[01:35] <Azelphur> sigh, I broke tornado :(
[01:56] <Pendulum> Azelphur: that sounds a lot odder with the day I've had
[01:56] <Azelphur> haha
[01:57] <Pendulum> AlanBell: I drove past a tornado. I don't live in an area that typically has them
[01:57] <Pendulum> bah
[01:57] <Pendulum> AlanBell: sorry
[01:58] <Pendulum> Azelphur: ^^
[02:01] <Azelphur> Pendulum: tornado is a multithreaded web server :p
[02:01] <Azelphur> only thing is, I've magically made it be not multithreaded, at all.
[02:01] <Azelphur> so it's kinda useless \o/
[02:02] <Pendulum> Azelphur: I know what it is, just was odd because of the alternate meaning and the fact that I happened to have an experience with the weather-related meaning today
[02:02] <Azelphur> hehe :
[02:02] <Azelphur> :)
[06:42] <Myrtti> ho-hum
[08:09] <DJones> Morning
[08:56] <livingdaylight> anyone use Opera? Diigo extension appears not to be working??
[08:58] <MartijnVdS> Time to switch to a real browser :P
[09:00] <livingdaylight> MartijnVdS: grrr...
[09:00] <livingdaylight> ^^
[09:00] <MartijnVdS> What's "Diigo" supposed to do?
[09:01] <livingdaylight> Opera is a nice browser and do a lot of things really nicely - lots of integration too. I'm slowly getting tired of a "everything is google" world
[09:01] <livingdaylight> Diigo is a bookmarking/managing/sharing thingy-bob
[09:02] <MartijnVdS> There's the "Everything is Microsoft" alternative world :)
[09:02] <livingdaylight> yea, that one sux even moar, :p
[09:02] <MartijnVdS> but uhm.. so it's de.lico.us-ish?
[09:02] <livingdaylight> yes
[09:03] <MartijnVdS> did you do anything that could have broken it?
[09:03] <MartijnVdS> (update it? or opera?)
[09:03] <livingdaylight> maybe I need to restart Opera. no, all i did was install the extension
[09:03] <MartijnVdS> Restarting sounds like a good idea, could you try that?
[09:04] <MartijnVdS> (I know a very Windows solution... :))
[09:04] <livingdaylight> actually, works now...
[09:05] <livingdaylight> for some reason diigo doesn't work on all webpages
[09:05] <MartijnVdS> Maybe some websites have "Bookmarking prohibited" in their EULAs :)
[09:05] <livingdaylight> so, that's all it was, lol
[09:05] <livingdaylight> really? why would someone not want their website to be bookmarked?
[09:06] <MartijnVdS> Nah
[09:06] <MartijnVdS> it could still be a broken website though
[09:06] <MartijnVdS> (you know those sites that never change the URL bar, and use frames etc., they're Hard to bookmark properly)
[09:06] <livingdaylight> right, un-intentionally you mean
[09:06] <livingdaylight> ok
[09:06] <MartijnVdS> yes
[09:07] <bigcalm> Good morning peeps :)
[09:08] <livingdaylight> Opera now offers extensions or addons which was a feature missing a couple years back compared to FF. What FF and other browsers now lack in comparison and which is one feature I like with Chrome is the url bar is also search bar and hints before one's hardly begun typing in the word.
[09:09] <diplo> Morning all
[09:09] <livingdaylight> gm comrades bigcalm | diplo
[09:17] <kazade> morning
[09:17] <kazade> I've just realized I've done something stupid with Ubuntu One :/
[09:18] <kazade> I had ~30G of pictures in there, and when I configured my laptop the other day I decided I didn't need my pictures on it so I unticked "Synchronize this folder"
[09:18] <kazade> that doesn't do what I thought it did!
[09:20] <kvarley> How do I remove gnome? I did a partial upgrade through the update-manager and it's installed gnome entries to the login screen. It's changed the login manager and now Ubuntu doesn't work, it loads but nothing functions and the graphics are all glitchy.
[09:24] <BigRedS> kvarley: what do you want to have instead?
[09:31] <MartijnVdS> kvarley: open up a terminal, install ubuntu-desktop using apt-get install ubuntu-desktop
[09:31] <MartijnVdS> kvarley: partial upgrades can be scary :)
[09:32] <MartijnVdS> maybe apt-get dist-upgrade (check what it'll do before doing it!)
[09:38] <BigRedS> Hm. Is there a way to get the login window to not obscure my password when I enter it?
[09:39] <MartijnVdS> BigRedS: you want to show your password to shoulder-surfers?
[09:39] <MartijnVdS> I don't think that'll be easy
[09:40] <BigRedS> MartijnVdS: no
[09:40] <BigRedS> There's nobody else in the building
[09:41] <jpds> BigRedS: Sure?
[09:41] <MartijnVdS> not even a security camera?
[09:41] <BigRedS> I've just no idea what characters my keyboard is sending, and I can't find a way to find out
[09:41] <BigRedS> MartijnVdS: There is a security camera which can see my keyboard but not my monitor
[09:41] <jpds> BigRedS: Ctrl-Alt-F1; and type.
