[00:01] <AlanBell> dogmatic69_: also throw in power consumption and upgradeability to your calculations
[00:04] <dogmatic69_> upgradeabillity?
[00:04] <dogmatic69_> power not an issue really
[00:04] <dogmatic69_> got a 800w(ish) power supply
[00:05] <BigRedS> if you just want speed, rather than buying twice the number of disks, just get a faster one
[00:06] <AlanBell> I guess with SSDs the power doesn't change when they are being used or not used
[00:06] <dogmatic69_> some redundancy is also good
[00:06] <AlanBell> with spinning disks in a raid they can't really spin down
[00:06] <dogmatic69_> but i wonder how much its needed if the ~/ is in something like synology
[00:06] <BigRedS> yeah, but I'd rather 1 fast disk, 1 slow disk and a nightly rsync to two slow disks in raid
[00:07] <BigRedS> assumign you can cope with losing everything since the last rsync n the event of disk failure
[00:07] <BigRedS> but a raid will faithfully duplicate Bad Things anyway, so even with raid you'll have a backup
[00:10] <dogmatic69_> hmm, so need backups even with a synology box
[00:10] <dogmatic69_> backups for the backups :S
[00:10] <BigRedS> well 'need' is perhaps a bit strong, but raid isn't backup
[00:10] <BigRedS> raid is redundancy
[00:11] <BigRedS> if you accidentally delete half the contents of your raid, it's instantly deleted. That's what backups are for
[00:11] <BigRedS> Raid is for when a disk fails but you need the system to stay up
[00:12] <BigRedS> raid *mostly* fulfils the criteria for backup in the event of hardware failure, but user error is way more common
[00:13] <dogmatic69_> ah, right
[00:13] <dogmatic69_> so im on the correct path, as ive read that SSD's die for nothing
[00:13] <dogmatic69_> well, all the time i mean
[00:14] <BigRedS> either way, though, you're never going to completely make everything safe, so you need to just pick sme amount of backup/redundancy that you want
[00:14] <BigRedS> yeah, I've heard they tend to go without warning
[00:14] <dogmatic69_> and it would just be a pita to reinstall everything every few months (read about 11 months is the average)
[00:14]  * dogmatic69_ has never had backups
[00:15] <BigRedS> mm, I'd be surprised if it's not gone up more recently
[00:15] <BigRedS> I gather they're gaining reliability at quite a pace
[00:15] <BigRedS> ISTR there's two flavours, too, a cheap way of doing it and a reliable way. the cheap way is in all the consumer kit, the reliable way is about twice the cost and sold to server people
[00:17] <dogmatic69_> so is there something similar to that mac backup thingy
[00:17] <BigRedS> time machine?
[00:17] <dogmatic69_> ye, thats it
[00:17] <dogmatic69_> cd / && git init
[00:17] <dogmatic69_> :D
[00:18] <BigRedS> LVM snapshotting is teh closest I can think of, or version control
[00:18] <BigRedS> haha, yeah
[00:18] <dogmatic69_> lol, people do that?
[00:18] <BigRedS> version control? yeah. of /etc/ and /home isn't uncommon
[00:19] <BigRedS> Oh. Time machine is just a cronned backup
[00:19] <dogmatic69_> crontab -e -> 59 23 * * * cd /&& git add . -m `date...`
[00:19] <BigRedS> runs hourly, creating hardlinks for existing files etc.
[00:19] <dogmatic69_> and push obviously :P
[00:19] <BigRedS> so any backup app should do that
[00:20] <dogmatic69_> ye, but it does only changes, keeps hourly for the day, daily for the last week, weekly for the last month and monthly till the backup drive is full
[00:21] <BigRedS> yeah, that's not an uncommon way for a backup thing to work
[00:21] <BigRedS> especially something user-friendly
[00:21] <BigRedS> i don't know of any off the top of my head, though
[00:22] <BigRedS> and I've just noticed the time; I should be asleep by now really
[00:22] <dogmatic69_> k
[00:22] <dogmatic69_> would be awesome if it was time machine compatible as that synology thing just works out the box for time machine
[00:23] <dogmatic69_> think i will def get one of them, the one at work is awesome
[00:23] <dogmatic69_> 4x 3TB drives for 9TB
[00:23] <dogmatic69_> you can mix and match with the hybrid RAID they do
[00:23] <BigRedS> yeah, didn't drobo do similar?
[00:24] <dogmatic69_> and it apparently as an 'apt-get' type repository
[00:24] <dogmatic69_> ye, but i think they are more web2.0 for the cool kids
[00:24] <BigRedS> oh for installing add-ons?
[00:24] <BigRedS> haha
[00:24] <BigRedS> oh yeah, there's an 'apps' bit of their site
[00:24] <BigRedS> very 2.0
[00:24] <dogmatic69_> ye, it runs a slim version of *nix
[00:25] <dogmatic69_> the synology one that is
[00:25] <dogmatic69_> and the web GUI is very awesome, mad cgi skills
[00:25] <BigRedS> yeah, I assume pretty much everything's running a linux kernel these days
[00:25] <BigRedS> I'm normally right :)
[00:25] <dogmatic69_> hehe
[00:26] <dogmatic69_> at least its not in a JAVA vm :S
[00:26] <BigRedS> haha
[00:26] <dogmatic69_> binned the android last week
[00:27] <BigRedS> what've you replaced it with/
[00:28] <dogmatic69_> iPhone4 :D
[00:28] <dogmatic69_> <3
[00:28] <BigRedS> haha
[00:28] <dogmatic69_> sooo much better
[00:28] <dogmatic69_> and it goes nicely with my ipad :P
[00:28] <BigRedS> there's some BSD in there :)
[00:28]  * dogmatic69_ checks on the mac mini update
[00:29] <dogmatic69_> but... ubuntu stays ;)
[00:29] <BigRedS> haha
[00:29] <BigRedS> Anyway, sleep. that's what I need to do :)
[00:29] <BigRedS> I keep getting distracted...
[00:30] <dogmatic69_> same
[00:30] <dogmatic69_> almost 1am
[00:30] <BigRedS> eek
[00:31] <BigRedS> righto, I'm actually off now
[00:31] <dogmatic69_> tx for the help
[00:31] <BigRedS> pft, no probs
[02:54] <ali1234> ever since i put 16gb in my computer ubuntu just flies
[02:54] <ali1234> it's great
[02:54] <ali1234> it never ever goes slow
[02:55] <ali1234> especially firefox really shows a difference
[02:55] <ali1234> the difference between 4gb and 16gb is like night and day
[02:56] <ging> really? what do you run on it?
[02:56] <ali1234> oh you know
[02:56] <ali1234> ubuntu
[02:56] <ali1234> firefox
[02:56] <ali1234> pidgin
[02:56] <ali1234> that's about it
[02:56] <ging> does it have several gigs of cached memory?
[02:56] <ali1234> sure
[02:56] <ali1234> 11GB
[02:57] <ging> thats crazy
[02:57] <ali1234> i know
[02:57] <ali1234> i suspect the large part of the problem is the way firefox caches everything in ram and in disk
[02:57] <ali1234> as i explained before
[02:58] <ali1234> i suspect that means that everything in firefox's disk cache ends up in ram due to filesystem caching
[02:58] <ali1234> and then firefox's ram cache gets swapped out due to swappiness
[02:58] <ging> there is 11gigs of stuff going in in your computer which you have no idea about
[02:58] <ali1234> no, it's filesystem cache
[02:59] <ging> your computer is plotting against you in there, any day now it will figure away to reroute mains into your keyboard
[02:59] <ali1234> only 3.5gb is really used
[02:59] <ali1234> http://pastebin.com/2jZndW25
[03:00] <ali1234> 8gb would probably be enough
[03:00] <ali1234> but sometimes i like to run VMs as well
[03:00] <ali1234> that stuff about ddr using 15w/gb is completely false btw
[03:01] <ging> you have 32gig of swap?
[03:01] <ali1234> yes
[03:02] <ging> i think the rule of thumb for having 2x as much swap as memory went out the window when pcs started to get memory in gigabytes
[03:03] <ali1234> when i had 4gb
[03:03] <ali1234> i quite often saw up to 12gb and more of swap in use
[03:03] <ali1234> due to badly written programs
[03:03] <ali1234> that's why i have 32gb
[03:03] <ali1234> and it's why i know have 16gb ram too
[03:05] <ali1234> my next project will be to build a quiet cooling system for my new uber video card, on the cheap
[03:06] <ali1234> i'm thinking removing the onboard fan, replace with 2x 120mm case fans, some ducting, and a t piece
[03:09] <ging> i just cleared half my ram by killing hardware monitor
[03:09] <ali1234> haha
[03:09] <ali1234> yes, on maverick?
[03:09] <ali1234> gnome-system-monitor?
