream: I don't think natty desktop includes ocaml-related packages by default. [01:30] I could be wrong, as always. [01:32] I love the suggestion of ubudev unlockable achivements laid out in the community contributions video :D [01:32] so I wonder what we're going to complain about in here this cycle instead of Unity O:) [01:33] GNOME 3? [01:33] rww: Do you seriously expect folks to not complain about Unity !? [01:33] Firefox 5 or 6? [01:33] LibreOffice 3.4 ? [01:33] arand: people usually get bored of complaining about new things after a month or so. see window control position for example [01:34] well that still annoys me [01:34] or... overlay scrollbars [01:34] even though I have reverted that change [01:34] Gulfstream: less complaining there than I thought there'd be [01:34] rww: Very true, though that was arguably a bit less invasive than Unity.. [01:35] true. I guess it got overshadowed [01:35] or maybe it actually works for most people and nobody hates it. iono. [01:35] I guess it will be just general gnome3 breakage, more lack of configurability, etc.. [01:36] so is it for sure that there will be GNOME 3 n 11.10? [01:36] I think that is the plan, gnome3 with Unity as the DM. [01:37] (Which seems like a daunting task) [01:37] and it will have Ubuntu CLassic? [01:37] ...When gnome3 isn't even properly impemented yet [01:37] The new weird/broken thing overshadows the old weird/broken thing, even if that hasn't been fixed or addressed [01:37] Gulfstream: Nope, unity/unity-2d (According to plan) [01:37] Unity 2D the Qt thing? [01:38] Yea. [01:38] interesting. haven't tried it yet. [01:38] If you don't use cirrus it actually works ok on qemu-kvm [01:57] I hear that btrfs has poorer performance than ext4 in too many cases [01:58] jtaylor: Yes, partly because it is not mature, partly because that has never been it's goal.. [01:59] (Focus on features instead of blazing fast) [02:05] arand, Why would they have Unity 2D instead of Ubuntu Classic? [02:05] It doesn't make sense. [02:05] because two different UIs is a pain for user experience [02:06] the plan is to have the full gnome 3 with gnome-shell, and unity as login choices [02:06] unlike the natty situation [02:06] oh so then a user can use the Unity UI on a new computer and old computers? [02:07] not necessarily old computers, but in situations where the graphics driver can't do compositing [02:08] so less computers will be able to run Ubuntu 11.10 than run 10.04? [02:08] bjsnider: So gnome-shell installed by default? [02:08] right [02:08] you'd just pick which one you'd want to use at the login screen [02:09] the session selector [02:09] That's quite exciting, got any source for that? [02:09] that's straight from the gnome 3 team [02:09] I'm going to test my Ubuntu 11.10 CD now. [02:09] they're working on it right now [02:10] they've already got the packages in oneiric [02:10] Interesting.. [02:10] bjsnider: I believe you're a bit mistaken [02:10] Gnome Shell will be in the repositories but not on the CD [02:11] Yea, that's what I was thinking as well... [02:11] what does the cd have to do with it? [02:11] The preeseed rather, I guess.. [02:11] you said Gnome Shell would be installed by default and that is definitely not true for 11.10 [02:13] that disc didn't work :( [02:13] i'm not sure i actually said it would be installed by default, but the packages will be there and can be installed side-by-side with unity, which is not the case now [02:14] i don't give a hoot what's on the cd [02:15] in natty, you have to destroy your unity packages to use gnome 3. that will not be the case in oneiric [02:15] good [02:15] well, destroy your ability to go back to unity [02:16] I'm going to try another disc, and see if it will be able to boot and install [02:16] this time, I am only modifying sources.list [02:17] Easiest is to install natty and then pull the ugrade.. [02:18] I'm wanting to use a disc that does almost everything. [02:18] I modified sources.list, and refreshed package info, so I'll see if that works. === hallyn is now known as hallyn_afk [02:20] Unity is still usable with the gnome3 PPA but the look & feel is broken & there are a bunch of bugs [02:20] yeah [02:22] bjsnider, do you know which firefox version will be included? [02:24] jbicha, oh, so not much is different then... [02:25] Anyone idea of how to add a new keyboard shortcut under GNOME 3? The "+" button in gnome-control-center is grayed out. [02:25] doesn't gnome3 have a irc channel? [02:25] well 11.10 will be a lot better experience [02:26] Gulfstream, i heard they're going to do constant updates to the latest version [02:26] or is Ubuntu meant to support them also [02:26] IdleOne: asked, nobody seems to be around :( [02:26] IdleOne: On irc.gnome.org #gnome, I guess... [02:27] jimmyxu, they'll be around in business