[00:20]  * ckontros waves.
[00:21] <holstein> ckontros: o/
[00:27] <holstein> ckontros: thats great news about the art :)
[00:27] <ckontros> That guy shoulda emailed the user list. The -dev list isnt for support.
[00:28] <ckontros> User list then escalate to -dev if its a bug.
[00:28] <holstein> ckontros: good point
[00:28] <holstein> i didnt notice
[00:28] <holstein> i have them filtered similarly in gmail
[00:29] <ckontros> holstein: re: art. Yeah. It's really early in the process. Just fleshing out details. (what's required and all) I'll make public everything once there's something interesting.
[00:40] <ScottL> hi ckontros 
[00:40] <ScottL> lol holstein, i'm guessing that your icon set comments were because of the email
[00:41] <ScottL> i didn't see it until i was on my way home with my phone
[00:41] <holstein> yeah, i dont mind trying to do something about that
[00:41] <holstein> if its just talking to someone
[00:41] <ScottL> holstein, my guess is that the package in ppa is in pretty good shape but you will probably still need to give it some love to make it ready
[00:42] <ScottL> this wouldn't be just talking to someone to get it in
[00:42] <holstein> well, maybe i can talk someone into it
[00:42] <holstein> :/
[00:42] <ScottL> lol :)
[00:42] <ScottL> you can try, my friend, and i hope you succeed!
[00:42] <holstein> im pretty sure it would take me the cycle to learn to maintain anything
[00:42] <holstein> even an icon set
[00:42] <ScottL> i would really like to get mudita24 into debian and then into ubuntu
[00:42] <holstein> so, thats not going to help
[00:43] <ckontros> Note that the last line in my last icon email shoulda read: " In what *form* will be determined later."
[00:44] <holstein> yeah, maybe we should tackle this stuff in the meetings
[00:45] <holstein> just have a 'we are voting on icons' meeting
[00:45] <holstein> and get it over with
[00:45] <holstein> seems like theres so much room for opinions
[00:45] <holstein> which is fine
[00:46] <ckontros> We're never short on opinions. Just people to *do* things. ;) (story of the project really)
[00:46] <ckontros> And art decisions are easy. *Nobody* will like everything we do. Just how it is. We have other great art out there if folks want it.
[00:47] <holstein> yeah, thats why its so easy to change it all anyways
[00:47] <ScottL> ckontros, is right, getting things done is the problem
[00:47] <ckontros> We need folks to fix bugs and really trouble-shoot problend and post detailed info.
[00:47] <holstein> the art has always looked great though
[00:47] <holstein> im not worried
[00:47] <ScottL> honestly, i'm tired of talking about things in meeting and small groups and then nothing happening
[00:47] <holstein> ckontros: that was all your work before right?
[00:47] <holstein> the look and feel?
[00:47] <holstein> and theme?
[00:47] <holstein> since like 9.04?
[00:48]  * ckontros is all about gettin'-it-done. hehe :P
[00:48] <ckontros> holstein: Theme will get a facelift from the Shimmer guys but colors will remain the same.
[00:49] <ScottL> holstein, i think the theme and art was mostly cory's work, although i believe the wallpaper was something he found
[00:49] <ckontros> ScottL: You get my note about our locked branches? We *need* to fix that shit.
[00:49] <ScottL> correct me if i'm wrong ckontros 
[00:49] <ckontros> I've always found artists for the wallpaper.
[00:49] <ScottL> ckontros, i don't think i got the note, was it pm or email?
[00:49] <holstein> i remember routinely installing the ubuntustudio themes and wallpaper on all my machines for a bit 
[00:50] <ckontros> Everything else I had a heavy hand in creating.
[00:50] <ckontros> ScottL: I noted it in-channel yesterday.
[00:50] <ckontros> We just gotta get ownership back of our branches.
[00:51] <ScottL> ckontros, sorry, my computer is all over the place, it hard locks up every now and then with 11.04 and unity
[00:51] <ckontros> Gotcha
[00:51] <ScottL> and i routinely miss lots of things
[00:51] <ScottL> shhh, don't tell anyone but i'm going to install xubuntu 11.04 on this machine and get rid of unity
[00:52] <ScottL> anyway, ckontros , i'll dig around and see what i can do
[00:52] <ckontros> \m/ I've been diggin'  it.
