[00:01] dogmatic69_: also throw in power consumption and upgradeability to your calculations [00:04] upgradeabillity? [00:04] power not an issue really [00:04] got a 800w(ish) power supply [00:05] if you just want speed, rather than buying twice the number of disks, just get a faster one [00:06] I guess with SSDs the power doesn't change when they are being used or not used [00:06] some redundancy is also good [00:06] with spinning disks in a raid they can't really spin down [00:06] but i wonder how much its needed if the ~/ is in something like synology [00:06] yeah, but I'd rather 1 fast disk, 1 slow disk and a nightly rsync to two slow disks in raid [00:07] assumign you can cope with losing everything since the last rsync n the event of disk failure [00:07] but a raid will faithfully duplicate Bad Things anyway, so even with raid you'll have a backup [00:10] hmm, so need backups even with a synology box [00:10] backups for the backups :S [00:10] well 'need' is perhaps a bit strong, but raid isn't backup [00:10] raid is redundancy [00:11] if you accidentally delete half the contents of your raid, it's instantly deleted. That's what backups are for [00:11] Raid is for when a disk fails but you need the system to stay up [00:12] raid *mostly* fulfils the criteria for backup in the event of hardware failure, but user error is way more common [00:13] ah, right [00:13] so im on the correct path, as ive read that SSD's die for nothing [00:13] well, all the time i mean [00:14] either way, though, you're never going to completely make everything safe, so you need to just pick sme amount of backup/redundancy that you want [00:14] yeah, I've heard they tend to go without warning [00:14] and it would just be a pita to reinstall everything every few months (read about 11 months is the average) [00:14] * dogmatic69_ has never had backups [00:15] mm, I'd be surprised if it's not gone up more recently [00:15] I gather they're gaining reliability at quite a pace [00:15] ISTR there's two flavours, too, a cheap way of doing it and a reliable way. the cheap way is in all the consumer kit, the reliable way is about twice the cost and sold to server people [00:17] so is there something similar to that mac backup thingy [00:17] time machine? [00:17] ye, thats it [00:17] cd / && git init [00:17] :D [00:18] LVM snapshotting is teh closest I can think of, or version control [00:18] haha, yeah [00:18] lol, people do that? [00:18] version control? yeah. of /etc/ and /home isn't uncommon [00:19] Oh. Time machine is just a cronned backup [00:19] crontab -e -> 59 23 * * * cd /&& git add . -m `date...` [00:19] runs hourly, creating hardlinks for existing files etc. [00:19] and push obviously :P [00:19] so any backup app should do that [00:20] ye, but it does only changes, keeps hourly for the day, daily for the last week, weekly for the last month and monthly till the backup drive is full [00:21] yeah, that's not an uncommon way for a backup thing to work [00:21] especially something user-friendly [00:21] i don't know of any off the top of my head, though [00:22] and I've just noticed the time; I should be asleep by now really [00:22] k [00:22] would be awesome if it was time machine compatible as that synology thing just works out the box for time machine [00:23] think i will def get one of them, the one at work is awesome [00:23] 4x 3TB drives for 9TB [00:23] you can mix and match with the hybrid RAID they do [00:23] yeah, didn't drobo do similar? [00:24] and it apparently as an 'apt-get' type repository [00:24] ye, but i think they are more web2.0 for the cool kids [00:24] oh for installing add-ons? [00:24] haha [00:24] oh yeah, there's an 'apps' bit of their site [00:24] very 2.0 [00:24] ye, it runs a slim version of *nix [00:25] the synology one that is [00:25] and the web GUI is very awesome, mad cgi skills [00:25] yeah, I assume pretty much everything's running a linux kernel these days [00:25] I'm normally right :) [00:25] hehe [00:26] at least its not in a JAVA vm :S [00:26] haha [00:26] binned the android last week [00:27] what've you replaced it with/ [00:28] iPhone4 :D [00:28] <3 [00:28] haha [00:28] sooo much better [00:28] and it goes nicely with my ipad :P [00:28] there's some BSD in there :) [00:28] * dogmatic69_ checks on the mac mini update [00:29] but... ubuntu stays ;) [00:29] haha [00:29] Anyway, sleep. that's what I need to do :) [00:29] I keep getting distracted... [00:30] same [00:30] almost 1am [00:30] eek [00:31] righto, I'm