=== freeflyi1g is now known as freeflying
jussiWhos turn to chair?19:03
jussiand tsimpson topyli around?19:03
* tsimpson is here19:03
jussi@random tsimpson topyli19:03
tsimpsonwait for topyli19:04
jussiI swear we shpould exclude ourselves from the random selection :P19:04
topylisorry i'm late19:07
=== gpc is now known as IdleOne
jussiheya topyli19:08
topyliah tsimpson was democratically made chair19:09
jussitsimpson: want to get us started?19:09
tsimpson@reload Random19:09
ubottuThe operation succeeded.19:09
tsimpson@random jussi topyli tsimpson tsimpson tsimpson tsimpson tsimpson tsimpson19:09
jussiyou cheated :P19:09
* tsimpson looks all innocent19:09
MootBotMeeting started at 13:09. The chair is tsimpson.19:09
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]19:09
jussiyour mistake was reloading here19:09
tsimpson[link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil/MeetingAgenda19:10
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil/MeetingAgenda19:10
jussiAll those here stick a hand in the air o/19:10
jussiwow, so many paying attention :/19:10
tsimpsonok, so previous actions19:11
ikoniaI'm paying attention, I just thought you meant from the council19:11
jussiahh, the bot records who attended by if you spoke duing the meeting time19:11
tsimpson[topic] remove idoru from #ubuntu for a 2 week trial and see if heaven falls/bad things (tm) happen (nhandler)19:11
MootBotNew Topic:  remove idoru from #ubuntu for a 2 week trial and see if heaven falls/bad things (tm) happen (nhandler)19:11
=== Tm_K is now known as Tm_T
topylithis has actually been 4 weeks now19:12
jussinhandler said: For idoru, we have had several instances where it would have been useful to have it in channel. It works well in conjunction with (not in place of) the floodbots.19:13
ikoniaI've not seen any problems without it19:13
jussiPersonally from what I have seen, idoru did get some spammers (we have had a few that didnt get killed), but the number of false positives was too high for my liking.19:14
topyliso yeah, heaven did not fall19:14
topylishall we keep idoru out for now then?19:15
jussiI would like a reconsider in 3-6 months after freenode have had a chance to review the code.19:15
tsimpsonthe only issue(s) with having the floodbots dealing with the spam is that, 1) other channels don't get protected when a spammer hits #u (which isn't technically _our_ problem), and 2) that we have more bans/quiets in our list19:16
jussiI think in essence its a good idea, but the implementation is not quite there yet.19:16
tsimpsonbut those aren't show-stoppers, just something to note19:16
jussitsimpson: the latter is more of an issue imho.19:16
topylithe former is more of a courtesy issue19:16
jussiI wonder if there peoples who would be willing to volunteer to regularly double double check the FB bans (although we all should be doing this anyway)19:17
tsimpsonif/when idoru gets some channel specific config, so we can fine-tune it, I'd be for all it19:17
tsimpsonwe do have some ops that regularly check the FB bans/mutes19:18
tsimpsonand I'm pretty sure ubottu can nag about FB bans in -ops (or where ever)19:18
tsimpsonas it nags in /msg to real ops19:18
jussiright, but we had complaints last time we did that?19:18
m4vtsimpson: it can, but was disabled afk19:18
jussiyes, it certainly can.19:19
tsimpsonwe really should be keeping a closer eye on FB bans/quiets19:19
IdleOneif you can set ubottu to nag me in PM about the FB bans/mutes I am willing to look them over19:19
tsimpsonjust generally, regardless of idoru or not19:19
m4vnote: I believe the nags are in NOTICE form, so ...19:20
tsimpsonIdleOne: it can nag people, but it can just send those messages to a channel instead19:20
IdleOneI mean we should do it anyway nag or not but it would make it more usefull to me19:20
tsimpsonm4v: I think we cleared up the NOTICE-hate on the ML, right?19:20
IdleOneI would be ok with notice to channel19:20
m4vtsimpson: if the lack of input except for rww is "all cleared up", then yes.19:21
jussiShould we have it NOTICE the -ops-team channel? It would then only affect ops, not get to users19:21
tsimpsonm4v: they can't say we didn't warn them ;)19:21
IdleOnejussi: that is a good idea also19:22
tsimpsonjussi: I don't think NOTICES are logged anyway19:22
jussitsimpson: oh, ok then19:22
tsimpson(that's kind of the point)19:22
m4vNOTICES aren't logged, that's the good thing about them19:22
IdleOnein that case we need to be stricter about the no idle policy in -ops19:22
tsimpsonit may be more appropriate in -team, I don't think it makes a huge difference19:22
jussiAhh, I thought it was just NOTICES as thats the rfc for bots in that situation iirc19:22
IdleOneif a user is in -ops they will see the notice19:23
tsimpsonjussi: well, the IRC RFC says that nothing should "react" to a NOTICE19:23
IdleOneunless it notices only +users19:23
jussitopyli: you got an opinion here?19:24
m4vIdleOne: I don't think so, at least for these notices, as is just about bans ocurring in a public channels19:24
IdleOneput the notices in -ops-team and problem solved19:24
topylii do have an opinion. let's have ubottu nag in -ops-team. it's not noise, it's relevant19:24
jussitsimpson: shall we vote? Unless anyone wants to make a case against it?19:25
ikoniaI'm tired of making a case against it19:26
ikoniathe bot already pm's us19:26
ikonianow it has to message us in a channel19:26
tsimpsonwell it can't /msg the floodbots now can it?19:26
IdleOnenot about the floodbot bans/mutes it doesn't19:26
topyliikonia: the bot doesn't pm anyone when flootbots own the ban19:26
