[02:54] <micahg> mr_pouit: so, I got most of the plugins sync'd, the remaining ones either need a merge or FTBFS, would you consider using dpkg-vendor and having xubuntu specific stuff in Debian?
[11:07] <mr_pouit> micahg: I saw that, thanks for all the syncs! :)
[11:07] <mr_pouit> for dpkg-vendor, I don't know, I'll have to see with Corsac
[11:07] <mr_pouit> I'm not sure all deltas are worth that though
[11:09] <mr_pouit> especially for very ubuntu specific changes (e.g. when the design team decide to cripple gtk)
[11:16] <mr_pouit> and other "long-term" changes (e.g. different binary packages for tumbler) might evolve as upstream makes improvement (e.g. for tumbler, a gstreamer thumbnailer has been added in git, so the packaging split will not be needed anymore)
[11:17] <mr_pouit> I guess, let's make a list of the ones that still have some ubuntu delta ;-)
[15:18] <charlie-tca> Good morning
[15:20] <charlie-tca> Xubuntu community meeting in #xubuntu-devel in 5 hours (19:00 UTC). Everyone is invited to attend. Agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
[15:35] <pleia2> charlie-tca: can you let my mail through on xubuntu-devel? I used the wrong email addy :\
[15:36] <charlie-tca> I have to have cody-somerville do it. I am only admin on xubuntu-users
[15:36] <charlie-tca> cody-somerville: help please!
[15:36] <pleia2> oh ok
[15:37] <pleia2> sent it yesterday, follow-up to drupal theme question
[15:37] <charlie-tca> Oh, good. I was hoping you would have an answer to that one
[15:54] <charlie-tca> Kernel is in now going to 3.0.0
[15:59] <drc> Has Linus been talkinig to Patrick?
[16:00] <charlie-tca> I don't know, but he made the decision to jump to 3.0 instead of -40
[16:00] <drc> Yeah, I read that.
[16:00] <pleia2> wouldn't 2.8 have made more sense?
[16:00] <pleia2> nevermind, sense need not apply
[16:01] <charlie-tca> I don't know. Apparently it has not been enough time for 2.8 yet
[16:01] <charlie-tca> http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2011-05-30-006-41-NW-LF-KN
[16:02] <drc> Woah, I haven't heard the term "bikesheding" in ages :)
[16:02] <pleia2> lucky you :)
[16:03] <charlie-tca> stick around, it does get used in Ubuntu every so often
[16:03] <drc> Nah, Think I'll move to LMDE ;)
[16:04] <pleia2> charlie-tca: no meeting for me again this week, I'm in canada visiting my sister
[16:04]  * pleia2 will be out exploring edmonton!
[16:04] <knome> nice
[16:04] <pleia2> no updates though, still need to set up a wordpress test bed
[16:04] <knome> have fun
[16:04] <charlie-tca> no problem
[16:04] <pleia2> knome: thanks :)
[16:04] <charlie-tca> enjoy yourself
[16:04] <knome> pleia2, i could do that
[16:05] <knome> just doesn't make this non-sucky
[16:05] <pleia2> knome: yeah, I figured one of us would, I am reinstalling one of my servers next weekend so it would be no problem for me to toss it in and give you admin
[16:05] <pleia2> I was waiting to calm down from being annoyed at the suckiness ;)
[16:05] <charlie-tca> +1 on the knome statement. It has been very frustrating
[16:06] <knome> pleia2, takes me about 5mins to set up a wordpress installation :)
[16:06]  * pleia2 nods
[16:06] <pleia2> well, whichever one of us can, preferably in a place where we can both have ssh and wordpress admin
[16:07] <knome> mm-hmm
[16:07] <knome> that would be okay for me as well, but if you have your own server, that's maybe better
[16:08] <pleia2> yeah, I have one that I specifically maintain for ubuntu stuff (even though it runs debian, sshh)
[16:08] <knome> :)
[16:15]  * pleia2 back to canadaing
[16:15] <drc> beer, eh
[16:15] <charlie-tca> :-)
[16:18] <knome> beer, where?