[09:41] <BigRedS> Which is handy for look-busy
[09:41] <BigRedS> jpds: yeah, the characters look fine there
[09:42] <BigRedS> that's what's puzzling me. You used to be able to test this in the 'username' box
[09:45] <BigRedS> Ah, caps lock
[09:45] <BigRedS> peculiar
[09:46] <BigRedS> lower-case in the TTYs, upper case n the login window
[09:46] <MartijnVdS> I think capslock is a per-tty setting
[09:46] <MartijnVdS> (and X runs its own tty)
[09:59] <BigRedS> ahh
[09:59] <BigRedS> still, I pour apple juice all over my keyboard way more frequently than I log in where someone's looking over my shoulder :)
[10:01] <BigRedS> (the original problem was each keypress generating three characters, which I've since put down to yesterday's lack of hand/eye coordination)
[10:01] <kvarley> MartijnVdS: I did that and there's no change
[10:01] <kvarley> BigRedS: I understand that Ubuntu uses gnome and want to keep it. But there are gnome entries in the login manager and it's actually using straight gnome login manager and stuff so it's overwritten elements of ubuntu
[10:05] <czajkowski> Aloha
[10:05] <wintellect> o/
[10:05] <MartijnVdS> morning czajkowski
[10:05] <BigRedS> kvarley: by 'ubuntu' do you mean 'unity' at the end there?
[10:05] <BigRedS> else i'm a bit confused (but MartijnVdS probably isn't )
[10:06] <MartijnVdS> If he did a partial upgrade, that means update-manager was confused and needed to do a dist-upgrade
[10:06] <MartijnVdS> So I guess it wasn't a 10.10->11.04 thing
[10:06] <kvarley> BigRedS: Found the problem, for some reason when I installed libgtkmm 3 support for programming it marked gnome3 to be be installed but it only happened when the updates came through
[10:07] <MartijnVdS> ah yes
[10:07] <MartijnVdS> The Gnome3 packages aren't compatible with the Gnome2 ones used by Unity/Ubuntu
[10:08] <BigRedS> ah! gnome3!
[10:08] <kvarley> <3 synaptic
[10:08]  * MartijnVdS prefers dpkg and aptitude :)
[10:09]  * BigRedS has apt-get too ingrained in muscle memory to use aptitude
[10:09] <MartijnVdS> BigRedS: alias apt-get aptitude
[10:09] <MartijnVdS> BigRedS: done :)
[10:09] <BigRedS> Doesn't aptitude do that mutltiple-solutions thing?
[10:09] <BigRedS> and score them
[10:10] <BigRedS> or is that only for dist-upgrades
[10:10] <MartijnVdS> BigRedS: only if that's necessary
[10:10] <MartijnVdS> It does autoremove automatically when you remove/purge a package
[10:10] <oimon> i can see why they took aptitude off the cd ..it's huge :)
[10:10] <MartijnVdS> which is nice
[10:10] <BigRedS> ah yeah
[10:10] <BigRedS> does it have a way of purging an already removed package?
[10:10] <MartijnVdS> dunno
[10:10] <MartijnVdS> dpkg does that for me :)
[10:11] <BigRedS> ah, that'll do. How? :)
[10:11] <MartijnVdS> dpkg --purge some_packagE_name
[10:11] <BigRedS> oh
[10:11] <BigRedS> That's nice and simple
[10:11] <oimon> man aptitude...purge is there
[10:11] <BigRedS> yeah, but only for a package that's already installed
[10:12] <BigRedS> and I don't want to uninstall the alternative to install the original in order to purge it
[10:12] <kvarley> I find the package in synaptic and get the file list, then rm all the files listed
[10:12] <MartijnVdS> BigRedS: This purges all packages that have been removed: dpkg --purge `dpkg -l | grep ^rc | awk '{print $2}'`
[10:12] <popey> Morning all
[10:12] <MartijnVdS> popeyman
[10:12] <kvarley> \0 popey =)
[10:12] <czajkowski> popey: elllo
[10:13] <BigRedS> kvarley: that involves an afwul lot of work I'd rather have the computer do :)
[10:14] <kvarley> BigRedS: True, I had to do it with catalyst once =(
[10:14] <popey> kazade: what does it do?
[10:14] <popey> delete all your photos?
[10:15] <kazade> yeah
[10:15] <kazade> well, from the ubuntu one storage
[10:15] <popey> :S
[10:15] <kazade> and now I don't know if I have them all on my desktop PC
[10:15] <kazade> I'm waiting for some guy in the U.S to wake up to see if they can recover the folder
[10:16] <oimon> i just filled up my /boot :(
[10:16] <popey> you have a /boot? How quaint.
[10:18] <oimon> scared to reboot now, snce it happened during a apt upgrade
[10:18] <BigRedS> if a grub-update works I imagine the worst you'll have is an incomplete kernel
[10:19] <MartijnVdS> BigRedS: yeah who cares about those anyway :P
[10:19] <BigRedS> I'd be tempted to make space in /boot and do apt-get -f install
[10:19] <MartijnVdS> or an incomplete initrd
[10:19] <BigRedS> MartijnVdS: well, he's clearly got a collection of them
[10:19] <BigRedS> :)
[10:20] <oimon> well it says it's OK
[10:20] <oimon> after cleaning kernels and doing a grub update...although when apt-get dist-upgrade finished, /boot was 100%...so rather worrying
[10:21] <BigRedS> how big is your /boot?
[10:21] <BigRedS> (and why's it on a separate partition?)
[10:22] <oimon> 145M
[10:22] <oimon> used to be enough in the olden days :D
[10:23] <MartijnVdS> oimon: I remember when 640k was enough for everyone :)
[10:24] <oimon> putting /boot on a separate partition comes from the redhat habit of putting / on an lvm, requiring /boot on a separate partition
[10:25] <oimon> and / is on ext4 on my machine, which was new at the time
[10:26] <BigRedS> ahh
[10:27] <BigRedS> On desktops, I still just throw everything into a big ext3 /
[10:35] <JGJones_> me too
[10:36] <MartijnVdS> ext4 here
[10:41] <JGJones_> hmm my daughter just saw the unity interface for the first time (upgraded yesterday), and after showing her around it, she tells me that she like it and want it on her computer. Her computer's a old macbook running osx.