ikoniathen stop the floodbots banning19:27
ikoniaor make them clean up19:27
ikoniafed up of getting pm's from ubottu, now it's going to notice me in the channel19:27
tsimpson[vote] have ubottu nag -ops-team about floodbot bans/quiets19:28
MootBotPlease vote on:  have ubottu nag -ops-team about floodbot bans/quiets.19:28
MootBotPublic votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot19:28
MootBotE.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting19:28
topylitaking care of your bans is part of the job19:28
ikoniajust house keep the bans as individuals on a regular basis,19:28
ikoniatopyli: yes, it is, getting hassled from the bot is not19:28
jussiHrm, one solution may be to notice the -ops-monitor channel - then people who care get notices, others do not?19:28
ikoniaI'm "ok" with the pm's but in the channel is not good19:28
MootBot+1 received from topyli. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 119:28
ikoniait used to message -ops and no-one liked it19:28
tsimpsonjussi: if we get more people in -ops-monitor19:28
ikoniaso why are we doing this again19:28
MootBot+1 received from CarlFK. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 219:29
jussiCarlFK: please dont vote, only the ircc.19:29
MootBot+1 received from tsimpson. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 319:29
tsimpsonwe have had _many_ occasions of ban lists getting full or nearly full, the floodbots can't realistically manage it's own bans, that's the job of ops19:30
IdleOneSo just to be clear the bot is going to /say in the channel and not /notice?19:30
ikoniatsimpson: fully accept that19:30
ikoniaI don't need the bot to message the channel19:30
topylii do19:30
ikoniadoes no-one remember when it messaged -ops ? and you ended up disabling it was annoying19:30
m4vIdleOne: all nags, when send to a channel, are NOTICES.19:31
IdleOnething is that it is easy to forget/ignore the bans that floodbot's set19:31
ikoniasending a notice to the channel won't change that19:31
ikoniaas I said, it was done before and we disabled it19:31
m4vsomething we can take note for the bantracker rewrite, instead of pm ops (or use a less annnoyin pm), keep a list of uncommented bans/quiets/removes, list that the op can review and make the comments.19:31
ikoniawhat's changed to make it not annoying now ?19:31
tsimpsonso how about we just try it out in -ops-team, and see how things are at the next meeting?19:31
ikoniawe've tried it before19:32
jussitsimpson: If thats included, ok19:32
ikoniait failed19:32
IdleOneso we need an effective way of getting those bans removed to not clog up the ban list19:32
ikoniaIdleOne: no disagreememnt at all19:32
jussi+1 (with the review in 2 weeks)19:32
MootBot+1 received from jussi. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 419:32
IdleOneikonia: ok, well the bots can't do it themselves and we are not doing it enough, reminders are needed19:32
MootBotFinal result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 419:33
ikoniaIdleOne: I'll state it once more for the record then drop it, jussi enabled this before, and we disabled it because it was worthless and annoying19:33
ikonianothing has changed to make it less annoying, so I don't know why we are re-covering this19:33
topyliit's needed. live with it19:33
tsimpson[topic] Take "Define ubuntu namespace limits" to the mailing list. (topyli)  (review)19:34
MootBotNew Topic:  Take "Define ubuntu namespace limits" to the mailing list. (topyli)  (review)19:34
jussiJust a clarification, this is only the week nag? or the nag on ban/remove/quiet19:34
tsimpsonjussi: should only be "old" bans/quiets iirc19:34
jussitsimpson: ok, thats what I was hoping to hear19:35
jussi(the issue before was it was nagging on every quiet and ban, when it happened)19:35
tsimpsonm4v: is it ^ isn't it?19:35
jussianyway, over to you topyli19:35
* tsimpson has a foggy mind19:35
topylioh that is not done19:36
ikoniajussi: I disagree, but I'm told "live with it" so it's of no-point discussing it19:36
topyliiirc. if i did send mail, there's been no discussion. need to check19:36
tsimpsonif it's on ban/quiet, we won't do it19:36
topyliah i sent the mail but there's been no feedback19:37
tsimpsonthere were 3 replies, then it died19:37
topylihrm. my search also fails19:38
tsimpson[topc] Add eir to #ubuntu (review)19:39
tsimpson(this is mine)19:39
tsimpsonthe plugin is pretty much ready, just need to test (in real channels) before going live19:39
IdleOneSo, no info on the namespace linits?19:39
tsimpsonthis is being setup19:39
tsimpsonIdleOne: feel free to restart the ML thread :)19:39
IdleOnealso tsimpson you missed an i in [topic]19:39
tsimpson[topic] Add eir to #ubuntu (review)19:40
MootBotNew Topic:  Add eir to #ubuntu (review)19:40
tsimpsonso to summarise, testing over the next day or so, then hopefully we can get under way19:40
tsimpson[topic] new bugs19:41
MootBotNew Topic:  new bugs19:41
jussiSo testing, then what happens - it goes into -ops-team and #ubuntu?19:41
tsimpson(running through as quick as I can)19:41
tsimpsonjussi: if all is well, yep19:41
tsimpsonit'll be a part of ubottu19:41
tsimpsonI did file this: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community/+bug/78850319:42
ubottuUbuntu bug 788503 in ubuntu-community "IRC Guidelines too #ubuntu centric" [Undecided,New]19:42
topyliwe do have a new bug, the guidelines translation issue19:42
jussiahh, this is important imho.19:42
tsimpsonit has had some response so far, but I'd like more people to look at it too19:42
tsimpsonto be clear, this one isn't about changing any policy/rules, but making the wording/content less specific to the #ubuntu channel19:43