[16:18] <Soupermanito> bear?!
[16:19] <knome> polar bears are here in the streets of helsinki
[16:19] <Soupermanito> :P you know what a polar bear is?
[16:19] <knome> i do.
[16:19] <drc> Bah...another day, another bØrked install :(
[16:19] <knome> :P
[16:20] <Soupermanito> its a bear who's mother is real and his father imaginary!
[16:20] <knome> Soupermanito, psst, i'm his father
[16:20] <Soupermanito> XD
[16:21] <charlie-tca> drc: nothing is installing today: Ubuntu desktop images broken, Kubuntu desktop images broken, Xubuntu alternate and desktop images broken
[16:21] <Soupermanito> D:
[16:21] <drc> At least it's consistent.
[16:22] <charlie-tca> Ubuntu and Kubuntu alternate images work
[16:24] <drc> bah...off to visit sister (in hospital, not Edmonton, unfortunately)
[16:45] <charlie-tca> !es
[16:45] <charlie-tca> knome: can we add #xubuntu-es to that factoid? You are better at it than I am.
[18:25] <charlie-tca> drc: how is your sister?
[18:26] <drc> ill, but not currently life threatening
[18:26] <charlie-tca> very good
[18:26] <drc> She's getting old (nevermind that she's a year younger than I am)
[18:26] <charlie-tca> I resemble old, too
[18:27]  * charlie-tca been told he resembles elderly at times, too
[18:28]  * drc positively states that although he is a curmudgeon, not he is *not* old. GOML!
[18:35] <drc> charlie-tca: Is there somewhere I can check to see if the daily images are known to fail (like today) before I DL and try to install?  I don't mind the fail, but it's just a waste of time is it's a *known thing*.
[18:36] <charlie-tca> This normally should tell you - http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/cd-build-logs/xubuntu/oneiric/
[18:36] <charlie-tca> but you can also ask here. I normally run them as soon as I can sync them.
[18:37] <drc> But that could be after tea time :)
[18:38] <charlie-tca> I also look at http://cdimages.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/      daily and daily-live      to see if new images were even created.
[18:38] <charlie-tca> Looking at daily-live shows we have not even created ov
[18:38] <charlie-tca> oneiric images yet
[18:38] <drc> yup, just alternate
[18:38] <charlie-tca> daily is the alternate image and daily-live is the desktop
[18:39] <charlie-tca> so, daily-live will fail until we get an image
[18:40] <drc> That log file is a large file, anything I'm looking for in particular (as in: I can search for)?
[18:40] <charlie-tca> normally search for ERROR
[18:41] <charlie-tca> or error, in the logs, but I don't think the alternate image is failing there
[18:42] <charlie-tca> at least, I don't see the error in there
[19:33] <charlie-tca> Xubuntu community meeting in #xubuntu-devel in 25 minutes. Everyone is invited to attend. Agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
[19:59]  * charlie-tca looks around for those attending the meeting
[19:59]  * micahg pokes his head up
[19:59]  * drc arrives early so he can get a seat down front.
[20:00] <drc> closer to the refreshments!
[20:00]  * charlie-tca thinks at least the front row isn't empty now
[20:00] <charlie-tca> Welcome to the Xubuntu Community Meeting!
[20:01]  * micahg could use some refreshments
[20:01] <charlie-tca> We have a few things to discuss today, the full agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
[20:01] <mr_pouit> o hai
[20:01]  * charlie-tca gives micahg a soda
[20:01] <charlie-tca> mr_pouit made it, too!