actually off now [00:31] tx for the help [00:31] pft, no probs [02:54] ever since i put 16gb in my computer ubuntu just flies [02:54] it's great [02:54] it never ever goes slow [02:55] especially firefox really shows a difference [02:55] the difference between 4gb and 16gb is like night and day [02:56] really? what do you run on it? [02:56] oh you know [02:56] ubuntu [02:56] firefox [02:56] pidgin [02:56] that's about it [02:56] does it have several gigs of cached memory? [02:56] sure [02:56] 11GB [02:57] thats crazy [02:57] i know [02:57] i suspect the large part of the problem is the way firefox caches everything in ram and in disk [02:57] as i explained before [02:58] i suspect that means that everything in firefox's disk cache ends up in ram due to filesystem caching [02:58] and then firefox's ram cache gets swapped out due to swappiness [02:58] there is 11gigs of stuff going in in your computer which you have no idea about [02:58] no, it's filesystem cache [02:59] your computer is plotting against you in there, any day now it will figure away to reroute mains into your keyboard [02:59] only 3.5gb is really used [02:59] http://pastebin.com/2jZndW25 [03:00] 8gb would probably be enough [03:00] but sometimes i like to run VMs as well [03:00] that stuff about ddr using 15w/gb is completely false btw [03:01] you have 32gig of swap? [03:01] yes [03:02] i think the rule of thumb for having 2x as much swap as memory went out the window when pcs started to get memory in gigabytes [03:03] when i had 4gb [03:03] i quite often saw up to 12gb and more of swap in use [03:03] due to badly written programs [03:03] that's why i have 32gb [03:03] and it's why i know have 16gb ram too [03:05] my next project will be to build a quiet cooling system for my new uber video card, on the cheap [03:06] i'm thinking removing the onboard fan, replace with 2x 120mm case fans, some ducting, and a t piece [03:09] i just cleared half my ram by killing hardware monitor [03:09] haha [03:09] yes, on maverick? [03:09] gnome-system-monitor? [03:12] no it's lucid [03:13] ah even worse [03:13] and it was system monitor 1.4.2 [03:13] i got that bug fixed upstream [03:13] it's fixed in natty [03:13] g-s-m polls a lot of dbus calls [03:13] and then never frees the responses it gets, ever [03:13] the filesystems tab is particularly bad [03:14] *polled [03:14] well it did when i killed it [03:14] &was [03:14] etc [03:14] it's fixed now [03:14] yeah killing it will free the memory of course :) [03:14] for ages i had been wondering why my memory seemed to get worse over time [03:15] everyone telling me no linux doesnt need to be restarted it should run forever without problems, well mine kept slowing down after a week or 2 [03:16] yeah that doesn't apply to gnome [03:17] now how do i get it to drop it's swap back into memory? [03:18] turn off all swap partition :) [03:26] i'm looking at air conditioning stuff on b&q [03:26] it's amazing, idk why people don't use it to cool computers more [03:27] a lot of it is the perfect size for computer bays [03:59] i see no things of such size [04:00] when i own my own house aircondition is going to be high on my list of things to get installed [04:01] people who say oh it's never that hot in this country we dont need it mah mah mah mah mah, should try living a day in august as a ginger [04:26] i have to leave my windows open and heating off pretty much all year because of computers [06:45] morning all [07:00] o/ [07:35] morning all [07:36] o/ [08:00] Anyone know where I can get recordings of the video streams of yesterdays Public Accounts Committee on the NHS IT programme? [08:00] Didn't find out it was going on until I was trapped on a train. [08:02] awilkins: yes [08:02] I downloaded the whole thing it is an epic [08:03] So I heard (disclaimer ; I work for NPfIT) [08:03] http://www.twofourdigital.net/UKParliament/Archive/0000016153.wmv.asx [08:04] particularly enjoyed the BT bloke blaming the existence of facebook and twitter for their management failure [08:04] Aha Aha Aha. [08:04] Does it start off silent? Or do I just not have the right codecs for Totem? [08:05] 3 minutes of silence [08:05] I shall change players and dump the stream to disk anyway, methinks [08:05] I used vlc [08:06] in act 2 they explain how it was a total disaster from the start, they have billions left to spend and it would be cheaper to spend the billions than cancel the contract [08:06] because CSC and BT don't think they are in breach of contract