IdleOneI think the guidelines are fine, any LoCo channels who want to modify can create a new wiki with the amendments they like.19:43
jussiI think this just needsw continued work - there isnt anything overly contentious here by the look of it19:43
tsimpsonIdleOne: but, I really don't think starting the rules for all core channels with "The #ubuntu IRC channel..."19:44
tsimpson+ is good19:44
tsimpsonit's not just #ubuntu, we have other channels too19:44
topyliwe might want to make it clear that translations need not be literal, as long as the message is the same19:44
IdleOneok so we can change that part to "The Ubuntu IRC Core channels...19:44
tsimpsonalso, as it's linked to from the TOS, which we want heavily translated, it should be as easy to translate as possible19:45
topylitsimpson: yes it might be a good time to review the language now that it's a hot topic19:45
m4vtsimpson: sorry, I had to leave for a while. I think we might have a issue there, I believe you can't have nags about week old bans/mutes without the nag about the comment setting a comment. But I think is fixable, I'll look.19:45
jussim4v: thanks. ++19:45
tsimpsonif, as a side-effect, that allows locos to use it, all the better19:45
tsimpsonm4v: ok, we'll just hold off until we get it working19:46
m4vIdleOne: making a new wiki with the o channels who want to modify can19:46
ScottKConsider this my pro-forma objection that the IRC Council owns anything in the Kubuntu namespace.  AFAIK you all are invited guests to help out with OPS, but they aren't IRCC controlled channels.19:47
tsimpsonI've covered the first item on the agenda, so we'll go on to the second19:47
tsimpson[topic] Policy on extra-namespace trolling19:47
MootBotNew Topic:  Policy on extra-namespace trolling19:47
tsimpson[link] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-irc/2011-April/001289.html19:47
MootBotLINK received:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-irc/2011-April/001289.html19:47
m4vIdleOne: I mean, it consumes everyones time, when basically all you do is change the wording for the same rules.19:47
jussinhandler says: For the policy item, I agree in principle, but don't like the idea of including every possible rule in the guidelines. I think this is probably covered by the existing rules we have in place.19:48
jussiI disagree, I think this is important to insert.19:48
topyliljl's idea does duplicate some freenode policy, but i think it does fit in our guidelines and is more useful than expensive19:49
tsimpsonwhat does freenode have in it's policy pages about it?19:49
m4vIdleOne: I *was* going to write our own rules for u-es, but then I thought, gee, every channel out there would need to do this. Why are these rules worded like this, it would be simpler if it was the same for everyone.19:49
tsimpsoncan we just link and say "follow freenode policy"?19:49
CarlFKI like "follow fn..."19:49
IdleOnem4v: I suppose you are right, making the guidelines a little more generic could be useful to the greater ubuntu community19:50
tsimpsonbecause I see the point nhandler is trying to make there, but I also see why we would want to have something like that in the rules (as long as it's not duplication)19:50
m4vI proposed an example for a translated guidelines, dunno if somebody looked at it.19:51
CarlFKtsimpson: are you suggesting we need something more restrictive than the freenode policy?19:51
m4vnot "translated", "reworded"19:51
tsimpsonCarlFK: no, I'm asking if it's already written in fn policy, if it is we can just say "follow freenode policy...". if not, we should write it down19:52
topyliactually the best thing i can find in freenode policy quickly is that they don't tolearate incitement of racial or religious hatred, "or any other behaviour meant to deliberately bring upon a person harassment, alarm or distress."19:52
MootBotLINK received:  http://freenode.net/policy.shtml#offtopic19:52
jussior any other behaviour meant to deliberately bring upon a person harassment, alarm or distress. We do NOT tolerate discrimination on the grounds of race, religion, gender, sexual preference or other lifestyle choices and run with a zero-tolerance policy for libel and defamation.19:53
jussiThat pretty much covers it, no ?19:53
topyliin legalese it does :)19:54
tsimpsonperhaps fn policy could be a little more explicit though19:54
tsimpsonbut that's something we can talk to them about19:54
jussiYeah, I think maybe for now its useful for us to add it, until freenode become more explicit?19:54
tsimpsonI'd go along with that19:55
topyliit doesn't hurt to mention it in our guidelines anyway19:55
tsimpsonwe all know fn doesn't tolerate troll-pits, they just need to actually say so :)19:55
CarlFKI don't think adding text about this will change anyones behavior.  It is handy for ops to have text they can reference when explaining to a user what is/isn't appropriate.19:55
tsimpsonCarlFK: same can be said for any of the rules, but we still have them ;)19:56
topylithat can be said of the entire document19:56
tsimpsonwe point people to the guidelines when they break rules, so they know what is/isn't acceptable, we don't want them to come back with "oh, but you didn't say I couldn't ...". we also don't want to have to write every little thing down either..19:57
tsimpson[vote] Amend the guidelines in reference to https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-irc/2011-April/001289.html19:58
MootBotPlease vote on:  Amend the guidelines in reference to https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-irc/2011-April/001289.html.19:58
