[01:07] <rww> dealing with it ^
[01:33] <LjL> oh lord now we get questions about software center-purchased software
[01:33] <LjL> kill me
[01:33] <rww> Indeed. I'm considering buying one just to see whether it's as screwy as buying from U1MS was for me.
[01:33] <Jordan_U> LjL: Why?
[01:34] <LjL> because i'm not in #ubuntu to answer (or see) questions about purchased software
[01:34] <LjL> i can go to plenty other places for that :(
[01:34] <persia> We probably need to develop a general strategy for dealing with applications designed for Ubuntu that aren't *in* Ubuntu.
[01:35] <LjL> agreed
[01:35] <persia> Some are free, some are non-free.  Some cost, some don't cost.  Anyway, needs a plan
[01:36] <LjL> thing is, being a volunteer *for the community* is all well and good, being a support person for paid software wasn't in the contract :P
[01:36] <persia> For development, we ended up creating #ubuntu-packaging for people who want to package for PPAs rathe than for Ubuntu, and #ubuntu-app-devel for people who want to develop for Ubuntu, rather than developing Ubuntu.
[01:36] <persia> I expect we need equivalents on the support side.
[01:37] <persia> LjL: I'm *not* suggesting that you, personally, should support anything you don't want to support, rather that I think we can avoid arguments about who supports what if there is differentiation in support channels.
[01:37] <LjL> persia: yes i agree
[01:39] <LjL> persia: #ubuntu-software is free, for the record. first name i could think of that seemed sensible.
[01:40] <persia> Are there parellel channels for other operating systems?
[01:40] <LjL> persia: what do you mean, like #gentoo-software?
[01:41] <persia> I was thinking of Mac OS or Android forums where folk support addons.
[01:41] <persia> Microsoft doesn't ship enough by default, and has too wide a market share to usefully use as an example for this.
[01:41] <LjL> persia: i doubt it. but you see it's a bit different, other OS's don't necessarily have a "this is part of it" and "this is not" distinction
[01:42] <LjL> persia: also, Mac channels are already supporting a proprietary/paid OS in the first place so they may as well support the rest
[01:42] <LjL> persia: #android is well, not a great channel with great rules in place
[01:43] <LjL> and other Linux distributions likely haven't encountered this issue yet, either because they only ship free software or because they haven't started shipping paid software yet, i guess
[01:43] <persia> We don't ship paid software either.
[01:44] <LjL> well, paid software being in Software Center seems close enough to me
[01:44] <persia> We just ship tools that allow folk to download paid software.  Other folk do this also: linspire was a fairly widely discussed example.
[01:44] <persia> See, that's why we need a general strategy: we need to all agree on what is and isn't part of Ubuntu if we want to be successful in deciding what to support.
[01:46] <LjL> persia: even then, i'm fine with occasionally helping people in #Ubuntu install software that's not in the repos and get it running (though for the specifics of that software's usage, they really should refer to other places). i wouldn't want that ability to go away either. but at the same time i don't want people to think that because something "is in Ubuntu" (to them, as normal users, software in Software Center "is in Ubuntu"), it'll be supported by #
[01:46] <LjL> ubuntu even if it's paid and everything
[01:46] <LjL> anyway it's past bedtime for me, we'll continue this discussion another day maybe
[01:47] <persia> Right, which is why we need semantics.
[01:47] <persia> Sleep well :)
[01:47] <LjL> thanks
[01:47] <persia> Oh, and just to be clear, I very much believe we need to support *software centre*, but once folks install things, if those things are not part of Ubuntu, I'm not sure we need to support them.  Yes this is confusing, hence the need for a plan.
[01:52] <IdleOne> isn't the software that is paid for supported by canonical?
[01:52] <persia> I don't believe that is a requirement.  Maybe it happens to be true today.
[01:53] <persia> I know sofdtware center supports arbitrary "Channels", so that anyone can add a Channel.  I think there is no thing limiting people from adding paid things (although I believe they would be expected to use the Canonical payment service)
[01:54] <IdleOne> for the record I agree that the paid software should be supported in some other channel other than #ubuntu.