[10:41] <oimon> my home is mounted via nfs
[10:41] <oimon> i have /boot, / and /scratch
[10:42] <MartijnVdS> Time for some LA Noire :)
[10:42] <brobostigon> good morning everyone.
[10:43] <popey> JGJones_: put her dock on the left, job done
[10:44] <popey> (I have my osx dock on the left)
[10:45] <czajkowski> tea toast and peanutbutter is the breakie of gods
[10:45] <JGJones_> popey - yeah I did that. She now want the colours too.
[10:48] <JGJones_> czajkowski, I do worry...don't you realise how peanut butter is made? http://dl.dropbox.com/u/314653/peanut.jpg
[10:48] <czajkowski> awwwwww
[10:48] <czajkowski> crude!
[10:50] <JGJones_> by the way...what do I need to have irc running on a server so that I can connect to it from any computer in the house (the server would be always connected to the freenode irc) -
[10:50] <Laney> console or gui?
[10:50] <daubers> Morning
[10:50] <JGJones_> console since it'll go onto a server
[10:50] <MartijnVdS> screen, irssi
[10:50] <brobostigon> :)
[10:51] <JGJones_> I can then connect to irssi using xchat?
[10:51] <Laney> I was talking about the client
[10:51] <bigcalm> JGJones_: you can use irssi as a proxy as well
[10:51] <Laney> irssi can run a proxy so you can do that
[10:51] <Laney> there's smuxi or quassel which can run a server/client thing
[10:51] <JGJones_> proxy..that's the word I was trying to remember - yup after a irc proxy
[10:52]  * JGJones_ goes to check out irssi
[10:53] <oimon> why would a machine dislpay "boot error" when booting from usb when other machines act OK with the same usb stick
[10:54] <siliconmeadow> anyone here know if there is an issue with ubuntu repos this morning? The machines I'm trying to update are ... well not getting updated.
[10:58] <siliconmeadow> oimon: do the other machines have the same bios, etc?
[10:59] <kvarley> Can't install ubuntu-desktop =( http://paste.ubuntu.com/616566/
[10:59] <kvarley> It's because the gnome3 ppa managed to overwrite the gnome stuff when I ran system updates, so now it's corrupted it or something.
[11:00] <brobostigon> siliconmeadow: i am using the german repos here, and its updating fine with "sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get upgrade"
[11:00] <popey> brobostigon: i think you mean "sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get dist-upgrade"
[11:01] <brobostigon> popey: goodpoint,yes.
[11:02] <livingdaylight> why is unity bar stuck on the left and not available as a dock stn. top or bottom?
[11:02] <Laney> settings are bad

[11:02] <BigRedS> livingdaylight: it's a return to the gnome of old
[11:02] <BigRedS> less configuration = less confusion
[11:02] <BigRedS> :)
[11:03] <livingdaylight> BigRedS: ic, didn't see your meaning at first. Then why stick it on left by default?
[11:04] <livingdaylight> I always heard that gnome was just as configurable as kde but it was more "hidden"
[11:04] <BigRedS> back in the day, the big complaint people had about Gnome was that all the defaults were wrong and you couldn't change them
[11:04] <BigRedS> except the people who liked it, who said that all the defaults were right and you shouldn't change them
[11:05] <livingdaylight> lol, you're right
[11:05] <BigRedS> and, basically, that's where Unity is now
[11:05] <ali1234> much like unity, the only people who liked gnome back then were the developers
[11:05] <ali1234> and eventually they were forced to relent because everyone switched to KDE
[11:05] <BigRedS> and those for whom the defaults happened to fit
[11:06] <BigRedS> yeah
[11:06] <BigRedS> thing is, this isnt (I gather) an idealistic issue
[11:06] <ali1234> the defaults didn't fit anyone
[11:06] <davmor2> morning all
[11:06] <ali1234> spatial browsing is still rubbish
[11:06] <siliconmeadow> and then KDE shot themselves in the foot
[11:06] <BigRedS> It's not that Unity is under the impression these things *shouldnt* be changeable, it's just htat nobody's yet written the bit that makes them changable
[11:06] <ali1234> it was still the default in gnome until 3.0 as well
[11:06] <BigRedS> spatial browsing?
[11:07]  * davmor2 prods czajkowski just well cause her has probably done something to deserve it ;)
[11:07] <livingdaylight> I wondered too; spatial browsing?
[11:07] <ali1234> no, shuttleworth actually believes these things shouldn't be changable
[11:07] <BigRedS> oh
[11:08] <ali1234> spatial bvrowsing is when you open nautilus and click an icon, and it opens a new window for the new directory
[11:08] <gord> [citation needed]
[11:08] <BigRedS> Hah. So Unity is actually striving to be the new gnome-in-the-late-nineties?
[11:08]  * czajkowski tickets davmor2 and pours jam all over him
[11:08] <ali1234> and you can only have one window of each directory open as well
[11:08] <BigRedS> ali1234: I gave up on naughtylus ages ago
[11:08] <BigRedS> it never did what I wanted/expected it to do
[11:08] <livingdaylight> ali1234: why would shuttleworth believe something shouldn't be configurable? "shouldn't" is such a strong word
[11:08] <gord> the reason why the unity launcher is on the left and not on the bottom/top is because of the interactions with the ubuntu button
[11:08] <ali1234> livingdaylight: because it fragments the user base apparently
[11:08] <davmor2> czajkowski: ticketing me?
[11:09] <gord> NOT because someone said "don't let users move it"
[11:09] <livingdaylight> ali1234: is he also against other window managers for the same reason? I thought Linux was all about choice?
