[00:00] k, that's good to hear [00:00] i added some highlight, so in fact the text of active windows in the panel brightens when you hover it [00:01] http://imagebin.org/155988 [00:01] you changed something [00:02] drc: wow, your window-borders are quite something ;) [00:02] Appearence = greybird, WM - BAsix [00:02] charlie-tca: yes, the selection and prelight of window-buttons is darker now, also the panel text is a tad darker [00:02] I dislike rounded windows, always have :) [00:03] We can work with it [00:03] The selection and the active window use the same shade? [00:03] ochosi: I actually like the "hover" change [00:03] The panel text is good now [00:04] charlie-tca: no, active window and selection are not the same shade, but the difference is small, hard to see on bad screens. shall i make it more visible? [00:04] you should have a different color for select and active [00:05] yes, they need to be different. If I select the workspace next to the active workspace, I can't tell which one is selected [00:05] you know what I mean. title/workspace, it just blends together [00:06] but it will work [00:06] mhm, yeah, i'll make it more contrasty [00:06] one sec [00:09] ochosi: When I change WM bow I get http://imagebin.org/155990 Never did before. [00:09] hmm, i'm wondering whether to make the active or the prelight darker [00:09] Is the no separation for titles intended? http://imagebin.org/155991 [00:09] drc: what's the black box? [00:10] charlie-tca: what separation do you mean exactly? [00:10] Thats the change :) Putting back original panel.rc to check [00:10] There is no separation between titles now, they blend into each other [00:11] in that last screenshot. I thought they were separated before, but maybe not [00:11] charlie-tca: hm, i didn't do anything about that [00:12] charlie-tca: that was probably because "Global Time" has a shorter title, therefore more "padding" to the next item [00:12] okay, then it is just the contrast from active to selected that has issues [00:12] k, try this: http://pastebin.com/tAWkvD8w [00:13] (it's a new approach to the active/prelight problem) [00:15] I like that [00:16] good :) [00:16] how about the timer-bar? [00:16] did you drive drc nuts now [00:16] visible enough? [00:17] timer bar is hard to see [00:17] * ochosi hopes not [00:17] k, i'll have a look at the timer bar now [00:17] I would like the timer to work right again, but I think those days are gone [00:17] ochosi: I like the latest...but I'm still having problems when I change WM's.... [00:17] charlie-tca: what's not working about the timer? [00:18] drc: don't think that's related to the theme-change at all [00:18] OK, let me try something [00:19] It has text next to the bar, that used to show up [00:19] nop [00:20] It has text field to the right of the black bar. You used to click the bar itself to get the timer properties. Now you click the empty panel space to the right of the bar to get properties for the timer [00:20] That is also the click spot to run the timer, instead of the bar [00:20] also, the bar is supposed to show the time used up, it just stays black all the time now [00:21] hm, sounds like a borked and unmaintained plugin to me [00:21] yeah, I know [00:21] it's not installed by default, right? [00:21] It went whacky for 4.8, and it just stays that way now. But at least it is a timer, and it does tell when the time expired. [00:22] You can see the time used up too when you hover over it [00:22] no, not default [00:22] Can't install something so screwed up, can we? [00:22] I can't be the only user out there, though [00:22] doesn't sound like a good idea, no :) [00:23] It's like the world clock. I heard a user go through great pains to get gnome clock because it doesn't use a window. It just sits on the desktop. [00:24] I prefer the window of orage, I think. At least I can find it [00:24] mhm [00:28] You want me to try this for a day or so and see what I think now? [00:28] yeah, i think that'd be a good thing [00:29] I can do that. It drives me nuts pretty fast when I don't like the colors [00:29] in fact the progressbars also darkened for me with the other panel color-changes [00:29] so the contrast should be about the same [00:29] as before [00:29] what progressbars? [00:29] i use the network-monitor [00:29] it also uses progressbars [00:29] like the timer [00:30] oh, mine don't like they