[01:54] <IdleOne> the devs of that software are being paid I don't think it unreasonable to expect them to support it also
[01:57] <persia> I don't really care if the devs are getting paid, or if they are donating all proceeds to the campaign to eradicate malaria: to me the important part is that random stuff in Software Center isn't being supported by the Ubuntu Developers, so the social conventions we have to coordinate between support teams, triage/testing teams, and development teams fails to cover those applications.
[02:00] <persia> Conversely, I'm more than happy to help e.g. the Sugar team do their stuff: many of them get paid, but they produce free software and collaborate with Ubuntu, rather than just using Ubuntu as a delivery platform.
[02:07] <rww> As far as I'm concerned, if it's in main, restricted, universe, or multiverse, it's in the scope of #ubuntu. Anything outside of that is not Ubuntu and thus offtopic for #ubuntu *shrug*
[02:08] <rww> oh, maybe also partners. Though I don't go in depth with that personally since things in partners give me a headache.
[02:08] <rww> but yeah, I agree we need to hash out the details of all this.
[02:08] <persia> rww: I share your mental model: I still think we need a good place for the rest of the folks to go.  If we send everyone to the same place, and there are enough of them, they will develop a community.
[02:11] <rww> I'm conflicted about whether it's a good idea, but I see your point.
[02:12] <persia> Like I said, it worked for the development channels.  I'm not sure if it works for the support channels: I have opinions, but only the support teams can decide what works for them.
[03:59] <rww> Okay, so Virtualbox and Ubuntu are being silly together, but I got through to actually buying something (for $0), and here are the things that I have discovered:
[04:00] <rww> 1) I still dislike software center, 2) The way this works is that you pay and then get given a private PPA subscription tied to your Launchpad account. For people in the Ubuntu Font beta, it's like that was.
[04:00] <rww> 3) I guess on-reinstall you just re-add the private PPA and install the relevant package
[04:01] <Jordan_U> rww: Is there an interface via launchpad for recovering the PPA links, or does there appear to be some other way to access your paid applications after a re-install (if you didn't save the information)?
[04:01] <rww> So basically, it's all through LP, presumably payment issues are Canonical's problem like they are with U1MS, and you can get software again after a reinstall.
[04:02] <rww> Jordan_U: https://launchpad.net/~rww/+archivesubscriptions , with the obvious substitution
[04:02] <rww> I think there's a way to make LP URLs redirect to your actual username, but I forget
[04:03] <rww> oh, there we go. http://launchpad.net/people/+me/+archivesubscriptions/
[04:04] <rww> and in case you want to play with it yourself, the $0 game I got was Vendetta Online. It has a demo period or something.
[04:05] <rww> (it's still downloading and presumably won't work in vbox anyway)
[04:11] <persia> Why not?  VBox ticket 475 was fixed about a year ago.
[04:11] <rww> 02:59 <+rww> Okay, so Virtualbox and Ubuntu are being silly together
[04:11] <rww> which it is entirely likely is user error, but w/e.
[04:12] <persia> Oh, heh :)
[04:12] <rww> plus the host is Debian without non-free firmware, which my Radeon needs to be at all good at 3D stuff, so...
[04:18] <highvoltage> open source driver is plenty enough for video and compiz
[04:18] <highvoltage> (I guess not so much for games though)
[04:19] <rww> Debian + Free Software driver + lack of firmware-linux-nonfree = lol.
[04:19] <Jordan_U> highvoltage: Without the firmware though you don't get any DRI even with the open drivers.
[04:19] <rww> it's an odd situation.
[04:22] <rww> aaaaannndddd the VM just hung. lol.
[04:23] <Jordan_U> rww: I've found kvm (if your processor supports it) plays much more nicely with Ubuntu (out of the box at least).
[04:24] <Jordan_U> Both as a host and as a guest.
[04:31] <highvoltage> Jordan_U: ok, weird. I got good 3d performance with my radeon x1250 with the open source radeon driver and (to the best of my knowledge) I didn't have the firmware installed.
[04:32] <Jordan_U> highvoltage: Ubuntu and older versions of Debian (and upstream linux kernel) come with the proprietary firmware by default.
[04:33] <highvoltage> Jordan_U: ah, that would explain it
[04:41] <rww> and according to $random_user in #ubuntu, the PPA method above isn't used by at least one of those paid apps. So that's fun.