[11:10] <BigRedS> he's not 'against' other WMS
[11:10] <BigRedS> hence [X|K|L]buntu
[11:10] <BigRedS> er, with another 'u'
[11:10] <livingdaylight> yet believes giving people choice of configuration will fragment userbase? makes no sense
[11:10] <BigRedS> gord: that was more what I suspected - there's no reason to not except that nobody's made it work yet
[11:11] <BigRedS> livingdaylight: ubuntu's the only distro that regards [distro + kde] and [distro + gnome] to be two separate distros
[11:11] <livingdaylight> gord could ubuntu button not stay stuck with top panel or move with the bar wherever it gets positioned?
[11:12] <ali1234> what exactly is that ubuntu button supposed to do?
[11:12] <JGJones_> spatial browsing? In Unity? I don't see this - nautlius stay with same window when browsing.
[11:12] <gord> there is so much gossiping around unity/ubuntu these days with no actual hard facts - just assumptions - it doesnt' do this or that because everyone making it is evil or stupid, its getting to be rather annoying
[11:12] <kazade> livingdaylight, +1, I've always thought the ubuntu button should be another entry in the launcher, not part of the panel
[11:12] <BigRedS> gord: it probably doesn't help that there's no big coherent "The Plan" document floating around
[11:12] <kazade> then again, I also think the panel needs to go completely :p
[11:12] <BigRedS> so all anyone's doing is guessing
[11:12] <gord> livingdaylight, hard if you want a panel at the top and a launcher along the bottom
[11:13] <gord> BigRedS, if you find one of those, i wouldn't mind a look :) unity is always in active development, there is no "the plan.doc", its flexable and changing always like any other software
[11:13] <BigRedS> gord: yeah, I'm not really suggesting there should be one
[11:13] <BigRedS> but obviously in the absence of a public plan, everyone's going to have their own guesses/rumours about what the plan actually is
[11:14] <ali1234> so shuttleworth said of moving the launcher: "I'm afraid that won't work with our broader design goals, so we won't  implement that. We want the launcher always close to the Ubuntu button."
[11:14] <oimon> wow this room is chatty today
[11:15] <livingdaylight> I don't know what the plan is; as a user i'm just reporting that the thingy bar stuck at the left is a mite annoying. If gnome is going in the direction of copying osx then why not turn it into a nice docking station?
[11:15] <gord> ali1234, which is pretty much what i just said
[11:15] <ali1234> gord: you claim that a patch allowing this would be accepted into the mainline unity project?
[11:16] <kvarley> To cut a long story short. I added the gnome3 ppa and ran updates, it upgraded my gnome so ubuntu wouldn't work. I removed the packages it installed and the ppa. Now I can't install gnome or ubuntu-desktop, how can I fix this?
[11:16] <gord> ali1234, no, like i said, there isn't a good solution, the launcher has to be near the bfb
[11:16] <livingdaylight> and launcher and ubuntu button can't and must not be separated? and ubuntu button must be in the top left-hand corner?
[11:16] <ali1234> gord: oh, so when you said "it can't be moved only because nobody implemented it yet" that was in fact totally untrue?
[11:16] <gord> ali1234, BigRedS said that
[11:17] <ali1234> oh yeah, sorry :)
[11:18] <livingdaylight> kvarley: good argument for a rolling distro. In theory should make what youre doing easier. Now you've opened a pandora's box. That's why I never mess with my install with adding kde and this and that. It changes the integrity of default installation and makes going back hard - no matter what they tell you is supposed to happen in theory.
[11:19] <kazade> I still don't see why the bfb can't just be attached to the launcher... and then you can have pretty much any panel/launcher position you want
[11:19] <ali1234> moving the launcher wouldn't fix any of the serious design problems with unity anyway
[11:20] <kazade> true
[11:20] <ali1234> like i said yesterday, docks are broken by design
[11:20] <kvarley> livingdaylight: I hate to be irritating but - what did that message gain me? I realise I'm in a bad position, the only way out will be a reinstall afaik. Just irritating that Ubuntu can't handle gnome 3 packages
[11:20] <kazade> in fact, moving the launcher is the least of my worries :p
[11:20] <ali1234> and global menu is an abomination
[11:20] <kazade> the whole panel is an abomination
[11:20] <kazade> if the panel ceased to exist, I'd love unity
[11:21] <kazade> shove the indicators elsewhere and stop compressing stuff into a tiny space for no reason. Or, just not merge the titlebar for maximized windows and shove in an OSX style global menu
[11:21] <livingdaylight> kvarley: clearly nothing, sorry. I knew that, but was sort of commiserating with you having been there myself. Reinstall is probably the safest bet
[11:22] <livingdaylight> ali1234: do you use ubuntu gnome or something else?
[11:22] <kvarley> livingdaylight: Hehe sorry, that sounded a little aggressive on my part. Am just gutted I've messed up the install. At least I managed to install kubuntu-desktop for the time being
[11:22] <ali1234> livingdaylight: i use unity
[11:22] <livingdaylight> kvarley: no worries
[11:22] <livingdaylight> ali1234: i got the impression you didn't like unity; hence might use something else
[11:22] <ali1234> i don't like it
[11:23] <ali1234> i use it anyway
[11:23] <livingdaylight> lol
[11:23] <ali1234> i like it more than any of the alternatives
[11:23] <livingdaylight> wow
[11:24] <gord> kvarley, so the problem with installing gnome3 ppa on natty is that you are basically grabbing libraries from ubuntu 11.10 and throwing them in to 11.04, which causes problems, i mean, its really not advised :) unless you are brobostigon and have magical powers to make it all work okay
[11:24] <livingdaylight> I'd like to see gnome3 in action but not messing with ppa's
[11:24] <ali1234> you're not missing anything
[11:24] <ali1234> gnome3 is like unity except worse
[11:24] <ali1234> gnome-shell that is
[11:24] <BigRedS> haha
[11:24] <brobostigon> gord: hehe :) cheers.
