[00:04] <rick_h__> ok, funny: http://www.zdnet.com/blog/igeneration/video-obamas-beast-car-gets-stuck-on-ramp-in-dublin/10204
[00:25] <snap-l> rick_h__: Yeah, those cars are heavy as hell
[00:26] <snap-l> they had to make special arrangements to park over at Hope College when George Senior came to speak
[02:19] <jrwren> anyone ever use xmlrpc cmdline?  http://xmlrpc-c.sourceforge.net/doc/#xmlrpc
[14:12] <snap-l> Good morning
[14:13] <rick_h__> morning
[14:14] <snap-l> I was thinking of upgrading to Natty today, but with the machine revolt I have on my hands, that doesn't seem prudent.
[14:16] <greg-g> snap-l: I think I'd wait a day or two if I were you :)
[14:16] <rick_h__> revolt!
[14:16] <snap-l> yeah, that would be a good call.
[14:16] <snap-l> Well, my machine this morning was thrashing about
[14:16] <snap-l> apparently it had a page fault around 1am
[14:17] <snap-l> and that set everything into hell
[14:17] <snap-l> Not sure how one fills up 8GB on a desktop machine, but there we are.
[14:17] <snap-l> I think Miro might be to blame for that one
[14:17] <brousch> 1000 simultaneous tabs open with animated furrypr0n
[14:18] <snap-l> And then Microsoft Communicator crashed when I logged into work
[14:18] <snap-l> so I think my best bet would be to not upgrade today.
[14:18] <snap-l> Just feels like a recipe for failure.
[14:19] <snap-l> brousch: Maybe that's how you fill up memory on your machine
[14:19] <snap-l> but not here. ;)
[14:19] <brousch> oops
[14:20] <greg-g> brousch: you have a windows machine also, or in a vm?
[14:20] <greg-g> erm, snap-l ^
[14:22] <snap-l> greg-g: Separate work machine
[14:22] <brousch> i have a winxp vm
[14:22] <brousch> and a winxp desktop at work
[14:23] <snap-l> I have XP n a VM, but it's only because I was setting it up for JoDee, and moved it to her machine
[14:26] <greg-g> gotcha, I've just been running it in a vm on my laptop as needed. Luckily I don't need to use Office Communicator all the time
[14:27] <snap-l> yeah, unfortunately it's our IM of choice for work
[14:27] <greg-g> yeah, I think we have the option here, but I don't know who actually uses it instead of gtalk
[14:27] <snap-l> So, not a question of wanting to use it, as much as having to use it.
[14:27] <greg-g> right right
[14:28] <snap-l> greg-g: I'd check the closets of those who use it willingly for gimp masks and whips.
[14:29] <snap-l> Oh dear god.
[14:29] <snap-l> Just visited a corporate page that looks like 1998
[14:29] <snap-l> edit_prop.gif
[14:30] <snap-l> tables and everything
[14:31] <brousch> get off my web site!
[14:31] <jrwren> anyone know LVM well enough to recreate waht synology is doing with it with their hybrid raid setup?
[14:32] <snap-l> jrwren: what what what?
[14:35] <wolfger> what's wrong with tables?
[14:35] <wolfger> Nothing.
[14:35] <wolfger> :-p
[14:36] <snap-l> wolfger: when combined with .gif files that look like they came out of the same program that everyone used to make fancy buttons? Everything.
[14:36] <wolfger> Also: upgrading to Natty, snap-l? Don't you mean "upgrading to Oneiric"? Natty's old.  ;-)
[14:37] <snap-l> wolfger: You're right. What was I thinking?
[14:37] <snap-l> Stable system? Pshaw.
[14:37] <wolfger> As a prominent LoCo member, you should be alpha-testing
[14:37] <wolfger> :-)
[14:37] <snap-l> wolfger: No, you're right.