[00:52] <ckontros> ScottL: Cool
[00:52] <ScottL> i'm running xubuntu upstairs on another machine
[00:52] <ScottL> ckontros, i did find out some stuff from james_w
[00:52] <holstein> im ready for xubuntu 11.10
[00:52]  * ckontros listens
[00:52] <holstein> theres a bug in 11.04 for my wifi hardware
[00:53] <ScottL> the branches under ubuntu are mirrors that are required to actually get the packages into the repos to be included on images
[00:53] <ScottL> james_w says we should still own the stuff under ubuntustudio-dev
[00:53] <ScottL> also, the directories that were coming up when branching from our stuff is correct
[00:54] <ScottL> some of the actually say "UbuntuStudio" instead of "ubuntustudio-menu" or such
[00:54] <ckontros> ScottL: Then someone is gonna have to walk me through it. I have codes to upload to all of our main branches and none work. Even you had an issue right?
[00:54] <ScottL> i'm going to make a silly update and push it either tonight or tomorrow just to validate
[00:54] <ScottL> ckontros, i was having problems with the laptop downstairs (this one), but i don't usually do code on it
[00:55] <ckontros> gotcha
[00:55] <ScottL> if i can't get the one upstairs to work then i'm in the same shit
[00:55] <ScottL> ckontros, but i'm wondering if you need the right or another ssh key?
[00:55]  * ScottL is speculating
[00:56] <ckontros> Naa... I updated everything.
[00:56] <ckontros> Just let me know how your test goes.
[00:58] <ScottL> i'm trying to get the kids settled and then i go upstairs to work on david henningson's email and then i try this upload bidness
[00:59] <ckontros> ScottL: np. Im gonna hang with the fam now anyway. Ill be around tomorrow. No rush.
[01:00] <ckontros> later
[01:01] <ckontros> PM if needed.
[02:20] <ScottL> holstein, did you see stochastic reply to the icon thread?
[02:20] <ScottL> i was surprised that he liked it...but happy about it :)
[02:22] <persia> Re: branches:
[02:22] <persia> So, there's two types of branches for interesting packages.
[02:22] <persia> 1) the branches we had from way long ago.
[02:22] <persia> 2) Branches created based on the uploads to the archive.
[02:22] <persia> These reflect two different ways of maintaining the stuff in bzr.
[02:23] <persia> A) having lots of people commit to the branch, and then a few people we trust to upload process that
[02:23] <persia> B) Having the people who commit to the branch and the people who can upload it be the same people.
[02:24] <persia> Given the distributed nature of bzr, style B is recommended, which then works best if one has the primary branch of the packages of interest be of type 2
[02:24] <persia> (with a future goal of having a commit to that branch auto-upload into the archive)
[02:24] <persia> So, the easy way to make sure that the folk working on stuff can work on those is as follows:
[02:25] <persia> 1) Verification of the set of packages of interest (typically these would be everything in Ubuntu Studio not in something else)
[02:25] <persia> 2) Request to the DMB to make a packageset for these associated with a group in LP
[02:26] <persia> 3) Members that we trust to make changes to these packages are confirmed by the DMB to be members of this group.
[02:27] <persia> Note that in addition to being able to commit to the branches, this also grants upload to the archive, which may mean things should be thought about differently.
[03:02] <ScottL> persia, "this also grants upload to the archive", interesting, i was going to applying for either per-package upload rights or try to get ubuntustudio-dev recognized as an upload team
[03:03] <persia> I'd recommend the latter.  Having that happen was always part of the original plan (at least since the UDS for Intrepid), but until now, there's been no candidate for whom it is useful.
[03:05] <ScottL> the later was supposed to be "delegated team" for a "package set"
[03:05] <ScottL> i notice that kubuntu, mythbuntu and edubuntu are already there
[03:05] <persia> Right.
[03:06] <persia> Also xubuntu, ubuntu desktop, and ubuntu server
[03:06] <persia> Ubuntu Studio is the only one outstanding (and Lubuntu, but they're still putting the finishing touches on being official)
[03:08] <ScottL> i decided that i (at least) needed to work on acquiring upload rights because this cycle should be pretty involved and i didn't want to keep bugging you and luke
[03:08] <ScottL> i thought also cory should have it as well
[03:10] <persia> You're getting close to having enough work recorded on launchpad to be able to be granted rights, although you'll have to write a good wiki page talking about some of the more complicated stuff you've done, etc.
[03:11] <persia> Looking at https://launchpad.net/~coryisatm/+related-software, I don't believe I'd be prepared to support upload rights on current history: some more recent work needs doing, and some more volume.
[03:12] <persia> Getting the packageset approved ought be fairly easy, and I suspect that all of Luke, Alessio, and I would be happy to be the initial members.
[03:13] <persia> (maybe other folk also, but those names spring instantly to mind)
[03:14] <persia> For you, I'd recommend a few more uploads, and careful documentation of your habit of doing bugfix work in Debian and your work in backports (so that people aren't wondering about how little you do).