hours [02:27] arand: go to know where to send folks [02:27] the #gnome-shell channel on gnome-s irc server [02:28] bjsnider, so natty is supposed to have Fx 5 when that comes out? [02:30] or is oneiric supposed to have Firefox 6? [02:31] whatever the latest version is, but i imagine they'll switch the default browser to chromium, so fewer people will use firefox [02:32] Following that discussion, I'm actually not so sure about that... [02:33] if they don't do it this cycle, they will soon after [02:33] why Chromium? [02:34] it is unstable, I thought... [02:34] faster though! [02:34] it's faster than firefox by about...a billion times [02:34] firefox doesn't work very well on linux [02:34] yea :) but i still like firefox because of the toolbar [02:34] toolbar? [02:35] but what about people with Firefox toolbars? [02:35] File, Edit, View, History, Bookmarks, Tools, Help [02:36] menubar [02:36] what about it? [02:36] more convenient for me than that wrench icon :) [02:37] But how can you get ex-Windows users when they don't see any familiar apps? Mozilla Firefox is used as the most popular browser in many countries [02:38] seems like one condensed button would technically be more convenient than a bunch of them, but whatever floats your boat [02:38] chrome isn't too unpopular either.. [02:38] Gulfstream, no one is coercing anyone into not using fireforks [02:39] microsoft just ripped off chrome with ie9 [02:39] I think Firefox will remain default for Ubuntu [02:39] ie9? [02:39] I can agree that chromium fits Unity, though as far as I could tell, it's not at all sure to happen.. [02:39] maybe the mozilla foundation could put someone to the task of making firefox work well on linux [02:40] Firefox already works well [02:40] no it does not [02:40] really? [02:41] the only part I like with Chromium is the voice plugin working very well [02:41] but for Adobe Acrobat connect meetings, the plugin only works on Firefox [02:41] you could load at least 10 chromium windows int he same time as it takes to load one firefox window [02:41] mozilla focuses their attention on making it work well on windows [02:42] but Chromium does work surprisingly better on Mac OS X... [02:42] apparently firefox in wine is faster than it is natively [02:43] then there's the theming crap [02:43] and the fact that everything's in one thread, so you can't kill one tab but keep the window [02:43] It is somewhat slower, yes, imo, still far better as a browser than chromium, in the same way that it is better than w3m, and afaik, Fx4 has quite a loot of improvements in that area.. [02:44] arand, what does firefox do better than chrome? it has a less sophisticated layout engine [02:44] but i think Ubuntu will stick with Firefox [02:45] Me personally, it has tabmixplus. [02:48] if Ubuntu were to have Chromium by default, what would happen to the Ubuntu PPC users? [02:49] firefox, presumably [02:51] okay [02:51] I'm going to test an Oneiric CD now [02:52] Chromium will have the menubar in 11.10; it's part of Chromium 13 I believe [02:55] i'm using chromium 13 and i don't see a menubar [02:59] about:flags then [03:00] way down at the bottom of the list [03:01] oneiric is cheerfully broken right now [03:03] that's not too surprising [03:06] I'm still waiting for my install to explode; I hacked my way through an in-place upgrade from i386 to amd64 arch without using debootstrap or chroots or any kind of install/recovery media the other day [03:09] how did you manage to do that? [03:10] lots of dpkg --force-architecture and usage of busybox-static [03:10] I'm getting a headache just thinking about this. [03:12] after you get an amd64 kernel booting your existing 32-bit installation you start with the i386 compatibility libc and all its deps, then remove 32-bit libc and install 64-bit libc and cross your fingers ;) from there you have to remove/replace dpkg and apt-get and all of their deps [03:12] and so on and so forth [03:14] I moved the installation from 32-bit to 64-bit hardware previously and since the standard answer to people questioning whether upgrades to different architectures are possible is generally that it's not, I knew I had to do it ;) [03:16] we say it's not so that people don't attempt to do it. "It is but you need to be on crack to try it" isn't as effective a deterrent. [03:17] yeah, it's not a process I would necessarily recommend to anyone else [03:21] looks like my ISOs were all bad. :( [03:21] is there an Oneiric ISO that works? [03:22] you would probably be better off installing from a natty iso and upgrading the parts that aren't currently broken afterwards :p [03:23] this ^ [03:23] okay, I'll try that after I install from a natty cd === yofel_ is now known as yofel [08:38] my vote is for chromium, it has a sandbox for security [08:39] unity + compiz + wayland