[14:38] <snap-l> Hand me your machine. I'll alpha test there. ;
[14:38] <wolfger> :-p[
[14:38] <wolfger> I'll be doing my own alpha testing on my machine, tyvm
[14:39] <snap-l> You'll do no such thing. You'll wait for the beta like everyone else. ;)
[14:39] <wolfger> was going to upgrade last night, actually, but wifi issues struck me again and ticked me off
[14:39] <snap-l> and then bitch when your wireless card tells you to stick it where the sun don't shune.
[14:39] <wolfger> :-)
[14:39] <wolfger> my wireless constantly tells me that anyway
[14:39] <wolfger> so upgrading makes perfect sense
[14:40] <wolfger> I'm hoping that by running alpha, I might actually get working wifi
[14:40] <wolfger> and if I don't.... no worse than stable :-p
[14:41] <snap-l> heh
[14:41] <wolfger> and I'm booting KDE to the curb again, too. Installed it at penguicon and it's rubbish
[14:42] <wolfger> Krashy McKrasherton is KDE's new name
[14:42] <snap-l> Ugh, that sucks,
[14:42] <wolfger> Kept trying to recognize my mouse as a display
[14:42] <jjesse> wolfger lots of crashes?  natty runs fine for me on kde
[14:43] <wolfger> because it was plugged into a hybrid port
[14:44] <snap-l> That's funky.
[14:44] <snap-l> What's a hybrid port? Something that can handle both USB and video?
[14:44] <wolfger> tell me about it
[14:45] <wolfger> "oh, somethings plugged in to your eSATA/USB port. It must be a monitor! Let me recognize it and bug you about which display you wish to use with a pop-up dialog box!"
[14:45] <wolfger> Until I instructed the box to never appear again, I was getting like 20-30 of them at a time.
[14:45] <jrwren> snap-l: synology is jst a custom linux with LVM. They have really nice wizards and stuff that basically let you add storage adhoc and let a single partition just keep growing, and get some redundancy.http://serverfault.com/questions/272776/how-to-do-the-equivalent-of-synology-hybrid-raid-on-linux-myself
[14:46] <snap-l> That's really funky. I've never heard of the hybrid port, but it's a neat idea.
[14:46] <wolfger> I suppose it is.
[14:46] <snap-l> jrwren: Ah, kind of like Drobo's filesystem.
[14:47] <jrwren> is it?
[14:47] <wolfger> but I'd rather have a dedicated eSATA and a 3rd dedicated USB
[14:47] <snap-l> or at least without the funky patented bits.
[14:47] <wolfger> in case I ever have a need for eSATA
[14:47] <snap-l> jrwren: http://arstechnica.com/business/raising-your-tech-iq/2011/03/drobo-review-1.ars
[14:48] <jrwren> drobo is slow as shit though :(
[14:49] <jrwren> snap-l: the end result appears like drobo's fs, but the means to achieve it are suggested to be very different in the synology
[14:49] <snap-l> Yeah, no doubt.
[15:23] <brousch> greg-g: who is this female you're referring me to that can help find more females?
[15:27] <greg-g> brousch: he isn't female :) Asheesh is an awesome developer I met when I was an intern at CC back in 2008. He's working on increasing the involvement of women in FLOSS in boston/philly
[15:27] <greg-g> jcastro would vouch for asheesh as well
[15:27] <brousch> heh
[15:29] <brousch> there are very few female geeks in grand rapids
[15:29] <brousch> i've really only met 3 women who use linux
[15:29] <greg-g> start reproducing
[15:29] <greg-g> well, for you, continue
[15:29] <brousch> i tried that, it came out a boy :P
[15:29] <greg-g> hehe
[15:32] <brousch> i don't usually try to actively find more women for the groups. i do make sure they don't have any sexist problems when they come
[15:32]  * greg-g nods
[15:42] <snap-l> Marry a physics geek, then you can turn them into a FLOSS geek. :)
[15:42] <snap-l> i do love all of the amateur sociology that occurs in these types of discussions
[15:43] <snap-l> It's like the female is a separate species.