[03:12] <ging> no it's lucid
[03:13] <ali1234> ah even worse
[03:13] <ging> and it was system monitor 1.4.2
[03:13] <ali1234> i got that bug fixed upstream
[03:13] <ali1234> it's fixed in natty
[03:13] <ali1234> g-s-m polls a lot of dbus calls
[03:13] <ali1234> and then never frees the responses it gets, ever
[03:13] <ali1234> the filesystems tab is particularly bad
[03:14] <ali1234> *polled
[03:14] <ging> well it did when i killed it
[03:14] <ali1234> &was
[03:14] <ali1234> etc
[03:14] <ali1234> it's fixed now
[03:14] <ali1234> yeah killing it will free the memory of course :)
[03:14] <ging> for ages i had been wondering why my memory seemed to get worse over time
[03:15] <ging> everyone telling me no linux doesnt need to be restarted it should run forever without problems, well mine kept slowing down after a week or 2
[03:16] <ali1234> yeah that doesn't apply to gnome
[03:17] <ging> now how do i get it to drop it's swap back into memory?
[03:18] <ali1234> turn off all swap partition :)
[03:26] <ali1234> i'm looking at air conditioning stuff on b&q
[03:26] <ali1234> it's amazing, idk why people don't use it to cool computers more
[03:27] <ali1234> a lot of it is the perfect size for computer bays
[03:59] <ging> i see no things of such size
[04:00] <ging> when i own my own house aircondition is going to be high on my list of things to get installed
[04:01] <ging> people who say oh it's never that hot in this country we dont need it mah mah mah mah mah, should try living a day in august as a ginger
[04:26] <ali1234> i have to leave my windows open and heating off pretty much all year because of computers
[06:45] <MartijnVdS> morning all
[07:00] <AlanBell> o/
[07:35] <popey> morning all
[07:36] <AlanBell> o/
[08:00] <awilkins> Anyone know where I can get recordings of the video streams of yesterdays Public Accounts Committee on the NHS IT programme?
[08:00] <awilkins> Didn't find out it was going on until I was trapped on a train.
[08:02] <AlanBell> awilkins: yes
[08:02] <AlanBell> I downloaded the whole thing it is an epic
[08:03] <awilkins> So I heard (disclaimer ; I work for NPfIT)
[08:03] <AlanBell> http://www.twofourdigital.net/UKParliament/Archive/0000016153.wmv.asx
[08:04] <AlanBell> particularly enjoyed the BT bloke blaming the existence of facebook and twitter for their management failure
[08:04] <awilkins> Aha Aha Aha.
[08:04] <awilkins> Does it start off silent? Or do I just not have the right codecs for Totem?
[08:05] <AlanBell> 3 minutes of silence
[08:05] <awilkins> I shall change players and dump the stream to disk anyway, methinks
[08:05] <AlanBell> I used vlc
[08:06] <AlanBell> in act 2 they explain how it was a total disaster from the start, they have billions left to spend and it would be cheaper to spend the billions than cancel the contract
[08:06] <AlanBell> because CSC and BT don't think they are in breach of contract so might sue the NHS if they cancel
[08:08]  * awilkins thinks it's all utterly mental
[08:08] <diplo> morning all
[08:09] <awilkins> The NHS are large enough as an entity to create any kind of enterprise they require for support from scratch, so why go to a profit-seeking contractor...
[08:09] <AlanBell> they deployed 130+ interim systems that were previously declared unfit for purpose, because they couldn't build the one they were contracted to build
[08:16] <awilkins> Ooooh, it's *already* really good.
[08:17] <awilkins> Total squirming by this bloke when told "Back in 2003, as professionals you might have taken the view that this was undeliverable"
[08:17] <awilkins> It's like the Apprentice, but I give a toss
[08:17] <AlanBell> the bloke is BT, the American lady is CSC
[08:20] <AlanBell> great bit at about 1 hour 20 when they stumble onto the subject of security claims over patient records
[08:23] <awilkins> I have an interest there... I've got what I think is a partially workable design that might sort-of-work
[08:23] <AlanBell> they explain that the clinician will ask the patient for permission to access the medical records
[08:24] <AlanBell> "what if the paitent says no"
[08:24] <AlanBell> errr . . . . errr . . . .
[08:25] <awilkins> In my system, if the patient says no, the doctor doesn't get access to their medical record
[08:25] <AlanBell> how does the patient enforce that?
[08:25] <awilkins> And that's enforced cryptographically
[08:26] <AlanBell> so does the patient have a PIN or smartcard or something?
[08:26] <awilkins> Smartcard, I would think
[08:26] <MartijnVdS> How does the patient enforce that if he's dying after being hit by a bus?
[08:26] <MartijnVdS> and his smartcard was crushed
[08:26] <AlanBell> ok, that is basically the question the PAC asked, if the patient has no portion of the key they can't say no
[08:26] <awilkins> MartijnVdS, Well, I think that position is an extreme anyway... but this sort of question is useful
[08:27] <AlanBell> personally I think the GP should hold the keys
[08:27] <awilkins> MartijnVdS, Really, in the "card crushed by a bus" scenario you are no worse off than default
[08:27] <MartijnVdS> awilkins: It's the most important one. I want people to know my medical history if they want to revive me after an accident :)
[08:28] <awilkins> MartijnVdS, Then you would not be one of the people withholding all your medical records from doctors, presumably
[08:28] <MartijnVdS> awilkins: Maybe in non-accident circumstances, I would be
[08:28] <awilkins> MartijnVdS, My system does provide for differential access levels (again, crypto enforced)
[08:29] <awilkins> So you could have a summary sheet that detailed things people need to know if you're hit by a bus (allergies, etc) but keep the details of your infatuation with goats locked in your psych records
[08:29] <MartijnVdS> sure
[08:30] <MartijnVdS> but what if I'm hit by a bus while .. exercising .. my infatuation with a goat ;)
[08:30] <awilkins> I think the goat will just have to pray that his BUPA premiums are up to date
[08:31] <TheOpenSourcerer> Morning earthlings.
[08:31] <MartijnVdS> \o TheOpenSourcerer
[08:32] <scumbag> Afternoon
[08:32] <awilkins> AlanBell, I agree with keyholders only being parties with what's called a "Legitimate Relationship" (LR) in the trade.
[08:33] <awilkins> AlanBell, Specifically, by default, you naturally have a key to any record you create, and the patient and the record creator initially negotiate on how open their record will be (keys signed by GP practice, keys signed by trust, etc)
[08:35]  * TheOpenSourcerer fires up his WinXP and OS X VMs to test a new Joomla! module he wrote last night.
[08:39]  * TheOpenSourcerer grumbles about having to have a Win 7 VM soon so he can test with IE 9 & beyond... He reminds AlanBell about the licenses we have.
[08:39] <TheAshMan> How much of a pain in the arse is it to install Ubuntu on a iMac?
[08:40] <TheOpenSourcerer> TheAshMan: Dunno popey will probably know though.
[08:40] <TheAshMan> I imagine it wouldn't be too bad, being *nix an'all
[08:41] <DJones> I seem to remember reading that there can be some major problems with certain mac's
[08:41] <TheAshMan> hmm :/
[08:42] <awilkins> Try a LiveThumb and see what the hardware support is like
[08:43] <TheAshMan> awilkins: Good idea!
[08:44] <diplo> Any one know who wrote a blog post about using Quicklists with ssh ? I read it a week or two ago but can't seem to find it atm
[08:45] <awilkins> http://castrojo.tumblr.com/post/4536294249/more-quicklists  ?
[08:45] <diplo> looking now ta
[08:45] <diplo> My google foo seems to have taken a tumble recently
[08:46] <diplo> that's the one, cheers awilkins
[08:46] <diplo> !
[08:48] <TheOpenSourcerer> It takes all sorts... http://www.massterra.com/
[08:49] <DJones> TheOpenSourcerer: From a quick companies house search "The 30.06.10 accounts indicate that the company is either dormant or no longer
[08:49] <DJones> trades.trades
[08:49] <TheOpenSourcerer> I can't say I am surprised... Bet he didn't get many cheques.
[08:50] <TheOpenSourcerer> It would cost £1,680,000 to send me into space at his prices. :-D
[08:50] <TheOpenSourcerer> Ex. VAT I assume.
[08:51] <DJones> No, looks as though its never traded
[08:51] <DJones> It might depend, a lot of public transport costs are vat exempt, ferrys etc, is there any difference to this?
[08:52] <AlanBell> "other bodily fluids" um, eww!
[08:53] <DJones>  How you will be involved in space travel will be explained once you have completed a confidentiality agreement which you must sign and return to us by post.