[04:50]  * Jordan_U wishes there were a way to remove marks in the ban tracker so they didn't clutter my list of unremoved bans
[07:52] <jussi> FYI
[07:52] <jussi> !kppa
[07:56] <ikonia> why does kubuntu need it's own factoid
[07:56] <ikonia> they are the same ppa's as ubuntu are they not ?
[08:05] <jussi> no
[08:05] <ikonia> how are they different ?
[08:09] <jussi> hang on a sec, work.
[08:09] <ikonia> no problem, just curious
[08:14] <jussi> Yeah, so a fair while back, the Kubuntu team was providing updates only via these's PPA's. Now, these PPA's are the offical kubuntu PPA's and used for testing or updating your system - many kubuntu users use them, hence the factoid. Id suggest a read of: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/UpdatesPolicy and the thread at  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/kubuntu-devel/2009-September/003272.html as well as the url in the factoid.
[08:24] <ikonia> but they are the same actual ppas as the ubuntu ones, same process, same actual repos etc
[08:26] <Tm_T> ikonia: same actual ppas as the ubuntu ones?
[08:31] <ikonia> as in kubuntu/ubuntu/xubuntu shares the same ppa infrastrucutre/process/files
[08:33] <Tm_T> I'm confused
[08:33] <Tm_T> I think we are talking about different things (:
[08:33] <tsimpson> not sure what you mean there, the Kubuntu PPAs are for Qt/KDE packages, all hosted on Launchpad
[08:34] <tsimpson> they are separate from the "normal" ubuntu repositories
[08:34] <Tm_T> so yes, same technical ppa but the packages is the thing here, not how they are done or shared
[08:41] <ikonia> yes, I'm trying to understand the difference between a PPA for ubuntu and a PPA for kde
[08:41] <persia> In some sense, those PPAs aren't Ubuntu.  In another sense, they are similar to the GNOME3 PPA: ways that Ubuntu devs deliver newer upstreams than could fit in a release.
[08:41] <jussi> the point of the factoid is for letting people know about the Kubuntu PPA's and their use, similar to the way we have factoids for other "bleeding edge" software talking about the ppa's.
[08:41] <jussi> persia: hi. and exactly :)
[08:42] <ikonia> ah, so it's not the mechanism, it's the change in policy
[08:42] <jussi> yes.
[08:42] <persia> What?  What change in policy?
[08:42]  * persia gets worried
[08:44] <tsimpson> ikonia: it's a Kubuntu PPA in the sense than it's 1) maintained by the Kubuntu developers and 2) is Qt/KDE specific, PPAs are just easier/quicker/better than doing everything in -updates/-backports
[08:45] <persia> s/better/less trustworthy, limited in ways like not working on my or Tm_T's computers, and other bad things/
[08:46] <tsimpson> better for normal people anyway ;)
[08:46] <jussi> persia: This has been around for a a good while now...
[08:46] <Tm_T> well yes, PPA lacking PowerPC support is a long minus (;
[08:46] <persia> jussi, I know.  I just object to anyone calling PPAs "better".
[08:46] <jussi> hehe
[08:47] <jussi> just depends on your point of view I guess
[08:47] <Tm_T> better in some cases, not just "better."
[08:47] <tsimpson> LP has had bugs filed about not supporting PPC (and some other archs) in PPA for a long time
[08:47] <Tm_T> I would assume it's about resources too
[08:48] <Tm_T> PPC builders are often rather occupied even without PPA
[08:48] <persia> It's more about nobody making hardware that could run the builders these days.
[08:48] <Tm_T> persia: that's partly what I mean by resources (:
[08:48] <tsimpson> the PPAs are just VMs, so it's restricted to the intel/amd archs
[08:49] <jussi> I thought the PPA's did arm also??
[08:49] <Tm_T> tsimpson: I would imagine if there were resources, there would be a possibility to have PPC builds for PPAs too for requested projects or such
[08:50] <Tm_T> back to harvesting materials ->
[08:50] <persia> tsimpson, 1) KVM works fine on my G4.  2) See http://dmtechtalk.wordpress.com/ for ways to do it without VMs.  3) I can't find the URL, but see zulcss's documetnation of using LXC on armel to host the OpenStack cloud stuff.
