[01:07] Bah, BT took down my broadband for engineering work without informing me [01:07] How hard is it to send an email [01:10] for someone as competent as bt? maybe quite hard ;) [03:06] now this bugs me .. a command with output I can't seem to redirect away from the terminal [05:45] shauno: maybe it's using STDERR? [08:00] morning [08:20] morning all [08:27] Morning [08:31] aloha [08:32] no more bank holidays until August - how will I cope? [08:33] danfish: Take some regular days off :) [08:35] MartijnVdS: true, but the key is not telling the other half or a large list of jobs to do around the house will appear ;) [08:36] So the kernel is moving to "3" - I wonder what that'll break [08:36] danfish: Easy :) Just don't tell. :) [08:36] danfish: lots of custom build scripts [08:37] yes, could be messy [08:57] hello all === MooDoo_ is now known as MooDoo [09:17] morning all [09:17] hello [09:38] popey: Is this what you were waiting to look at http://event.asus.com/mobile/padfone/ seem to remember you saying about it [09:54] DJones: that looks like a very nice device. Cheesiest advert though... [09:55] interesting device [09:56] danfish: I've not looked at the advert, but certainly looks interesting, I guess its usefulness will depend on its specification one details get released [09:57] i refuse on very fundamental grounds to own anything that refers to itself in part or wholly as a "fone" =\ [09:58] DJones: and no price point published - always suspicious ;) [09:58] Morning peeps [09:58] considering that a tablet is a luxury device, i guess the people that buy luxury devices don't want to fanny around slotting their phone into a tablet, they would just buy a tablet and have 2 devices rather than 1+extension [09:59] What would make a user who had cron running just fine for years stop working? crontab -e/l still work. Manually running the command it runs also works [09:59] upgrading the OS? [10:00] same thing happened to me [10:00] No known change to the OS over the weekend [10:00] bigcalm: I've had exactly the same - odd [10:00] This is again on a client's server. Same client we are moving from FirstServ to RackSpace === ChrisB_ is now known as Guest56878 === brobosti1on is now known as brobostigon [10:04] good morning everyone. [10:04] bigcalm: hmm just noticed my cron jobs have stopped again on lucid [10:05] Maybe crontab has stopped working all over the world! [10:06] bug 592114 [10:06] Launchpad bug 592114 in upstart (Ubuntu) "upstart doesn't start cron automatically on boot in lucid for server on amd64" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/592114 [10:14] bigcalm: i'd be interested to see if cron runs after service cron stop followed by a start [10:14] It's a RHE server [10:14] oh... [10:14] Might be something in init.d [10:14] never had probs on those [10:15] Cron is working for root. A daily backup happened yesterday [10:16] oimon, bigcalm : was a message on ubuntu server mailing list this morning [10:16] Pam modules upgraded over the weekend, cron should automatically restart after an upgrade but it doesn't or isn't set to [10:16] Restarting it has fixed 2 of the peoples problems on there [10:17] #/etc/init.d/crond status [10:17] crond dead but pid file exists [10:18] i have a different issue,. cron pretends to work after a reboot (i.e. process exists) but doesn't run my jobs until service restart [11:06] bigcalm, weirdly i just noticed that my own cron stuff has stopped running [11:11] GAH [11:11] * bigcalm shakes his fist at the SuperHub yet again [11:17] I wonder how long before Opera's extensions for speeddial get copied... [11:19] JGJones: o.o [11:21] http://www.technotraits.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/safari-4-new-tab-page.jpg [11:21] http://www.screenshots-archive.com/files/images/New_Tab_-_Google_Chrome.png [11:22] ah, the new tab page of shame [11:22] http://screenshots.oahermes.com/internet_explorer/big_19_IE9-New-Tab-Page.png [11:22] "all the stuff you waste far too much time on" [11:22] they *all* do it [11:23] $deity bless the 'edit' button. I don't like safari advertising my taste in websites ;) [11:24] shauno: how about /me likes the edit button :) [11:25] dogmatic69, they do speed dial yes...but the Opera 11.50 beta does extensions as a speed dial button - ie a speed dial button would show the current weather, the next the current twitter stream etc. [11:25] it's not just a bookmark speeddial. [11:25] JGJones: like google chrome apps? [11:26] doesn't google chrome apps just show logo of the app which you click to then load the app? [11:26] maybe [11:27] dogmatic69, an example - In Oprea I've just installed