[07:17] http://www.reghardware.com/2011/05/23/review_exhibitions_british_library_out_of_this_world/ [08:01] AlanBell: oooh [08:22] Morning all [08:52] hello [08:59] Morning all [08:59] Two interesting links for you all this morning: [08:59] http://weatherspark.com/#!graphs;a=UK/Farnham [09:00] And http://www.boingboing.net/2011/05/20/watch-a-landslide-ha.html (watch the short video) and listen to Benny Hill music at the same time. [09:07] aloha [09:09] morning czajkowski [09:09] Morning peeps [09:09] \o [09:15] AlanBell: what happened with the monitors eventually? ;) Got 3 of em? [09:16] wow, ubuntu asked me for my password 11 times after logging in - thats a new record [09:16] Well, it is Monday... [09:17] mornin [09:17] Montag ist Schontag biggie ;-) [09:17] Heh [09:17] gord: it's making sure you're fully awake [09:21] i'll just turn off auto-login, its not achieving what i set out to achieve ;) [09:21] * AlanBell suggests gord writes his password on a postit note [09:25] Anyone here use Kubuntu? [09:27] http://tumbleweed.popey.com/ [09:27] Aww [09:27] One of the uupc presenters does afaik [09:27] TheOpenSourcerer: why am I looking at that weather page about farnham? [09:27] yes, Mark does [09:28] That's the fella :) [09:28] Couldn't remember his name [09:28] What's his channel nick? [09:29] marxjohnson [09:29] thanks popey [09:29] wintellect: or ask in #kubuntu [09:29] * wintellect slaps himself in the face [09:29] czajkowski: thanks, stupid of me not to have checked for a #kubuntu first [09:29] will do that first [09:30] wintellect: no worries :) [09:30] you'll just find more users there possibly though some may be in here also [09:30] tis a bit early [09:30] popey: I liked the interactivity of the map - you can change the location [09:30] why is it seeing some peoples names in my inbox makes me wnat to just delete the threads [09:33] czajkowski: I get that with client emails [09:34] On a side note - NetworkManager does dhcp on my wireless card on Ubuntu (unity desktop on an aceraspireone) - how do I configure it to automatically seek a specific access point? [09:36] i don't know what my cat is doing.. but it sounds a *lot* like mischief [09:36] gord: it's in their mandate [09:37] my dog has a habit of humping her bed when she wants to cause mischief [09:39] I had the image of your dog humping your cats bed [09:39] Aaaaaaaaaanyway [09:40] where were we ? ahem..ubuntu [09:41] wintellect: off the top of my head, network manager - edit connections - wireless - add a SSID to connect automatically to [09:42] oimon: ok, sweet. I'll try that later. Thanks [09:45] TheOpenSourcerer: ahhh, thought you were pointing out the weather itself ☺ [09:54] TheOpenSourcerer: you going on thursday to digital surrey? [09:54] popey: I am. [09:54] Going to try to get there [10:05] y'know, we really shouldn't have spell check say that your name is spelt wrong, i mean we have that information available to it [10:06] morning all [10:07] * czajkowski pokes davmor2 [10:08] gord: TELL ME ABOUT IT!!!!!!!! [10:08] gord++ [10:08] I missed something interesting that gord said didn't I [10:09] *everything* i say is interesting [10:09] * czajkowski throws gord a bickie [10:11] gord: purhaps to you ;) [10:12] Nothing I say is interesting :( [10:12] try yelling it louder [10:15] gord: Your wrong it needs to be slower and louder for it to be interesting :P [10:16] czajkowski: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2u_DVkK1Rc [10:17] lol: http://twitter.com/#!/TwopTwips/status/72591345604239360 [10:18] good morning everyone. [10:25] Holiday complaints received by a tour operator http://paste.ubuntu.com/611749/ [10:30] DJones: number 1 is fair enough [10:32] oimon: :) [10:32] Had to laugh at number 23 [10:32] maybe that's why i holiday in england...can't get proper bacon in many other countries [10:35] http://lists.ukuug.org/pipermail/announce/2011-May/000191.html tell the government how to use plone/drupal/joomla! [10:36] Yes, and tell them to keep it updated to the latest version, not just install-and-forget [10:36] (our sysadmins cry whenever Joomla in installed) [10:36] AlanBell: alpha.gov are using ubuntu and django [10:37] yeah, had a chat with one of the alpha.gov team last week [10:41] should be talking this week with the cabinet office skunkworks team about setting up a new shapado site which is built with ruby on