[08:51] <tsimpson> hmm, true
[08:52] <persia> jussi, It gets complicated.  Some people have PPAs that can build on the regular builders (so can do powerpc/armel).  Some people have access to a couple special armel PPA builders.  The other 15,000 PPAs are i386/armel only.
[08:52] <tsimpson> IDK, normal buildd's have twice the archs as PPA buildd's
[08:53] <tsimpson> there are 2 armal and 2 lpia builders, so I guess they aren't used in "normal" PPAs
[08:53] <persia> I think the lpia ones are leftovers to support hardy.
[08:54] <persia> From what I've heard, the armel ones are restricted to a few special PPAs (like the Texas Instruments PPA, where they work on their free software stack)
[08:54] <tsimpson> I guess they add to the normal builders near release time too
[08:55] <persia> Well, no.
[08:56] <persia> The configuration is far too different, and not being virtual, non-trivial to swap to other behaviour.
[08:57] <tsimpson> no, I mean the normal armel builders
[08:58] <persia> I mean that I'm fairly sure the 2 armel PPA buildds don't become distro buildds around release time because it would be lots of work and the folks that need to do that work are terribly busy with other release-time things.
[08:59] <tsimpson> the other PPA builders do
[09:00] <tsimpson> anywho... :)
[09:00] <persia> Yes, they do.  They are all just VMs, so it's trivial to repurpose the hardware (using VM admin tool of choice, shut down undesired VM, start up desired VM, get coffee)
[09:00] <persia> Yes, anywho :)
[09:01] <Tm_T> Who? any!
[09:01]  * Tm_T hides
[13:47] <bazhang> launchpad has linuxmint bugs filed under ubuntu?
[13:47] <bazhang> https://bugs.launchpad.net/linuxmint/+bug/780769
[13:48] <jussi> that appears to be filed under linux mint, no?
[13:49] <bazhang> the bot says "ubuntu bug"
[13:49] <jussi> thats a bot bug, not an LP bug :)
[13:49] <jussi> !bug | bazhang
[13:49] <jussi> PLease file it :)
[18:37] <UndiFineD> o/
[18:40] <persia> Hey UndiFineD
[18:41] <UndiFineD> hey hello persia
[18:41] <UndiFineD> I heard good things about you
[18:41] <persia> What's up?
[18:41] <persia> (thanks)
[18:43] <UndiFineD> I had been talking with LjL, topyli, and popey about getting a link to our survey up in #ubuntu , we decided to wait until it was up at the planet and ubuntuforums as well
[18:43] <UndiFineD> so that has been arranged now :)
[18:57] <ikonia> survey ?
[18:59] <UndiFineD> http://castrojo.tumblr.com/post/5766647068
[19:02] <ikonia> just filled it in for you, but what are you looking to do with it in #ubuntu ?
[19:02] <UndiFineD> to get it into the topic
[19:05] <UndiFineD> http://pastebin.com/FWid67SN
[19:05] <UndiFineD> that is the previous conversation about  it
[19:30] <ikonia> I guess it's going to come down to the council, personally, I don't think anything should be advertised in #ubuntu - that#s not it's function,
[19:33] <UndiFineD> I know, I am only trying because they offered it .. as you can read I was spamming the url in several channels and then they asked me to come here
[19:34] <UndiFineD> so I was just as suprised by the offer
[19:34] <ikonia> are you doing this for your own personal interest / project or as something to do with canonical ?
[19:34] <UndiFineD> I only do this for ubuntu adverts, the result from the research will be published to the community
[19:35] <ikonia> ubuntu adverts ?
[19:35] <ikonia> what is that
[19:36] <UndiFineD> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuAdverts
[19:36] <UndiFineD> a replacement for the somewhat dead marketing team
[19:36] <ikonia> why is there still an active #ubuntu-marketing team channel
[19:37] <UndiFineD> I dont know.. as far as I can tell nothing is done there anymore
[19:38] <ikonia> I actually find your wiki page offensive
[19:38] <UndiFineD> why is that ?