changed, but maybe? [00:31] Will the murrine going away thing hurt us? [00:31] the progressbar-background is the same on your last screenshot as the active window, which is "charlie - File Man.." http://imagebin.org/155991 [00:31] murrine going away? [00:31] I think they are trying to get rid of it now, something about gtk3 and gnome3? [00:31] oh dear, that would hurt us badly [00:31] or am I confused again? [00:31] i guess they'll maybe stall development of the engine [00:32] since it's done by an ubuntu employee [00:32] but they can't quickly throw it out of the window [00:32] or maybe it won't be there by default? [00:32] because everything that uses gtk2 will need murrine [00:32] it's ubuntu's standard engine [00:32] and we can always ship it by default in xubuntu [00:32] yeah, that's the one I heard won't be in Oneiric [00:33] so oneiric will be gtk3-only in ubuntu? [00:33] I don't know the answer to that [00:33] We will be gtk2 only, though [00:33] ouch, what a mess this one is going to be, huh? [00:33] yeah... [00:34] that's why i said, it'd be good to have basic gtk3 support in greybird [00:34] i hope i have the time for that [00:34] We even had to upgrade to at-spi2 for accessibility this time [00:34] heh, that's why we keep at it! [00:35] mr_pouit said we are staying away from gtk3 as much as as possible this cycle. [00:35] sure, but users can always install gtk3 apps later and then it'll look like using a programme via wine [00:36] Lol [00:36] going to be a fun time [00:36] charlie-tca: well, the shared infrastructure will probably be GTK3, the Xfce stuff will probably be GTK2 [00:36] no probably, has to be gtk2 [00:36] Xfce doesn't support gtk3 at all yet [00:36] micahg: you think they'll already port stuff like software-center to gtk3? [00:36] ochosi: yes [00:36] uargh [00:37] then we *need* greybird to support gtk3 [00:37] ochosi: I can check tomorow [00:37] micahg: is there a good/easy way to use/test gtk3 in natty? [00:37] something like the widget-factory for gtk3 would be good [00:37] ochosi: sure, there's gtk3 in natty [00:37] any app you'd recommend for testing purposes? [00:38] * micahg checks what's there [00:38] thx [00:39] Okay, got to go rest my arm and eyes. [00:39] ochosi: there is a gtk-3-examples package [00:39] sure, thanks for testing :) [00:39] will test this new theme and let you know what happens [00:39] no problem [00:39] yep [00:40] micahg: wondering what's up with the "-" between gtk and 3 :) [00:40] ochosi: there's also the gnome3 PPA [00:40] yeah, but i heard that's a can of worms [00:41] i'm not looking for total breakage, just a small environment to test theming ;) [00:41] ochosi: it is, I'd suggest testing GTK3 in oneiric in a VM [00:41] ochosi: what's the latest pastebin for panel.rc (i.e., since I dropped out)? [00:41] drc: http://pastebin.com/tAWkvD8w [00:41] ochosi: or you can backport a GTK3 app to natty if it doesn't have a lot of build-deps [00:41] micahg: yeah, i'll do that as soon as i have a basic gtk3 style ready [00:59] ochosi: I like the latest panel.rc :) [00:59] thanks [00:59] keep repeating that and hopefully it'll be default in oneiric ;) [01:02] Now if you can only get rid of the #FFFFFF in gtkrc's base_color: to make it something less glaring :) [01:03] that was in fact requested by charlie-tca if i remember correctly [01:03] it wasn't pure white before [01:03] i think it was something like f1f1f1 [01:03] f5 [01:04] right, it might've been f5f5f5 [01:04] Don't remember...I've been in and out so much (trying to figure out where that black box was coming from (it's related to xfce4-panel --replace somehow) I proably have missed most of the conversation. [01:05] we can test other subtle color changes during this cycle imo [01:05] ochosi: selected_fg_color:#f5f5f maybe...I'm pretty sure base_color was #FFFFFF (but I won't bet the farm on that) [01:05] ochosi: I'm usually here and more than will to test [01:06] darn it, I didn't save the original gtkrc...must remember to do that next time :( [01:07] you can always pull it from git [01:07] never used git, got a URL that will give me the basics? [01:08] you don't have to use it if you don't want to, you can also simply download the files here: https://github.com/shimmerproject/Greybird/tree/master/gtk-2.0 [01:09] base_color:#FFFFFF" :) [01:09] nah nah nah nah [01:10] so it ain't my fault? [01:10] you're