MootBotPublic votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot19:58
MootBotE.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting19:58
MootBot+1 received from jussi. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 119:58
MootBot+1 received from topyli. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 219:58
MootBot+1 received from tsimpson. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 319:58
MootBotFinal result is 3 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 319:58
IdleOne+1 for what it is worth19:58
tsimpsonso who want's it?19:58
topylii can take ljl's suggestion and try to translate it from legal to english19:59
CarlFKtsimpson: isn;t the coc have things not covered by fn policy?19:59
topylihe's pretty much there19:59
CarlFKmeh, too late, never mind.19:59
tsimpson[action] topyli to update the IRC Guidelines (until freenode policy includes it)19:59
MootBotACTION received:  topyli to update the IRC Guidelines (until freenode policy includes it)19:59
tsimpsonCarlFK: we have extra rules in addition to fn policy, but we think that this one is probably best in fn policy rather than in our policy20:00
tsimpsonand we have covered the last item on the agenda too20:00
CarlFKtsimpson: that's what I was say-n :)20:00
m4vtopyli: I filled an IRC Guidelines example in the bug report if helps.20:00
topylim4v: grand, i'll have a look. thanks a lot20:01
topylioh i even remember it20:01
tsimpsonwe should probably say this here too for those who don't know;20:01
m4vthough I'm not sure anymore if we're talking about the same topic, got confused when I was away.20:01
tsimpsonwe have changed the time for the Saturday meetings to 11:00 UTC20:02
topylim4v: not completely the same :)20:02
m4vtopyli: ha I figured ;)20:02
tsimpsonso any other business not covered?20:02
IdleOneif I may20:03
tsimpsongo for it20:03
jussiJust a reminder to all that our next meeting time Has moved20:03
tsimpsonjussi: I just said that ;)20:03
topylijussi: tsimpson just... yeah :)20:03
jussioh bah20:03
IdleOneI would like the IRCC to consider giving +o access to -ops to ikonia rww bazhang and perhaps a couple others by bypassing the application process in possible20:03
IdleOneThey have been trusted members of the team long enough IMHO20:04
topylioh it's true that more ops should have ops in -ops20:04
tsimpsonwhat I don't understand is, when we opened the applications, we only had a couple of applicants20:04
topylino-one just bothers to apply20:04
tsimpsonit could be that the application process (for -ops) is a little too formal?20:05
IdleOnetsimpson: some of them are not keen on applying for something they cleary should already have. I tend to agree with them on this.20:05
topyliit's not hard to click a button on launchpad. the rest of the process can be quick because the applicants are (hopefully) well known20:05
tsimpsontopyli: well, applicants to -ops must already be an op in one or more core channels20:06
IdleOnetopyli: it's not that it is hard it's that it is hmm belittling (not sure that is the right word) but they don't feel they should have to apply and I agree.20:06
jussiPerhaps we can have a simple no need for application call for -ops, just simple approve/decline process?20:06
topylitsimpson: indeed, so we don't need to go through the same scrutiny20:06
topylijussi: just the "join the launchpad team" part20:06
tsimpsonI'm thinking we make a very simple rule on who can and can't be an op in -ops20:07
tsimpsonrather than having people apply at all, I mean20:07
jussitsimpson: like?20:07
tsimpsonjussi: that's the part I haven't really thought of ;)20:07
IdleOneI think 6 months as a core op without major issue is a fair rule to get _o in -ops20:07
tsimpsonmaybe if you've been an (active) op for X amount of time, you get +o in -ops?20:07
Tm_Twell, shouldn't someone have to do the click to get person to be member of the group in launchpad?20:07
IdleOneerr +o20:07
jussihrm, perhaps action yourself to come up with a proposaal for next meeting?20:08
topyliTm_T: yes they should20:08
jussiAnd there may be some who dont feel ready or dont want the responsibility in there20:08
topylihence i don't see why interested people won't click the "join group" button20:08
Tm_TI don't see how applying to be a group/team member is any reason to avoid doing it20:08
IdleOnejussi: those who don't want it don't have to use the +o20:08
IdleOneor can request it be removed20:09
topylii'd rather see people who are not interested simply not join the launchpad team20:09
jussiIm all for the $time as a core op with out major issue, then you can apply and be approved.20:09
IdleOneimo it usurps the ops authority in other channels when they can't remove a problem user from -ops20:09
topyliIdleOne: that might be true20:10
tsimpsonIdleOne: that's how -ops has been for a very, very, long time. not that it's how it should be, but that's how it is20:10
IdleOneif there isn't anyone around to do it it gives the problem user free rein to continue abusing20:10
tsimpsonand -ops is a little special, as it can be _very_ tempting to abuse your +o in there20:11
IdleOnetsimpson: lots of things are "how it's been" time to fix some of them :)20:11
tsimpsonespecially in heated situations20:11
topylithe thing with ops is that most of the time there is a problem20:11
Tm_T"if you're involved and there's other ops around, let them do the action" as a guideline would help?20:12
IdleOnetsimpson: also why we are supposed to remove ourselves (back away) when we feel it getting personal20:12
topyliso you can't just remove people when there's a problem :)20:12