[19:38] <ikonia> and really quite insulting, considering you're supposed to be doing marketing - I think your content is a disgrace to present on the public internet
[19:39] <ikonia> you offer empathy for windows users, think of them has horders who's hoarding damages relationships
[19:39] <ikonia> windows users can "upgrade" to ubuntu
[19:39] <ikonia> so bascially you're name calling and instuling people who use windows
[19:39] <ikonia> you call ubuntu an "upgrade"
[19:40] <ikonia> this is the public information you're putting out to people in the name of ubuntu - I finding it a disgrace
[19:41] <ikonia> I'm finding it a disgrace I should say
[19:41] <ikonia> looks like a bunch of people rubbishing childishly other operating systems and making wide claims about ubuntu
[19:41] <ikonia> sorry, but if you're calling yourself adverts/marketing - you should know better
[19:42] <UndiFineD> well, that is not my intention .. I have worked with almost any OS out there
[19:42] <ikonia> if that's not your intention, you should think more about what you are putting on the public internet in the name of ubuntu
[19:42] <ikonia> rather than utter tosh,
[19:43] <UndiFineD> so if you could point me to the "upgrade" wording
[19:43] <ikonia> I'm genuinly offended that you're doing it in the name of ubuntu
[19:43] <ikonia> Educating Windows users after their upgrade to Ubuntu.
[19:44] <UndiFineD> ok, I got it
[19:44] <ikonia> based on this content I have serious worried about the rest of your non-published material
[19:44] <ikonia> Improve consumer confidence that their printer/scanner/music player will work with Ubuntu without problems
[19:44] <ikonia> do you know all the supported devices ?
[19:44] <ikonia> do you know the limitations ?
[19:45] <UndiFineD> yes I know there are limitations
[19:45] <ikonia> do you know them all
[19:45] <ikonia> (or at least the main ones)
[19:45] <ikonia> do you have them documented
[19:45] <ikonia> because this is stuff you are saying on the public interenet as fact
[19:46] <ikonia> I cannot believe you actually put this on a marketing web page
[19:46] <ikonia> Encourage empathy for Windows users - one example is to think of Win users as like hoarders whose OS experiences negatively impact their relationships
[19:47] <ikonia> I'm tempted to write a letter of complaint about this
[19:47] <ikonia> and you have the balls to "educate hardware suppliers"
[19:47] <ikonia> not very happy at all with this page
[19:48] <ikonia> who is the leader of this team ?
[19:48] <UndiFineD> hmmm
[19:49] <UndiFineD> I think mattgriffin is the driving force atm
[19:49] <ikonia> he works for canonical yes ?
[19:49] <UndiFineD> yes
[19:49] <ikonia> then he should know better, and I will be writing a letter on it
[19:50] <UndiFineD> mind if I copy this conversation to him >?
[19:50] <ikonia> this foolish desire to "convert" people
[19:50] <ikonia> it's this sort of stupidity that does more harm than good
[19:50] <ikonia> just make a good OS, stop trying to push stuff on people
[19:51] <rww> While we're airing things, and since you didn't reply to my question the other day about who I should contact, your survey asks for peoples' gender. Not only is this pointless, it also reinforces the concept that there are only two genders, that people who do not identify as one of them are problematic, that gender is important to computing use, and other such issues.
[19:51] <rww> These are assumptions that you should perhaps reconsider, since they are not accurate.
[19:51] <ikonia> rww: the whole thing stinks of another team that's not thought through, has no / little experience in what they are doing and are acting in the name of ubuntu
[19:53] <UndiFineD> rww, it is an interesting fact, the previous estimate of 2,5 procent female users will have to be adjusted, very likely to 10%
[19:53] <ikonia> why does it matter ?
[19:54] <rww> UndiFineD: Your survey has myriad issues that make it statistically useless, so no, it will not.
[19:54] <ikonia> why not ask for your sexuality or your height
[19:54] <ikonia> it's equally as random
[19:54] <ikonia> and useles
[19:54] <ikonia> s
[19:54] <ikonia> sorry to have a go on this, but you're acting in the name of an ubuntu team, and this falls well bellow what I think people representing ubuntu teams should be putting out on the public internet
[19:54] <charlie-tca> I disagree with that idea
[19:54] <UndiFineD> so we have #ubuntu-women for no reason ?
[19:55] <ikonia> UndiFineD: no, for women to get involved in a seperate team/group
[19:55] <charlie-tca> If a goal is to increase the number of female users, one must know where you are starting to know if it increased in the future
[19:55] <rww> UndiFineD: I'm not sure what #ubuntu-women has to do with the apparent fact that you didn't consult anyone who knows anything about statistics or gender before making claims.