a weather extension for speed dial and set it to Leeds. The button logo shows me the current weather in Leeds [11:27] No need to click on it, the information is there. [11:29] Weather Report applet :) [11:29] plus docky, the time drop down and my iphone. dont need more :D [11:31] heh - the weather was an example. There's not that many extensions yet but as it's just a beta and it's Opera, it'll take a bit of time before we see a lot more ;-) [11:31] is opera open source yet? never quite understood why they keep it closed [11:32] gord: to spite RMS [11:32] would be nice to have it in the repo's is all :) [11:37] gord it's still a fantastic browser [11:38] I keep trying opera, and it keeps annoying me [11:38] all software annoys me, though [11:38] but I keep going back to FF just through laziness [11:39] it's already there, and has all the extensions [11:40] BigRedS, I suggest you go with OSX - it might annoy you at first, but give it time...after a while, you'll join the Cult of Job and will be unable to see anything wrong, and thus you'll be cured of the fact that software annoy you as OSX can do no wrong ;-) [11:40] Hah [11:40] every time I've tried OSX I've ended up swearing very loudly about arbitrary capitalisation [11:40] Web-Sprocket === WebSprocket_ is now known as Web-Sprocket [11:47] what's one of them then [11:56] i read that plank (the new docky) also uses unity quicklists: http://www.webupd8.org/2011/05/video-slingshot-plank-wingpanel-beatbox.html [11:56] if they get a move on i could see a few unity refugees using this [11:57] why would i want to switch from one dock to another? docks are rubbish? [11:57] unity seems fixed on the LHS and the scroll/concertina thing doesn't work IMO [11:58] docks don't work. this is news? [11:58] i'm a dock user who has tried to use unity and found it lacking [11:59] i'm sur ethere are many like me [11:59] every problem of the unity launcher that isn't a bug also affects every other dock ever made [12:00] unity fixed to LHS isn't a bug, it's a design decision [12:00] it's also not a problem [12:00] the problems are things like you can't go directly to a specific window [12:01] and you are never sure what will happen when you click on an icon [12:01] other docks don't behave like unity [12:01] will it unminimize something? will it run a new copy? i don't know! [12:01] maybe it will warp me to another desktop [12:01] there's simply no way of knowing [12:01] docky has consistent and predictable behaviour as does awn [12:02] unless it has separate icons for launchers and running programs (which means it isn't a dock) then it doesn't [12:02] um. if you have an instance running, as evidenced by the arrow to the left of the icon, it will take you to that instance, otherwise launch [12:02] is it that complicated to understand? [12:02] it has a dot under the icon in docky, and an arrow in unity [12:02] gord: yes, actually it is [12:02] i don't think it is [12:03] gord: because if i have three instances, which one do i get? [12:03] gord: if they are on different workspaces, what then? [12:03] ali1234: then you get a workspace switcher, showing those windows as focused [12:03] also just yesterday it stopped even doing that [12:03] BigRedS: no, you don't [12:03] in docky, you can right click and choose. [12:03] your just going back to your wanting to get a specific window issue [12:03] Well, I do [12:03] BigRedS: first, it pops up an instance at random [12:03] Oh, yeah [12:03] then you click again, and then you get the switcher. sometimes [12:03] I imagine it's not quite random [12:04] but, yes, if you don't like that one you can click again [12:04] ali1234: you are describing a unity deficiency rather than a dock dieficiency [12:04] ali1234: what should it do? [12:05] BigRedS: it should present a unique icon or button for every window [12:05] oh [12:05] I suppose it'd be nice if that were an option [12:05] but it seems terribly unfashionable at the moment [12:05] it should also segregate the virtual desktops so that windows from other desktops don't show on the launcher [12:05] i'v used things like that before, its just confusing [12:06] you get eight different firefox icons, no idea which one is which [12:06] nah, that's how my gnome2 is set up to work [12:06] but I don't tend to have many windows from the same app open [12:06] gord: there's a difference between you not knowing, and it being UNKNOWABLE [12:06] the latter is what unity does [12:07] ali1234: my point is that these are as-yet unhandled deficiencies in unity, rather than all docks [12:08] ali1234, bashing on unity doesn't make your proposed design work however [12:08] gord: it does work, though [12:08] the funny thing is that my proposed design worked just fine for years [12:08] only for some set of workflows, sure [12:08] but natty only works for some set of workflows too [12:08] it doesn't work for the case of having more than one window of a thing open at a time [12:09] which seems to be what its for [12:09] ali1234: how do you choose a running process when you have 50 windows in your gnome-panel [12:09] um... you mean unity doesn;t work when you have more than one window of a thing? [12:09] i mean your proposed design [12:09] well, you're completely wrong then [12:09] of course [12:10] gord: his proposed design is how I've had Gnome work for the past seven years or so [12:10] it works fine [12:10] for *some* people [12:10] i don't even see what the purpose of multiple workspaces is in unity [12:11] same as anywhere else? [12:11] BigRedS, a panel is different than a dock, a panel has extra information such as a window title, docks have icons [12:11] you can't separate tasks because every time you click on the launcher you will get zoomed to another workspace, it's incredibly annoying and distracting [12:13] SHould I use ssmtp or postfix if I only want to send log reports by email? ssmtp is small, but postfix is standard (and I know it). Any other pros/cons? [12:13] ali1234: you can separate tasks. you've just got to not use the panel... [12:14] gord: yeah, which is part of the deficiency ali1234 is talking about, surely? [12:14] there is no panel, there is only a dock, and the dock doesn't behave similarly enough to a panel for the people who are used to using panels [12:15] BigRedS, ali1234 seems to want an individual icon for each window on a dock, which is not a good fix, [12:15] its basically what window picker applet does [12:16] gord: He's implied a dock-per-workspace would work [12:16] grouping works for me so long as there is an easy way to choose the correct window each time [12:16] if you put an individual icon for each window onto a dock it's no longer a dock [12:16] which is why i say what all docks are broken by design [12:16] BigRedS, i'm not talking about workspaces atm - i don't have any opinions on those. don't use them [12:17] gord: ah, someone (I thought ali1234 ) suggested that the dock being global mostly removes the point of workspaces [12:17] I've no idea if it does or not, 'cause I don't use a dock [12:17] that too but it's a different point [12:17] Perhaps, on those grounds, I shouldn't be in this discussion :) [12:18] bigcalm, btw, turns out its a cron issue, today cron stopped working for lots of people - just need to restart cron to get it to work, someone's working on a real fix [12:19] the pam error messages? [12:24] think i'll leave my updates for a few days [12:27] an update didn't do it, happened on my rarely updated maverick box [12:44] that stupid weather forecast on my phone has stiched me up again. came to work in flimsy clothes only to be rained upon [12:45] meanwhile debris and carrier bags are blowing past my 12 floor window in high winds [12:57] oimon: You believed the weather forecast? Thats a very dangerous thing to do [12:58] yeah, i'm a mug. now getting thunder [12:59] Where are you? [12:59] best weather forecast? look out the window :) [12:59] i did at the time of getting dressed, and i agreed with the phone [13:00] and the spidey sense AKA hayfever was tingling too [13:00] MooDoo: Looking out of the window is more of a weather-now than a weatehr forecast though [13:00] DJones: pah! my plan is ruined :D [13:01] women have access to better weather forceasts [13:03] oimon, I second that...I get the weather forecast from my wife. [13:03] My wife always asks me what the weather is going to be like [13:04] DJones: maybe she's just testing you [13:04] DJones, risky...it means you get the blame ;-) [13:04] Nah, just means she can't be bother looking herself ;-) [13:05] as a pessimist, i usually plan for worst case scenario...and i'm often right :D [13:05] except today [13:06] Were the weather is concerned, I'd agree with you [13:13] Using postfix, is the name in the From: header taken from /etc/passwd or is there another way to set it? [13:14] Oops, wrong channel :) [13:20] Surely you can set that in the headers? [13:28] Stupid websites offering free music AS LONG as you install itunes & sign up for an account & give bank card details [13:29] That's not free music anymore, I reckon. [13:29] DJones: that's a bit like those dumb audiobooks that turn out to be useless audbile files [13:30] Oh, hence "stupid". :) [13:30] heh. 