rails [10:42] * Daviey is not a fan of RoR. [10:44] I don't have a strong opinion on it [10:44] Ruby is a bit scary [10:45] Never used it myself [10:46] have they fixed unicode handling yet? [10:46] But have found that those who preach about RoR are arrogant [10:48] Grrrr. The .otf I converted to .eot still isn't showing in IE [10:49] Why why why does IE have to ignore standards? [10:50] ssh_exchange_identification: Connection closed by remote host anyone recognise that error, because i dont. [10:52] and inauth.log it simplysays, refused connection. [10:53] brobostigon: run ssh with a few "-vvvv" - you probably need to remove the relevant line from your "~/.ssh/known_hosts" file [10:54] TheOpenSourcerer: ah, thank you. [10:54] or fail2ban got you [10:57] Daviey: https://github.com/danielfm/pyruby [10:57] ""From now on you should be able to write Ruby code within a regular Python module" [10:58] https://github.com/danielfm/pyruby/blob/master/src/ruby.py [10:58] why would you want to do that? [10:59] ahhh [10:59] hah [10:59] ☺ [10:59] TheOpenSourcerer: http://paste.ubuntu.com/611757/ [10:59] brobostigon: thats not -vvvv [11:00] popey: ok, how do i pipe the output into a text file, so tht i can pastebin the entire output, please. [11:01] or pipe it, directly into pastebinit. [11:01] ssh -vvvv user@host 2>&1 |pastebinit [11:01] thank you AlanBell [11:03] 10:01:26 < AlanBell> ssh -vvvv user@host 2>&1 |pastebinit [11:03] balls. [11:03] http://paste.ubuntu.com/611760/ [11:03] there we go. === cking_ is now known as cking [11:07] I think you have been blocked by fail2ban or the other one [11:07] denyhosts [11:08] AlanBell: let me look in hosts.deny [11:09] iptables -nL | grep [11:09] will tell you if fail2ban caught it [11:09] (more accurately, it'll tell you if it's in iptables, but that's where fail2ban puts it) [11:09] i dont have fail2ban, i have denyhosts [11:10] brobostigon: can you get in though? [11:10] AlanBell: via my ipv6 tunnel, yes. [11:14] fail2ban doesn't give that ssh error, as you cannot conenct at all. [11:14] That looks like a hosts.deny entry, therefore Denyhosts. [11:15] i am just looking through deny.hosts to find my ipv4 addr. [11:15] hosts.deny* [11:15] Nice [11:19] brobostigon: I wouldn't bother to remove it (it will just come back at some point) add yourself to hosts.allow [11:19] yes, my ipv4addr is/was in hosts.deny [11:19] AlanBell: goodthinking, yes. [11:23] done, thank you everyone. [11:27] I get a black screen when trying to install 11.04, I have to plug an external monitor in just to be able to see anything. It's a laptop with a Radeon HD6650 card in it. Is there anything I can do to fix this please? [11:32] BT are tempting me with 40mbit downstream >:( [11:34] 3 people from 217. addresses in a short period. [11:34] what are the chances [11:34] I guess BT or someone uses 217 then ☺ [11:35] Twinkletoes: is that when booting from the live CD or when it is installed? [11:35] popey: ISP/Organisation COLT Technology Services Group LImited [11:35] popey: Well, IPv6 is going to confuse you. [11:35] popey, ewwwww! [11:36] ☺ [11:36] A common reaction Daviey [11:36] Another one shows up as Zen internet [11:36] "Lots of people from 2001:: addresses" [11:37] 2001? I live in 2011. [11:37] MartijnVdS, I get more connections from fe80:: addresses :) [11:37] AlanBell: Booting from the LiveCD/USB [11:38] Daviey: yay link local [11:38] Daviey: fe80::, the 169.254. of ipv6 :) [11:38] heh [11:39] AlanBell: I've tried other distros too, and they complain about modesetting, if that's any help ("KMS:drm report modesetting isn't supported"). According to this article, Karmic had an update to fix it, but this is 11.04 so presumably includes that fix aswell (https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xserver-xorg-video-ati/+bug/410058) [11:39] Ubuntu bug 410058 in xserver-xorg-video-ati (Ubuntu) "Black screen with radeon KMS" [High,Fix released] [11:42] was trying to explain 2000::/3 to someone earlier. v6 prefixes are fun :) [11:43] shauno: v6 is fun :) [11:44] * brobostigon has hostnames for each ipv6 he has, so he doesnt need to remember ipv6 addr's. [11:45] I use avahi for that [11:45] it registers hostnames for all my v6 addresses at home [11:45] or how-ever it works :) [11:45] well, yeah. memorizing addresses never was a fun idea. but understanding the difference between 2* and f* is