[08:56] <MooDoo> hello
[08:57] <popey> moo
[08:58] <MooDoo> :D
[09:09] <popey> Ooo, next version of the Linux Kernel might be 2.8.0 or 3.0
[09:10] <DJones> Ah well, that'll be nvidia not working for about 12 months :)
[09:12] <BigRedS> mm. and there's (again) talk of 2011.x.y and the like
[09:12] <MartijnVdS> what is this? Gentoo?
[09:12] <BigRedS> which I'm not sure I like, but I don't know why. I think I just can't see the kernel *not* being 2.x.x
[09:16] <popey> morning kazade
[09:16] <TheAshMan> Oooo, popey, I've been told you're the person to ask about install ubuntu on an iMac
[09:16] <popey> O RLY
[09:16] <popey> !mac
[09:17] <TheAshMan> lol
[09:17] <TheAshMan> Ta!
[09:17] <kazade> morning popey
[09:30] <wintellect> :(  Installed Kubuntu on a spare box - but I get a blank screen every time I logout. The cli or KDM never return :'(
[09:30] <wintellect> Got a Radeon X300
[09:30] <wintellect> I'm assuming it's an X issue
[09:30] <oimon> try alt-sysrq-K
[09:31] <DJones> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/05/24/twitter_tweetdeck/ Shame they don't mention any source for the story
[09:31] <wintellect> oimon: which key is "sysrq"?
[09:31] <MartijnVdS> wintellect: print screen (read the key :))
[09:31] <oimon> wintellect: it's near/on print screen
[09:31] <wintellect> MartijnVdS: and oimon:  Ahhh
[09:32] <gord> http://blog.jitbit.com/2011/05/what-if-drivers-were-hired-like.html ¬_¬
[09:32] <wintellect> oimon: presumably that's a "lowercase" K and not a shift-k, right?
[09:32] <oimon> wintellect: don't try it until yuo experience the problem or it will kill your current X session
[09:32] <oimon> yep
[09:32] <wintellect> ok
[09:32] <wintellect> will try at lunchtime - much appreciated
[09:33] <wintellect> OOC - what does that key combination do? Reset X?
[09:33] <MartijnVdS> wintellect: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_SysRq_key
[09:33] <wintellect> thanks MartijnVdS
[09:33] <oimon> yes, effectively, kills all processes on the virtual console, so you should get a gdm/kdm /login
[09:34] <MartijnVdS> I had a different issue today
[09:34] <oimon> wioll prob need to do ctrl-alt-sysrq-k actually
[09:34] <MartijnVdS> Moved my mouse to get the screen to turn back on.. and it turned back on
[09:34] <MartijnVdS> but it was black, all I could see was my mouse pointer (which changed shape as I moved over the different windows)
[09:34] <MartijnVdS> Ctrl+Alt+F1 -> still worked
[09:34] <bigcalm> Good morning peeps :)
[09:34] <MartijnVdS> \o bigcalm
[09:35] <bigcalm> Hi MartijnVdS
[09:35] <czajkowski> Aloha
[09:35] <bigcalm> czajkowski: *hugs* :)
[09:38]  * MooDoo prods czajkowski just because he's not done it in awile 
[09:38] <bigcalm> Would that be a cattle prod?
[09:38]  * czajkowski stabs MooDoo 
[09:38]  * MooDoo hugs czajkowski 
[09:38] <MooDoo> :D
[09:38] <wintellect> oimon: if that key combination fixes it - os there anything I can do to resolve my issue - or is that key combination the "fix" until a new release of X?
[09:38] <wintellect> s/os/is
[09:39] <oimon> wintellect: dunno, i was just offering a workaround until the helpful #kubuntu or #radeon people can help you :D
[09:39] <oimon> is #radeon even a room?
[09:40] <wintellect> apparently, it is
[10:13] <DJones> Why when I use a machine and the gui update manager to check for updates does it say there are no updates, but when I ssh into the same machine it says there are 86 updates?
[10:16] <bigcalm> DJones: you could have a stale /etc/motd
[10:17] <DJones> Possibly, been doing it for about a week, but just used vnc & ssh to check for updates and seems to have cured it
[10:17] <bigcalm> Goodo
[10:19] <dogmatic69> DJones: i just use terminal update now, also have issues with the gui
[10:20] <DJones> dogmatic69: If it does it again, I'll have to try that
[10:21] <dogmatic69> DJones: i have issues with jenkins, would not update in gui because the repo was not trusted or something
[10:21] <dogmatic69> in terminal it has a 'are you sure' question which the gui does not handle
[10:22] <dogmatic69> so it just stops everything, then you got to scroll through the list, untick it and go again :/
[10:23] <DJones> untrusted repo is normally that it doesn't have a ppa's key etc, but I gues if a specific repo doesn't have a key it can never get one
[10:25] <AlanBell> awilkins: enjoy the rest of it?
[10:27] <awilkins> AlanBell, Still watching, in fits and starts, but it's very amusing so far
[10:30] <awilkins> I think the government suffers from the habit of going with big industry because that's what works for procurements which produce material objects
[10:31] <awilkins> They need to get the hang of the idea that you can just conjure software out of the aether so you don't need people with huge capital to produce it (and that may actually work against them).
[10:31] <awilkins> I mean, what huge software company has actually innovated in a way that didn't involve buying some smart startup (or being a smart startup in the first place)?
[10:32] <AlanBell> totally true
[10:32] <awilkins> Infrastructure - yes. But TBH, the infrastructure is bobbins
[10:32] <kazade> AHA! Just bought a Sega Master System 2 on Ebay :D
[10:33] <awilkins> N3 (the NHS segregated network) has a total of 30Mbit/s symmetric as a gateway to the greater internet (AFAIK). Utterly inadequate.
[10:33] <AlanBell> and you can see them in the PAC talking about Rio and saying it is perfectly reasonable to pay 1M/hospital for it, they are questioning why it cost 8.9M/hospital
[10:33] <awilkins> yes, just got to that bit
[10:34] <awilkins> NHS Mail - they moved from Samsung Contact to Exchange
[10:34] <gord> kazade, my megadrive is *superior* to your sega master system!
[10:34] <gord> sorry, i got flashes of being 10 years old again
[10:34] <awilkins> So we went from being able to read out mail over IMAP to either using Outlook or the crappy web portal
[10:34] <awilkins> And you have a 200MB mailbox limit and the search blows chunks
[10:36] <awilkins> Why why why, if Google can give me free gratis for nothing, 8GB of mail space and a search that goes -pchow!- , for nothing but the privilege of data mining my loathsome ramblings for adverts I never view... why wouldn't you just bung them £50 a year per user and have a million-man email system that actually works well....
[10:36] <awilkins> And Office - we chucked the NHS-wide enterprise contract for Office licenses
[10:36] <AlanBell> the cabinet office chucked that
[10:37] <AlanBell> it was on the wrong budget
[10:37] <awilkins> Presumably Office costs us in excess of 10s of millions of quid a year in licensing.
[10:37] <AlanBell> yup
[10:37] <awilkins> For a few percent of that you could hire several full time C++ developers to work on LibreOffice.
[10:38] <awilkins> And a few more Pythonistas to migrate horrific old VBA macros to Python
[10:38] <AlanBell> yup
[10:55] <oimon> awilkins: " And Office - we chucked the NHS-wide enterprise contract for Office licenses"
[10:55] <oimon> what do you mean? you got rid of office? or paid microsoft for a site licence thingy
[10:56] <awilkins> oimon, We had an agreement that covered enterprise-wide use of MS Office in the NHS
[10:56] <awilkins> oimon, This was cancelled and now trusts have to negotiate their own licenses
[10:56] <brobostigon> good morning everyone.
[10:56] <oimon> oh i see
[10:57] <awilkins> oimon, Also, NHS staff were previously allowed Office to use at home at Cost of Media as a perk - this is no longer the case
[10:57] <oimon> awilkins: my Uni is going the opposite way - about to pay MS for a campus agreement every year...
[10:57] <oimon> the problem is, 70% or more of my dept use openoffice rather than MS products,
[10:57] <awilkins> oimon, MS loves that kind of thing
[10:58] <oimon> they are microsftising the whole campus against the staff wishes
[10:58] <awilkins> oimon, As does any corporate entity - they love getting their brand and products into educational settings
[10:58] <BigRedS> yeah, get people to learn your thing while they still want to learn something, see if you can have them not bother to learn anybody else's
[10:59] <BigRedS> didn't Adobe almost publicly state that their market share is grounded in students pirating their software?