[20:01]  * micahg thanks charlie-tca for the soda
[20:01]  * holstein lurks as well
[20:02] <charlie-tca> Here is the agenda, for 
[20:02] <charlie-tca> those who can't get the web page to work today
[20:02] <charlie-tca> Old business - all
[20:02] <charlie-tca>     email the ML with proposed meeting days and times, Mon, Tues only for days
[20:02] <charlie-tca>     knome is to set up a tele-conference of some type to discuss marketing - carried forward 
[20:02] <charlie-tca> Team updates - Team Leads
[20:02] <charlie-tca>     Packaging & Development
[20:02] <charlie-tca>     Bug Triage & Testing
[20:02] <charlie-tca>     Website & Marketing
[20:02] <charlie-tca>     Artwork
[20:02] <charlie-tca>     Documentation 
[20:02] <charlie-tca> Announcements - Project Lead
[20:02] <charlie-tca>     TeamReports need to be updated
[20:02] <charlie-tca>         https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/TeamReports 
[20:02] <charlie-tca> Governance structure - all
[20:02] <charlie-tca> Any Other Business - all/anyone 
[20:02] <charlie-tca> First Item: email the ML with proposed meeting days and times, Mon, Tues only for days
[20:02] <charlie-tca> that isn't right. 
[20:03] <charlie-tca> We can not hold meetings on Tuesday or Wednesday
[20:03] <charlie-tca> I suppose the easiest solution to it would be to hold every other meeting on Sunday?
[20:03] <charlie-tca> All opposed?
[20:04] <charlie-tca> comments as to best time?
[20:04] <charlie-tca> by the silence, do we assume any time is fine for everybody?
[20:05] <micahg> I'm pretty open on Sunday
[20:05] <charlie-tca> Okay, proposed:  Hold the meetings on Mondays at 19:-00 and Sunday at 22:00 alternating weeks?
[20:06] <charlie-tca> mr_pouit: will that be too late for you?
[20:06] <charlie-tca> I am hoping for maximum participation if we get times that anyone interested can attend
[20:06] <mr_pouit> no, it'll be okay
[20:07] <charlie-tca> Any objections?
[20:07] <charlie-tca> motion passed by majority silence; Next weeks meeting will be Sunday at 22:00 UTC
[20:07] <charlie-tca> next item -   knome is to set up a tele-conference of some type to discuss marketing - carried forward 
[20:08] <charlie-tca> knome: Have you had a chance to think on this?
[20:08] <charlie-tca> Marketing plays a key role in almost every aspect of a distribution, so this is an important item for us.
[20:08] <charlie-tca> We need to get more people than me and knome involved in marketing, please?
[20:09] <drc> Define "marketing"
[20:09] <drc> please")
[20:09] <charlie-tca> This includes news releases, blogs, release parties, 
[20:09] <holstein> is there a marketing team? or wiki page?
[20:10] <charlie-tca> anything we can do to promote Xubuntu, including maybe open week, developer week, etc.
[20:10] <charlie-tca> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Marketing
[20:11]  * holstein bookmarking
[20:11] <charlie-tca> Team updates - Team Leads
[20:11] <charlie-tca>      Packaging & Development
[20:11] <charlie-tca> mr_pouit: updates?
[20:12] <charlie-tca> hm, silence is not GOLDEN today
[20:12] <mr_pouit> a few syncs/merges by me, for the main work: almost all panel plugins synced thanks to micahg ;-)
[20:12] <mr_pouit> sorry, laggy wifi
[20:13] <charlie-tca> I hate those lags
[20:13] <charlie-tca> Anything we can do about xfce4-notifyd : Conflicts: notification-daemon so we can get the alpha1 images to work?
[20:14] <mr_pouit> something is pulling notification-daemon, but I didn't really investigate what
[20:14] <micahg> I think we're pulling in the GNOME stack again
[20:14] <mr_pouit> probably a new dep since natty, because it was fine at that time
[20:14] <charlie-tca> yup
[20:14] <mr_pouit> yeah, very likely
[20:15] <charlie-tca> we have alpha1 this thursday, so if we can fix this, we get an image. At least go for the alternate image this time
[20:15] <charlie-tca> desktop images look bad for everybody today
[20:15] <micahg> can we switch to lightdm or is that too crazy to change? 