[11:25] <BigRedS> I was expecting most of the unity-dislikers to prefer gnome3
[11:25] <ali1234> i prefer gnome classic
[11:25] <ali1234> but nobody is willing to support it any more so i have to stop using it
[11:25] <BigRedS> ali1234: gnome classic? I just call it Gnome
[11:25] <BigRedS> it shipped in Squeeze. That's support for about five years
[11:25] <brobostigon> i just dont like unity's workspace implementation, gnome-shell's is better, good workspaces are importent for my sanity.
[11:26] <ali1234> yeah unfortunately squeeze doesn't support my video card properly
[11:26] <livingdaylight> I actually don't dislike unity; but see how it can be better; more configurability and by that i largely mean maneouvribility would be nice for a start
[11:26] <BigRedS> gnome3's workspaces are *good*?
[11:26] <brobostigon> BigRedS: for me, yes.
[11:26] <livingdaylight> for some reason workspaces in unity are limited to 4
[11:26] <gord> nope
[11:26] <gord> you can make more
[11:26] <livingdaylight> gord ?
[11:26] <BigRedS> nah, but it does rather rudely make them into a squre on upgrade
[11:27]  * livingdaylight begs gord Please tell me HOW?
[11:27] <gord> livingdaylight, its a compiz option, we just don't have a good way of letting you make more without opening up ccsm right now
[11:27] <livingdaylight> so, its in ccsm?
[11:27] <gord> livingdaylight, its in ccsm somewhere, i think general options? you can select the number of horizontal/vertical workspaces
[11:28] <livingdaylight> kewl, lets see...
[11:28] <BigRedS> brobostigon: I'm intrigued. Do you just scroll through until you get to the right workspace, or just 'know' when workspace 2 has gone and what was on 4 is now on 3? I spent a while trying to get used to it and just couldn't manage the whole empty-workspaces-disappear thing
[11:31] <brobostigon> BigRedS: i do keep trck, i my unconcious, what is where, yes. and i normall switch between workspaces, either with alt-tab, when i am un main window view, and sorts apps based of wrokspaces. or if i am in activities, i use the switcher. but yes, i do keep track,what is where.
[11:31] <BigRedS> Ahhh, that's the bit I didn't manage
[11:31] <livingdaylight> gord: don't see it right now. But if you say it is I'll have another look later
[11:32] <gord> livingdaylight, general options, desktop size
[11:33] <brobostigon> BigRedS: best thing would be to use alt-tab, as it worts everything, firstlt, based on workspace, then app, then that apps windows.
[11:33] <BigRedS> Hm. Anyone able to reccomend a terminal-based Nagios status monitor that I can connect to two nagios machines?
[11:33] <BigRedS> brobostigon: the alt-tab I found infurating, too :) It seemed to make it take forever to find things. I think the larger problem was that I approached it wanting to carry on working as I already do
[11:33] <BigRedS> and one of the stated points of it is to encourage people to not do that
[11:34] <brobostigon> BigRedS: it encourages,better organisation of your apps and their windows, and the workspaces theyare in.
[11:35] <livingdaylight> gord: general options yes, desktop size no? http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/815/ccsm.png/
[11:36] <livingdaylight> gord scratch that - got it
[11:36] <kazade> livingdaylight, you need to click "General Options" under general
[11:36] <livingdaylight> kazade: ^^
[11:36] <kazade> :)
[11:36] <brobostigon> BigRedS: previously there was not such organisation, an it made for very bad organisation, for me.
[11:36] <BigRedS> brobostigon: for a particular definition of 'better' :)
[11:36] <brobostigon> BigRedS: yes, quite. :)
[11:36] <BigRedS> for ages, I've had ws1 for local shells, 2 for web+IM, 3 for remote shells and 4 for mail
[11:37] <brobostigon> BigRedS: ok.
[11:37] <BigRedS> and and I kept finding mail was on 3 because I had no local shells open...
[11:37] <brobostigon> BigRedS: yes, that sounds normal.
[11:38] <BigRedS> Other than the workspace model, I found it quite agreeable
[11:38] <brobostigon> :)
[11:38] <BigRedS> except that when I tried to set the default number of workspaces to four it broke it in some way that I couldn't be arsed to fix
[11:39] <brobostigon> hmm,weird.
[11:39] <BigRedS> I'd fiddled with it quite a bit - it was probably my fault rather than gnome's
[11:39] <kazade> I like the look of Gnome 3
[11:39] <BigRedS> but I've lost most of my enthusiasm for window managers of late. I just want them to work...
[11:39] <kazade> more so than Unity
[11:40] <kazade> I just haven't got around to "breaking" my Natty install to try it
[11:40] <brobostigon> BigRedS: maybe, yes,i have broken things plenty. by fiddling sometimes.
[11:45] <Laney> how's this for a program name
[11:45] <Laney> !info bognor-regis
[11:45] <BigRedS> haha
[11:46] <davmor2> http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/229187/30_days_withubuntu_linux.html many of you may of seen this already but I thought it worth highlighting
[11:52] <gord> oh he's just started? my poor attention span will not be able to pay attention ;)
[11:59] <selinuxium> hi all. o/
[11:59] <davmor2> morning selinuxium
[12:04] <mrwarmth> selinuxium: afternoon
[12:04] <BigRedS> g'morning selinuxium!
[12:05] <selinuxium> :)
[12:05] <selinuxium> Having a mare with one of my servers today... :)
[12:05] <dwatkins> hiya folks
[12:05] <selinuxium> hey dwatkins
[12:13] <mrwarmth> selinuxium, what's up with them?