IdleOnecatalysing is always the first step20:12
IdleOnebut sometimes we just can't20:12
IdleOneeven when other ops try to help20:13
tsimpsonif you are getting worked up, take a break20:13
tsimpsoneven when it's in -ops20:13
topyliit is true that sometimes trolls just aren't removed when they should be20:13
tsimpsonobviously you're the one who has to be convinced that <person> isn't going to continue to cause an issue in <channel>20:13
IdleOnetsimpson: agreed but not being able to take appropriate action can be what is causing some ops to get worked up.20:13
tsimpsonand if things are getting bad in -ops, it's unlikely that process is going well20:14
jussiright, so how can we resolve this? does anyone have an issue with: [29-May-11 22:09:36] <jussi> Im all for the $time as a core op with out major issue, then you can apply and be approved.20:14
IdleOneI am +1 with that jussi20:14
CarlFK"IdleOne: if there isn't anyone around to do it it gives the problem user free rein to continue abusing" - if no one is around, can abuse happen?  (tree falls in woods...)20:14
tsimpsonjussi: I think that's reasonable20:14
topyliit's a good proposal. those not interested simply won't apply20:15
IdleOneCarlFK: so we should just let the log readers have their fun in -ops?20:15
jussiSo what will be the $time? 6 months?20:15
CarlFKIdleOne: doesn't bother me.20:15
IdleOneCarlFK: bothers me some.20:15
IdleOnewe don't allow trolling in other channels why should we just let it happen in -ops20:16
topyliCarlFK: the issue is that there might be other ops trying to resolve an issue with a user. but since they don't have ops in -ops, they can't remove the distraction20:16
IdleOnejussi: I think that is fair and it should be auto for current ops with 6+ months under their belt20:16
CarlFKtopyli: that's a problem.20:16
tsimpsonjussi: 6/12 months, pick your favourite20:17
IdleOnethose ops who don't want the flag can just poke one of the IRCC to remove it20:17
topylieven if we make it 12 months, we'll get a good number of new ops and the situation improves immediately20:18
jussiWell 12 might be better, as then people have had a good amount of time to settle, learn the ropesetc. but Im not terribly against 6.20:18
Tm_Tthose who want to have the flag, can go and click the "join team" in launchpad themselves20:18
tsimpsonI'd still want people to apply, it's just that it gets "automatic" approval20:18
jussitsimpson: ++20:18
tsimpson"apply" is really the wrong word there20:18
topyli"report for service" :)20:18
IdleOneok we still need them to go click the button20:18
CarlFKIdleOne: personally I would rather let the troll burn up there time in an empty -ops than somewhere else. (empty taking into account people there that would be disturbed)20:18
jussiShall we vote then?20:19
Tm_TIdleOne: ye, it's either the op or IRCC clicking the button, I don't see why IRCC should do the work for them/us20:19
tsimpsonjussi: 6 or 12?20:19
topyliIdleOne: otherwise the other half will have to go and click "leave this group". what's the difference?20:19
jussitsimpson: Id say 12.20:19
Tm_T+1 for 1220:19
jussitopyli: 6/12?20:19
topylitopyli> even if we make it 12 months, we'll get a good number of new ops and the situation  improves immediately20:19
tsimpson[vote] Allow "automatic" approval of +o in #ubuntu-ops after 12 months20:20
MootBotPlease vote on:  Allow "automatic" approval of +o in #ubuntu-ops after 12 months.20:20
MootBotPublic votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot20:20
MootBotE.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting20:20
topyliso i say 1220:20
MootBot+1 received from tsimpson. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 120:20
MootBot+1 received from jussi. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 220:20
MootBot+1 received from topyli. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 320:20
MootBotFinal result is 3 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 320:20
tsimpson[agreed] "automatic" approval of +o in #ubuntu-ops after 12 months20:20
MootBotAGREED received:  "automatic" approval of +o in #ubuntu-ops after 12 months20:20
jussiWe need to write this down somewhere.20:20
IdleOneThank you IRCC20:20
tsimpsonso, if anyone wants ops, https://launchpad.net/~irc-ubuntu-ops-ops20:21
topyliwhere the rest of the application process is. we'll add a little section about the special procedure for -ops20:21
tsimpsonI can put something down on the op requirements page20:22
tsimpson[action] tsimpson to edit the operator requirements wiki page regarding auto +o in #ubuntu-ops20:22
MootBotACTION received:  tsimpson to edit the operator requirements wiki page regarding auto +o in #ubuntu-ops20:22
tsimpsonany other other business?20:23
jussiIm ok here :=)20:23
topylii'm in the middle of disaster here, but that's not for this meeting :)20:24
tsimpson[action] tsimpson to do post-meetings tasks20:24
MootBotACTION received:  tsimpson to do post-meetings tasks20:24
MootBotMeeting finished at 14:24.20:24
IdleOnethank you all :)20:24
=== yofel_ is now known as yofel
=== Quintasan_ is now known as Quintasan
j1mchey all20:57
Captainkrtekhey j1mc20:57
j1mchi Captainkrtek20:57
Captainkrtekmeeting in a few?20:57
DarkwingDuckThe doc meeting is in like 2 minutes right?20:58
Captainkrtekhey DarkwingDuck :-)20:58
Captainkrtekand yes20:58
DarkwingDuckHey Captainkrtek20:58
Captainkrtekhows it going?20:59
j1mchi DarkwingDuck20:59
DarkwingDuckHey j1mc20:59
j1mcDarkwingDuck: i knew your name sounded familiar, but i wasn't sure why...20:59
DarkwingDuckCaptainkrtek: it's been busy. Trying to get this thing finished for Tuesdays interview20:59