[20:15] <micahg> that should get rid of some of the deps
[20:15] <charlie-tca> Ubuntu already has, haven't they?
[20:15] <micahg> no, blocked on MIR, that doesn't affect us
[20:16] <charlie-tca> mr_pouit: what do we need to do to switch from gdm to lightdm?
[20:16] <mr_pouit> that it works ;p
[20:17] <micahg> it does, the sample greeter is good enough to log in with
[20:17] <charlie-tca> Can t test it until we have a working image
[20:17] <mr_pouit> (I've heard bad things from a pkg-xfce debian maintainer who has tested it, not sure it was the latest release ;-)
[20:17] <micahg> well, I have had 0.3.5 logging into xubuntu on oneiric w/out issue
[20:17] <mr_pouit> okay, then I guess it's fine
[20:18] <micahg> can't speak to working on an image though
[20:18] <mr_pouit> no pam/ck/pk issue?
[20:18] <micahg> wfm, shows a user list, but so does gdm by default
[20:18] <mr_pouit> eh, lag again >.<
[20:18] <micahg> I haven't stress tested it yet
[20:19] <charlie-tca> It is not forcing you to start gnome-keyring or anything?
[20:19] <micahg> once I login, it uses gnome-keyring
[20:20] <charlie-tca> If mr_pouit is okay with it, I am willing to fight with it too. It will help us get the bugs out of it.
[20:21] <micahg> oh, can we kick parole out of recommends?
[20:22] <mr_pouit> yeah, we should definitely switch to lightdm, but before alpha1, that's seems a bit difficult
[20:22] <charlie-tca> where do I find the seeds for Xubuntu? I need to know that too
[20:22] <charlie-tca> micahg: How about we switch right after alpha1 then, since we need to make an image work real soon like.
[20:23] <charlie-tca> hm, my lag just went up to 1 second
[20:23] <micahg> that's fine with me, I just don't remember what was pulling in unity
[20:23] <mr_pouit> micahg: it's the default "media" player after all (gmusicbrowser is only for music collections)
[20:24] <micahg> mr_pouit: orly?  I thought gmusicbrowser was supposed to do it all
[20:24] <mr_pouit> charlie-tca: launchpad.net/ubuntu-seeds, somewhere in code (xubuntu.oneiric)
[20:24] <charlie-tca> Thanks, mr_pouit 
[20:24] <charlie-tca> micahg: no, gmusicbrowser can not play a cd
[20:24] <charlie-tca> or a movier, either
[20:24] <micahg> ah, ok, I missed that then
[20:25] <charlie-tca> Isn't parole a movie player?
[20:25] <micahg> charlie-tca: re seeds: https://code.launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/ubuntu-seeds/xubuntu.oneiric
[20:25] <charlie-tca> Thanks
[20:25] <charlie-tca> so, parole will need to stay
[20:26] <charlie-tca> exaile was replaced by gmusicbrowser, right?
[20:27] <charlie-tca> Moving along in spite of our lags, next topic is Bug Triage & Testing 
[20:28] <charlie-tca> I have SouperManito and beardygnome signed up to test starting Tuesday. and I don't show either one here today :-(
[20:29] <charlie-tca> bugs might be getting ahead of us again, but mr_pouit is doing good trying to stay on top of the most serious ones.
[20:29] <charlie-tca> Questions for anything covered so far?
[20:30] <holstein> is there a testing wiki?
[20:30] <charlie-tca> yes, there is
[20:30] <holstein> i plan on running a test install ASAP
[20:30] <charlie-tca> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing
[20:31] <charlie-tca> I been trying each day to get the alternate images to install. 