so might sue the NHS if they cancel [08:08] * awilkins thinks it's all utterly mental [08:08] morning all [08:09] The NHS are large enough as an entity to create any kind of enterprise they require for support from scratch, so why go to a profit-seeking contractor... [08:09] they deployed 130+ interim systems that were previously declared unfit for purpose, because they couldn't build the one they were contracted to build [08:16] Ooooh, it's *already* really good. [08:17] Total squirming by this bloke when told "Back in 2003, as professionals you might have taken the view that this was undeliverable" [08:17] It's like the Apprentice, but I give a toss [08:17] the bloke is BT, the American lady is CSC [08:20] great bit at about 1 hour 20 when they stumble onto the subject of security claims over patient records [08:23] I have an interest there... I've got what I think is a partially workable design that might sort-of-work [08:23] they explain that the clinician will ask the patient for permission to access the medical records [08:24] "what if the paitent says no" [08:24] errr . . . . errr . . . . [08:25] In my system, if the patient says no, the doctor doesn't get access to their medical record [08:25] how does the patient enforce that? [08:25] And that's enforced cryptographically [08:26] so does the patient have a PIN or smartcard or something? [08:26] Smartcard, I would think [08:26] How does the patient enforce that if he's dying after being hit by a bus? [08:26] and his smartcard was crushed [08:26] ok, that is basically the question the PAC asked, if the patient has no portion of the key they can't say no [08:26] MartijnVdS, Well, I think that position is an extreme anyway... but this sort of question is useful [08:27] personally I think the GP should hold the keys [08:27] MartijnVdS, Really, in the "card crushed by a bus" scenario you are no worse off than default [08:27] awilkins: It's the most important one. I want people to know my medical history if they want to revive me after an accident :) [08:28] MartijnVdS, Then you would not be one of the people withholding all your medical records from doctors, presumably [08:28] awilkins: Maybe in non-accident circumstances, I would be [08:28] MartijnVdS, My system does provide for differential access levels (again, crypto enforced) [08:29] So you could have a summary sheet that detailed things people need to know if you're hit by a bus (allergies, etc) but keep the details of your infatuation with goats locked in your psych records [08:29] sure [08:30] but what if I'm hit by a bus while .. exercising .. my infatuation with a goat ;) [08:30] I think the goat will just have to pray that his BUPA premiums are up to date [08:31] Morning earthlings. [08:31] \o TheOpenSourcerer [08:32] Afternoon [08:32] AlanBell, I agree with keyholders only being parties with what's called a "Legitimate Relationship" (LR) in the trade. [08:33] AlanBell, Specifically, by default, you naturally have a key to any record you create, and the patient and the record creator initially negotiate on how open their record will be (keys signed by GP practice, keys signed by trust, etc) [08:35] * TheOpenSourcerer fires up his WinXP and OS X VMs to test a new Joomla! module he wrote last night. [08:39] * TheOpenSourcerer grumbles about having to have a Win 7 VM soon so he can test with IE 9 & beyond... He reminds AlanBell about the licenses we have. [08:39] How much of a pain in the arse is it to install Ubuntu on a iMac? [08:40] TheAshMan: Dunno popey will probably know though. [08:40] I imagine it wouldn't be too bad, being *nix an'all [08:41] I seem to remember reading that there can be some major problems with certain mac's [08:41] hmm :/ [08:42] Try a LiveThumb and see what the hardware support is like [08:43] awilkins: Good idea! [08:44] Any one know who wrote a blog post about using Quicklists with ssh ? I read it a week or two ago but can't seem to find it atm [08:45] http://castrojo.tumblr.com/post/4536294249/more-quicklists ? [08:45] looking now ta [08:45] My google foo seems to have taken a tumble recently [08:46] that's the one, cheers awilkins [08:46] ! [08:48] It takes all sorts... http://www.massterra.com/ [08:49] TheOpenSourcerer: From a quick companies house search "The 30.06.10 accounts indicate that the company is either dormant or no longer [08:49] trades.trades [08:49] I can't say I am surprised... Bet he didn't get many cheques. [08:50] It would cost £1,680,000 to send me into