[12:18] <oimon> just had an unproductive 1/2 hour on kde :( the panel crashed, ark terminated without error because of quota fillup...unfortunately RH6.0 is still on KDE 4.3.4
[12:18] <oimon> i don't think they can call it stable
[12:20] <selinuxium> mrwarmth, running on vmware. sluggish..
[12:21] <selinuxium> looks like I had automatic security updates enabled which updated the kernel...
[12:21] <selinuxium> Reboot last night has left machine running like a dog. need to recompile vmtools for the new kernel...
[12:24] <oimon> watching the windows8 teaser video..wonder what spec hardware it is
[12:28] <JGJones_> oimon, obviously quite a high spec - they always use high spec to make everything as smooth as possible. Don't worry...when they release, it'll come with the minimum spec of 386SX and 8Mb or something equally daft.
[12:36] <mrwarmth> selinuxium, at least the server's secure though :)
[12:37] <selinuxium> mrwarmth, lol
[12:45] <oimon> anyone with small children that can recommend some easy fitting locks for low level kitchen cupboards?
[12:48] <dogmatic69> oimon: you get some things like cable ties for the younger kids
[12:49] <oimon> looking at these but haven't used them irl http://www.babysecurity.co.uk/products/1756/Emmay-Magnetic-Lock--4-Locks-1-key.html
[12:49] <dogmatic69> something like http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000NUT5PS/ref=asc_df_B000NUT5PS3064770?smid=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&tag=googlecouk06-21&linkCode=asn&creative=22206&creativeASIN=B000NUT5PS
[12:49] <dogmatic69> the one i pasted does not require any tools etc which is good
[12:53] <oimon> dogmatic69: have you used that one?
[12:54] <oimon> might be good for my cupboard under the sink
[12:54] <oimon> currently i struggle to open the baby gate one-handed...baby laughs at me when i can't do it..i think there's a problem with it :)
[12:55] <DJones> Heh http://imagebin.org/index.php?mode=image&id=156456
[12:59] <JGJones_> oimon - don't worry...years later, my kids still laugh at me and think I'm an idiot...you get used to it :D
[13:51] <MartijnVdS> \
[13:51] <MartijnVdS> \o/ hotel & Eurostar booked
[13:52] <oimon> for oggcamp ? :P
[13:52] <MartijnVdS> oimon: no, can't attend (have to be in Riga for YAPC the day after)
[13:52] <oimon> :D
[13:52] <MartijnVdS> oimon: Going to the scifi exhibition in the BL
[13:53] <oimon> i think my missis is going to that (on a different day)
[13:53] <MartijnVdS> oimon: (https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-uk/2011-May/029624.html)
[13:53] <oimon> not really info SF
[13:53] <daubers> \o/
[13:53] <daubers> I'm quite excited about that :)
[13:54] <daubers> Need to rough out a timetable for the day and decide what bread/cake to make for it
[13:54] <czajkowski> CAKE!!!!!!
[13:54] <MartijnVdS> czajkowski: LIES
[13:54] <MartijnVdS> *ahem*
[13:54] <czajkowski> nope never
[13:54] <MartijnVdS> Played too much portal :)
[13:54] <czajkowski> daubers: always has cake
[13:54] <czajkowski> and we even have pimms also!
[13:54] <daubers> czajkowski: True :)
[13:54] <selinuxium> Pie flavoured pie!
[13:54] <popey> czajkowski: I think you mean Pimm's ☺
[13:54] <selinuxium> hey popey
[13:55] <popey> hello
[13:55]  * daubers needs to make 2 cakes, one for geeknic, one for oggcamp
[13:55] <MartijnVdS> \o popey
[13:55] <czajkowski> popey: you are no fun when you are pedantic spelling man
[13:55] <czajkowski> :(
[13:55]  * czajkowski goes and sulks on the bold step 
[13:56] <davmor2> czajkowski: see now if I'd of done that I'd of been sent to the naughty not popey no he does it and you go to the step, oh the injustice
[13:57]  * daubers waits for his pot noodle to cook
[13:58] <czajkowski> davmor2: he's got that daddy look about him
[13:58] <oimon> Pimm's ®
[13:59] <oimon> ahem
[13:59] <ali1234> why do i keep seeing ☺
[13:59] <oimon> you should see ®®®®
[13:59] <bigcalm> ali1234: because popey is easily amused
[13:59] <ali1234> is it my client?
[14:03] <Pendulum> Myrtti: thank you!!!!
[14:06] <oimon> daubers: which flavour pot noodle
[14:06] <daubers> oimon: Brown :)
[14:06] <daubers> Beef and Tomato
[14:06] <oimon> tomato and beef
[14:07] <oimon> soya substitute
[14:07] <oimon> :P
[14:07] <oimon> hmm i wonder why any video clips i take at concerts have terrible sound quality compared to other youtubers
[14:07] <MartijnVdS> oimon: because you put your finger on the mic?
[14:08] <MartijnVdS> My Ixus gets great audio, as long as I don't cover that hole (or point it at the drummer)
[14:09] <MartijnVdS> oimon: compare http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mM8TexJK9Y and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZGlYIdv7Mo
[14:09] <davmor2> oimon: curry
[14:10] <oimon> MartijnVdS:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AH-KpFBowX8
[14:10] <oimon> v rough sound
[14:11] <MartijnVdS> oimon: sounds like it's too loud for the mic
[14:11] <oimon> distortion due to max noise level reached i think
[14:11] <oimon> yeah
[14:11] <oimon> there's no settings to change that but other people produce lovely sound quality from the same gig
[14:11] <MartijnVdS> oimon: it depends on the make/model of the camera
[14:11] <MartijnVdS> oimon: and the quality of the mic/filter
[14:12] <MartijnVdS> oimon: some can handle loud sounds better than others
[14:13] <MartijnVdS> also, standing "podium-side" of the front speakers (i.e. behind them, on the artist side) helps -- sound is less loud there
[14:13] <MartijnVdS> (it doesn't hit the mic straight on)
[14:13] <oimon> yeah, although it's a weird venue and the speakers are at right angles to the stage, so i wasn't in a direct line, and it was the quietest concert i've ever been to volume-wise
[14:13] <MartijnVdS> oimon: what kind of camera were you using?