[20:31] <charlie-tca> The good??? news is Ubuntu and Kubuntu desktop images also fail today :-(
[20:32] <holstein> :/
[20:32] <holstein> its early
[20:32] <charlie-tca> yes, it is, but with that alpha1 on June 2, it should be working today
[20:33] <charlie-tca> That brings us to Artwork 
[20:33] <ochosi> right
[20:33] <charlie-tca> Xfce now has a design team starting, which could really be a *big* benefit to us
[20:33] <charlie-tca> go ahead, ochosi 
[20:34] <ochosi> sry, people i'm late
[20:34] <ochosi> hope i didn't miss too much important stuff
[20:34] <charlie-tca> looks right on time, to me.
[20:34] <ochosi> so yeah, i started a design initiative in xfce
[20:34] <ochosi> together with JPohlmann
[20:35] <ochosi> it's mostly about optimizing the UI
[20:35] <ochosi> in general anyone can participate, but we haven't announced it yet on the xubuntu mailinglists
[20:35] <ochosi> i think the xfce-guys are enough for a start
[20:35] <ochosi> and then we'll see how it goes
[20:35] <ochosi> other than that i've been experimenting with small improvements to greybird
[20:36] <ochosi> but nothing spectacular yet
[20:36] <ochosi> there is a compact xfwm4 theme now
[20:36] <ochosi> it's not complete yet, but usable
[20:36] <ochosi> it's only 18px high, for those who want to save on vertical pixels
[20:36] <ochosi> about the xfce design stuff
[20:36] <ochosi> you're welcome to participate
[20:36] <ochosi> wiki page is here: https://wiki.xfce.org/design/start
[20:37] <charlie-tca> I think any optimizations upstream are going to benefit us, and might even mean less work at our level.
[20:37] <ochosi> and feel free to contact me or jannis in #xfce-dev
[20:37] <ochosi> yes, the kind of changes we're planning (and doing) should really happen upstream
[20:38] <charlie-tca> Any changes for greybird that we should be aware of?
[20:38] <ochosi> not really
[20:39] <ochosi> at least not at the moment
[20:39] <charlie-tca> Any questions about artwork or upstream design?
[20:42] <charlie-tca> Comments about anything discussed so far?
[20:42] <charlie-tca> Announcements
[20:42] <charlie-tca> TeamReports need to be updated - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/TeamReports
[20:43] <charlie-tca> This is the end of May, please feel free to add whatever you are doing for Xubuntu to this report.
[20:43] <charlie-tca> Alpha1 will be oversized, please don't report bugs about that
[20:44] <charlie-tca> The next linux kernel will be called linux 3.0.0 instead of 2.6.40
[20:44] <micahg> charlie-tca: actually, just 3.0 :)
[20:45] <mr_pouit> huhu
[20:45] <charlie-tca> We do have a support channel for spanish support, that is not included in the !es factoid
[20:45] <charlie-tca> It is #xubuntu-es, and feel free to direct those requiring support to it.
[20:46] <charlie-tca> Dapper Drake is EOL on June 1. Doesn't really affect us, but will affect those running a server with it.
[20:46] <micahg> \o/
[20:46] <charlie-tca> We are seeing an increase in users in #xubuntu. Let's try to 
[20:47] <charlie-tca> give them the best support we can. I know we are doing that already, and it really is great to see!
[20:47] <ochosi> mr_pouit: what are the chances we get the thunar startup-lag-fix in natty?
[20:48] <mr_pouit> there's no fix currently
[20:48] <charlie-tca> Governance structure
[20:49] <charlie-tca> At this time, until we have more participation, I do not see us trying to set up a governing council. I think I said that a couple of months ago, but want to make sure it is known.,
[20:49] <charlie-tca> I will be adding to the Stradegy Document how to select a new Project Lead by vote, though. 
[20:50] <charlie-tca> hm, there's that marketing thing again. increase participation in Xubuntu
[20:50] <ochosi> mr_pouit: i thought there's one in git?