[10:59] <awilkins> I'm sure it is
[10:59] <DJones> How does this seem spec & prcie wise, I know its not offering android 3.0, but seems reasonable http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/10-2-Android-2-1-EPAD-TABLET-PC-ZT-180-e-reader-UK-/120656021215
[10:59] <BigRedS> Actually, this was pre-macromedia-purchase. I suspect Flash on its own gets them a lot of CS license sales
[11:00] <awilkins> If they made their DRM scheme actually hard to break, two things would happen i) Students wouldn't use it as much ii) Much more work would be done on the OSS products in the same niche
[11:00] <awilkins> From an educational POV, I think proprietary products have so much less utility for learning because you can't poke around in their innards
[11:01] <BigRedS> yeah. And if students stop falling out of uni fluent in Adobe, their employers will use whatever it is that the students found to replace for free
[11:01] <davmor2> morning ubuntu-ukers
[11:01] <awilkins> I can understand it in trade schools, because you can successfully argue that these products are what they will use at work
[11:01] <mrwarmth> morning
[11:01]  * davmor2 prods czajkowski 
[11:01] <DJones> Morning mrwarmth
[11:01] <BigRedS> awilkins: I think that's true for compting students, but I'm not sure there's much an art student will gain specifically from the freedom of Inkscape/GIMP/whatever over the prop. equivalents
[11:01] <BigRedS> for example
[11:02]  * czajkowski puts davmor2 on the step, shhhh 
[11:02] <BigRedS> (except being able to have their own copy with no issues, which is a *massive* win at uni(
[11:02] <davmor2> czajkowski: no :P
[11:02] <oimon> here's how it went at my employer: consultant says this is what you need, although i don't know anything about how the university works. uni boss says OK.
[11:02] <BigRedS> yeah, that's unis trying to emulate business :(
[11:02] <awilkins> BigRedS, Possibly not ; the flipside is that Inkscape/GIMP/Whatever would gain massively from having the input of a whole bunch of art students, even if it's just constructive criticism
[11:03] <awilkins> Possibly helping them to eclipse the commercial products
[11:03] <oimon> DJones: lacking in RAM methinks
[11:04] <BigRedS> awilkins: yeah, that's partly why I want more unis to use free software
[11:04] <BigRedS> 'cause I want ranty students filing bug reports that make it better
[11:05] <BigRedS> but I don't think it's easy to explain the direct benefits to the students. Especially the ones who don't want to rant about software
[11:05] <DJones> oimon: Yes, but seems upgradable with sd cards (At least thats what the "TF card" seems to be, although never heard of TF card before
[11:05] <oimon> also, "Extended: TF card, U disk" - not sure what this means, but external storage is crucial too
[11:06] <awilkins> Tiny Flash ?  :-)
[11:06] <DJones> oimon: TF = Transflash
[11:06] <DJones> Original name for MicroSD from what I can read
[11:07] <oimon> lol
[11:07] <oimon> glad they changed the name
[11:08] <mrwarmth> I'm calling them that from now on
[11:19] <FND_> g'day all - my new laptop has a Sandy Bridge CPU, which apparently isn't fully supported yet in 11.04 (noisy fan, plus Ubuntu froze on me just now)
[11:20] <FND_> what's the easiest way to get the latest kernel (2.6.39)?
[11:20] <popey> http://kernel.ubuntu.com/~kernel-ppa/mainline/
[11:20] <BigRedS> oooh. that *is* easy
[11:21] <FND_> thanks - I remember looking into that PPA a while ago, but it didn't work as I'd expected
[11:23] <FND_> I guess I should use rc4-natty rather than rc7-oneiric?
[11:23] <BigRedS> else, I suspect that the 'debian way' will work just as well under Ubuntu
[11:24] <FND_> oh right, I remember why that PPA wasn't good enough - it doesn't provide PAE kernels
[11:24] <FND_> BigRedS: what's the Debian way - compiling it manually?
[11:25] <BigRedS> nah, it's in-between that and a PPA
[11:25] <BigRedS> you use kernel-package to make a .deb out of your source
[11:26] <BigRedS> oh, but it requires that the source package for the version you want be in the repo
[11:26] <BigRedS> which isn't what you want
[11:26] <BigRedS> I forget we're not all luddites :)
[11:26] <FND_> so ... basically, there is no easy way then?
[11:27] <BigRedS> well, building your own isn't that hard
[11:27] <BigRedS> you could, presumably, get the source from that ppa and build it the debian way from that?
[11:27] <BigRedS> assuming they provide sources
[11:27] <DJones> Heh, a work colleague has just said that her daughter was given a spelling test at school yesterday...the list of words they had to spell was given to them typed on a sheet of paper
[11:27] <FND_> do you have a link that describes the procedure, BigRedS?
[11:28] <mrwarmth> DJones, lol
[11:28] <BigRedS> FND_: http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/notes/debian/kernel-build.html looks about right
[11:29] <FND_> thank you
[11:29] <mrwarmth> BigRedS, would adding this ppa work? https://launchpad.net/~kernel-ppa/+archive/ppa
[11:30] <mrwarmth> I did something similar a while ago but I can't remember properly, but it worked
[11:30] <BigRedS> Ooh, that expects vanilla kernels. I suppose there's no reason to need the repo ones, you just don't get the Debian/Ubuntu patches that way. But there's no way to get debian/ubuntu patches on .39 yet
[11:30] <FND_> are those patches significant?
[11:30] <FND_> mrwarmth: that PPA doesn't provide PAE kernels AFAICT
[11:31] <FND_> also, it only goes up to RC4 for Natty
[11:31] <selinuxium> Hi all   o/
[11:31] <BigRedS> FND_: Occasionally :) I've lost track, I've not felt the need for a non-repo kernel in a long while
[11:31] <FND_> I guess I'll look into building the kernel from scratch - grub should make it easy to revert to the official one if needed
[11:32] <BigRedS> yeah, just boot from the other one
[11:32] <FND> actually
[11:33] <FND> I might as well try the Natty RC4 one before I go off building my own
[11:33] <FND> it might be Good Enough until Oneiric is released
[11:33] <BigRedS> FND: what are you actually setting out to acheive?
[11:34] <FND> a) quiet the fan b) not have another freeze like before
[11:34] <BigRedS> Is this a learning excercise/just wanting new shiny things, or is there something particilar in the new kernels that you want?
[11:34] <selinuxium> Hi guys... I keep losing the task bar icon for my internet/wireless connection..
[11:34] <selinuxium> What process is this?
[11:35] <FND> the 2.6.39 has proper support for Sandy Bridge CPUs, BigRedS - so I expect things will be more smooth there
[11:36] <DJones> selinuxium: Isn't it nm-applet
[11:36] <mrwarmth> selinuxium, do you mean the applet in the tray? I *think* it's nm-applet
[11:36] <selinuxium> cheers guys
[11:40] <BigRedS> FND: Ahh, well, it's worth a try I suppose, but I'd expect the ubuntu/debian patched kernels to be more stable
[11:41] <selinuxium> nm-applet still buggy for me..
[11:41] <selinuxium> connection made then loose icon...
[11:41] <oimon> FND which processor do you have?
[11:41] <BigRedS> try restarting network-manager?
[11:41] <FND> BigRedS: I'm just about to install http://kernel.ubuntu.com/~kernel-ppa/mainline/v2.6.39-rc4-natty/
[11:41] <BigRedS> /etc/init.d/network-manager restart
[11:41] <BigRedS> fixes so many network problems for me
[11:41] <BigRedS> (short term)
[11:41] <selinuxium> network working, icon keeps failing..
[11:42] <BigRedS> FND: aha, that looks suitable
[11:42] <FND> oimon: Intel Core i7-2620M 2,7GHz
[11:42] <BigRedS> selinuxium: hm, bit more peculiar. You can start nm-applet in an xterm and see what it says when it exits?
[11:42] <oimon> FND: is the processor basically supported but not th egraphics ?
[11:43] <FND> oimon: I don't know - I have read though that Sandy Bridge chips are much better supported in 2.6.39
[11:44] <FND> FWIW, I don't have a dedicated GPU, just the integrated Intel GMA HD3000
[11:44] <oimon> i'm about to buy a load of sandy bridge machines...looks like i'll need to do some serious testing on an initial device first then
[11:46] <FND> well, everything works fine - it's just that the fan control appears suboptimal, plus the freezing I mentioned (happened twice in two days, but that might just be Ubuntu being shit ;) )
[11:46] <oimon> FND: i'll be using them with RHEL/SL linux so i think i have to wait until SL 6.1 is out
[11:48] <FND> well, good luck
[11:48] <oimon> yeah ..centos 6.0 is not even out yet!
[11:49] <FND> rebooting to test this kernel, brb
[11:49] <BigRedS> in Firefox, if I type abcd:efghij it assumes that 'abcd' is a protocol with which to access efghij. Shouldn't it check for a :// rather than a : ?