handy [11:45] i didnt know that, [11:46] shauno: ff00::! [11:46] MartijnVdS: i will look into that. [11:46] brobostigon: works by default on Ubuntu [11:46] brobostigon: ping short_hostname_you_specified_during_installation [11:46] or ing6 [11:46] ping6 [11:47] I have to specify .local at home. works a treat tho [11:47] MartijnVdS: there only 2 ubuntu machines, 2 windows, one with haiku, and several other linux baseddevices. [11:47] 'ssh herlaptop.local' "just works (tm)" [11:47] MartijnVdS: ah, i get it now, :) [11:47] brobostigon: you can install Bonjour (apple's implementation) on the Windows machine (part of itunes) [11:47] MartijnVdS: those windows machines are my dads work machines. [11:48] MartijnVdS: anyways, my router, nicely shares out ipv6 addr's. so hopefully those machines are picking up addr's aswell. [11:48] brobostigon: Win Vista and 7 automatically work, yes [11:49] MartijnVdS: eeek, my dads work still uses xp. [11:49] you can still make that work if you really want to. you can set avahi up to answer for another machine [11:49] Twinkletoes: you might have more luck with the alternate CD, or even installing 10.10 and upgrading to 11.04 (I had to do that on a machine that got confused by grub on CD) [11:49] brobostigon: v6 on XP is b0rken [11:49] MartijnVdS: ok, i will discount those machines from the equation then. [11:49] AlanBell: I'll give that a go, thank :) [11:52] you can set hosts in /etc/avahi/hosts, so it'll publish them on behalf of other machines that aren't able to. can be handy [11:53] shauno: however for those to refer properly, those machines still need to be able to pickup ipv6 addr's properly. [11:53] or have static v4 addresses [11:54] yes. [11:54] not that you're likely to be addressing his work machines often - just nice to know you can kludge around 'legacy' devices fairly tidily [11:55] yes. [12:01] Grrr [12:02] Well, router didn't die but the modem connection did [12:02] * bigcalm shakes fist at VM [12:09] Any reason why &ellipsis; might be showing &ellipsis; and no ... ? [12:09] s/no/not [12:13] when you start running out of lion king characters to give to your devices as hostnames. you have too many devices.... [12:13] bigcalm: sure it's &ellipsis; and not &ellipsis;? [12:13] also, i'd just use unicode [12:26] Twinkletoes, you could try asking questions in #radeon they can probably help [12:31] dutchie: very sure, I typed it myself :) I ended up using ... because I'm lazy [12:38] Horay for MoonPig reminding me that it's my fiancee's birthday on Saturday \o/ [12:39] Should get around to wrapping some presents [12:40] bigcalm: So if it wasn't for MoonPig, would it be an ex-fiance? [12:41] mooooooooonpig dot com [12:42] DJones: I'm not noted for my memory. We were at my parents yesterday and I was talking about us coming back next Saturday. I turned to my fiancee to check that we weren't doing anything on that day [12:43] shared calendars on smartphones are good for that [12:43] we rarely double book stuff now [12:44] It's more the fact that I should have remembered that is was her birthday on Saturday [12:44] she should have been dropping hints about pressies for 3 months now [12:45] oimon: he has all the pressies for her [12:45] :) [12:45] I'm a good boy like that [12:46] I really hope she takes the stampler to work with her and uses it there [12:46] Seems unlikely, but one can dream :) [12:47] anyone know any way of getting policy-kit to work with a fingerprint reader? [12:49] gord: no but if you want to login there's an app for that :D [12:49] davmor2, oh really? an app? [12:50] a napp [12:50] gord: yeap plugs into gdm I'll track it's name down for you if you haven't got it [12:51] davmor2, i found it, its useless :( [12:51] :( [12:51] because it logs in without a password, gnome-keyring doesn't unlock [12:51] so guess what happens... [12:51] type in a password [12:51] i'd rather type a password in once than have to use a fingerprint reader then type in a password eight thousand times [12:52] #jadedbypolicykitandgnomekeyring [12:52] I've never understood the idea of using fingerprint readers for auth on PCs [12:52] gord: there is a modification that Ubuntu added that enabled keyring login from autologin maybe you could track that down [12:53] davmor2, when was this? certainly not the case as of now [12:53] gord: I guess it would make sense to unlock the screensaver [12:53] gord: I know it was in hardy and lucid for oem support [12:55] http://www.lionheartrecruitment.com/ [12:55] look at that [12:56] its a vicious cycle, they can't hire anyone to fix their site because their site is broken [12:59] czajkowski: Is that the one that wouldn't accept your .doc files? [12:59] DJones: no that's just another muppet site I've found [13:00] I swear if some sites could just be tested! a little bit [13:00] would save job seekers hair loss! [13:30] so... new laptop. need to get my u1 stuff on it, chances of me just copying the files over working? [13:32] gord: worked for me [13:32] gord: make sure you kill u1sdtool before you copy [13:32] then restart when copy is don [13:32] e [13:33] isn't the idea that u1 will fill the folder up for you? [13:34] i have several tens of gb of data :) [13:34] i don't reeeeally want to spend the next few weeks just syncing u1 [13:34] so it's you that's slowing it down for everyone else :) [13:36] gord: you can copy paste and then let u1 sync it should read everything like it's a back up but annoy Aq till he tells you for sure though [13:36] i basically spend all day in #u1 annoying people with questions ;) [13:40] gord: no just Aq he'll soon point you at the right person to get you to leave him alone :D [14:02] Does (should) network manager default to using wired networks where they're available? [14:02] I can't find any config one way or the other in nm-applet [14:05] BigRedS, how do you mean default? [14:07] BigRedS: yes it does from my experience [14:11] I'm using the shared connection option in network manger on Lucid to enable a machine to act as a gateway. It works fine, and is running a DHCP server to assign IPs to those behind the gateway. Does anyone know where the config file is for this DHCP so I can change the range it offers out since I want to have fixed IPs without any clashing. [14:14] gord: as in, without needing to be configured to do that [14:14] BigRedS, configured to do what? :) do you want connections to go over ethernet before wifi? [14:14] yeah [14:14] ah - yeah it'll do that [14:14] if I boot up and a remembered wifi network is available, and there's a good network in eth0, will it bring up eth0, wlan0, or both? [14:15] both [14:15] ahh, but default route is eth0? [14:15] should be [14:15] and do you know if that's configurable anywhere? [14:15] it might be a case of first come first served, your ethernet is gonna come up before wifi [14:15] ah yeah [14:22] hahaha, sony got hacked again [14:22] That's 6 times in a row now? [14:23] this time it's sony music greece, complete with leaked user database [14:23] i think tbh they have just become a target now [14:23] indeed [14:23] in a row? Can break ins be non-consecutive? [14:23] :) [14:23] BigRedS: I call in a row all over the past month or so? [14:24] we just don't hear about all the failed attempts [14:24] hehe [14:25] Probably don't hear about all the sucessful attempts either [14:25] indeed xD [14:25] http://hassonybeenhackedagain.com/ [14:25] should exist [14:25] and just say "YES" [14:25] popey: I'm up for that. :D [14:26] although my webserver isn't bomb proof atm so maybe not such a good idea :p [14:27] popey: that's interesting, if you put that URL into chrome, it offers you a google search for "has sony been hacked again". It figured out where the words are from a url with no spaces :) [14:28] laptop says 9:45 remaining :) [14:29] http://havethebuttonsmovedbackyet.com/ [14:30] just had a flashback === WinterWeaver is now known as andrewebdev [14:34] isn't google chromium supposed to have something like firefox awesome bar? doesn't always find the url in my history :( [14:35] its not as awesome [14:42] gord: i'm discovering that's the case [14:42] google chrome / chromium :) [14:44] i shouldn't feel this exhuasted on a monday :( [14:46] oimon: could be worse, could be sunday still [14:48] i did 7 hours flat out yesterday ,sound engineering a live event, now today i'm at work ...hmm [14:51] woo the brand new puppet book just landed on my desk [14:52] oimon: Sound engineering? setting up or running a sound system or all of it [14:53] DJones: the whole shebang. i was part of a team - we setup our own gear in 5 screens of the local cineworld mulitplex for a few hours of simultaneous broadcast and mixing . [14:54] you can do stuff with technology now that wasn't