only referring to the panel? [01:10] i was actually talking about something else i think, i mixed it up [01:10] ochosi: Not the panel, the base color of the windows [01:11] so it is my fault again? [01:11] i just realized i was talking about the general text color, cause that wasn't black as in #000 in greybird before, but something like a very dark grey [01:11] charlie-tca: nothing is your fault :) [01:11] charlie-tca: everything is your fault...you're the boss :) [01:12] You can delegate authority but never responsibility. First rule an officer learns :) [01:13] well, that certainly cleared that up! [01:13] s/officer/leader/ [01:14] charlie-tca: what do you think of drc's suggestion to tune down the base-color of the theme a bit? [01:14] Anyway, the request to lessen the glare on base_color is still there. My poor old eyes. [01:14] in the panel or the windows? [01:14] windows [01:15] imo, the panel is fine now [01:15] ochosi: the glare gets worse with a darker panel [01:15] it seems to make the white window background brighter [01:15] brighter than the current FFF? ;) [01:16] yes [01:16] it brightens when the panels darken, optical illusion [01:16] makes it seem brighter [01:17] I actually replace it with #EBEFF3, which it the color of the left panel in thunar (it was easy to grab) [01:17] Have I mentioned lately, I'm lazy ? [01:17] how do you do that? [01:18] in /usr/share/themes/greybird/gtkrc, iirc [01:18] I am not lazy, just a simple user... ;-) [01:18] would you want to test a different base color? [01:19] If I can figure it out, I will yellow it [01:19] hehe [01:19] ochosi: I'll test anything you want (I'll try to remember to make a copy of the original file this time) [01:19] charlie-tca: just change the base_color value in line 6 to the yellow you want [01:20] charlie-tca: It's base_color:#FFFFFF, towords the top of the file [01:20] drc: k, well since you know how to adjust the gtkrc file, i'll just tell you the values to test, cause i'm lazy too ;) [01:20] :) [01:21] charlie-tca: /usr/share/themes/greybird/gtk-2.0/gtkrc [01:22] drc: hm, when changing the base-color the scrollbars won't blend in anymore... at least not without a fair amount of work [01:22] true [01:22] I'm still trying to figure that one out, but it's eluded me so far [01:23] trying to figure what out? [01:23] and how do I make that change take effect now? [01:23] charlie-tca: change themes back and forth [01:23] okay [01:23] but at least I don't have the glare in the main part of the windows. For a single user it's no problem, but as a default, it's a problem. [01:23] nm, it took by itself [01:24] drc: my screen automatically dims itself depending on room-brightness [01:24] ochosi: lucky you [01:24] been trying to do that for a very long time [01:24] ochosi: it worked [01:24] good [01:24] now it doesn't glare at me [01:25] charlie-tca: what vale did you set? [01:25] drc: i can give you what i have on the scrollbar-integration code, but i have to say i hit a dead end there. it's not perfect [01:25] FFFFE8 [01:25] might be too yellow, though [01:28] FFFFF4 is better [01:31] ochosi: If you [01:32] If you hit a dead end, I'm sure I would have no clue whatsoever, I'm just a untalented but stubborn user. [01:34] here's my dead end: http://imagebin.org/156003 [01:34] the scrollbar on the left integrates color-wise with thunar's sidebar [01:34] but the trough of the scrollbar has a tiny outline that i can't seem to get rid of [01:37] Still, it's better than the terminal scroll bar :) [01:38] why? the terminal scrollbar is totally integrated and intentional [01:38] (at least with a terminal with 000 bg-color) [01:39] Well, can you guess what I did? :) [01:39] black...yuk! [01:39] heh [01:39] furthermore it's easy to get rid of it, just comment the line from gtkrc [01:41] in fact there was a plan to do something like new default terminal-colors [01:41] but as often there wasn't enough time/energy [01:44] well, well, well. Didn't see that line way down at the bottom. Thanks. [01:44] np [01:46] Time to document in my notebook all these changes for the next time I have to re-install. [01:47] better help us/me to fix them for the next release [01:48] It's almost a certainty that I will have to reinstall before Oct :( [01:49] ochosi: Like I said, I'm here, I'm available (to the best of my limited abilities) [01:49] still, if we fix stuff