space at his prices. :-D [08:50] Ex. VAT I assume. [08:51] No, looks as though its never traded === OmNomDeBonBon is now known as RaycisCharles [08:51] It might depend, a lot of public transport costs are vat exempt, ferrys etc, is there any difference to this? [08:52] "other bodily fluids" um, eww! [08:53] How you will be involved in space travel will be explained once you have completed a confidentiality agreement which you must sign and return to us by post. [08:56] hello [08:57] moo [08:58] :D [09:09] Ooo, next version of the Linux Kernel might be 2.8.0 or 3.0 [09:10] Ah well, that'll be nvidia not working for about 12 months :) [09:12] mm. and there's (again) talk of 2011.x.y and the like [09:12] what is this? Gentoo? [09:12] which I'm not sure I like, but I don't know why. I think I just can't see the kernel *not* being 2.x.x [09:16] morning kazade [09:16] Oooo, popey, I've been told you're the person to ask about install ubuntu on an iMac [09:16] O RLY [09:16] !mac [09:17] For help on installing and using Ubuntu on a mac, see: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MactelSupportTeam/CommunityHelpPages [09:17] lol [09:17] Ta! [09:17] morning popey [09:30] :( Installed Kubuntu on a spare box - but I get a blank screen every time I logout. The cli or KDM never return :'( [09:30] Got a Radeon X300 [09:30] I'm assuming it's an X issue [09:30] try alt-sysrq-K [09:31] http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/05/24/twitter_tweetdeck/ Shame they don't mention any source for the story [09:31] oimon: which key is "sysrq"? [09:31] wintellect: print screen (read the key :)) [09:31] wintellect: it's near/on print screen [09:31] MartijnVdS: and oimon: Ahhh [09:32] http://blog.jitbit.com/2011/05/what-if-drivers-were-hired-like.html ¬_¬ [09:32] oimon: presumably that's a "lowercase" K and not a shift-k, right? [09:32] wintellect: don't try it until yuo experience the problem or it will kill your current X session [09:32] yep [09:32] ok [09:32] will try at lunchtime - much appreciated [09:33] OOC - what does that key combination do? Reset X? [09:33] wintellect: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_SysRq_key [09:33] thanks MartijnVdS [09:33] yes, effectively, kills all processes on the virtual console, so you should get a gdm/kdm /login [09:34] I had a different issue today [09:34] wioll prob need to do ctrl-alt-sysrq-k actually [09:34] Moved my mouse to get the screen to turn back on.. and it turned back on [09:34] but it was black, all I could see was my mouse pointer (which changed shape as I moved over the different windows) [09:34] Ctrl+Alt+F1 -> still worked [09:34] Good morning peeps :) [09:34] \o bigcalm [09:35] Hi MartijnVdS [09:35] Aloha [09:35] czajkowski: *hugs* :) [09:38] * MooDoo prods czajkowski just because he's not done it in awile [09:38] Would that be a cattle prod? [09:38] * czajkowski stabs MooDoo [09:38] * MooDoo hugs czajkowski [09:38] :D [09:38] oimon: if that key combination fixes it - os there anything I can do to resolve my issue - or is that key combination the "fix" until a new release of X? [09:38] s/os/is [09:39] wintellect: dunno, i was just offering a workaround until the helpful #kubuntu or #radeon people can help you :D [09:39] is #radeon even a room? [09:40] apparently, it is [10:13] Why when I use a machine and the gui update manager to check for updates does it say there are no updates, but when I ssh into the same machine it says there are 86 updates? [10:16] DJones: you could have a stale /etc/motd [10:17] Possibly, been doing it for about a week, but just used vnc & ssh to check for updates and seems to have cured it [10:17] Goodo [10:19] DJones: i just use terminal update now, also have issues with the gui [10:20] dogmatic69: If it does it again, I'll have to try that [10:21] DJones: i have issues with jenkins, would not update in gui because the repo was not trusted or something [10:21] in terminal it has a 'are you sure' question which the gui does not handle [10:22] so it just stops everything, then you got to scroll through the list, untick it and go again :/ [10:23] untrusted repo is normally that it doesn't have a ppa's key etc, but I gues if a specific repo doesn't have a key it can never get one === denny- is now known as denny [10:25] awilkins: enjoy the rest of it? [10:27] AlanBell, Still watching, in fits and starts, but it's very amusing so far [10:30] I think the government suffers from the habit of going with big industry because that's