[03:15] <ScottL> that is good because of some of the requirements delineated in the wiki
[03:15] <ScottL> ^^^ "I suspect that all of Luke, Alessio, and I would be happy to be the initial members"
[04:09] <ScottL> persia, i think there will be several more uploads in the coming months for oneiric ;)
[04:10] <ScottL> and i will work on documentation
[04:10] <ScottL> when i applied for membership, someone commented on the depth of my documentation
[04:10] <ScottL> i believe i simply replied, "persia told me to documention _everything_"
[04:10] <ScottL> which i pretty much had at that point
[04:16] <persia> Documenting _everything_ is good.  waiting so long that people wonder why you have too much documentation is not so good :)
[04:18] <persia> But, yeah, the list of LP uploads is close to the minimum I expect for upload applicants: but the list fails to show stuff like your deep efforts with seeds, tasks, and metapackages, your bugfix collaboration with debian-multimedia, etc.
[10:09]  * abogani waves all
[11:59] <ScottL> hi abogani 
[11:59] <ScottL> i was talking with persia yesterday about the -lowlatency kernel
[11:59] <ScottL> he is quite keen on getting it into the repos
[12:00] <ScottL> abogani, my plan is to package and maintain it, are you still up to helping me as we discussed previously?
[12:00]  * ScottL is leaving for work, see you as scott-work in thirty minutes
[12:54] <abogani> scott-work: Yes I'm going to help you in any way I know. Please consider that I can't stand to interact with UKT.
[12:54] <abogani> scott-work: Got it?
[12:54] <scott-work> abogani: ack'd
[12:54] <abogani> scott-work: Ok.
[12:55] <scott-work> abogani: much earlier i suspected your frustration (at least some of it) originated from this and wanted to insert myself between the two as a buffer
[12:56] <abogani> scott-work: I prefer interact with upstream.
[12:56] <scott-work> i am quite happy to serve as a liaison or intermediary with UKT :)
[12:56] <abogani> scott-work: Fi that makes you happy ;)
[12:56] <abogani> *if
[12:57] <abogani> scott-work: We have to decide about the Natty' version of lowlatency kernel. We continue to provide 2.6.38? Or we move on to 2.6.39 only?
[12:57] <scott-work> while i am unsure if the actual interaction will give me please, i certainly know that help you will
[12:58] <scott-work> getting a greatly needed kernel into the repos will make me happy as well
[12:58] <abogani> scott-work: I'm not updated about -lowlatency kernel: Is it so useful?
[12:58] <scott-work> abogani: do you see a reason for not providing 2.6.39 in natty?
[12:59] <scott-work> abogani: yes!  the tests that ailo and i have done show that we can half the stable latencies with the -lowlatency over the -generic
[12:59] <abogani> scott-work: Impressive.
[12:59] <abogani> scott-work: Re 2.6.30: No but I can't be use that closed video drivers still working.
[13:00] <abogani> *39
[13:00] <scott-work> abogani: given that 2.6.9 allows for adjusting irq priorities i would greatly recommend it, unless there is a substantial reason not to
[13:00] <scott-work> maybe ailo can offer some input because i general don't use closed drivers (my card is too old to be supported :(  )
[13:01] <abogani> I vote for move on 2.6.39 (and discard 2.6.38 because don't worth doubling the work).
[13:02] <scott-work> abogani: agreed :)
[13:02] <abogani> scott-work: Ok. Next week I'll release the git repo.
[13:02] <scott-work> abogani: so our plan would be to get the -lowlatency for natty and oneiric based on 2.6.39, am i misunderstanding any point?
[13:03] <abogani> scott-work: No. It is exactly what I would want do.
[13:04] <abogani> scott-work: Is it understandable my English today?
[13:04] <scott-work> abogani: absolutely!
[13:05]  * abogani has a big headache ...
[13:05] <scott-work> my question was less about the language used as it was understanding our expectations of what we intend to accomplish
[13:05] <scott-work> oh, sorry about your headache...i had one last week too   :/
[13:06] <abogani> scott-work: Very annoying
[13:06] <abogani> scott-work:  Have you heard? quadrispo is a core developer now.
[13:06] <scott-work> abogani: yes!  that is awesome!
[13:07] <scott-work> that is quite an achievement :)
[13:07] <abogani> scott-work: Really!
[13:13]  * scott-work still desires to learn more about packaging to package a new application from scratch and get it into the repositories
[13:18] <scott-work> i had thought about trying my hand at mudita (the eny24control revision) but i want to get it into debian/ubuntu for oneiric if possible
[13:19] <scott-work> but there is still nano-bucket (a Korg NanoKontroller editor) or butt (if it's not done already) that i can see about when i have more time, maybe towards the end of this cycle
[13:24] <scott-work> persia: are you available for a few minutes to discuss direct plans for getting ubuntustudio-dev as a delegated team and also about my inclusion into that team?
[13:25]  * scott-work considers that this may be two separate processes
[14:15] <persia> scott-work, Sure.