[15:43] <brousch> she is, strange and mysterious. prone to fits of hysteria
[15:46] <greg-g> brousch: "i do make sure they don't have any sexist problems when they come"
[15:46] <greg-g> :P
[15:46] <krondor> aye, I was once yelled at by my SO one day because she found herself telling coworkers about Linux and understanding computer conversations.  She was made she had been slowly plied into a nerd.
[15:47] <greg-g> krondor: congrats!
[15:47] <krondor> well she was always a nerd I guess, but medical nerds != CS nerds
[15:48] <snap-l> medical nerds are a strange breed
[15:48] <snap-l> It's like they pay grosser than gross with each other
[15:49] <krondor> oh god yes, I like to pretend she just plays with puppies all day.  I can't even describe the dinner conversations...
[15:50] <snap-l> And then the guy started to ... [I'm SAILING a-way!!!!]
[15:51] <snap-l> and then ... [SET AN OPEN COURSE FO THE VIRGIN SEA]
[15:51] <krondor> hmm, rstat.us licensed with WTFPL a new license to me which pretty much reads exactly as you would think it would; https://github.com/hotsh/rstat.us/raw/be79740ed0f19b3a02e15dbcdbbdb8ca36509819/LICENSE
[15:52] <snap-l> heh
[15:52] <brousch> krondor: what does the detroit android group cover?
[15:54] <_stink_> snap-l++
[15:55] <krondor> brousch:  it's really broad right now.  Just trying to get android interested people in the same room regularly.  There's a couple guys that wanted to talk android dev, some want to talk hacks, some want just to talk phones/apps/tips
[15:56] <brousch> i'm thinking of starting one in GR
[15:56] <brousch> i should act soon while the grwebdev mobile dev meeting is fresh in people's minds
[15:56] <krondor> the attendance to the first one wasn't that great, but it wasn't posted that far in advance.  I think we had 6 people?  Hoping this is a bit larger.
[15:57] <brousch> the gr java group usually has 5 attendees. they had an andrid meeting and there were like 25 people
[15:58] <krondor> wow that's pretty large, I was hoping eventually it might hit the teens and I'd be happy
[15:59] <brousch> i was really surprised
[15:59] <brousch> but then we're dutch over here, and android is cheap
[16:01] <brousch> grandroid is a good name
[16:14]  * wolfger pictures a bunch of senior citizens with Android phones...
[16:15] <brousch> nice
[16:15] <brousch> not grand-pa grand-roid
[16:16] <brousch> wait, that is even worse
[16:18] <_stink_> grandpa's-hemorrhoids -> grandrhoid!
[16:21] <greg-g> oh lord
[16:21] <wolfger> yeah, I also pondered the grand 'roid path...
[16:24] <snap-l> Gr'android.
[16:24] <snap-l> There's something good in there, but I'm not seeing it at the moment.
[16:24] <snap-l> GRAndroid
[16:26] <brousch> jjesse: what do you think, is grandroid a large hemorrhoid, your grandpa's hemorrhoid, or the grand rapids android development group?
[16:26] <jjesse> lol
[16:26] <jjesse> grand rapids android group?
[16:27] <jjesse> no idea for sure though
[16:50] <rick_h__> I need a new job, the stupid here is getting depressing
[16:51] <jrwren> :(
[16:51] <jrwren> didn't you just move there?
[16:51] <jrwren> I think a software engineers job is dealing with teh stupid. its the biggest part of the job.
[16:52] <rick_h__> yea, a little over a year
[16:52] <rick_h__> the problem is I was brought in to help fix the stupid I guess, and over the last year I've managed to exact 5% of the change planned/hoped for
[16:53] <jrwren> is it a big org?
[16:53] <rick_h__> the motivation for self and project improvement is just at such a detrimental low
[16:53] <rick_h__> meh, 100-200 employees, dev team is 5 of us
[16:53] <rick_h__> be everyone is put on their project islnads and no cross talk/etc
[16:53] <brousch> the rest of the team is the issue?