what works for procurements which produce material objects [10:31] They need to get the hang of the idea that you can just conjure software out of the aether so you don't need people with huge capital to produce it (and that may actually work against them). [10:31] I mean, what huge software company has actually innovated in a way that didn't involve buying some smart startup (or being a smart startup in the first place)? [10:32] totally true [10:32] Infrastructure - yes. But TBH, the infrastructure is bobbins [10:32] AHA! Just bought a Sega Master System 2 on Ebay :D [10:33] N3 (the NHS segregated network) has a total of 30Mbit/s symmetric as a gateway to the greater internet (AFAIK). Utterly inadequate. [10:33] and you can see them in the PAC talking about Rio and saying it is perfectly reasonable to pay 1M/hospital for it, they are questioning why it cost 8.9M/hospital [10:33] yes, just got to that bit [10:34] NHS Mail - they moved from Samsung Contact to Exchange [10:34] kazade, my megadrive is *superior* to your sega master system! [10:34] sorry, i got flashes of being 10 years old again [10:34] So we went from being able to read out mail over IMAP to either using Outlook or the crappy web portal [10:34] And you have a 200MB mailbox limit and the search blows chunks [10:36] Why why why, if Google can give me free gratis for nothing, 8GB of mail space and a search that goes -pchow!- , for nothing but the privilege of data mining my loathsome ramblings for adverts I never view... why wouldn't you just bung them £50 a year per user and have a million-man email system that actually works well.... [10:36] And Office - we chucked the NHS-wide enterprise contract for Office licenses [10:36] the cabinet office chucked that [10:37] it was on the wrong budget [10:37] Presumably Office costs us in excess of 10s of millions of quid a year in licensing. [10:37] yup [10:37] For a few percent of that you could hire several full time C++ developers to work on LibreOffice. [10:38] And a few more Pythonistas to migrate horrific old VBA macros to Python [10:38] yup [10:55] awilkins: " And Office - we chucked the NHS-wide enterprise contract for Office licenses" [10:55] what do you mean? you got rid of office? or paid microsoft for a site licence thingy [10:56] oimon, We had an agreement that covered enterprise-wide use of MS Office in the NHS [10:56] oimon, This was cancelled and now trusts have to negotiate their own licenses [10:56] good morning everyone. [10:56] oh i see [10:57] oimon, Also, NHS staff were previously allowed Office to use at home at Cost of Media as a perk - this is no longer the case [10:57] awilkins: my Uni is going the opposite way - about to pay MS for a campus agreement every year... [10:57] the problem is, 70% or more of my dept use openoffice rather than MS products, [10:57] oimon, MS loves that kind of thing [10:58] they are microsftising the whole campus against the staff wishes [10:58] oimon, As does any corporate entity - they love getting their brand and products into educational settings [10:58] yeah, get people to learn your thing while they still want to learn something, see if you can have them not bother to learn anybody else's [10:59] didn't Adobe almost publicly state that their market share is grounded in students pirating their software? [10:59] I'm sure it is [10:59] How does this seem spec & prcie wise, I know its not offering android 3.0, but seems reasonable http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/10-2-Android-2-1-EPAD-TABLET-PC-ZT-180-e-reader-UK-/120656021215 [10:59] Actually, this was pre-macromedia-purchase. I suspect Flash on its own gets them a lot of CS license sales [11:00] If they made their DRM scheme actually hard to break, two things would happen i) Students wouldn't use it as much ii) Much more work would be done on the OSS products in the same niche [11:00] From an educational POV, I think proprietary products have so much less utility for learning because you can't poke around in their innards [11:01] yeah. And if students stop falling out of uni fluent in Adobe, their employers will use whatever it is that the students found to replace for free [11:01] morning ubuntu-ukers [11:01] I can understand it in trade schools, because you can successfully argue that these products are what they will use at work [11:01] morning [11:01] * davmor2 prods czajkowski [11:01] Morning mrwarmth [11:01] awilkins: I think that's true for compting students, but I'm not sure