'audbile'. I'm going to reuse that [13:31] oimon: I've not seen those, ah well installed, card used from account being closed at the weekend, music downloaded, software uninstalled :) [13:45] yeah, audible files are enumbered with drm and only work with itunes [13:45] they don't even work on my mp3 player [13:46] since you must unlock via itunes or something...i dunno, i never got that far for obvious reasons. althoughi have 5 audible books somewhere in my possession that might as well be /dev/random [13:49] probably doesn't help you much, but wmp11 will open them too [13:52] * exobuzz is tired [13:53] sleep pattern all broke. got up at 7pm last night. [13:53] ok if you're australian i guess [13:54] hehe [13:54] im trying to resync. not sure ill make it till tonight [13:55] have a power nap half way through but be strict on timing [13:56] 15-20 mins power nap can extend wakefulness by a good few hours [13:56] that never seems to work for me :/ I'll just go to sleep much earlier and sleep for 12 hours [13:56] * dogmatic69 done the ironman sleep thing for a while, 4h up, 20min sleep [13:56] was good [13:57] read about that, but haven't had a compatible employer yet [13:57] heh [13:57] i have a door on my office [13:57] with a lock :D [13:57] I nap at work worryingly often, but not reliably enough to be able to schedule it [13:58] if i tried a powernap, id end up sleeping for 9 hours or so. when im tired i will not follow my own "rules" heh [13:58] i fell asleep while my boss was talking to me about java programming once [13:58] i got a home office, i quite often spent the entire work day in my pants [13:58] heh, bingo. I apparently have the ability to silence my phone without waking up [13:58] :) [13:58] so a 30 minute nap tends to work out to 8-12 hours, if no-one's here to kick me [13:59] my plan now is to drink a few beers and see === denny- is now known as denny [13:59] why do certain android apps require "read phone state and identity"? [14:04] oimon, lets them do things if you get a call or somethiing [14:04] ..and identity though? [14:04] wonder why they aren't separated into separate permissinos [14:08] the better question would be why arn't you able to control the permissions system rather than the permissions system controlling you :) [14:09] cyanogen fixes this in the next release, :D [14:10] Azelphur: how? [14:10] http://cumaini.com/2011/05/new-cyanogenmod-7-nightly-to-install-the-application-without-the-permissions/ [14:10] huzzah [14:10] cue lots of broken apps but i like it [14:10] :) [14:37] is there any downside to fastcgi rather than cgi? [14:37] for php [14:40] Processes run persistent [14:40] so they take up memory all the time [14:40] instead of only when called [14:45] Ah yeah, googling's suggested that, basically, if it's quiet CGI is less resource hungry, and as it gets busier it overtakes fcgi in usage [14:46] BigRedS: yes, but fastcgi makes it faster -- it can cache things like databsae connections better (or at all :)) [14:47] !grub2 [14:47] GRUB2 is the default Ubuntu boot manager since 9.10 (Karmic). Lost GRUB after installing Windows? See https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RestoreGrub - For more information and troubleshooting for GRUB2 please refer to https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Grub2 - See !grub1 for releases before Karmic (9.10) [14:47] Ah, cool. So fcgi is generally faster with a bigger memory footprint [14:47] ? [14:47] BigRedS: fcgi is like running it inside apache (mod_php), except it's its own process, which can run as different users. [14:47] BigRedS: cgi is just that it starts one copy for each request, then quits at the end of the request [14:48] Anyone got any suggestions why one of my servers can't get to security.ubuntu.com? http://paste.ubuntu.com/615350/ [14:49] it can [14:49] the specific packages have been removed by the look of it [14:49] !pam [14:49] bah [14:49] Ahh [14:50] there was a cock up [14:50] Yet an update isn't clearing them from the list [14:50] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IncidentReports/2011-05-31-pam-security-update-breaks-cron [14:50] TY Laney [14:50] * popey blames Ng [14:51] don't know if the publisher can go back in time like that (i.e. remove the 404s) [14:51] who uses cron anyway [14:51] MartijnVdS: ah, cool. cheers! [14:52] popey: it is literally all my fault [14:52] MartijnVdS: Yeah - nothing much relies on it does it... ;-) [14:52] #blamecmsj [14:52] TheOpenSourcerer: exactly! [14:56] using maple to calculate factorial of 12345678 ..would you expect that a 64 bit PC running 64bit application calculates the solution 2x as fast as 32bit app? [14:56] no [14:57] not even for pure computation