possible a few years ago. [14:54] since we use the cinema digital projectors and run audio over cat5 to slave devices [14:54] Sounds big job [14:55] yeah, do it every other sunday so it's getting easier, but this sunday was a biggun [14:55] what is the broadcast for [14:57] djones: annual international day - video clip here http://jubileechurchlondon.org/events/international-day/ [14:59] Heh, reminds me of springharvest [14:59] have u been? [14:59] Yeah, about the last 7 years [14:59] pm if you want [15:31] popey: lol, aircondirect seriously tried to screw me over xD [15:33] I ordered for next day on thursday and it didn't arrive for 2 days, phoned them up and they said it would be here on monday, After arguing with them over the fact that I had actually placed an order, then arguing over whether they should be allowed to deliver an item next week that was paid for as next day, they finally agree'd to give me a refund [15:33] apparently "refund" means deliver the item on monday anyway and give me £5 \o/ [15:33] I refused the delivery, though. Not letting them get away that easy \o/ [15:36] I wish places would let you decide what day you want it to arrive on, rather than whatever approximates next day, etc [15:38] hehe [15:38] shauno: their site actually said "Delivery for: Tomorrow" and charged me an extra £15 for the privilege XD [15:38] just spent 30 minutes processing cashback claims totally £500 for some hp printers...talk about a palaver [15:41] popey: "http://hassonybeenhackedagain.com/" == True /n wait sony=="bankrupt" /n "http://hassonybeenhackedagain.com/" == False or code to that effect :) [15:42] does PSN require credit card details? [15:42] oimon: nope only buying stuff from them does [15:42] I just get annoyed when I only have one day off work, so I'm trying to time the purchase precisely to get it to arrive while I'm home :/ [15:43] oimon, davmor2 even then, you can buy cards instead from shops/online. thats what i do [15:43] PS3 hardware seems to have longer life than Xbox [15:43] waiting to get something atm .. have to get it thursday afternoon for it to arrive monday lol [15:44] gord: makes sense, I just buy games second hand when they are cheap as I only really like adventure rpg style games that can be played forever and a day in single player mode :D [15:44] shauno: maybe invent a secure dropbox and go on dragons den [15:44] too early on thursday, it'll arrive friday. too late thursday, it'll ship friday & arrive tuesday :( [15:45] davmor2, so - not expecting to see you much once the new elder scrolls game comes out? ;) [15:46] gord: I got the first one a couple of months ago for a £5 :) [15:46] davmor2, the first one? the old old dos one? [15:47] gord: that was available on PS3 [15:47] davmor2, ah, the *forth* one ;) [15:48] gord: yeah that's the one :) [15:48] the first one's pretty hard to play these days, but the second is pretty good with Dosbox [15:48] gord: yet to play it still trooping through Dragon Age [15:51] Dragon Age any good? [15:51] reaper4334: Dragon Age is great fun [15:52] davmor2: is it a long game? [15:54] reaper4334: kept me going for a while and I'm yet to complete it, there are a load of sub-missions to make it longer I've only completed about 50% of those so there is another game in it just to complete those as well as downloadable content [15:55] reaper4334: by a while I had it for xmas and I'm still playing it, and spend 2-3+ hours at the weekend on it [15:55] davmor2: sounds pretty good :D I might have to buy it soon [15:56] reaper4334: Dragon Age 2 is out now too which is meant to be bigger still [15:56] davmor2, no its way smaller [15:56] davmor2: I played the demo of the second one, but it seemed more of a hack 'n' slash than an RPG [15:56] its one city, an outside area and a mine [15:57] gord: It's meant to be bigger [15:58] whoever told you that is a liar, a filthy liar ;) [15:58] gord: they could mean gameplay wise [15:58] gameplay wise its way smaller, i beat it in a week of playing a bit in the evenings [16:03] gord: that's disappointing [16:04] davmor2, well they took less than a year to make it... i mean, yeah. its disappointing [16:04] gord: so I'll get it when it's in the bargain bin then :) [16:05] davmor2, sure, for what its worth, for what little content there is, its pretty good :) [16:05] gord: haha [16:08] there's no sadder face than the