Rocket2DMnhey all21:00
CaptainkrtekDarkwingDuck, very cool, im going to propose the merge of my lucid branch tonigh21:00
DarkwingDuckThen I find out today that I was elected onto the Kubuntu Council21:00
Captainkrtekoh wow :D21:00
j1mcDarkwingDuck: congrats21:01
j1mcwe will give folks a few more minutes21:01
BravoDeltaLimaHi all21:01
DarkwingDuckj1mc: DarkwingDuck came off of my name, David Wonderly. I sign everything DW and DW was the nickname for Darkwing Duck in the show. So, it kinda stuck21:01
Captainkrtekhi BravoDeltaLima21:01
j1mcDarkwingDuck: nice21:01
j1mchi BravoDeltaLima21:01
j1mcBravoDeltaLima: are you here for the docs team meeting?21:02
DarkwingDuckHey BravoDeltaLima21:02
BravoDeltaLimajlmc, yes I am, I would like to contribute back to ubuntu and I thought I could start with documentation, because I don't do programming real well :-)21:03
DarkwingDuckDang this Wiki takes foreeeeeeeeeeever to update21:03
CaptainkrtekBravoDeltaLima, well welcome :-)21:03
DarkwingDuckBravoDeltaLima: Welcome to the club on non-devs working on Docs21:03
BravoDeltaLimaDW thanks21:03
Rocket2DMnare we just waiting a few minutes for matthew?21:04
DarkwingDuckj1mc: I'll be lurking, I'm in 3 meetings at once right now.21:04
DarkwingDuckHey Rocket2DMn21:04
j1mchi Rocket2DMn ... glad to see you here.21:04
j1mcyeah, i was going to wait until 5 after21:04
Rocket2DMncool sounds good21:05
Captainkrtekhey Rocket2DMn21:05
j1mcwell, it's 5 after - let's all have a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Tasks/Oneiric21:05
j1mchi vt21:06
j1mcvtanthropologist  :)21:06
MootBotMeeting started at 15:06. The chair is j1mc.21:06
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]21:06
j1mcthere's a lot that we can do for this cycle... lots of things to take care of.21:07
Captainkrteksure looks like it :-)21:07
j1mcwhat do you think should be our biggest priorities?21:07
issyl0Hi all.21:07
j1mchi issyl0 - we're just getting started21:08
Captainkrtekj1mc, how about the ondisk- web based topic?21:08
j1mcissyl0: we're taking a look at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Tasks/Oneiric and discussing priorities21:08
Rocket2DMnj1mc, i think the highest priority is making sure the docs for oneiric are up to date and available on time21:08
issyl0Brilliant.  I'll just let you know now then that I might only be around of half of this, but at least I'm here and eager.  :-)21:08
Rocket2DMnwe clearly slipped on that for natty21:08
j1mcRocket2DMn: right - so accurate and on-time docs.21:08
Captainkrtekagreed, I think we need to be done and ready to go on time21:09
j1mcCaptainkrtek: the web-based help is certainly a big issue21:09
Captainkrtekyeah we need to decide which docs online and which offline21:09
Rocket2DMnj1mc, what about web based help? html export? wiki? making translations available?21:09
Captainkrtekyeah thats a good topic to start with21:10
j1mc#topic - discussing web-based help21:10
j1mc#topic discussing web-based help21:11
j1mcanyone know what i'm doing wrong?21:11
Rocket2DMnmaybe it's case sensitive21:11
j1mc#TOPIC discussing web-based help21:11
Captainkrtekall caps21:11
Captainkrtekremove the hash?21:12
j1mcTOPIC discussing web-based help21:12
Captainkrtekwell this is embarassing21:12
issyl0It's [TOPIC] isn't it?21:12
Captainkrtek[TOPIC]  discussing web-based help21:12
j1mc[TOPIC] discussing web-based help21:12
MootBotNew Topic:  discussing web-based help21:12
j1mcthanks, all :)21:13
issyl0No worries.  Anyway...21:13
CaptainkrtekDiscuss on-disk vs. web-based help strategy, including plans for help.ubuntu.com21:13
CaptainkrtekI think all topics should be online and only some essential on disk?21:14
j1mcwe need to come up with a plan on this... i've made a simple mockup of something...21:14
j1mcbut i'm sure i've skipped some steps in creating a mockup.21:14
MootBotLINK received:  http://min.us/mvfcYuY21:14
Captainkrtekthat looks good j1mc21:15
j1mccan you all see that?21:15
vtanthropologistI see it21:15
BravoDeltaLimai see it21:15
j1mcone cool thing is that we can output mallard to epub now21:15
Captainkrtekoh nice21:15
vtanthropologistI like the idea of an epub version21:15
Captainkrtekwas talking to some of the Ubuntu-Manual guys, might do a kindle version next release21:15
j1mcCaptainkrtek: cool21:15
Captainkrtekmaybe release the help guide as a free kindle book?21:16
j1mcRocket2DMn: you helped with some of the xslt stuff in getting help.ubuntu.com ready, right?21:16
Rocket2DMnjust a few tweaks to our wrapper around the FOSS ones for docbook and mallard21:16
j1mci have a feeling that... for this release, we'll need to focus on getting a decent foundation in place for help.ubuntu.com21:17
j1mcgetting our strategy and infrastructure around it situated21:17
j1mcso that we can have a great site ready for 12.04 (which is an LTS)21:18
j1mcdo any of you have experience with web development?21:18
BravoDeltaLimanothing past basic HTML and using Wordpress21:19
Rocket2DMnnothing but some basics21:19
vtanthropologistI have a little, but are you thinking of creating a whole new site?  why not use the existing wiki?21:19
j1mcyeah, same here.21:19
issyl0Same.  :P21:20
j1mcvtanthropologist: good question. help.ubuntu.com kind of sticks out as a sore thumb compared to the rest of ubuntu.com21:20
j1mcalso... have a look at this: http://min.us/mvfcYuY21:20
Rocket2DMnall the branding and scheme is outdated, we dont have anybody with the experience to get it up to speed21:21
MootBotLINK received:  http://docs.openstack.org/21:21
issyl0j1mc: Does responsibility for rebranding that lie with us?21:21