in greybird until then you can simply pull it from git [01:49] Keeping a notebook is an old old habit. [01:50] it's not bad, i'm just trying to motivate you to contribute ;) [01:59] charlie-tca: I just thought of something...Soup* (can't remember his full nick) was one of the people that brought up moving the community meeting to another day. I think it was because he used his university connection. I'm not sure that he'll be at the university on a Sunday. [02:31] ochosi: Take a look at trough_shades in gtkrc. Try setting them to 1.0 and 1.0, for example. [02:33] Oh, I'm talking about the window scrollbars [02:35] Nevdermind...It looks real good with my darker colors, but not so much with the default colors [02:35] what looks good? [02:36] lert me play some more [02:36] Thought I had something.... but I'm not sure [02:36] screenshot? [02:37] drc: this is the code for the thunar-sidebar: http://pastebin.com/X0KUJD52 [02:38] see all the commented lines, these equal my failed approaches [02:41] http://imagebin.org/156011 [02:42] what exactly do you want to do? [02:42] drc: you are correct. We will have to check with him to find out [02:43] I'm tryinig to tie the scrollbar trough into the color scheme of the window border, so that whatever color you end up making the window irself, it won't matter [02:43] oh, you mean like in bluebird? [02:43] dunno, let me look at bluebird:) [02:44] yeah, more or less [02:44] guess then it's best for you to check out the scrollbar-code of bluebird [02:44] So I've been sitting here trying all sorts of things that you already know...sheesh :) [02:44] That would work too [02:45] especially important for your idea is the "within-bevel" option (look for it in bluebird) [02:45] drc: and we really appreciate your attempts to help, too [02:46] okay this yellow is not working. When the lines alternate colors, I get bright yellow [02:47] theming isn't easy, theme/system-wide color changes have quite many effects [02:48] now you tell me [02:48] ;) [02:48] I knew it wasn't easy, but did not realize the effects [02:49] now you probably understand how painful it is when you have a good idea, then implement it and suddenly everyone starts shouting: "my favorite app doesn't look like i prefer it anymore" [02:55] I knew that one already too. That's why I try not to do that too much. [02:56] Okay, I will try F4FFFF for a bit now [02:57] ochosi: What was the reasoning behind the change from Bluebirds trough coloring (iirc, Greybird was based on Bluebird?)to what ended up in Greybird (If you don't mind my asking)? [02:57] drc: no, you can ask as much and whatever you want [02:58] i just felt that having the scrollbar inside the scrolled area is more natural [02:59] You're proably right, I never thought about it until I started playing around with colors and saw the result :) [03:01] They are much less obtrusive...sort of like Unity's scrollbars outside the window, You don't think aboiut them until you need them. [03:02] much of it is a question of experience and well, personal taste [03:02] yup [03:07] While we're talking about greybird, the *one* thing I really don't like about it (even above rounded window tops) is I cannot tell at a glance which is the active window, the difference between active and inactive is just too subtle. There I said it :) [03:09] I have that problem on many, many themes. Like on Ubuntu Studio (which is where I'm hailing from, btw.) :) [03:09] I said that a long time back [03:09] Other than all the things we've talked about tonight, it's perfect. [03:09] Hoping to see a change this time around. [03:10] oh, you mean the window title bar? [03:10] charlie-tca: yes, was I not specific enough? [03:11] just ask ochosi what the possiblity of changing the color of the inactive title bar is [03:11] Nah, I've bugged him enough for one night, maybe tomorrow. [03:12] hm, yeah, i wouldn't mind changing that a bit [03:12] in fact i already did in the compact xfwm4 theme i recently added to greybird's repo [03:12] it's still pretty subtle though [03:12] ochosi: Maybe just a little darker on the active title bar text? [03:12] and what i really want to revise is the inactive text [03:13] hmm, the problem with doing that is that the window-controls should be similar color-wise [03:13] It doesn't need to be a different color (like Basix's is), just to able to tell at a galnce [03:14] hm, tbh