[20:51] <charlie-tca> Thunar 1.2.2 was supposed to have the fix, I think
[20:52] <ochosi> mr_pouit: i meant that: http://git.xfce.org/xfce/thunar/commit/?id=5ce61f48171c9b95e8b89e0d2c53a7bfbeb9ac93
[20:52] <mr_pouit> ochosi: it's still not ideal, check xfce bug 7373, that was reopened
[20:52] <mr_pouit> ubottu: no, not that one
[20:52] <ochosi> oh, ok, i didn't notice it was re-opened
[20:53] <charlie-tca> https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=7373
[20:55] <charlie-tca> Any Other Business - Anyone
[20:55] <charlie-tca> Any one have anything to bring up? This is like an open mic time
[20:57] <charlie-tca> Thank you all for attending this meeting. Next meeting will be Sunday June 5 at 22:00 UTC.
[20:57] <charlie-tca> LEe
[20:58] <micahg> for open mic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykwqXuMPsoc
[20:58] <charlie-tca> Oh, before I forget, apps for Oneiric?
[20:58] <charlie-tca> Do we need further discussion on what is going into it?
[20:58] <charlie-tca> I want applications decided as early as possible
[20:58] <ochosi> micahg: this is not office-save :)
[20:59] <charlie-tca> someone want to go ahead and email the ML to get the applications picked?
[21:00] <charlie-tca> or are we all happy with what we have in natty and won't change anything except gdm to lightdm?
[21:00] <micahg> +1 I think
[21:00] <charlie-tca> Great!
[21:00] <charlie-tca> Glad we got a h
[21:00] <charlie-tca> happy bunch of people here.
[21:01] <charlie-tca> let's test this week! 
[21:01] <Unit193> Would we be able to add pastebinit?
[21:01] <micahg> mr_pouit: BTW, you can drop the browser plugin from parole as a recommends, Debian dropped and and so did we when I sync'd it
[21:01] <charlie-tca> Unit193: as a default in a menu?
[21:01] <drc> holstein: You still around?
[21:02] <Unit193> charlie-tca: It's a cli app that's nice for support
[21:02] <holstein> drc: o/
[21:02] <holstein> whats up?
[21:02] <drc> \o/
[21:02] <micahg> mr_pouit: actually, that poses a problem since we don't have a media plugin for the browser anymore :(
[21:02] <charlie-tca> mr_pouit, micahg : can we add pastebinit as a default installed application without a menu item?
[21:02] <micahg> charlie-tca: sure, I think :)
[21:03] <drc> You were talking about running a install test...was this a daily or periodic install test?
[21:03] <micahg> charlie-tca: although, we might have a space problem, thunderbird and firefox will bulk up this cycle (chrisccoulson is looking on how to slim them down), lightdm should give us some space though
[21:03] <charlie-tca> We have a person in #xubuntu needs help with his installed 11.04 sticking at busybox
[21:04] <charlie-tca> We aren't hurting yet for space, are we?
[21:04] <drc> holstein: You were talking about running a install test...was this a daily or periodic install test?
[21:04] <mr_pouit> yeah,we could add pastebinit if it's useful
[21:05] <holstein> drc: i have selfish motivations
[21:05] <charlie-tca> it is useful, when troubleshooting
[21:05] <holstein> ubuntustudio is moving to XFCE
[21:06] <holstein> and thats why i want to have xubuntu up and running ASAP
[21:06] <holstein> im looking forward to US being able to leech from you guys for a bit ;)
[21:06] <drc> holstein: Yeah, I read that somewhere.
[21:06] <charlie-tca> yes, we should welcome UbuntuStudio over to Xubuntu this cycle!
[21:06] <holstein> and i hope soon we can be of the size team that can contribute back :)
[21:07] <charlie-tca> and any help we can give them will be greatly appreciated, too.
[21:07] <mr_pouit> micahg: don't speak about that, I still don't know why the upstream dev decided to drop it :[
[21:07] <holstein> yeah, we are really excited about the switch
[21:07] <charlie-tca> And this is a good reminder that what we do does affect more than just Xubuntu.