[16:53] <rick_h__> makes it near impossible to help upgrade the rest of the team
[16:54] <rick_h__> so code never gets better, same stupid problems still exist, and the lack of motivatin on everyone's part to *fix* things is just not there
[16:54] <rick_h__> "why should I learn more about python to speed up my data load that takes 8 hours to run?"
[16:54] <jrwren> so no working together with the other 4?
[16:54] <rick_h__> "Rather than fix my project's architecture I'd rather have my own git server so I can create a new project each time we need an installation of one"
[16:55] <jrwren> sounds pretty defective. Its hard to steer teams into effectiveness
[16:55] <rick_h__> jrwren: no, most iteraction is an hour a week during team meeting where I toss out links, examples, etc
[16:55] <rick_h__> but no one ever reads, revisits, etc
[16:55] <jrwren> ouch.
[16:55] <rick_h__> at one point 3mo ago talked the boss into letting me pair with other devs 1 day a week
[16:55] <rick_h__> it's not once happened in those 3mo
[16:55] <jrwren> you should just do it.
[16:56] <rick_h__> yea, but when you try you get the "no time for that" every time for months on end
[16:56] <jrwren> taht isn't even a valid answer.
[16:56] <jrwren> it takes no time.
[16:57] <rick_h__> heh, welcome to my world
[16:57] <jrwren> you will be working on the same thing as if you weren't paring.
[16:57] <rick_h__> half the stuff I've even rewrote code for them
[16:57] <rick_h__> but never gets integrated/read through
[16:57] <rick_h__> and if I do get my redone code into their project, it does no good, they've not learned anything
[16:57] <rick_h__> never look at it again
[16:57] <rick_h__> there's a lack of will/incentive I guess
[16:57] <brousch> have you discussed this with your boss?
[16:58] <rick_h__> well, discussed the lack of progress
[16:58] <rick_h__> thus the pairing stuff, but no, not that it's getting to the point that I just worry about my project and build myself my own island
[16:58] <rick_h__> and that's why I'm debating starting looking again.
[16:58] <jrwren> you can't help those who don't want to learn.
[16:58] <jrwren> that is why I let my last job.
[16:58] <rick_h__> I don't want to just make myself an island with my way of doing things and sticking through it
[16:59] <rick_h__> yea, exactly. I know I'm bit of a glutton for punishment on that learning side
[16:59] <rick_h__> but geeze, one year later and most of the testing, build server, automating, is all stuff I wrote
[17:00] <rick_h__> eventually it'd be nice to get a chance to use code someone else wrote to fix a problem vs getting brought in to fix someone's problem lol
[17:01] <rick_h__> meh, sorry, just ranting. Had a staff meeting today and people still complaining about same issues they had 6mo ago that I gave instructions on how to correct
[17:17] <jrwren> oh the woes of being top dog
[17:18] <jrwren> the real bummer about being top dog like that is the learning is all on you. you don't get to learn from others.
[17:19] <jrwren> or even if your peers were equals you could converse adn learn, but it sounds like they aren't capable enough to even be your peer.
[17:19] <rick_h__> jrwren: yea, I read stuff like the 'in the plex' and you see a lot out of these startups with very smart people and crave to work with people that know more than me
[17:20] <rick_h__> fortunately, I'm nuts with learning/trying new stuff, but still, sometimes guidance from an experienced "been there/done that" would be awesome
[17:22] <jrwren> yup
[17:22] <jrwren> or even just someone who is on teh same page as you.