issyl0s/us/the docs team/21:21
j1mcissyl0: i think we'd need to work with the canonical web and design group, at least to a certain extent21:21
Rocket2DMnto my knowledge, it's been up to each team to update their own sites, but we should be able to get help21:22
j1mcRocket2DMn: yeah21:22
issyl0Rocket2DMn: Yeah, I thought so too.21:22
Rocket2DMni know the forums are still outdated, they are planning a big upgrade soon though21:22
j1mcone good thing about the openstack stuff is that they host all of their code on launchpad21:22
j1mcand the woman who leads up openstack docs is really good and super friendly21:22
j1mcif you check out the browser view of that docs page...21:23
Captainkrteklooks very good21:23
j1mcthat's all done with docbook and a gsoc project21:23
j1mcbut... we'd need to talk this all out to get it well integrated, you know?21:24
Rocket2DMnlooks like javascript is required21:24
issyl0Oooh, very nice.21:24
Captainkrtekthat'd be a big jump from the current wiki21:24
j1mcCaptainkrtek: we're talking about help.ubuntu.com, which isn't a wiki right now. (not help.ubuntu.com/community)21:24
j1mcthe latter is a wiki, though21:25
j1mcRocket2DMn: what do you think? there would be a good amount to plan, but we'll just need to start on it.21:26
Rocket2DMni think i got lost between the ePub and openstack stuff - these are differnet right?21:27
j1mcwell, yeah. the openstack stuff would actually be more for the server guide.21:27
Rocket2DMnand docbook can be converted to be displayed like this?21:27
j1mclike the openstack stuff?21:28
j1mcyes, this whole setup is derived from dockbook sources: http://docs.openstack.org/cactus/openstack-compute/admin/content/21:28
Rocket2DMnit looks nice, we would have to get our hands on the transformation tool(s) and then write our own CSS for it to match the Ubuntu theme21:29
Rocket2DMnI don't have the time or experience to pull that off, but it could probably be done21:29
j1mcRocket2DMn: right... the good news is that all of the build infrastructure and transform tools are already in launchpad.21:29
Rocket2DMnso you said, but i think you're asking the wrong person.  You really need to bounce this off of Adam21:30
j1mci will do some initial work on that. i think i could do a test build of stuff over the weekend next weekend.21:30
j1mci've talked with him about it already, and robbie williamson from the server group likes it.21:31
Rocket2DMnok, sounds good21:31
j1mc[ACTION] Jim to do a test build of server docs using the openstack build setup21:32
MootBotACTION received:  Jim to do a test build of server docs using the openstack build setup21:32
j1mcis there anyone from the group who is interested in working up plans for help.ubuntu.com21:32
j1mcin general?21:32
CaptainkrtekI could in workin with someone else maybe?21:33
j1mcthe server docs are just one part, but we'll need a more comprehensive look at it21:33
j1mcCaptainkrtek: yeah, i think it's too much to do with just one person21:33
Captainkrtekif someone else is onboard then sure :)21:33
vtanthropologistI'd be happy to help with that21:34
j1mci would like to work on it, too21:34
Captainkrtekall 3 of us then :-)21:34
j1mcanyone else? i'm sure that we'll get more people later, but anyone else for now?21:34
BravoDeltaLimaI could help out also21:35
* issyl0 could do. :-)21:35
Captainkrtekso the whole team ;-)21:35
issyl0Captainkrtek: That's a good thing!21:35
Captainkrtekyes it is :D21:35
j1mcwe're all new to web stuff, so we'll see how it goes.21:36
issyl0Good good.21:37
j1mcwe should schedule a time to meet about the website21:38
j1mcand move on for now.21:38
Captainkrteknext sunday?21:38
j1mcwe'll schedule it via doodle?21:38
Captainkrtekthat works too :-)21:38
j1mc[ACTION] set help.ubuntu.com meeting via doodle21:39
MootBotACTION received:  set help.ubuntu.com meeting via doodle21:39
j1mcanything else on the website for now?21:39
j1mc[TOPIC]Bugs status report21:40
MootBotNew Topic: Bugs status report21:40
j1mcRocket2DMn: anything significant bugs that you could use help with?21:40
CaptainkrtekI can help with any bugs21:40
Captainkrtekjust need to finish some docs review tonight and I can do any bugs :-)21:41
issyl0Mmmm, bugs.21:41
j1mcmmmm  :)21:41
* issyl0 likes killing bugs. :-)21:41
Rocket2DMnnothing off the top of my head21:41
Captainkrtekbrb 1 sec21:41
Rocket2DMnanybody is free to post patches or merge requests though :)21:41
j1mcRocket2DMn: cool.21:42
j1mcok - next topic21:42
j1mcwe know we need to have docs done on time and accurate this time...21:43
j1mcand we know we need to work on help.ubuntu.com21:43
j1mcto me, other priorities are making sure we have good help for all of the default apps21:43
j1mcand building out our 'doc infrastructure' a bit...21:44
j1mc... stuff like our team wiki, a style guide, documenting our workflows...21:44
CaptainkrtekI will have a merge request tonight21:44
j1mcstuff like that.21:44
Captainkrtekwhoops late :P21:44
Rocket2DMnyeah, the wiki always needs work...21:44
vtanthropologistthat sounds like a lot of priorities for a small, part-time team21:44
MichealHj1mc: I could possibly do alot of work on XChat Documentation :P21:45
j1mchey MichealH21:45
MichealHHey j121:45
Rocket2DMnthe wiki is literally managed chaos21:45
j1mcMichealH: cool. doing xchat docs would be good. i think it is best to focus on apps that are installed by default on ubuntu, but if you did docs for xchat, and maybe helped out on docs for another app, that would be cool.21:46
j1mc[TOPIC] Docs for default apps21:46
MootBotNew Topic:  Docs for default apps21:46