[21:08] <micahg> mr_pouit: ok, well if it used mozilla specific interfaces, that would be a good reason, if it was pure NPAPI, no idea
[21:10] <charlie-tca> xfce bug 7373
[21:10] <micahg> \o/
[21:10] <drc> Don't forget about the BusyBox user in #xubuntu (I have no idea how to help him, or I would)
[21:11] <charlie-tca> That's right. mr_pouit has about a two to three minute lag, so I wanted to make sure we didn't miss anything from him before ending
[21:12] <Unit193> It drops to busybox if it can't boot anything else
[21:13] <charlie-tca> He is dropping to busybox every few boots
[21:13] <charlie-tca> If someone could help him out, it would be great
[21:13] <charlie-tca> I know enough to suggest an fsck
[21:14] <charlie-tca> Okay, I will get these minutes written up asap, and we will see everybody again on Sunday
[21:14] <charlie-tca> Thanks for coming 
[21:15] <charlie-tca> mr_pouit: thanks for putting with us with that lag of yours. 
[21:20] <mr_pouit> yeah, sorry /o\
[21:21] <charlie-tca> np, 
[21:21] <charlie-tca> no problem
[21:21] <charlie-tca> As long as we know to wait long enough, it works :-)
[23:27] <ochosi> charlie-tca: still around?
[23:28] <charlie-tca> yes
[23:28] <ochosi> i'm considering darkening the panel background a bit in greybird, what do you think about that?
[23:29] <ochosi> (menus would stay the same color)
[23:29] <charlie-tca> I think it will be harder to use
[23:29] <charlie-tca> I will have to go back to clearlooks then
[23:29] <ochosi> in what respect?
[23:30] <charlie-tca> The contrast becomes lower, I think is the words
[23:30] <ochosi> mm, not sure i get what you mean
[23:30] <charlie-tca> but I am not sure. I could not use bluebird for more than an hour or so, 
[23:30] <charlie-tca> it was too dark 
[23:30] <ochosi> ok
[23:31] <ochosi> would you mind trying what i'm proposing?
[23:31] <charlie-tca> sure, always willing to try
[23:31] <charlie-tca> and sometimes willing to say it is good, for most users, too.
[23:31] <ochosi> k, i'll hack together a new panel.rc and post it for you in a sec
[23:31] <charlie-tca> Okay
[23:33] <charlie-tca> I only seen one or two compaints on greybird so far, but then again, they never complained about bluebird either until greybird came out.
[23:33] <ochosi> what complaints did you see?
[23:33] <charlie-tca> too dark, hard to read the information on it
[23:33] <charlie-tca> which made no sense to me
[23:34] <charlie-tca> and when asked to clarify, they go away
[23:34] <ochosi> hmm
[23:34] <ochosi> ok, that's not really the kind of criticism i'm looking for :)
[23:34] <charlie-tca> I know. But if they refuse to respond when questioned about it, I don't really count it as meaningful.
[23:35] <ochosi> mhm
[23:35] <ochosi> this is the panel.rc
[23:35] <ochosi> http://pastebin.com/pmigKJQg
[23:35] <ochosi> you know what you have to do to use it, right?
[23:35] <charlie-tca> no?
[23:35] <ochosi> k
[23:35] <charlie-tca> explain again, please
[23:36] <ochosi> copy it to /usr/share/greybird/gtk-2.0/apps
[23:36] <ochosi> and then run "xfce4-panel --restart"
[23:36] <charlie-tca> okay
[23:36] <ochosi> that should do the trick
[23:36] <ochosi> awwh, fail
[23:36] <ochosi> copy it to "/usr/share/themes/greybird/gtk-2.0/apps
[23:37] <charlie-tca> that sounds right
[23:38] <ochosi> it most likely needs some more tweaking on the prelight and selected colors
[23:38] <ochosi> i mainly focussed on the panel-bg color for now
[23:42] <charlie-tca> looks too dark to me
[23:42] <charlie-tca> weather clouds blank out, timer is invisible again, 
[23:42] <ochosi> so the font gets hard to read or what's the problem?