[14:14] <oimon> htc desire
[14:14] <MartijnVdS> that's the problem -- phone cams aren't made for loud noise
[14:14] <MartijnVdS> other people would have been using "proper" cameras (ixus, maybe even eos, stuff like that)
[14:14] <oimon> except....other people manage ok with their phones
[14:14] <oimon> dare i say ..iphones
[14:15] <popey> ali1234: I aliased colon bracket to ☺ in my client
[14:15] <MartijnVdS> oimon: Probably means HTC desires are bad ;)
[14:17] <oimon> cameras have beeter mics than phones?
[14:17] <MartijnVdS> Yes, phone mics are made for conversation, not loud noises
[14:17] <MartijnVdS> Camera mics are more general-purpose
[14:17] <MartijnVdS> or so I imagine
[14:20] <shauno> most phones want to localise a source.  they have a good idea where your face is going to be, and don't particularly want to listen to everyone else in the room
[14:21] <oimon> so long as all phones have the same problem, i'm kind of happy
[14:21] <Laney> bah BAH
[14:21] <Laney> how can gwibber still not have proxy support >:(
[14:22] <oimon> Laney: http://ubuntuone.com/p/x6A/
[14:23] <Laney> gnome already knows my proxy settings
[14:23] <oimon> unless you use anything besides twitter/identica
[14:23] <MartijnVdS> Laney: file bugs
[14:23] <Laney> there already is
[14:23] <oimon> i found the responsiveness of hotot 1000x the level of gwibber
[14:23] <Laney> one
[14:23] <Laney> but thanks for the suggestion :-)
[14:25] <popey> Laney: I still maintain that _all_ free software developers should setup a proxy and sit behind that for a year
[14:25] <oimon> hihihih
[14:25] <popey> _all_ of these stupid bugs would be fixed
[14:25] <MartijnVdS> also, turn off their monitors
[14:25] <mrwarmth> glad I'm not the only one who finds gwibber a bit sluggish, checking out hotot now
[14:25] <MartijnVdS> that would fix lots of accessibility bugs
[14:25] <Laney> popey: yeah, good idea
[14:25] <Laney> it's basically why I bothered to add proxy support to banshee
[14:25] <oimon> also use "normal" spec machines
[14:25] <Laney> so it would work at work
[14:25] <oimon> rather than "it doesn't do that on my million GB core i-7 machine"
[14:28] <mrwarmth> All developers should be forced to use an entry level spec machine one day a week to keep them humble
[14:30] <gord> no :P
[14:31] <MartijnVdS> A 486 should be enough!
[14:31] <MartijnVdS> with a 3dfx voodoo card
[14:32] <mrwarmth> gord, I'm just bitter because I use a low spec machine every day of the week
[14:38] <MartijnVdS> great, ipv6 packet loss on LINX
[14:39] <jpds> Nothing terribly important then.
[14:39] <MartijnVdS> jpds: guess how I'm connected to my VPS :)
[14:40] <shauno> almost related, I've discovered a fun 'feature' in osx's gettaddrinfo() that's breaking most ipv6 lookups for me :(
[14:41] <shauno> it does two lookups in parallel for A and quadA. takes the first result and runs with it.
[14:41] <shauno> so there's no rhyme or rhythm behind whether a name will return 6. if 4's cached on my isp's nameserver, 4 wins
[14:43] <MartijnVdS> shauno: Yeah, it's known broken
[14:43] <MartijnVdS> shauno: and apple claims NOTABUG
[14:43] <MartijnVdS> shauno: also, it can't cache different TTLs for v6 and v4
[14:43] <shauno> yeah. I found a whole presentation on why this is a feature :)
[14:44] <MartijnVdS> shauno: so if AAAA has a TTL of 600, and A 6000, things go _wrong_ after 600s (but before 6000s)
[14:44] <MartijnVdS> we'll see how well it works on Wednesday (world ipv6 day)
[14:45] <shauno> :)
[14:48] <shauno> only solution I've found so far is to use only a dns server with a v6 address.  that way all requests to it are dual-stacked, so it won't have a v4-heavy cache
[14:52] <MartijnVdS> just disable v6
[14:52] <MartijnVdS> you'll still have google, youtube, facebook
[14:53] <oimon> i wish centos would hurry up and release centos6...we're seeing a lot of noobs on the SL mailing list as a result of SL6 being out for months :P
[14:55] <MartijnVdS> http://test-ipv6.com/
[14:55] <MartijnVdS> ^ shauno what does that do on a mac?
[14:56] <shauno> I get 10/10 on both at home
[14:56] <shauno> but with a note that it's preferring v4
[14:56] <MartijnVdS> same
[14:56] <shauno> it's only an issue for things like ipv6.kernel.org, where the content presented over v4 isn't the same
[14:57] <MartijnVdS> my ISP/employer also set up v6 glue for our main domain's nameservers the other day
[14:57] <shauno> I did that a few months ago.  was fun, because I had no idea what glue was previously :)
[14:57] <MartijnVdS> shauno: http://www.ip6.nl/hall-of-fame.html
[14:59] <shauno> wahey .. it gave my domain thumbs up :)
[14:59] <MartijnVdS> what's your domain?