[19:55] <ikonia> why do you want to increase the number of female users ? or male users,
[19:56] <charlie-tca> The ultimate goal would be to have as many of each, instead of 98% male users
[19:56] <rww> But anyways, I have to go. Just wanted to throw that out there, since it annoyed me and is why I didn't complete that survey.
[19:57] <persia> Let's not get sidetracked on gender issues.  They are hopelessly complex.
[19:57] <ikonia> charlie-tca: the goal is to just have happy users,
[19:57] <persia> If *any* group is under-represented, we're doing it wrong, but concentrating on who we have, or
[19:57] <charlie-tca> I don't believe that is correct. I have seen several times that it was brought up we want a mix, not an entire base of one gender
[19:58] <persia> who we want quickly gets drowned in confusing arguments.
[19:58] <ikonia> charlie-tca: then that is someone elses fantasy
[19:58] <charlie-tca> I will agree to disagree with you on that
[19:58] <ikonia> sure
[19:58] <UndiFineD> ikonia, thanks for your insight, you are welome to help us if you like
[19:59] <ikonia> I don't see any value to what you're doing personally
[20:00] <topyli> can we please calm down and be civil. my backlog is terrible :)
[20:00] <maco> charlie-tca: the trouble is the survey isn't actually statistically valid for how many women use or are involved with ubuntu
[20:01] <UndiFineD> well ikonia, you are the only one who has expressed these comments until now, and I like strong opinions :)
[20:01] <maco> charlie-tca: you need a random sample for that and "people who voluntarily fill out a survey on the internet and are willing to give out personal details x, y, and z" is not random
[20:01] <topyli> problems are there to be fixed
[20:01] <charlie-tca> Well, maybe someone could help them rather than just rant at them
[20:02] <ikonia> or maybe they could think about what they are putting on the internet in the name of ubuntu
[20:02] <topyli> this might actually help, but it might as well be nice
[20:02] <maco> charlie-tca: i dont think it's possible to get a survey of a random sample of *all users*  -- a survey of well-defined group such as ubuntu members or developers would be possible
[20:02] <CarlFK> charlie-tca: who is the 'them' that is being ranted at?
[20:02] <ikonia> CarlFK: I'm ranting at the group running the team
[20:03] <charlie-tca> UndiFineD being ranted at by ikonia for over an hour?
[20:03] <charlie-tca> instead of offering to help.
[20:03] <ikonia> charlie-tca: I don't have to help
[20:03] <UndiFineD> I have a thick skin :) I hope positive things will come from this
[20:03] <ikonia> but I find the content of the page offensive
[20:04] <CarlFK> ikonia: you should help them find something else to do :)
[20:04] <ikonia> I think a group of people using the name ubuntu and marketing/advertising should know better
[20:04] <charlie-tca> no, you don't. But ranting at the wrong person will not do anything, will it?
[20:04] <ikonia> he's not the wrong person
[20:04] <ikonia> he's a member of the team
[20:04] <ikonia> UndiFineD: apologies, I assumed you are male
[20:04] <UndiFineD> you are correct
[20:05] <ikonia> phew
[20:05] <UndiFineD> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UndiFineD
[20:05] <UndiFineD> CarlFK, I do not need something else to do
[20:06] <ikonia> a very impressive page
[20:06] <topyli> should this discussion move to another channel like #marketing, or your new channel? people might need this channel to resolve bans and such on-topic stuff
[20:07] <ikonia> topyli: that's my fault, sorry
[20:07] <maco> i do agree with rww that you *really* ought to fix the "gender" question to be more open-ended
[20:07] <UndiFineD> ikonia, I am only doing my part where i can
[20:07] <CarlFK> what #chan are we moving to?
[20:08] <topyli> UndiFineD: ^
[20:08] <UndiFineD> #ubuntu-advert
[20:08] <UndiFineD> #ubuntu-adverts
[23:54] <LjL> see what the "no support" nonsense non-policy creates in #ubuntu-offtopic: [00:49:56] <waxrose_> engammalsko, This is not a support channel so any thing in relation to Ubuntu should be in #ubuntu.