[11:49] <AlanBell> no
[11:50] <AlanBell> http is the about the only protocol that has // at the start, I have no idea why it does
[11:51] <BigRedS> Oh, I thought that was something of a de-facto 'standard' that HTTP started and everybody followed
[11:51] <BigRedS> bah
[11:51] <AlanBell> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/URI_scheme
[11:52] <kazade> gord, I've got a MD2 and Dreamcast... just need a Saturn to complete the set :)
[11:52]  * BigRedS resigns himself to copying "Error:....." search terms into teh actual search box :(
[11:52] <oimon> ctrl-K jumps to the search box on firefox & chromium
[11:53] <BigRedS> yeah
[11:53] <AlanBell> ok, so some start with // and some don't. Possibly to do with whether they are hierachical
[11:53] <BigRedS> but ctrl-L is heavily ingrained in my muscle memory
[11:53] <gord> kazade, md2? eww
[11:53] <BigRedS> (and ctrl-t leaves you with the address bar focused)
[11:53] <dogmatic69> BigRedS: that gets me all the time too, chrome is a bit more smart about that though
[11:53] <Laney> yes it indicates that the path is hierarchical
[11:54] <BigRedS> I'm just looking to see if there's a way to explicitly set all the protocols I want Firefox to think it can handle
[11:54] <BigRedS> and if it can't handle, say 'error:', just search for it
[11:54] <BigRedS> well, the former's done, it's the latter I'd like to be possible
[11:54] <dogmatic69> sudo apt-get install googlechrome :)
[11:55] <DJones> dogmatic69: s/googlechrome/chromium-browser :)
[11:56] <BigRedS> but I want my add-ons! :)
[11:57] <FND> well, everything still seems to work - except the bluetooth mouse, which isn't tragic
[11:58] <oimon> i wonder how many minecraft inspired games we'll get over the next 5 years? http://www.terraria.org/ <<
[11:59] <DJones> That reminds me more of Lemmings
[11:59] <gord> inspired is a generous word to use ;)
[11:59] <oimon> looking at the oggcamp list...there's a whole lot of people going
[12:00] <bigcalm> Now all they need are some people to speak
[12:03] <BigRedS> oh yeah, that'd probably help...
[12:05] <oimon> still haven't seen the vids from oggcamp2010..
[12:05] <AlanBell> vids from oggcamp 2011 will be up *fast*
[12:05] <oimon> :D
[12:07] <kazade> gord, I'm rebuilding my childhood collection, I'm buying the exact same versions of everything I had when I was a kid (before I foolishly sold them off!)
[12:07] <mrwarmth> DJones, does chromium-browser do bookmark syncing like google-chrome?
[12:08] <kazade> gord, So, SMS2, MD2, Saturn, Dreamcast (only missing the Saturn now)
[12:08] <DJones> mrwarmth: yes it does
[12:08] <mrwarmth> DJones, I'm switching now!
[12:08] <DJones> mrwarmth: I use it rather than installing the 3rd party repo for the official google chrome
[12:09] <mrwarmth> DJones, yes I don't like doing that either, plus all the chrome store stuff is kind of annoying
[12:17] <screen-x> Good afternoon ubuntu-uk people :)
[12:19] <brobostigon> afternoonings screen-x
[12:20] <mrwarmth> afternoon, screen-x
[12:26] <dogmatic69> o/
[13:00]  * oimon wonders why the 80 or so superinjunctions aren't listed on wikileaks?
[13:01] <MooDoo> oimon: who cares lol
[13:01] <oimon> MooDoo: i would have thought wikileaks would since it's about censorship of the press
[13:07] <AlanBell> if the press would stop printing celebrity shagging stories and printed news instead they wouldn't end up being censored
[13:09] <MooDoo> i like they assume anyone gives a monkeys
[13:09] <BigRedS> people do
[13:09] <BigRedS> if people didn't, they wouldn't sell papers
[13:09] <AlanBell> they get confused by stuff that is "in the public interest" and stuff that "interests the public"
[13:11] <MooDoo> sigh
[13:11] <popey> http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2011/1232.html is an interesting read
[13:11] <popey> about the Giggs story
[13:12] <BigRedS> AlanBell: Nah, I think they're just under the impression they're a business, not a public service
[13:38] <oimon> popey: interesting site
[13:47] <gord> whoever invented the gtk progressbar that just goes back and forward needs to be shot
[13:48] <hamitron> gord: "I really have no clue how long it will take"
[13:48] <hamitron> ;)
[13:48] <MartijnVdS> "But I'm still working on it!"
[13:48] <hamitron> :D
[13:50] <BigRedS> haha, yeah, I love that
[13:51] <oimon> guys, i've got a laptop in front of me running lucid and ati radeon express 1250  with bad screen flicker - what should i do? lsmod shows radeon module loaded
[13:51] <MartijnVdS> what kind of screen flicker?
[13:51] <davmor2> gord: wasn't it you?
[13:52] <oimon> MartijnVdS: occasionally when moving windows or similar , i see thin horizontal black lines flicker in several places across the screen
[13:53] <oimon> especially when closing or creating windows - seems like a driver bug. no experience with ati drivers tho
[13:54] <MartijnVdS> oimon: sounds like a 3D bug.. does it happen in classic mode?
[13:55] <gord> MartijnVdS, lucid :)
[13:55] <oimon> looks like bug 318325
[13:55] <MartijnVdS> ah
[13:55] <MartijnVdS> upgrade to natty?
[13:56] <oimon> still in natty too :( just ned to remember not to suspend th elaptop
[13:56] <MartijnVdS> get a proper new one ;)
[13:56] <MartijnVdS> with INTEL graphics, that WORK
[13:56] <MartijnVdS> *ahem*
[13:56] <oimon> it's a work laptop :(
[13:56]  * MartijnVdS convinced work to buy an intel laptop :)
[13:56] <oimon> bought before i was here
[13:56] <oimon> :)
[13:56] <oimon> otherwise a nice machine
[13:57] <oimon> except for horrible placement of certain keys on the beyboard
[13:58] <gord> intel does not mean works
[13:58] <gord> seriously
[13:58] <MartijnVdS> gord: when doesn't it?
[13:58] <MartijnVdS> gord: if it's old (pre-core) intel, sure.. but new intel Works®
[13:59] <gord> MartijnVdS, their gl support sucks, this HD 3000 i'm running has graphical glitches all over the place
[13:59] <hamitron> :/
[13:59] <MartijnVdS> gord: At least it's not nvidia, with no support at all for RANDR
[13:59] <hamitron> why do i now feel I've been stupid getting an i3 :/
[13:59] <MartijnVdS> hamitron: i3 is good.
[13:59] <DJones> hamitron: I like my i3
[14:00] <hamitron> I like mine too
[14:00] <hamitron> runnign widnws 7 atm on it though
[14:00] <hamitron> :)
[14:00] <hamitron> running windows 7 atm on it though
[14:00] <davmor2> I like mine too and the battery meter doesn't lie any more either
[14:01] <hamitron> using it for games for a while, will then use in a SFF PC with linux
[14:01] <hamitron> :)
[14:01] <hamitron> that is the plan anyway
[14:09] <ali1234> it's very simple
[14:09] <mrwarmth> Does anyone know if Xubuntu uses GDM?
[14:10] <davmor2> mrwarmth: I believe it does although it may be heavily modified and not all options may work if the backend apps are missing
[14:10] <ali1234> if you want fast 2d and low power usage, go intel
[14:10] <ali1234> if you want to play games, get nvidia
[14:11] <brobostigon> !info xdm
[14:11] <ali1234> if you want to do gpu computing get ati
[14:11] <mrwarmth> thanks, davmor2
[14:12] <ali1234> xubuntu does use gdm
[14:12] <davmor2> brobostigon: xdm isn't xfce it's X fullstop
[14:12] <ali1234> in fact xfce is little more than an alternative shell and apps for gnome
[14:13] <ali1234> (and not a particularly good one of that)
[14:13] <brobostigon> davmor2: yes, i know, i wasjust curious.
[14:13] <ali1234> xdm is a old old display manager from prehistory
[14:13] <davmor2> brobostigon: ah okay
[14:13] <hamitron> ali1234: for the functionality, I certainly found it rather heavy on resources
[14:14] <ali1234> xfce is basically in the state that gnome was in 5 years ago
[14:15] <ali1234> people say xfce is really light, but so was gnome before they added all the features we now take for granted
[14:15] <ali1234> like the ability to configure monitors
[14:15] <mrwarmth> ali1234, thank you. I tend to use dwm instead of gnome and figured xubuntu might be a better starting point rather than full ubuntu/gnome. xfce is nice too though :)
[14:18] <ali1234> so i'm now addicted to mechanical turk
[14:19] <ali1234> i've earned about $20 in the last three days
[14:21] <oimon> ali1234: oh dear, whose fault was that?
[14:21] <ali1234> i dunno whoever was talking about it the other day
[14:21]  * oimon hides
[14:22] <oimon> what are you doing? transcriptions?