face of someone coming to the help desk with a broken hard drive..and no backs [16:08] s/backs/backups [16:32] gord: can you test something for me please, in unity setup mumble with F12 as the press to speak button, have a few chats and see if the launch remain in sight permanently for the rest of the session [16:32] launcher even [16:32] has anyone used a site called goodreads.com? it's like a facebook for bookreaders [16:35] davmor2, i'm not quite sure what you mean [16:36] gord: normal behaviour is for app launcher to autohide correct? [16:36] oimon: INteresting site, I do a lot of reading, could be quite useful for me [16:36] davmor2, sure, but what does f12 have to do with that? [16:37] gord: So on mumble I have press to talk set with the F12 button. After every team call the launcher nolonger hides I can only assume this is down to pressing F12 repeatedly [16:38] davmor2, at what point does the launcher stop hiding? [16:39] gord: It's out while I have mumble open when I minimise mumble it just stays in place [16:40] davmor2, why would it move when you minimise mumble? are you using dodge active window? [16:42] gord: I'm using whatever the default is. but all the windows behind mumble are maximised and the launcher remains in place. [16:43] davmor2, the default is to dodge windows, which means if any window gets in the way of the launcher it should hide :) i don't think your jamming on f12 has anything to do with it [16:43] gord: pre mumble usage it moves in and out [16:43] its just stuck for some other reason [16:44] gord: would a vid capture help? I can get one tomorrow possibly [16:44] davmor2, its a long standing bug - i don't know a huge amount about it tbh [16:44] check on launchpad, see if others have it too [16:46] gord will do just wondered if there was a simple fix that didn't kill half the system :D [17:10] something to make everyone smile at this hour of the day http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCbnxX7VEuU [17:17] AlanBell: If you can remember my qyuestion about the blank screen when booting from the 11.04 desktop USB? Well, 10.10 is absolutely fine... except that it doesn't recognise my wireless NIC :( [17:18] czajkowski: you have too much time on your hands [17:18] davmor2: it was meant to make people happy at this hour of the day [17:18] czajkowski: haha it worked :) [17:20] i haven't watched uk tv in a long time... is that comedy now? i don't get it :( [17:20] then again i never understood all that Catherine Tate stuff either, everyone loved that =\ [17:21] I really don't like her either [17:21] popey: 1.6ghash and counting :) [17:21] I've only seen her in Dr Who and I wasn't impressed with her in that [17:21] gord: bring back the porridge days hey :) [17:21] 217w/node :p [17:22] shop forgot to ship me my switch so I'm running at <50% atm [17:24] DJones: noooo she was fantastic as DONNA NOBLE! [17:25] shouting is not the same as acting =\ [17:25] * czajkowski revokes gords bickies [17:25] gord +1 [17:26] gord: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LargeHam [17:26] i am not falling in to your trap dear sir. [17:26] for those that click on tvtropes links, never do return [17:31] noble felt like it only worked because they wrote the role around her [17:32] dead chicken :( [17:32] AlanBell: :( natural causes? [17:32] yeah, goldie was pretty old, sat down all day and didn't get up [17:33] :( [17:33] gord: no but it does get you understood [17:33] AlanBell: Bummer sorry about that. [17:34] AlanBell: how have the other chickens taken it? [17:34] they were a bit flustered when I took her away [17:37] AlanBell: same thing happened with our bird when the other died, give it a couple of weeks they should be right as reign again [17:41] in Ubuntu is /tmp in ram? [17:41] or is there anything that is in ram I can use? [17:42] /dev/shm should be [17:43] Azelphur: type "mount" [17:44] ty, that's the one :P [17:57] bluetooth and suspend work on the new laptop... this... this has never happened to me before [17:58] gord: don't worry I'm sure you'll figure out a way to break it [18:02] I think I'm reaching my 'really p*ssed off' threshold with ubuntu and that is something I thought I'd never say [18:07] Psychobudgie: all software has fantastic ability to be annoying [18:08] the trick isn't finding one that doesn't annoy you, but the one that's least annoying [18:09]