tasks? [14:57] oimon: 64 bit CPUs are generally faster at everything, not just computation [14:57] oimon: so you can't directly compare [14:57] also, instructions-per-clock [14:58] also, optimalisation for the specific cpu (hand-coded assembly?) [14:58] ok what if i run 32bit app and 64bit app on same pc? [14:58] running 64 bit OS [14:58] there's too many variables for it to be just 2x [14:59] oimon: 64 bits also take longer to fetch from memory than 32 [14:59] I'm bored enough to try it, outta nosiness :) [14:59] oimon: so there might be a problem as well :) [15:02] on 64bit OS, running 64bit app, the calculation take 66 seconds, running 32 bit app on same machine takes 78 secs [15:02] oimon: sounds probable [15:02] oimon: also.. no other variables? (other apps in use, et.c) [15:03] not really, although maple uses java but has 64/32 bit versions [15:03] hahahaha [15:03] added variables [15:03] "java" [15:03] java = lots o'added variables [15:03] maple bundles it with the app though [15:03] oimon: it's still a layer that produces overhead [15:03] i was expecting better results for pure mathematical computation [15:04] oimon: try writing some assembly, and run it on bare metal :) [15:04] Text from wife - your laptop have update, should I OK it? [15:04] Me - yup go ahead [15:04] Now I'm home and I see it's actually an distribution upgrade....sigh... [15:04] oimon: it'll come down to how the implementation of "big integer" is done and if 64bit native words helps reduce the amount of computation needed. From your results there it looks like "some but not much" [15:05] JGJones: unlucky [15:05] JGJones: this is for you : http://imgur.com/QbZ2v [15:05] * dogmatic69 pushed it by accident, hit cancel fast enough though [15:05] nah, I like Unity, I just didn't want my primary laptop to be using it just yet :) [15:05] lol [15:06] oimon, heh...very true that [15:06] Great, my work inet connection gone from a bad 2mb service to a 90k service now.. can't do anything [15:07] Looks like no remote working for me today :) [15:07] freenx :D [15:07] * JGJones waits for someone to mutter "all I had was a 28.8 baud modem and this was all fields now get off my lawn" [15:08] heh [15:08] I started on 56k from Blueyonder [15:08] i didn't even *have* a modem! if i wanted to transfer data i would have to put it on a tape. but i didn't because i didn't even have a second machine! [15:08] Used to play day of defeat, used to have the best ping in the server! [15:09] hm. I'm struggling to do this with basic C. my unsigned long long int apparently isn't big enough [15:10] Ak... got a kernel panic while laptop doing the distribution upgrade [15:10] shauno: yeah, I wondered how big the result would actually be. Matlab very quickly said "inf" [15:12] I just get segfault, stunningly quick [15:13] How do you get overflow to cause a segfault? [15:14] I have no idea :) [15:14] (I wasn't kidding when I said basic) [15:14] small calculations in maple of around 1sec are often are twice as quick with 64bit [15:14] so i'm guessing the java memory management is involved on bigger stuff [15:15] actually, mine seems to be going wrong pretty quickly. I get the right answer for 5, for 10, but for 100 I get zero [15:15] oimon: if the numbers fit in 64bits but not 32bits then you can get the 2x speedup as you only need to do half the computations (actually less than since you don't need to do the stuff to handle carrys between the two 32bit words). [15:16] ormiret: i naively thought that this would scale up a bit better [15:16] for pure computation [15:18] oimon: it can get really complicated for which is faster - lots of computation with small numbers you're better off with 32bit so the memory footprint for your data is less and it's more likely to get to stay in cache. [15:19] it seems factorials blow past the 64bit boundary quick enough that they're a bad use-case [15:20] it leaves pure arithmatic and heads into juggling real quickly, which is where all the time is spent [15:20] \o/ bit juggling [15:21] i'm open to other suggestions [15:21] finding factors of a large number? [15:21] oimon: That's a Hard problem [15:21] oimon: it's the basis for modern crypto :) [15:21] I can see the theory that for 3264bit, that's not the bottleneck anymore [15:23] oimon: what kind of problem are you looking for? [15:23] something computationally taxing that doesn't involve producing large numbers, for a simple 64/32 bit maple benchmark [15:23] something that should take a few mins to solve [15:24] if you're not trying to produce large numbers, factorials are right up the wrong tree [15:24] 100! is 