[14:22] <ali1234> yeah
[14:22] <ali1234> and "draw a box around the thing"
[14:22] <awilkins> $20 for how much work though
[14:22] <oimon> 3 days :P
[14:22] <ali1234> about 2 hours a day
[14:23] <awilkins> And is it less than $20 worth of effort to extract it from Amazon
[14:23] <ali1234> dunno, it looks like they just give it to you as amazon gift cards
[14:23] <ali1234> if you are outside USA that is
[14:23] <oimon> there must be easier ways to get ££
[14:23] <oimon> market research, mystery shopping
[14:24] <ali1234> finding 2 hours of work/day on a regular basis is surprisingly difficult
[14:25] <popey> some of them are just ad-clicking
[14:25] <ali1234> i don't do the spammy ones
[14:25]  * mrwarmth googles mechanical turk
[14:25] <oimon> ali1234: you could babysit people's farmville plots for them. :)
[14:25] <ali1234> i pick them based on how interesting they are
[14:25] <ali1234> like yesterday there was one "upload images from all the different cameras you have"
[14:26] <ali1234> someone wants to analyse jpeg compression to discover what camera took a photo, if the exif is stripped
[14:26] <ali1234> $0.25 per image
[14:26] <oimon> inssider fails on my lucid machine :(
[14:27] <ali1234> yeah, i'll happily 'play' farmville for you for $2/hour
[14:27] <ali1234> (if i have nothing better to do lol)
[14:27] <oimon> can you trade stuff in minecraft?
[14:28] <ali1234> if you want to
[14:28] <ali1234> just drop it on the ground
[14:28] <ali1234> there's no trading system except in mods
[14:28] <wintellect> oimon: tried the ctrl-alt-sysrq-k thing, and it brought back KDM. thanks for the tip
[14:28] <DJones> ali1234: $2/hour for playing facebook, I should get my wife doing that, she'd make a fortune doing what she does anyway
[14:28] <oimon> wintellect: sweet :)
[14:29] <DJones> s/facebook/farmville
[14:29] <screen-x> sadly noone wants to pay me to play osmos
[15:12] <oimon> am i misremembering or didn't ubuntu installer used to offer a side-by-side install if you already had XP and ubuntu already on your machine?
[15:16] <BigRedS> So install a third OS, leaving the other ubuntu and the windows?
[15:16] <BigRedS> It definitely did (still does?) do that when there's another not-ubuntu
[15:17] <BigRedS> but I don't think I've ever needed to notice what it does when there's already a ubuntu there
[15:18] <oimon> natty installer offers now to trash everything, upgrade the LTS, or "other"..and the other is somewhat manual.
[15:18] <oimon> i remember it was a lot nicer and allowed a gparted type partition resizer etc
[15:23] <awilkins> I like the "other"
[15:23] <Azelphur> popey: 2.7ghash :)
[15:24] <Azelphur> weeeeee.
[15:24]  * hamitron sniffles at his 0.8ghash
[15:24] <hamitron> :\
[15:24] <Azelphur> hehe
[15:24] <awilkins> I like "other" because my standard partition preference is to have /home on a partition that isn't root.
[15:25] <popey> Azelphur: why do you keep telling me this?
[15:25] <BigRedS> I got bored of multi-partitioned desktops/laptops a while ago
[15:25] <Azelphur> popey: thought you was interested, sorry
[15:25] <popey> heh
[15:26] <awilkins> Blech, Dr Pepper is not nearly as nice when flat
[15:26] <awilkins> Doesn't work as a jingle
[15:27] <oimon> do they still advertise fizzy drinks on tv?
[15:28] <awilkins> They do.
[15:28] <hamitron> popey: buys comparing their "toys" ;)
[15:28] <hamitron> boys*
[15:29] <awilkins> The Ubuntu installer WAS smart enough this time around to work out that when I gave it an old /home with existing folders, that it didn't need to make a new one for my user
[16:20] <Twinkletoes> what is the most up-to-date or best version of ddrescue... "ddrescue", "dd_rescue" or "gddrescue"?
[16:27] <screen-x> gddrescue \o/ thats the package name, I think the binary might not have the g.
[16:27] <screen-x> Twinkletoes: yah, gddrescue contains /sbin/ddrescue
[16:28] <screen-x> and is rather awesome
[16:28]  * screen-x is disappointed by https://splendidbacon.com
[16:29] <Twinkletoes> screen-x: Yeah - it seems dd_rescue is rather old, too
[16:30] <Twinkletoes> screen-x: It's confusing because ddrescue is 1.14-1 and gddrescue is 1.11-1
[16:34] <screen-x> Twinkletoes: did you hear about kernel 2.6.40 possibly being 2.8.0, due to "the voices in my head"?
[16:34] <bigcalm> o.O
[16:35]  * Twinkletoes is all confuzzled
[16:35] <screen-x> http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel.mm/63589
[16:35] <screen-x> just a statement on the arbitrary-ness of version numbers
[16:37] <gord> as long as the version numbers are going up, its all good
[16:39] <AlanBell> do you think popey is truly inspirational?
[16:40] <Twinkletoes> screen-x: Point taken, but still confusing :)
[16:40] <popey> o_O
[16:40] <AlanBell> do you think popey always strives to do his best?
[16:40] <AlanBell> do you think it would be funny to make him run a mile carrying a torch?
[16:40] <AlanBell> http://www.london2012.com/games/olympic-torch-relay/carrying-the-olympic-flame/
[16:41] <popey> uh oh
[16:41] <davmor2> last one
[16:43] <gord> i think he would drop it =\
[16:44] <davmor2> gord: harsh, you would drop it would you popey
[16:44] <bigcalm> Aren't we meant to be making David Tennant run with the tourch?
[16:44] <davmor2> isn't that the entrance into the stadium though?
[16:44] <AlanBell> well they are looking for 8000 people
[16:45] <davmor2> AlanBell: so we vote for David Tenant and popey right?
[16:45] <popey> I vote sladen
[16:45] <popey> on his brompton
[16:46] <davmor2> popey: he'd set fire to his hair, now stop trying to squirm out of it
[16:47] <screen-x> will there be a list of people to vote on? or are they relying on the number of duplicate nominations?
[16:49] <AlanBell> you have 1500 characters to put on the nomination form
[16:49] <oimon> we could get nick griffin to do the bit through whitechapel...sure that would go down well
[16:49] <oimon> he might not make it through alive
[16:51] <popey> \o/ home time
[16:51] <bigcalm> o.O
[16:53] <popey> Podcast tonight ☺
[16:53] <brobostigon> :)
[16:57] <AlanBell> it is only 300 meters each actually
[16:59] <davmor2> AlanBell: meh that's not far enough to make popey suffer so no point now ;)
[16:59] <DJones> I know of one guy that is being nominated by a lot of rugby league supporters
[17:00] <davmor2> might be fun to have David Attenborough run 300 meters :D
[17:04] <screen-x> is running a requirement?
[17:04] <DJones> Maybe this bloke http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1343911/Broken-heart-worlds-fattest-man-Paul-Mason-70-stone-cost-taxpayer-1m.html WARNING YOU MAY WANT TO POKE YOUR EYES OUT AFTER SEEING THE PICTURE
[17:04] <daysaver> list
[17:04]  * screen-x decides against following DJones' link
[17:05] <jpds> DJones: Now, they told us we were safe from anything Fukashima like.
[17:06] <DJones> Heh
[17:08] <DJones> Ah well 7 minutes past 5pm, done the payroll, sent it to the bank for payment, time to relax
[17:09] <Laney> penguin cafe orchestra ♥
[17:26] <daysaver> #
[17:26] <daysaver> #
[17:27] <screen-x> daysaver: you ok there? :)
[17:28] <daysaver> don't know how to use irc
[17:28] <screen-x> daysaver: welcome! I'm no expert... but what are you trying to do?
[17:29] <daysaver> I want to chat with programmers
[17:29] <MooDoo> later all :D
[17:29] <screen-x> night MooDoo
[17:29] <daysaver> how do you use join?
[17:29] <MooDoo> daysaver: /join #<channel name>
[17:29] <MooDoo> oh i'm using irssi :)
[17:29] <daysaver> how do you find channel names?
[17:30] <marxjohnson> daysaver: /list I think
[17:30] <daysaver> thanks
[17:30] <screen-x> daysaver: are you looking for a particular languague or project?
[17:31] <daysaver> c++
[17:32] <screen-x> daysaver: ##c++ seems to be the channel for that
[17:41] <an0key> even a thank you ;)
[17:46] <etneg> hi
[17:46] <etneg> im in a ubuntu  VM and host machine is win7
[17:46] <etneg> it keeps dropping my download connections half way through
[17:47] <etneg> on the same network it works just fine on xp though
[17:47] <etneg> any hints what could be going wrong
[17:47] <etneg> using a microlink connection that doesn't use the wan port of the router instead uses the LAN port
[17:47] <BigRedS> what're you using for the virtualization?
[17:48] <BigRedS> when teh download fails in ubuntu, does all networking stop working?
