=== jelmer_ is now known as jelmer [18:02] #startmeeting [18:02] Meeting started at 12:02. The chair is holstein. [18:02] Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE] [18:02] WELCOME ubuntu studio contributors team :) [18:03] [topic] agenda https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Meetings/2011June5 [18:03] New Topic: agenda https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Meetings/2011June5 [18:03] lets get started [18:03] who is here? [18:03] o/ of course..., and? [18:05] i'm here for the meeting [18:05] o/ [18:05] scott-upstairs: i just dropped the link to the agenda https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Meetings/2011June5 [18:05] and started roll-call [18:06] astraljava: hey [18:07] im sure folks will sneak in [18:07] oi, here [18:07] and ckontros is here [18:07] anyways... [18:07] holstein: Sorry for being distracted. [18:07] [topic] old buisness [18:07] New Topic: old buisness [18:07] i have "none" [18:07] and i think that is accurate [18:07] hey guys [18:07] yes, i don't think we have anything carrying over this meeting [18:07] just thought id pose that as we wait for folks to trickle in [18:08] my first IRC meeting, please be gentle [18:08] falktx: welcome :) [18:08] lol [18:08] astraljava: no worries [18:08] [topic] Oneiric Timeline https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Oneiric/Timeline [18:08] New Topic: Oneiric Timeline https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Oneiric/Timeline [18:09] scott-upstairs: you added this [18:09] i think its shaping up [18:09] scott-upstairs: you want to discuss a bit? [18:09] oi, yes...just a rough time line, please review it and the things your responsible for/helping with and adjust as needed [18:10] at some point (very soon hopefully) this will be a little more fleshed out and we can start maintining a better schedule for this cycle [18:10] we can use this to gauge our process and also as reminder of what we need to do and when we need to do it by [18:10] [action] review the timeline at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Oneiric/Timeline and adjust/help as needed [18:10] ACTION received: review the timeline at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Oneiric/Timeline and adjust/help as needed [18:10] furthermore it shows how other things are depending on the current task (if applicable) [18:11] scott-upstairs: you mention putting it in chronologic order [18:11] i say, if someone wants to do that, let them [18:11] otherwise, its working for me as-is [18:12] yes, i thought that putting it in chronological order would help understand how things should move forward [18:12] but the colors would help people associated related items [18:12] scott-upstairs: it wont hurt, i could look into doing that [18:12] for example, the website tasks which would span many months but are defintely related [18:12] holstein, but i wanted to make sure people had made their edits first [18:12] [action] holstein to re-order the timeline chronologically [18:12] ACTION received: holstein to re-order the timeline chronologically [18:13] i thought it would be easier to do that way...or at least less confusing [18:13] eh, i dont mind looking at it later too [18:13] if i need to re-do some things [18:13] anyways, i'll either do that, or ask for help with it :) [18:14] scott-upstairs: anymore on that? [18:14] not at this time, holstein [18:14] [topic] Website Update [18:14] New Topic: Website Update [18:14] i was hoping kokito would be here, but he said he couldnt be [18:14] right, but i have some information...and not all is good [18:14] anyways, scott-upstairs, do you have links handy you want to drop here? [18:14] or news? [18:15] jorge will cease working on the website effectively immediately because he is taking a new job that will move him to japan [18:15] :( [18:15] the relatively good news is that what he has done is fairly mature and can be used [18:15] but we will still need to do a few things however [18:15] we need to discuss where we are going to host it [18:16] firstly [18:16] does anyone have any opinions on this matter? should we continue to squeek along with canonical hosting and limited access or should we push forward and host ourselves? [18:17] * scott-upstairs hears crickets chirping [18:17] scott-upstairs: i think it depends [18:17] scott-upstairs: i think anything that helps the ease of use for the end user would be a good choice [18:17] as of now,t he cannonical hosting is not working for us [18:17] furn: hello [18:17] right, i recently (two days ago) got access to our website sent to me so we are not relying on eric anymore for updates [18:18] holstein: afternoon kind sir [18:18] scott-upstairs: im comfortable leaving that up to you [18:18] however i would suspect getting other access would be as laborious and i can't do everything in this matter [18:18] if you feel like thd current system can work now that you have access [18:18] so i would push for hosting ourselves but i want to get input from others [18:18] i mean, we can vote it out [18:19] right, holstein, make an action item please about me researching what is available for hosting, i.e. price, bandwidth, storage, etc, etc [18:19] [action] scott-upstairs to research alternative hosting plans [18:19] ACTION received: scott-upstairs to research alternative hosting plans [18:19] scott-upstairs: Do we have any measurements, like how many are accessing our site daily? [18:19] basically i feel that unless someone strenuously disagrees with us hosting our own i'll research it and put it to the group [18:20] scott-upstairs: you want to leave it at that for now? and vote next time with mor information? [18:20] scott-upstairs: Might help in deciding about the hosting. [18:20] we still have to evaluate what the costs are and if we can do that [18:20] scott-upstairs: i think hosting ourself at any capacity at this point is a good option [18:20] aye, but would everyone agree with putting up five quid to help ;) [18:20] scott-upstairs: thats the issue [18:21] we need to have all the information, and go from there i say [18:21] lets table it til we get some #'s [18:21] let me/us