i'm a bit too tired tonight to really try something with that now, bug me again some other day and we can do some experiments :) [03:17] well, now that I made my desktop plain ugly... ;-) [03:17] * drc writes that down in his notebook :) [03:18] charlie-tca: hehe, well i guess you still remember the few steps to change it back [03:18] yeah, delete the theme and update [03:18] charlie-tca: and most importantly: don't blame the fact that your desktop is ugly on the darker panel experiment ;) [03:18] yeah: sudo cp gtkrc.ORIGINAL gtkrc :) [03:19] well, I guess it isn't really caused by that [03:19] Like I didn't [03:19] oh, I just gksu thunar and do everything at one time [03:19] any editor opened with thunar as root is automatically granted root [03:19] well be sure not to remove the panel-changes [03:20] Nah, I will leave it this way for a day or two. It isn't yellow, though. [03:20] ochosi: Again, well done on the panel. [03:20] It isn't orange any more, either, though [03:21] k, everyone, was fun testing stuff with you, now i really gotta hit the sack [03:21] Thanks, ochosi [03:21] see you around! [03:21] good night [03:22] g'night [03:24] * drc hates thinking he's found something really neat, only to find out everyone *but* him has already figured it out (and usually discarded it as impracticle) [03:25] It helps get everyone thinking, though [03:25] * charlie-tca is just hoi [03:25] * charlie-tca is hoping for installable alternate images tomorrow [03:29] It would be a change of pace. [03:30] It would get my mind of this new thechnique I've discover...bubble sorts! [03:42] Does gedit have a diff plugin? [03:44] I don't know, I switched to geany. It has fewer dependencies on gnome [03:49] and a lot more options [04:00] No diff plugin, and looks like no one's even going to write such, but rather there's a notion of integrating meld with gedit. [04:00] Which kinda makes sense, it's a nifty tool. [13:51] no changes in Xubuntu images today [13:51] charlie-tca: i thought about this a bit more now and i think i'll spend more time getting a basic gtk3 theme than doing fancy stuff with greybird in gtk2 [13:52] since we'll surely have some applications installed by default that use gtk3 i think it's gonna be important [13:52] okay [13:52] i mean we can discuss this more, but this seems to make most sense to me [13:53] and i have to find someone who has already worked with gtk3, i'm afraid it's like starting from scratch with something completely new :( [13:53] And I woke up at 05:00 thinking: "ochosi didn't colorize the scrollbar trough, he bleached it." And couldn't get back to sleep. Thanks ochosi :) [13:54] drc: hehe, yeah, in fact that's what i did [14:04] ochosi: ỳes, gtk3 is coming. Of course, Xfce won't use it for a while yet. Also, we do want to push any gtk3 backwards to natty. [14:04] no, of course not [14:05] but since micahg mentioned that ubuntu's stuff like software-center (which we're using atm) will most likely use gtk3 it'll be a mess [14:20] Good morning [14:22] Bah...Humbug...no images at all :( [14:22] Might as well go back to bed. [15:17] Introducing Newbird (Gone away is the bluebird, here to stay is the newbird) http://imagebin.org/156091 [15:18] Now ochosi can go on to gtk3, I have my gtk2 theme :) [15:34] ochosi: might help with transitioning to gtk3 - https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2011-May/033299.html [16:57] charlie-tca: thanks, will have a look at that as soon as i start with gtk3 [16:57] it is a listing of progress integrating into Oneiric, no gtk3 themes at this time [16:59] i talked to the guys in #murrine, there is an unfinished port of the current ubuntu theme in gtk3 already [16:59] but it's still wip [16:59] i hope they'll give me some support as soon as i start [17:25] Soupermanito: can you make a meeting at 22:00 UTC on Sundays? [17:25] 22UTC gotta figure out what time is that brb [17:27] 19hs :D [17:27] yes yes i can [17:27] http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meetingtime.html?day=5&month=6&year=2011&p1=0&p2=51&p3=-1&p4=-1 [17:29] say charlie-tca should i zsync the xubuntu 11.04 alternate that i have now, or should i download a new image to do the proper testing whenever it is? [17:29] hm, we have that already here - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings [17:29] no, don't sync yet. We do not have good