[17:48] <etneg> well even without ubuntu in VM, the connection keeps dropping my downloads
[17:48] <etneg> im downloading from win7
[17:48] <etneg> im getting a little confused, first the xp box is off,second ive tried without the vm same affect, third its a slower connection here
[17:48] <etneg> but im getting about up to 200kbs
[17:48] <etneg> it's shared
[17:49] <dogmatic69> so your windows host box drops connect?
[17:49] <etneg> the win7 box
[17:49] <etneg> not the xp one
[17:49] <screen-x> etneg: you have a win7 host with an xp vm and an ubuntu vm?
[17:49] <etneg> a win7 box with a ubuntu vm
[17:49] <dogmatic69> and win7 drops connections?
[17:49] <etneg> yep
[17:49] <dogmatic69> bah
[17:50] <etneg> well im downloading anything of say over 100mbs then all off a sudden the status bar will speed to the end and cut the download short
[17:50] <etneg> now if i try to downloading via ubuntu, well im still trying to now on the same file, but adobe is being a pain
[17:51] <etneg> download*
[17:51] <screen-x> etneg: did the ubuntu iso download ok?
[17:51] <etneg> this isnt about the iso
[17:52] <kaushal> hi
[17:52] <screen-x> hi kaushal
[17:52] <kaushal> how do i erase the hard disk running older ubuntu versions ?
[17:52] <screen-x> etneg: you mentioned that you had trouble downloading large files, so I thought an ISO would be a good test
[17:52] <etneg> it's downloading now, so may take a while to faulter
[17:53] <etneg> but it does the same on you tube bigger than 100mbs
[17:53] <etneg> screen-x: any file larger than 100mbs it cuts short off half way through
[17:53] <screen-x> etneg: going through a proxy?
[17:54] <etneg> screen-x: no
[17:54] <screen-x> etneg: check with something like http://whatismyipaddress.com/proxy-check
[17:54] <etneg> screen-x: im not using a proxy on the win7 box
[17:54] <screen-x> etneg: so whats sniping your downloads?
[17:55] <etneg> if i knew i wouldnt be here!:P
[17:55] <screen-x> :)
[17:55] <etneg> if i have a limited mac table in the router could this happen?
[17:55] <etneg> still doesnt explain why it works fine over xp
[17:56] <screen-x> kaushal: boot from live cd, run something distructive
[17:56] <kaushal> screen-x: like ?
[17:56] <screen-x> etneg: you have two computers, one win7 also vm host, one xp, both connected to the same router, win7 box has download prob, winxp box doesnt?
[17:56] <etneg> right
[17:57] <screen-x> kaushal: actualy, easiest way is probably to download a dban iso, and boot that.
[17:57] <kaushal> ok
[17:57] <screen-x> kaushal: have to be careful with that though, as it will obliterate all data on all disks..
[17:58] <kaushal> screen-x: but it does take lot of time
[17:58] <kaushal> can it made quicker ?
[17:58] <screen-x> kaushal: dban has a few settings depending on how paranoid you are..
[17:58] <davmor2> kaushal: days if you do the wrong settings,  hours if you get the right ones
[17:58] <kaushal> ok
[17:59] <davmor2> kaushal: depends on the size of the disk of course :)
[17:59] <screen-x> kaushal: if you aren't worried about making the data irecoverable, you can just delete the partition table with cfdisk -z
[17:59] <kaushal> ok
[18:00] <kaushal> screen-x: so no data can be recovered using cfdisk -z ?
[18:00] <screen-x> kaushal: no... if you use that, all the data could be recovered.
[18:00] <kaushal> then it is bad
[18:01] <kaushal> I dont want anyone to recover my data
[18:01] <screen-x> kaushal: dban is the way to go if you want to make sure the data is totally gone
[18:01] <kaushal> ok
[18:02] <screen-x> etneg: I don't know enough about windows to know why that would be happening. Could try booting the win7 box with an ubuntu live cd and see if the problem persists. That isolates windows, and suggests its a hardware or router issue.
[18:02] <etneg> well it cant be a router issue since it works on xp
[18:02] <kaushal> can i use quick erase method using dban ?
[18:02] <etneg> and also the win7 box worked fine before i moved
[18:03] <etneg> i moved to a new place and now its not working right
[18:03] <etneg> if it downloads right via the ubuntu vm o win7 then clearly it's a win7 issue but i cant tell yet since im still downloading the file
[18:03] <screen-x> kaushal: you can choose different numbers of passes over the disk. Total time depends on how big the disk is * number of passes. The more passes you do, the less chance of data being recoverable.
[18:03] <kaushal> ok
[18:03] <kaushal> so i will use dban
[18:03] <kaushal> and let you know
[18:03] <kaushal> Thanks screen-x
[18:05] <etneg> ok the download stopped prematurely
[18:05] <etneg> at 141 of 451
[18:06] <screen-x> etneg: which browser are you using for downloads? have you tried ff/chrome?
[18:06] <etneg> yeah
[18:06] <etneg> tried all
[18:07] <etneg> you think chrome is obstructing something?
[18:07] <etneg> or firefox
[18:08] <screen-x> etneg: things I would try next: 1) boot from an ubuntu live cd and retry the download 2) log packets with wireshark, to determine which end closes the connection.
[18:08] <etneg> wel i looked at the event logs on win7 and it reads
[18:08] <etneg> event id 1001 dhcp client
[18:10] <screen-x> etneg: was that event at the time the download failed?
[18:11] <etneg> screen-x: ye
[18:12] <screen-x> etneg: maybe give your win7 pc a static IP, and retry, to ensure it isn't a dhcp renewal issue.
[18:13] <etneg> if it was about renewal, then it would start a download at all would it?
[18:14] <screen-x> etneg: unless the dhcp renewal process occured during the download and interupted it. That is unlikely, I'm just guessing.
[18:14] <etneg> well i see this in the error logs too kernal event tracing id 2
[18:15] <screen-x> etneg: maybe best to find a windows related channel
[18:15] <etneg> na theyb usually suck
[18:15] <screen-x> I haven't used windows for years, so can't be very helpful on windows issues..
[18:15] <etneg> in all honesty linux channels know more lol
[18:15] <etneg> it's weird
[18:15] <screen-x> odd
[18:16] <AlanBell> etneg: are you behind a transparent proxy?
[18:16] <etneg> AlanBell: nope
[18:44] <jacobw> did anyone watch "all watched over by machines of loving grace" last night?
[18:44] <jacobw> bbc2, 9pm
[18:54] <advancedbraindam> hi i have a problrm with my cd burner it doesnt work every time i try the error message pop out
[18:55] <brobostigon> can you provide us with the error message please, and use a pastebin please.
[18:55] <brobostigon> !pastebin
[18:55] <advancedbraindam> http://pastebin.com/LYyXy11T
[18:55] <advancedbraindam> the save log
[18:56] <advancedbraindam> thanks guys hope that will help you to figure it out
[19:01] <AlanBell> "ID CRC OR ECC ERROR" is what the specs say
[19:01] <AlanBell> http://www.t10.org/lists/asc-num.htm#ASC_10
[19:01] <AlanBell> "SCSI error on write(8896,16): See MMC specs: Sense Key 3 "Medium error", ASC 10 ASCQ 00"
[19:02] <advancedbraindam> what does it mean dude?
[19:02] <AlanBell> advancedbraindam: sounds like a bad disk, but you have tried several I guess
[19:02] <advancedbraindam> ohh yeah
[19:02] <advancedbraindam> dvd s and cds
[19:02] <advancedbraindam> its the same regardless
[19:02] <AlanBell> it is talking about CRC (cyclic redundancy check) and ECC (error correcting code) errors
[19:03] <AlanBell> as if the data it reads back doesn't match the data it just wrote
[19:03] <advancedbraindam> i did reinstall the system few weeks back and i know there was some error during the installation
[19:04] <advancedbraindam> i have a picture of the error message let me type few lines for you
[19:04] <AlanBell> not sure I have any advice to offer really, the error message basically just says it didn't work
[19:06] <advancedbraindam> { 35553,424938} end_request: i/o error, dev sr0, sector 5534848
[19:06] <advancedbraindam> here is one of the lines after the install
[19:07] <advancedbraindam> it might be this what cause it
[19:07] <advancedbraindam> ??
[19:07] <MartijnVdS> Did you remove the CD-ROM before it asked you to?
[19:07] <AlanBell> that happened when installing from live cd in that same drive?
[19:07] <MartijnVdS> If not, this is normal
[19:08] <AlanBell> it might be a dodgy drive causing both issues
[19:08] <advancedbraindam> im not sure 100% but i wouldn`t eject the cd before the installation is complete
[19:08] <advancedbraindam> i was thinking about too that the drive could be the couse
[19:09] <advancedbraindam> however it work before the reinstall
[19:09] <advancedbraindam> never have any problems with it
[19:11] <advancedbraindam> is there a software to check the hardware status etc ???