[14:59] <shauno> http://ip6.nl/test?domain=0fec92a7;oneil.me.uk
[14:59] <MartijnVdS> yay
[15:00] <MartijnVdS> it doesn't have Google-v6 access, it seems
[15:00] <MartijnVdS> My domain is v6-capable except for the MX bits
[15:03] <shauno> it's kinda wrong because I broke my secondary MX
[15:03] <shauno> but oh well
[15:04] <shauno> should fix that, but I want to finish tidying up so I can do-over on debian
[15:06] <DJones> I know people like Apple but this is a bit desperate http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/06/02/ipad_kidney/
[15:07] <MartijnVdS> Yay urban legends :)
[15:09] <DJones> At least the scar looks real http://life.globaltimes.cn/life/2011-06/661408.html :)
[15:10] <MartijnVdS> DJones: Oh the operation might be real. It's the story behind it that I doubt :)
[15:10] <DJones> MartijnVdS: Agreed, but it must be true, its on El Reg ;-)
[15:10] <oimon> or more like..boy sells kidney for shopping spree and drugs binge
[15:11] <MartijnVdS> oimon: to finance opium habit? :)
[15:20]  * oimon wants a beefy miracle t-shirt and doesn't even intend on using fedora
[15:23] <DJones> oimon: "beefy miracle" makes me think of Bothams Ashes in 1981
[15:25] <oimon> i want this t-shirt http://www.flickr.com/photos/mairin/5533211628/
[15:25] <DJones> :)
[15:26] <MartijnVdS> omg
[15:26] <MartijnVdS> Wear it to a vegan convention
[15:30] <selinuxium> Old MacDonald had a farm... Om Nom Nom Nom Nom...
[15:32] <davmor2> selinuxium: ...and on that farm he had a pig.....okay who ate the pig... Om Nom Nom Nom Nom...
[15:32] <selinuxium>  :)
[16:10] <eoke> Hi I'm writing a little interface to a piece of hardware that uses XML over sockets.  The issue is I don't have access to the piece of hardware to test it at the moment.  So what I would like to do is put together a script that listens for a connection and returns a given xml message in response to a give xml requeset.  Any CLI commands you guys can suggest I've already tried netcat but can only get it to send a single message as soon as the client appli
[16:10] <eoke> cation connects.
[16:13] <BigRedS> eoke: tcpserver?
[16:13] <BigRedS> http://cr.yp.to/ucspi-tcp/tcpserver.html
[16:13] <BigRedS> I've never used it myself, though. only things that have
[16:14] <eoke> Cheers BigRedS that may do just what I'm after thank you.
[16:31] <Azelphur> http://skype-open-source.blogspot.com/2011/06/skype-protocol-reverse-engineered.html
[16:31] <Azelphur> finally
[16:32] <MartijnVdS> cue protocol change in 5..4..3..2
[16:34] <Azelphur> hehe
[16:35] <DJones> Typical, any microsoft software can be hacked :)
[16:35] <MartijnVdS> DJones: all software can be reverse-engineered
[16:36] <DJones> MartijnVdS: Yep, although it shows how much people care that nobody has really reverse-engineered MS Publisher
[16:38] <MartijnVdS> DJones: or Visio file format
[16:38] <DJones> I've never looked at visio so I don't know how difficult those files are
[16:38] <MartijnVdS> They're probably not that hard
[16:39] <MartijnVdS> but there aren't any similar enough tools in Linux, I think
[16:39] <eoke> Open/Libre office draw has some of the same features, not bad in a bind.
[16:40] <MartijnVdS> sure, but it's not quite the same
[16:41] <MartijnVdS> though people love my graphviz diagrams :)
[16:41] <MartijnVdS> well, graphs really :)
[16:41] <DJones> eoke: It wasn't so much the features I was thinking about, more the file types
[16:54]  * DJones wonders if popey will be buying an Xperia Play http://www.reghardware.com/2011/06/02/xperia_play_new_games_at_e3/
[16:54] <popey> he will not
[16:55] <popey> minecraft is planned to follow on iOS
[16:55] <DJones> Heh
[16:58] <popey> http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/367768/asus-to-ship-ubuntu-netbooks
[16:58] <MartijnVdS> cool
[17:54] <Myrtti> Pendulum: hope the package contents come in useful
[17:54]  * czajkowski hugs Myrtti 
[17:54] <Myrtti> I on the otherhand needed to reschedule flights back to Finland even earlier...
[17:55] <Myrtti> just hoping Ill make it back in time.
[17:56] <Myrtti> see you, -->
[17:56] <czajkowski> Myrtti: take care
[19:05] <Pendulum> Myrtti: considering they came right after one of the scarier experiences I've had, they've already been useful!
[19:05] <Pendulum> and the mug is beautiful :)
[20:09] <KrimZon> in a gnome 2 desktop, are the workspaces part of metacity?
[21:13] <AlanBell> evening all
[21:21] <Pendulum> hiya AlanBell
[21:27] <gord> hey AlanBell, saw you crop up in the font video the other day, the entire affair was kind of weird - spent the entire time going "this is just all the people i know o_O"
[21:57] <AlanBell> o/ Pendulum
[21:58] <AlanBell> gord: yeah, Ivanka wondered about grabbing people to interview, it was a bit odd, I was just there for the beer
[21:58]  * AlanBell has 7 minutes of internet remaining :(
[21:59] <Laney> :(
[21:59] <AlanBell> it was free wifi in the bar up to last night
[21:59] <Pendulum> aww
[21:59] <AlanBell> now you have to buy tokens
[21:59]  * Pendulum hugs AlanBell 
[21:59]  * AlanBell hugs Pendulum 
[22:00] <AlanBell> just got to the bottom of my email list (and beer)
[23:58] <shauno> I can't figure out how debian's postfix is this broken out of the box :/