is the way to go [08:40] keep apt-get to use on console [08:42] gnome apps should only depend on gnome libs [08:43] option to purge plymouth, so can see the boot process === smuxi-user-jtayl is now known as jtaylor === evilmist is now known as mrmist [09:50] !gnome-core === ghostcube_ is now known as ghostcube [10:44] will we be able to move the launcher in 11.10 === sony is now known as Guest95765 [10:45] i meant change it's position on the screen, will we be able to do that? [16:13] is the rebuild done yet? [16:15] looks like it wouldn't affect me, but is Oneiric working fine for someone with the latest updates/upgrade? [16:19] I'm going to see what the partial upgrade would do [16:20] okay it would remove libpurple0, libgvfscommon0, libperl5.10, and telepathy-haze. These appear to be safe to remove [16:23] looks safe to me === hallyn_afk is now known as hallyn [17:00] could not install/upgrade ca-certificates-java [17:01] so is everyone elses gnome-settings-daemon failing to theme controls and colors? or is it just me? [17:03] I dunno [17:03] for the bug report, should I say it is a security vulnerability since it deals with the ca-certificates-java ? [17:05] Gulfstream: what is your problem? I think I had the same one yesterday [17:05] Gulfstream: have you updated today? [17:05] I just did a partial upgrade [17:06] I uninstalled ca-certificates-java yesterday [17:06] upgraded today [17:06] and reinstalled open jdk [17:06] and it set up the certificates just fine [17:06] so I should reinstall them? [17:07] Gulfstream: it's worth a shot, I think the latest package doesn't break anymore [17:08] okay [17:08] then I'll reboot. Hopefully it will boot. [17:08] Gulfstream: good luck [17:08] :P [17:08] Gulfstream: wait, one sec [17:08] okay [17:08] Gulfstream: is your gnome-settings-daemon failing to theme controls and colors also? [17:09] I think it was while the upgrade was running [17:09] but I don't think it is anymore. What looks weird? [17:10] Gulfstream: unity panel, and all window controls [17:10] Gulfstream: icons and window decorations are fine [17:10] Unity looks OK, the windows decorations look OK, but nautilus looks strange. The search icon is missing [17:10] I should probably reboot for it to work [17:11] shoot, that means it might just be me [17:11] I should reboot and if it looks strange, I'll try to get onto IRC and let you know [17:15] lallenlowe, it happened [17:15] things are completely messed up [17:15] Gulfstream: the theme you mean? [17:15] yes [17:15] kk [17:16] yeah, gnome-settings-daemon is totally ignoring the controls and colors theme [17:16] and wallpaper for that matter [17:16] yup [17:16] I built and installed lp:wallpaper as a temporary workaround, so that it didn't look so confusing [17:18] I'll go back to Natty until things get a bit more stable. [17:19] Gulfstream: oh, you're not a developer? [17:19] lallenlowe, just a curious user [17:19] Gulfstream: ah, yeah, wait at least til alpha 1 [17:19] for testing [17:20] yeah [17:20] so should I reinstall all packages or reinstall natty from a CD? [17:21] Gulfstream: CD [17:22] okay === hallyn is now known as hallyn_afk === hallyn_afk is now known as hallyn [22:29] How will one acquire Gnome-Classic for 11.10? [22:33] magn3ts: they won't [22:33] evening [22:33] IdleOne, what? At all? [22:33] If there is Gnome-shell, why can't they have gnome classic? [22:33] support for the classic desktop will be dropped [22:33] They won't even be able to install it? What about non compositing environments? [22:33] 3h long hours to do regular upgrades!!! [22:33] WOW [22:34] magn3ts: I'm sure there will be a way to install it but it won't be installed default [22:34] IdleOne, I see. [22:34] Also, what is the point of Unity 2D if Compiz can use noncomposited backends? [22:36] I can't even get compiz to work on Classic LOL [22:57] someone on a linux channel elsewhere told me that i should use LTS because of all the bugs in ubuntu's 6 month releases, and that i should check this channel out [22:57] can anyone explain why? [22:59] This channel's for pre-release development versions. Seems like the opposite of what they're saying you should use :\ [22:59] (and personally I'd agree that LTSes are good. no sense updating twice a year, it gets old) [23:16] rww: ty [23:47] hi, any news of oneiric pre alpha? [23:47] https://wiki.edubuntu.org/OneiricOcelot/TechnicalOverview [23:47] its said its possible to get, but it seems not for me... i wonder why... [23:51] jakubo: I think that's a rough draft of the alpha 1 release notes, it won't be ready for another few weeks [23:52] ic... [23:52] you really should not update to pre-alpha [23:52] i did on 10.10 and its still working^^ [23:53] * micahg would like to, but will wait for update-manager to get the hooks in it [23:53] sry i meant "from"