MichealHj1mc: May I just ask wat this meeting is? I just walked in on it, i know ;)21:46
MichealHand there is nothing on the fridge ;)21:46
MootBotLINK received:  http://live.gnome.org/DocumentationProject/Tasks/ApplicationHelp21:47
j1mcMichealH: you have just joined the documentation team. :P21:47
issyl0MichealH: The Ubuntu Documentation team.21:47
MichealHIm in...21:47
j1mcthat link shows the status of gnome apps' documentation21:47
CaptainkrtekMichealH, we only focus on the help guide primarely21:48
j1mcbasically, if there's an app that you use... if we each just picked one to work on...21:49
j1mceven if we don't get all of the apps docs updated this release21:49
j1mcwe'll be further along21:49
MichealHj1mc: You guys have a IRC?21:49
j1mcwe can coordinate with gnome docs team, too21:49
j1mcMichealH: yes - #ubuntu-doc21:50
MichealHOh wow... Really close to the Channel limit of 120 :/21:50
issyl0MichealH: I'm pretty sure you *don't* need to be in that many channels.  Even I'm not!  :P21:50
j1mcwhat do people think about that goal - updating docs for default ubuntu apps?21:51
j1mcdoes that seem doable?21:51
Captainkrtekyes j1mc21:51
CaptainkrtekI could do a few21:51
MichealHissyl0: 118 channels is alot, It almost does not let my laptop attach that many....21:51
CaptainkrtekI use a ton and know a lot about each21:51
CaptainkrtekIm in 20 channels max21:51
issyl0I'm more of an editor than an author, so if any of you need editing help.  :-)21:52
MichealHj1mc: So its a conmplete re-write of docs or a bug revamp?21:52
j1mcMichealH: it depends. some apps might need a bigger rewrite than others21:52
Captainkrtekj1mc, do we have any new undocumented apps?21:52
j1mcissyl0: that is cool. there are some apps, like banshee or empathy that can just use some updates21:53
issyl0Yep, I'm up for that.  :-)21:53
j1mcCaptainkrtek: that page lists the status of many of the apps' docs21:53
vtanthropologistI'm probably better doing the updates as well if there are enough to share around21:53
Captainkrtekmissed it when I ran for a sandwich21:53
j1mcas a note, there may be some default apps, like software center, where if you want to contribute docs to that app, you would need to sign the canonical contributor agreement.21:55
j1mcit's only necessar for canonical-type apps, and you don't have to work on those apps if you don't want to21:56
j1mcthis is kind of a lower priority than the main docs work, but if we can contribute to this during this cycle...21:57
j1mcthat will be good21:57
MichealHj1mc: Wait, what agreement?21:57
* MichealH thought the CoC was enough ;)21:58
MootBotLINK received:  http://www.canonical.com/contributors21:58
j1mc^^ only necessary if you want to write docs for the certain canonical apps, like software center21:58
Rocket2DMnI'd like to see us focus on core efforts that we can maintain moving forward, rather than working on a bunch of different things that may be fun but that we can't maintain21:58
j1mcnot necessary for writing docs for something like banshee or gedit21:58
Rocket2DMnthen we can ensure that we do those core efforts well21:58
Captainkrtekanyways, next topic?21:59
Rocket2DMnwe're happy to help you get started on working with other projects' documentation though (like upstream Gnome and their apps)21:59
MichealHj1mc: Good to be safe than sorry, though ;)22:00
j1mcRocket2DMn: good point - we'll need to be careful with our resources and make sure we don't spread ourselves too thin22:00
j1mcok - we're up on our hour, so i want to wrap up in the next 5 min22:00
j1mc[TOPIC] Team wiki22:01
MootBotNew Topic:  Team wiki22:01
CaptainkrtekI can work on updating the wiki this summer22:01
j1mcas Rocket2DMn said, the team wiki needs some love22:01
Captainkrtekyeah haha22:01
Rocket2DMnlet's not confuse the team wiki at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ with the community docs wiki at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/22:01
Captainkrtekthis wiki https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/22:02
j1mci have done some initial work on recording what all is there so that we can reorganize it and get rid of cruft22:03
j1mcbut that isn't done yet.22:03
j1mcfollow-up at the next meeting on that?22:03
CaptainkrtekI gotta run, lunch, will continue this is the channel22:03
Captainkrtekin* the channel22:03
j1mclater, Captainkrtek22:03
j1mci can follow-up on the list about that22:05
j1mc... i know we didn't get to cover everything we might have wanted in this meeting...22:05
j1mcbut any additional comments from folks for now?22:05
Rocket2DMni guess we better plan to have another meeting soon22:06
* j1mc nods22:06
j1mcis 2 weeks ok? i will be out next weekend.22:06
vtanthropologistI'm ok with that22:07
Rocket2DMni'm unsure about my schedule this summer, i'll just have to play it as we go22:07
j1mcin general, do this time work for folks?22:07
Rocket2DMnthis time usually works out so people in Europe can attend without it being too late22:08
vtanthropologistit's a good time for me in Sydney22:08
j1mcgreat :)22:08
BravoDeltaLimaworks for me22:08
j1mcok - we'll tentatively set the next one for two weeks from now, then.22:09
j1mcwe can also have some convesations on the ML22:09
j1mc[ACTION] schedule next meeting for two weeks from today22:09
MootBotACTION received:  schedule next meeting for two weeks from today22:09
j1mcanything else?22:09
MootBotMeeting finished at 16:10.22:10
j1mcok - thanks for your time, everyone. i'll send the meeting minutes out to the ML22:10
j1mchave a good rest of your sunday!22:10

Generated by irclog2html.py 2.7 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!