[17:22] <jrwren> problem is... going and joining a startup is usually a pay cut
[17:22] <jrwren> so... priorities
[17:22] <rick_h__> well yea, and kid, etc
[17:23] <rick_h__> I've got cushy where I work from home, do more time with the kid
[17:23] <rick_h__> the wife's the doc that works all the hours
[17:23] <rick_h__> yea, oh well, eventually figure something out. No job is permanent as I've learned
[17:31] <rick_h__> https://twitter.com/#!/niallohiggins/status/73063263386083328 discuss
[17:38] <wolfger> "corp firewall sucks" is the extent of my discussion on any Twitter link
[17:39] <rick_h__> ouch
[17:39] <rick_h__> "database is the last thing that is going to be fixed in the cloud" - so true, I/O on EC2 and friends is just awful today. #MongoSF
[17:40] <rick_h__> oops, wrong one
[17:40] <rick_h__> "caches are a workaround for databases that aren't fast enough" -- Dwight Merriman, @mongodb #MongoSF
[17:40] <rick_h__> ^^ is the one I found interesting
[17:43] <wolfger> I'll comment on the wrong one first.... Last thing going to be fixed, but first thing that needs to be. :-p
[17:45] <wolfger> Cache.... I don't think cache is a workaround. Cache is a tool. A smart one, that should be used regardless of whether your database is "fast enough" or not.
[17:47] <snap-l> Those MongoDB guys are so cheeky
[17:48] <snap-l> thinking they have the silver bullet
[17:48] <wolfger> ...unless your db needs are so ridiculously lean that cache is overkill, that is
[17:48] <snap-l> Well, they have a point, to a certain extent
[17:48] <snap-l> MongoDB is really fast at the database level
[17:49] <snap-l> So it could obviate the need for things like Memcache
[17:51] <snap-l> I can't give a concrete example of why I feel that statement is wrong, but it just feels wrong to make an absolute statement like that.
[17:51] <rick_h__> because caching is used all over the world of tech and is useful vs a sign of a problem
[17:52] <rick_h__> I mean sure, a CDN is a sign that you don't have ms response time from NYC to SF
[17:52] <rick_h__> but it doesn't mean it's bad
[17:52] <snap-l> rick_h__: I think you nailed what I'm thinking
[17:53] <rick_h__> and even with mongodb, what's an index but a cache of data?
[17:53] <rick_h__> it's a stupid statement meant to inflame people at a conference about a tool that wants to sell itself as pure awesome in a jar
[17:53] <snap-l> bingo
[17:53] <rick_h__> in my ever so humble opinion :)
[17:54] <snap-l> That's what puts me off on MongoDB, that arrogance
[17:55] <snap-l> Pretty sure if you turned off all of the bits ensuring that your data is safely written to disk, you could achieve blistering performance.
[17:55] <snap-l> ... with just about any DB.
[17:55] <snap-l> At least I can be pretty sure with PostgreSQL that the data is somewhere.
[17:56] <rick_h__> you can always work at near the performance of youd disk
[17:56] <rick_h__> /youd/your
[17:56] <snap-l> and believe me, I've seen PostgreSQL in very unhappy states
[18:02] <binbrain> and, for those of that haven't seen, take a moment http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2F-DItXtZs
[18:02] <snap-l> binbrain: Seriously? :)
[18:03] <snap-l> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GpOfwbFRcs
[18:04] <binbrain> "I suggest you pipe your data to /dev/null, it will be very fast"
[18:04] <binbrain> lol
[18:08] <snap-l> "How the hell do software developers get groupies?"
[18:09] <snap-l> Also: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_9H1WPV2Ws&NR=1
[18:18] <jrwren> MongoDB is just a giant cache.
[18:18] <jrwren> it just happens ot flush to disk... maybe... sometimes... if you are lukcy
[18:21] <brousch> miro syncs with android? http://www.linux-magazine.com/Online/News/Miro-4.0-with-Android-Sync
[18:21] <brousch> ftr, i hate linux magazine and it's damn pdf issue for the full article
[18:21] <brousch> want to read the article? 109MB download!
[18:22] <snap-l> Yeah, I saw that Miro 4.0 was ou
[18:22] <snap-l> t
[18:23] <jrwren> wtf is miro?
[18:23] <brousch> really?