there's much an art student will gain specifically from the freedom of Inkscape/GIMP/whatever over the prop. equivalents [11:01] for example [11:02] * czajkowski puts davmor2 on the step, shhhh [11:02] (except being able to have their own copy with no issues, which is a *massive* win at uni( [11:02] czajkowski: no :P [11:02] here's how it went at my employer: consultant says this is what you need, although i don't know anything about how the university works. uni boss says OK. [11:02] yeah, that's unis trying to emulate business :( [11:02] BigRedS, Possibly not ; the flipside is that Inkscape/GIMP/Whatever would gain massively from having the input of a whole bunch of art students, even if it's just constructive criticism [11:03] Possibly helping them to eclipse the commercial products [11:03] DJones: lacking in RAM methinks [11:04] awilkins: yeah, that's partly why I want more unis to use free software [11:04] 'cause I want ranty students filing bug reports that make it better [11:05] but I don't think it's easy to explain the direct benefits to the students. Especially the ones who don't want to rant about software [11:05] oimon: Yes, but seems upgradable with sd cards (At least thats what the "TF card" seems to be, although never heard of TF card before [11:05] also, "Extended: TF card, U disk" - not sure what this means, but external storage is crucial too [11:06] Tiny Flash ? :-) [11:06] oimon: TF = Transflash [11:06] Original name for MicroSD from what I can read [11:07] lol [11:07] glad they changed the name [11:08] I'm calling them that from now on [11:19] g'day all - my new laptop has a Sandy Bridge CPU, which apparently isn't fully supported yet in 11.04 (noisy fan, plus Ubuntu froze on me just now) [11:20] what's the easiest way to get the latest kernel (2.6.39)? [11:20] http://kernel.ubuntu.com/~kernel-ppa/mainline/ [11:20] oooh. that *is* easy [11:21] thanks - I remember looking into that PPA a while ago, but it didn't work as I'd expected [11:23] I guess I should use rc4-natty rather than rc7-oneiric? [11:23] else, I suspect that the 'debian way' will work just as well under Ubuntu [11:24] oh right, I remember why that PPA wasn't good enough - it doesn't provide PAE kernels [11:24] BigRedS: what's the Debian way - compiling it manually? [11:25] nah, it's in-between that and a PPA [11:25] you use kernel-package to make a .deb out of your source [11:26] oh, but it requires that the source package for the version you want be in the repo [11:26] which isn't what you want [11:26] I forget we're not all luddites :) [11:26] so ... basically, there is no easy way then? [11:27] well, building your own isn't that hard [11:27] you could, presumably, get the source from that ppa and build it the debian way from that? [11:27] assuming they provide sources [11:27] Heh, a work colleague has just said that her daughter was given a spelling test at school yesterday...the list of words they had to spell was given to them typed on a sheet of paper [11:27] do you have a link that describes the procedure, BigRedS? [11:28] DJones, lol [11:28] FND_: http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/notes/debian/kernel-build.html looks about right [11:29] thank you [11:29] BigRedS, would adding this ppa work? https://launchpad.net/~kernel-ppa/+archive/ppa [11:30] I did something similar a while ago but I can't remember properly, but it worked [11:30] Ooh, that expects vanilla kernels. I suppose there's no reason to need the repo ones, you just don't get the Debian/Ubuntu patches that way. But there's no way to get debian/ubuntu patches on .39 yet [11:30] are those patches significant? [11:30] mrwarmth: that PPA doesn't provide PAE kernels AFAICT [11:31] also, it only goes up to RC4 for Natty [11:31] Hi all o/ [11:31] FND_: Occasionally :) I've lost track, I've not felt the need for a non-repo kernel in a long while [11:31] I guess I'll look into building the kernel from scratch - grub should make it easy to revert to the official one if needed === FND_ is now known as FND [11:32] yeah, just boot from the other one [11:32] actually [11:33] I might as well try the Natty RC4 one before I go off building my own [11:33] it might be Good Enough until Oneiric is released [11:33] FND: what are you actually setting out to acheive? [11:34] a) quiet the fan b) not have another freeze like before [11:34] Is this a learning excercise/just wanting new shiny things, or is there something particilar in the new kernels that you want? [11:34]