images yet [17:30] The images are not usable at all yet [17:30] ok, just asking [17:30] but using the 11.04 iso to do the zsync is a good idea? or should i download a complete new image? [17:31] We will have meetings alternating on Monday and Sunday, Monday at 19:00 and Sunday at 22:00, so maybe everyone that wants to can make one or two meetings a month, at least. [17:31] also i will have to download the x64 images [17:31] yes, zsync to 11.04 is good. It is still faster than a full download [17:31] :) sundays are better for me [17:31] thank you charlie-tca :D [17:31] yup, but I don't want to give up every Sunday [17:32] no, i understand [17:37] i was wondering when the daily-live .isos for xubuntu 11.10 would be out [17:39] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OneiricReleaseSchedule [17:40] when they are published. It could be a while yet [17:40] We may not have daily-live images until alpha2 [17:43] mr_pouit: charlie-tca I think it's gdm pulling in the GNOME stuff (gnome-session-bin I think now pulls in the unity stack( [17:43] great :-( [17:43] so, replacing gdm might be the easiest way to make it work? [17:49] micahg: rdepends shows ubuntu-desktop, which will pull in everything Ubuntu installs [17:51] never mind. that is wrong [17:52] micahg: here's a hint: charlie-tca: http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/germinate-output/xubuntu.oneiric/rdepends/ALL/notification-daemon is probably more useful [17:53] charlie-tca: yeah, just got there [17:54] Do we have to keep xfce4-notifyd for alpha1? [17:54] do you want notifications working? [17:55] XD [17:55] I suppose it would be nice, but it would be better just to an image [18:02] charlie-tca: sorry, my germinate foo isn't that good [18:03] That's okay, mine is pretty bad. [18:04] the thing is xfce4-notifyd provides that package [18:04] and conflicts properly... [18:05] if it is a choice between alpha1 without notifications and no alpha1, take the alpha1 [18:06] We have a few hours yet, but we need this to happen by about 13:00 UTC Wednesday to give time for testing [18:33] charlie-tca: cjwatson figured it out and is fixing [18:44] * micahg thinks his unity issues is due to all the apps installed on his xubuntu machine :) [19:45] charlie-tca: BTW, xubuntu natty on my armel machine is beautiful :) [20:29] Great! We are very thankful to cjwatson around! [20:29] I didn't think we had an armel build yet? [20:29] charlie-tca: I just installed xubuntu-desktop :) [20:30] Why do we an armel build then? [20:30] charlie-tca: so people can do a clean install? [20:31] oh, yeah [20:39] micahg: thank you very much for trying to fix the issues today! [20:40] charlie-tca: heh, don't know if I actually did anything [20:43] you did. I have noticed that if we try to fix things, we get help. If we ignore it, we get no help. === Soupermanito is now known as Souperior [20:54] well, I now know better how to track these things down === Souperior is now known as Souperman === Souperman is now known as Soupermanito [20:57] Good, because I still seem lost [21:00] XD [21:00] lol charlie-tca [21:00] charlie-tca: so what do you think about the panel? any feelings yet or shall i come back tomorrow? :) [21:02] I would still like a touch more difference between the active and selected buttons, but it works very good now that I blued the white on screen [21:03] I guess I preferr blue over bright yellow [21:03] I think we go for it [21:04] * Soupermanito seconds because he likes blue bottons [21:04] I don't know how to turn buttons blue [21:04] XD [21:05] me neither [21:05] i haven't even figured out why the folders on my ~/home doesnt change whit the theme [21:06] charlie-tca: so i'll push the panel changes now and we continue to tweak it until final release, ok with you? [21:06] it might be that thunar doesnt have different icons for xdg folders, even when i thing it should [21:07] Soupermanito: thunar respects xdg-user-dirs and at least xubuntu's default icon theme has special icons for them [21:07] :( well all mine look the same [21:07] http://imagebin.org/156149 [21:08] Soupermanito: you can edit/change that in ~/.config/user-dirs.dirs [21:09] http://imagebin.org/156150 [21:09] ochosi: I would hope you are way better at blue tinting than me! [21:09] charlie-tca: hehe, i would hope so too ;) [21:09] no, if you need help with the blue i can help [21:09]