[14:17] <persia> (or maybe I missed you).
[14:18] <persia> Anyway, I'll be around for a bit, and I'll check back in my morning.
[14:25] <scott-work> persia: i'm still here for the moment but i need to step out for a few hours
[14:26] <persia> With luck that will match my sleep well :)  Let's catch up later.
[14:27] <scott-work> i hope to review the following in the mean time:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers/TeamDelegation   https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/ApplicationProcess    https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArchiveReorganisation/Permissions
[14:30] <persia> Those are the best documents to the current state.  You may also want to look at the devel-permissions archives for some of the other packageset team requests.
[17:33] <scott-work> persia: i have looked through the devel-permissions archives and booked what i thought was appropriate
[17:33] <scott-work> there is a lot to absorb given the span of these documents so i would like to better familiarize myself with them and then i would like to continue our discussion about this
[17:35] <scott-work> however, the documents seems to indicate that ubuntu studio is an almost recognized delegation team and the remaining task would be to identify the packages for our package set
[19:22] <ckontros> yo
[19:46] <scott-work> hi ckontros 
[19:48] <ckontros> scott-work: Do we currently build our disks w/o recommends?
[19:51] <scott-work> ckontros: i don't know
[19:51] <scott-work> we can either ask emmett/luke or check a package
[19:56] <ckontros> scott-work: It will be important as AWN pulls a bunch of GNOME stuff. Well AWN pulls applets that then pull GNOME stuff rather.
[19:59] <scott-work> ckontros: right, i would look at a few packages in synaptic and see what they recommend and see if it is installed on ubuntu studio....i can do that tonight
[19:59] <scott-work> i would be kinda shooting in the dark, but i think it wouldn't take too long
[19:59]  * scott-work has been wrong before though ;)
[20:00] <ckontros> ;)
[20:41] <persia> Images are built with recommends.
[20:42] <ckontros> persia: Do you know if you can specify packages to not pull recommends?
[20:42] <persia> Recommends is defined as "These packages would be installed in all but unusual situations", and we assume that a first-install of a new machine isn't unusual.
[20:42] <persia> Intentionally not.
[20:42] <persia> The usual practice is to adjust recommends if we believe the current set not to be semantically correct.
[20:42] <ckontros> Hmm... Might have to file some bugs then.
[20:43] <persia> scott-work, Yeah: everything is in place except the request.  Unless there's some strong reason to do otherwise, flavour sets are typically derived from seeds.
[20:44] <persia> ckontros, If you're just moving Recommends to Suggests, may as well push a bundle of patches: probably about the same amount of work as filing the bug, and more likely to get sorted soon.
[20:44] <ckontros> Installing avant-window-navigator pulls the recommended applets. One of them is awn-applet-cairo-main-menu that pulls a bunch of GNOME depends.
[20:45] <persia> That probably needs investigation and detangling.
[20:45] <ckontros> Also, awn-settings depends on BZR and I can't gigure out why.
[20:45] <ckontros> *figure
[20:45] <persia> Unless you suggest that having a menu is unusual.
[20:47] <ckontros> persia: awn-applet-cairo-main-menu works great without needing to pull the gconf, gnome-menu and others.
[20:47] <ckontros> I'm casually talking to the AWN guys. I'll try to untangle it with them.
[20:48] <persia> Bug #707863 may interest you
[20:48] <ubottu> Launchpad bug 707863 in Awn "AWN depends on bzr" [Low,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/707863
[20:49] <persia> You might also want to talk to gilit, who seems to be working on similar goals :)
[20:49] <ckontros> Noted
[20:49] <persia> Err, gilir
[20:50] <persia> awn-applet-cairo-main-menu has a hard-depends on gconf: that needs code investigation.
[20:50] <ckontros> I'll file a bug, and talk to upstream. I know the cario menu is gonna have XFCE support soon also.
[20:50] <persia> I don't see why it's pulling gnome-menu: it should only need libgnome-menu2 (which doesn't pull gnome-menu)
[20:51] <ckontros> persia: I installed it with --no-install-recommends and seems to work fine in XFCE.
[20:51] <persia> And probably LXDE support (given the current focus of gilir's work in Ubuntu)
[20:51] <ckontros> Agreed
[20:51] <persia> The trick is figuring out *what* recommends it.
[20:53] <ckontros> Yeah. Its something down the line.
[20:54] <ckontros> Hopefully I can work with then to get it as desktop agnostic as possible.
[20:54] <ckontros> s/then/them
[20:58] <persia> It ought be relatively easy to sort, but when sorting, be sure that e.g. gnome-menu is pulled some other way for folks trying to use it (assuming it doesn't just bitrot)
[22:05]  * falktx mailed the US-list about his pulse-jack script