[18:23] <brousch> like a feed reader for video
[18:24] <snap-l> and audio
[18:24] <snap-l> It's a podcatcher
[18:25] <jrwren> oh that.
[18:25] <jrwren> that is still around?
[18:26] <wolfger> Yeah. Used to be "Democracy" a long time ago
[18:26] <wolfger> I absolutely love it for the NASA videos
[18:27] <brousch> i love it for pycon videos
[18:52] <jrwren> meego 1.2 released 4 days ago... also... i like turtles.
[18:59] <wolfger> wheaton!
[19:01] <rick_h__> ok, this node.js is going to do some cool stuff I think
[19:01] <jrwren> node as in node?
[19:01] <rick_h__> node as in the js server side framework
[19:02] <rick_h__> peeking at using it do replace a dns/email checking service we run
[19:03] <brousch> jrwren: meego is bleh
[19:03] <jrwren> that is what I was saying. :)
[19:03] <jrwren> yeah, node is pretty damned cool.
[19:03] <brousch> turtles are cool
[19:04] <rick_h__> for stuff like this, dns checks, with lots of time spent in i/o, can really crank the req/s
[19:04] <rick_h__> throw the concurrent connections at it
[19:06] <brousch> js is finally taking over the serverside too?
[19:07] <rick_h__> yea, working on it in some cases
[19:09] <brousch> damnit, i'm finally getting ok at python
[19:12] <rick_h__> well it's not replacing all python, but for this one off corner server thing I think it'll be good/cool
[19:23] <jrwren> as long as it is blocking IO :)
[19:23] <jrwren> you can't magically speed up disks :)
[19:23] <brousch> greg-g: do we need to do anything for this? http://www.lczajkowski.com/2011/05/18/re-approvals-for-o-cycle-rules-and-overview/
[19:24] <greg-g> brousch: yeah
[19:24] <greg-g> I've been swamped lately and haven't gotten to it at night, I need to solicit some help with writing some team reports
[19:25] <brousch> email it to the list
[19:25] <brousch> we'll crowd-source that crap ;)
[19:26] <greg-g> heck yeah, will do
[19:32] <brousch> this looks like something i should read http://www.aosabook.org/en/index.html
[19:33] <rick_h__> it sounds interesting
[19:33] <rick_h__> but more as a light 'for fun' read I think
[19:35] <snap-l> I added that to the next IRC meeting (the team reports, reapproval, etc)
[19:36] <brousch> i am really poor at overall organization
[19:36] <greg-g> snap-l: thanks
[19:36] <snap-l> I'm not great at it either. :)
[21:40] <rick_h__> woot! got sign off to keep working on this as a node.js project
[21:41] <brousch> did they groan?
[21:41] <brousch> more new technology?
[21:42] <rick_h__> yea, there was some of that
[21:42] <rick_h__> and he got taking it too far "well, but what about this app and that app"
[21:42] <rick_h__> but I kept it down "for this use case, it's the best answer."
[21:42] <rick_h__> "all I'm talking about is for this use case"
[21:43] <rick_h__> besides, it fun to see req/s go by at 500+ :)
[21:43] <snap-l> rick_h__: Awesomesauce.
[21:44] <rick_h__> and with that I'll head home on a higher note
[22:21] <snap-l> Well, it looks like TweetDeck is officially bought by Twitter.
[22:22] <snap-l> http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/may/24/twitter-to-buy-tweetdeck
[22:24] <snap-l> Oh fucking hell: http://slashdot.org/story/11/05/24/2010222/Microsoft-Kills-Skype-for-Asterisk
[22:48] <snap-l> Apparently I'm too stupid to use Java.
[22:48] <snap-l> so, fuck it.
[23:45] <snap-l> http://www.reddit.com/r/Python/comments/hizdd/ides_for_wsgi_development/ <- I think I just heard rick_h__ die a little inside.
[23:52] <Blazeix> oh, man, working remotely via WinSCP?
[23:52] <Blazeix> shoot me now