[19:19] <KrisWillis> Hey
[19:19] <KrisWillis> Does anyone know how to launch an application on the desktop, but via SSH?
[19:19] <KrisWillis> For example, XBMC just crashed on my HTPC, I just killed it via SSH, but can't figure out how to start it again
[19:23] <gord> KrisWillis, DISPLAY=:0 xbmc
[19:24] <KrisWillis> gord: Thanks, that was one thing I tried, but if I disconnect my SSH session, it kills xbmc
[19:27]  * KrisWillis stops being lazy and plugs a mouse into it to fire it up
[19:28] <BigRedS> nohup?
[19:28] <DJones> ssh -X ?
[19:30] <KrisWillis> BigRedS / DJones : I'll have a play with them shortly, thanks - Just about to pop out
[20:25]  * popey points out http://podcast.ubuntu-uk.org/live/
[20:25] <popey> and #ubuntu-uk-podcast
[20:26] <shauno> no ustream this time?
[20:26] <MartijnVdS> NO U STREAM
[20:27] <MartijnVdS> (or: Y U NO STREAM)
[20:27] <shauno> :)
[20:28] <shauno> thought it worked pretty well last time.  if they could get it to use the same audio as the podcast feed does, it'd have been perfect
[20:31] <jacobw> i haven't listed to episode 6 yet :o
[20:41] <popey> shauno: sadly tony has rubbish bandwidth
[20:41] <popey> shauno: whereas I have excellent upstream
[20:41] <bigcalm> :D
[20:42] <bigcalm> Speaking of which
[20:42] <bigcalm> Must sign and return that contract
[20:43] <gord> o_O firefox just offered to upgrade to 5.0 beta
[20:43] <gord> how times change
[20:44]  * suprengr wonders if http://www.wired.com/autopia/2011/05/automotive-black-boxes/ will use Linux ;)
[20:45] <czajkowski> TREllis: ALOHA
[20:45] <TREllis> czajkowski: howdy
[20:45] <TREllis> czajkowski: happy now?
[20:46] <TREllis> czajkowski: :)
[20:46]  * TREllis hands czajkowski some peanut butter M&M's
[20:46] <czajkowski> TREllis: so wrong
[20:46] <czajkowski> peanubutter on toast
[20:46] <czajkowski> with a bucket of tea!
[20:46] <czajkowski> only plain choclate M&Ms
[20:46] <TREllis> czajkowski: noooooo! they rock, have you tried them?
[20:46] <czajkowski> TREllis: I'm easily pleased what can I say
[20:47] <czajkowski> no
[20:47] <czajkowski> tis wrong
[20:47] <gord> i tried peanut butter m&ms, i was not impressed
[20:47] <czajkowski> see and gord is wise about his food choices most of the time
[20:49] <brobostigon> uupc live is running in chromium, as if it was html5, but has a clear .mp3 extension.
[20:49] <popey> feel free to join us in #ubuntu-uk-podcast ☺
[21:05] <livingdaylight> who are we listening to on the podcast?
[21:06] <brobostigon> livingdaylight: jono.
[21:59] <brobostigon> auth.log scares me sometimes, :(
[22:09] <shauno> there shouldn't be anything scary in there?
[22:10] <SamJ190494> is the right kinda place to throw up an idea?
[22:10] <brobostigon> shauno: it feelslike it, likesomephraseslike, potential breakin attempt, and the like.
[22:12] <shauno> ah .. random chinese people trying to guess a valid username?
[22:12] <brobostigon> shauno: that also, i have sw, that auto puts those weird ip's, into hosts.deny.
[22:13] <shauno> yeah, I do something similar with fail2ban
[22:14] <shauno> altho it's almost entirely cosmetic.  they can keep guessing usernames, they're not going to guess a valid key :)  it just makes them disappear from the logs when they fail hard enough
[22:15] <brobostigon> :( eeeekkk
[22:18] <shauno> maybe badly worded .. they disappear because they're added to iptables, so they never show up on ssh .. not just removed from the logs.  they just never get far enough to appear in logs anymore
[22:19] <brobostigon> shauno: what i would rather it do, is stick every ipv4&v6 addr that falsely tries to login, into something, that locks that ip entirly out from everything, and "ufw deny" that ip, at the sametime.
[22:20] <shauno> I prefer to make sure the service itself is secured.  things like denyhosts and fail2ban stop them coming back.  but key-only logins stop them having a chance in the first place
[22:20] <brobostigon> shauno: inclusive ofhttp and anything else.
[22:21] <brobostigon> shauno: i have those lockeddownaswell, but i woulslike something to coordinate alittlemore,
[22:21] <shauno> to be honest, I wish it was easier to simply blackhole entire countries :/
[22:22] <brobostigon> i would rrather notstricktly do that,
[22:22] <shauno> well, mine's mostly a personal machine.  I've a small number of known users, none of them outside the EU
[22:23] <shauno> so if I could block asia completely, it'd be fairly sensible.  for most public machines, that wouldn't be a smart move
[22:23] <brobostigon> forthatm yes,
[22:24] <shauno> doesn't solve much, but there's several countries that keep showing up, where the signal to noise ration is an absolute zero  :/
[22:24] <brobostigon> hmmm,
[22:27] <shauno> I shouldn't say chinese people.  it's chinese connections.  I've one theory that the high priracy rates there mean a lot more machines running without updates. which'd make it botnet heaven
[22:28] <brobostigon> shauno: although, i have probebly done as much as i can, and lcokked down iptables asmuch as possible, and things likeapache, i reckon.
[22:28] <brobostigon> locked*
[22:29] <shauno> does denyhosts specifically block them from ssh?
[22:29] <brobostigon> aswell, i think so, yes,
[22:29] <shauno> if the lines it's adding to hosts.deny read "ALL: address", they may already be blocked from apache
[22:30] <brobostigon> shauno: sshd: only.
[22:35] <shauno> looks like that can be set in /etc/denyhosts.conf
[22:35] <shauno> look for 'BLOCK_SERVICE'.  if that's set to ALL instead of 'sshd', that's what the lines in hosts.deny will have
[22:36] <shauno> that'd remove them from anything that's built with tcp-wrappers, atleast
[22:36] <brobostigon> ok, let melook.
[22:36] <ujjain> What is a good price to compare hardware prices in the UK? (External hard disk)
[22:38] <shauno> not sure off-hand whether apache uses wrappers tho
[22:40] <brobostigon> shauno: found it,
[22:41] <brobostigon> shauno: good question,
[22:41] <jacobw> !ping
[22:42] <brobostigon> lol
[22:42] <shauno> apparently it doesn't.  you have to launch it from inetd to use wrappers, which makes it incredibly slow
[22:42] <brobostigon> hmmm.
[22:46] <shauno> I think I'd fall back to "you might wanna look at fail2ban sometime".  it's a bit messier than denyhosts, but it'll work with a lot more services.  and one of the options for actions is iptables-multiport, which simply drops that IP dead
[22:47] <shauno> you'd want to play with it on a local machine sometime first (automatically adding yourself to iptables sucks), but if you want to drop offenders site-side, it'll do that
[22:47] <brobostigon> ok, thank you shauno. i will look at that, can both run-side-by-side
[22:47] <brobostigon> ?
[22:48] <shauno> I can't see why not, but I haven't tried
[22:48] <brobostigon> ok, i will find some way of trying.
[23:24] <Azelphur> what can I use on Ubuntu to give me reminders of upcoming events?
[23:24] <shauno> google calendar :)
[23:25] <Azelphur> how would that give me a reminder?
[23:25] <shauno> it sends me text messages reminding me when my rent's due
[23:26] <Azelphur> for free?
[23:27] <shauno> I don't know if evolution is a sane option.  it used to plug into the clock applet via e-d-s, but I've no idea if that's still true for natty
[23:27] <shauno> yeah for free.  I'm not giving google money.  they have enough already.
[23:27] <Azelphur> awesome :P
[23:27] <Azelphur> shauno: wonder if it can do XMPP notifications
[23:28] <shauno> http://www.google.com/support/calendar/bin/answer.py?&answer=37242  says email, sms, or popups on the webpage :/
[23:29] <Azelphur> cool
[23:29] <shauno> that's all I actually use their calendar for.  one sms on payday, another when rent goes out
[23:31] <shauno> thinking about it, someone has to have done an email to xmpp gateway
[23:31] <Azelphur> hehe
[23:32] <shauno> !info sendxmpp
[23:32] <shauno> that + procmail.  sorted :)
[23:34] <Azelphur> shauno: could just use cron to send direct to xmpp on that basis xD
[23:38] <shauno> whoops
[23:45] <shauno> xmpp plugin for irssi looked interesting, but exploded on connect :/