93,326,215,443,944,102,188,325,606,108,575,267,240,944,254,854,960,571,509,166,910,400,407,995,064,242,937,148,632,694,030,450,512,898,042,989,296,944,474,898,258,737,204,311,236,641,477,561,877,016,501,813,248 [15:24] which is why 12345678! is crazy :) [15:25] oimon: you could try a prime-finding algorithm.. but that might get big quick [15:25] i was trying both :) [15:25] oimon: or digits of pi [15:25] trig functions? [15:26] i thought about pi but it produced results too quick [15:26] BigRedS: sin 666? [15:26] ISTR some/one of them just involves an arbitrarily long series of divisions [15:26] you solved pi? too quick? [15:26] oimon: have it calculate the 600 millionth digit [15:26] shauno: lol [15:26] shauno: it's linux, it does infinite loops in 10s [15:26] oh 5 [15:27] that's where I'm going wrong then .. trying to compile on ma puny mac :) [15:28] where infinite loops are 8 timezones away [15:29] Hmm ok dist upgrade now completed...and I appear to be missing an "application lens" from the unity dock.... [15:29] so....how does one goes about adding icons to the dock? [15:30] 600millionth digit of pi is a 0 [15:30] :D [15:30] that seems a bit of a letdown for some reason [15:32] oimon: What is the 600 Million and first digit? [15:32] exercise for the reader [15:33] * DJones thinks of a random number & wonders if somebody else will cheque it [15:33] i'm actually running these tests on another user's machine :D [15:33] mine isn't 64 bit [15:33] !info pi [15:33] pi (source: cln): Compute Archimedes' constant Pi to arbitrary precision. In component universe, is optional. Version 1.3.1-2 (natty), package size 10 kB, installed size 64 kB [15:34] he must wonder why his fans are blowing a gale [15:34] oimon: Damm, I thought you were working it out by hand then [15:36] ...what do you call the icons on the dock in Unity? [15:36] specifically those that does an action such as show all applications? [15:36] false idols [15:37] I don't have that and I haven't a clue how to google on how to put it back on. [15:37] JGJones_: This might help http://askubuntu.com/questions/10228/whats-the-right-terminology-for-unitys-ui-elements [15:37] I'm guessing it comes under "Launcher items" [15:38] no davmor2 :s [15:39] JGJones_, lenses [15:40] i mean technically they are launchers that launch lenses, but whatever [15:40] decided not to have cucumber in my roll today [15:47] interestingly, using a more reliable method to calculate pi to 500000 DP fails on 32bit due to mem issues, but 64 bit comes up with the goods [15:48] probably that poxy java again [15:50] \o/ poxy java [15:50] what kind of memory issues? [15:56] ormiret: closed the window now, but it was a mem alloc error..poss due to JAVAHEAP settings when running maple [15:56] on a 12 gig RAM machine, so raw resources wasn't the error [15:58] oimon: default for the JVM heap size limit is often tiny (I think 128MiB). [15:58] 512MB in maple [15:58] still a tad low [15:59] considering we give 4gb machines running linux..quite hard to pine and latex to use all that RAM :D [16:03] oimon: I'm oddly tempted to go and see if I can make a latex document that'll need more the 4GB to process now. [16:08] oimon..finding ways for others to procrastinate since 19xx [16:08] :D [16:11] i've discovered why staff were complaining that they hadn't received certain emails...in pine it's such effort to open a mail, you need a really good title. except the building manager has an important email about impending 1 day notice of full electrical shutdown of the building called "testing of electrical outlets in rooms" ..no wonder they claim not to see those emails since they don't have preview for their mail [16:14] the unity bar seems stuck in the open? [16:14] won't autohide like ususal for some reason, grrr. [16:16] spotify seems to be a good way to get me to buy albums. [16:16] anything i play regularly on there ends up getting purchased [16:36] bigcalm: your message on facebook... [16:36] is it still valid? [16:36] bug 790538 [16:36] Launchpad bug 790538 in pam (Ubuntu) "pam update causes cron to stop working with "Module is unknown" error" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/790538 [16:39] !pamerr [16:39] If you're receiving 404 errors while updating pam today, the developers have identified a package regression and have pulled the update. For details see https://launchpad.net/bugs/790538 [16:46] EOF upgrade from 9.04 to 9.10 (Jaunty to Karmic) have error message Cannot upgrade [16:47] An upgrade from 'jaunty' to 'lucid' is not supported with this tool. [16:50] cocoa117: I think Karmic has reached its end of life as of 30th April so the repo's for that have probably been removed [16:50]