[23:42] <charlie-tca> users will complain that the text is too bright
[23:42] <charlie-tca> no, some of the icons wash out
[23:43] <ochosi> would you mind posting a screenshot?
[23:43] <charlie-tca> for me, the text is bright, but easily readable
[23:43] <ochosi> i can darken the text as well, that's no problem
[23:43] <charlie-tca> I will screenshot the panel
[23:43] <ochosi> k, thanks
[23:44] <ochosi> then it's easier for me to get what you mean :)
[23:46] <charlie-tca> http://imagebin.org/155982
[23:46] <charlie-tca> but the images are brighter than on my screen
[23:46] <charlie-tca> dim the left icon (magnifying glass) and weather and timer bar a lot 
[23:47] <charlie-tca> They aren't really brightly visible
[23:47] <ochosi> the magnifying glass is appfinder
[23:48] <ochosi> i think the standard logo for the menu would be ok (it's a lot brighter)
[23:48] <charlie-tca> right, but it is almost faded out in reality
[23:48] <ochosi> yeah, i understand
[23:48] <ochosi> the weather icon is problematic, i agree
[23:48] <charlie-tca> It doesn't work if only some things are visible, though
[23:48] <charlie-tca> users can put anything on the panel
[23:48] <ochosi> hmm, yeah, but they can always put something on the panel that has the same color as the panel
[23:49] <ochosi> and that *never* works 
[23:49] <charlie-tca> and the stupid timer Is that black bar between the mixer and the weather
[23:49] <charlie-tca> true
[23:49] <ochosi> yeah, i didn't increase the contrast for the timer
[23:49] <ochosi> the timer is fixable
[23:49] <charlie-tca> okay
[23:49] <ochosi> appfinder is also fixable
[23:49] <ochosi> the main problem would be the weather plugin i guess
[23:49] <charlie-tca> like I say, users will probably like it, if the text is dimmed a bit
[23:50] <ochosi> so the text is too bright now?
[23:50] <charlie-tca> and the selection is darkened
[23:50] <ochosi> mhm, yeah, the selection needs more contrast, i agree
[23:50] <charlie-tca> text is too bright for most people, I think
[23:50] <ochosi> k
[23:50] <charlie-tca> I can't say for sure, I could use it this way, myself.
[23:51] <charlie-tca> It just seems bright to me
[23:51] <ochosi> hmm, i just checked, it's not really white
[23:51] <charlie-tca> let me shoot the bottom panels and see what it does
[23:51] <ochosi> i actually thought it would be FFFFFF, but it's F5F5F5
[23:52] <charlie-tca> my clock is FFFFE0
[23:53] <ochosi> mm, slightly yellowish
[23:54] <charlie-tca> http://imagebin.org/155986
[23:54] <charlie-tca> yes, I find the slight yellow tint easier than white on my eyes
[23:54] <ochosi> i can add a slight blue tint if you like
[23:54] <charlie-tca> My xchat  and terminal is the same
[23:54] <ochosi> i mean to the rest of the panel text
[23:55] <ochosi> ah ok
[23:56] <charlie-tca> It is normally so slight, no one can see the color change
[23:56] <drc> ochosi: you want another panel screenshot?
[23:57] <ochosi> drc: sure, go ahead, but i'm just about to pastebin a newer version ;)
[23:57] <drc> I'll wait
[23:58] <ochosi> charlie-tca, drc: ok, here goes a revised version: http://pastebin.com/nBb01Jkw
[23:58]  * drc was evesdropping :)
[23:58] <charlie-tca> putting it in
[23:59] <ochosi> drc: i'm always happy to get more feedback, so feel free to eavesdrop anytime ;)
[23:59] <drc> The panel text *is* better