know if we can help gather information [18:21] i can ask jorge via email too about hosting, he seemed to indicate that it shouldn't be that big of a deal [18:21] could we setup a donation system on the site as a non profit? [18:21] i think cory mentioned away to get some funds as well, perhaps from canonical? i'll ask cory as well [18:22] we could do that furn [18:22] [action] vote next meeting about where the new site will be hosted [18:22] ACTION received: vote next meeting about where the new site will be hosted [18:22] im going to skip the XFCE topic in hopes that ckontros makes it back [18:22] i think at this point with so many indie devs having paypal donation buttons, the act of politely suggesting the point of donation isnt quite as audacious as it once was for free media [18:23] [topic] Menu changes [18:23] New Topic: Menu changes [18:23] furn: not to cut you off [18:23] holstein, i can answer some xfce changes but i agree let's wait and see if cory comes back, if not we can go with what i know [18:23] * scott-upstairs is looking for screen shots [18:24] scott-upstairs: personally, i like the generic menu items [18:24] for example, when i need to burn an iso in brasero, that has nothing to do with the menu its located in [18:24] other distros (many ubuntu studio derivatives) use additioanl submenus for audio applications [18:24] example screenshot: http://tangostudio.tuxfamily.org/images/stories/tangostudio-karmasutra.png [18:24] i think some of that might happen with putting apps like qtractor in a MIDI tab [18:25] i mean, qtractor is *not* the go-to daw, but if you want to record audio with it [18:25] and its in the MIDI menu... [18:25] right, but synthesisers could safely be put into a synth submenu [18:25] BUT, the scrolling for apps in the giant menu is a mess* [18:25] the same for effects [18:25] scott-upstairs: agreed [18:25] the current menu IS better because we cut some [18:26] my feeling is to leave it as is because it's a lot of manual coding to "fix" it [18:26] well, thats my other argument too [18:26] if other's feel that this is a benefit then i would be happy to make the changes [18:26] its more work than i feel like we need to take on right now [18:26] IF, and only IF... [18:26] holstein: i think everyone can nit pick about a menu item that isnt properly placed, but considering out somewhat savvy user base having something like qtractor under midi isnt too big [18:26] someone can clearly identify what they want [18:26] BUT, something we should keep on the table for the future for sure [18:27] i have it in the "release planning" wiki so it's not going away forever [18:27] i propose we vote to put this off til the next cycle* [18:27] seconded [18:27] cool [18:27] obvisouly there isn't enough support for it :P [18:27] * ckontros is "here" but not here. Im just looking in when I break from cutting my grass. ;) [18:28] ckontros, you want to talk about xfce? [18:28] this is how you vote +1 / -1 / +0 [18:28] Sure. [18:28] ckontros: yeah, hang for a sec [18:28] and you're next [18:28] holstein, i'm not sure we need to vote [18:28] [vote] hold menu re-vamp til next cycle [18:28] Please vote on: hold menu re-vamp til next cycle. [18:28] Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to MootBot [18:28] E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting [18:28] only two voiced opinions and we both said nay [18:28] +1 [18:28] +1 received from holstein. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1 [18:28] +1 [18:28] +1 received from scott-upstairs. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2 [18:28] well, its official :) [18:29] * falktx people type too fast... [18:29] hehe [18:29] +1 [18:29] +1 received from astraljava. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3 [18:29] can I show a quick screen shot ? [18:29] it's about this [18:29] +1 [18:29] +1 received from christof. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4 [18:29] falktx: sure [18:29] christof: hello [18:29] i think thats the majority [18:29] hi all [18:29] [endvote] [18:29] Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4 [18:30] can ckontros go? [18:30] [action] postpone menu revamp til next cycle (12.04) [18:30] Sure [18:30] ACTION received: postpone menu revamp til next cycle (12.04) [18:30] * scott-upstairs is anxious to get him while he's here [18:30] But wait. [18:30] [topic] XFCE/UI Changes [18:30] New Topic: XFCE/UI Changes [18:30] basically I already have the code for this (more submenus) [18:31] IDK We have to become more familuar with how XFCE does menus. [18:31] falktx: yeah, hold that til the end if you dont mind* [18:31] Im unsure if we can apply the same work we did in GNOME ot XFCE. [18:31] http://kxstudio.sourceforge.net/tmp/scr001.jpeg [18:31] LINK received: http://kxstudio.sourceforge.net/tmp/scr001.jpeg [18:31] holstein: k, sorry [18:31] falktx: no worries :) [18:32] falktx: But your install is all or nothing correct? [18:32] ckontros: i would imagine its quite different [18:32] mmm, falktx that is a good looking screenshot [18:32] Sorry to back-track but I gotta chime in. [18:33] ckontros: nope, let me get you a quick deb [18:33] here: [18:33] https://launchpad.net/~kxstudio-team/+archive/kxstudio/+files/kxstudio-menu_3.0%7Egit20110527-0%7Enatty1_all.deb [18:33] the deb is the stuff for this menu [18:33] falktx: So your saying your work applies to any menuing system? [18:34] ckontros: yes, I made it work under gnome, kde and xcfe at least [18:34] i think that xfce follows the freesektop.org guidelines better than other DE's [18:34] agreed* [18:34] scott-upstairs: kde does so, it's just gnome that is the weird thing, like they were the bosses... [18:34] Ok. We'll look into this. Move along. :) [18:35] yeahm, we can always put it back on the table* [18:35] anytime really, if we find that its something easy that we can handle [18:35] sure, I usually around if anyone wants to know more stuff about it [18:35] i still say that just because we can do this (adjust menu structure) that we shouldn't unless there is a demand [18:35] We might be able to do it this cycle [18:35] and i don't think that the demand is really there apparently [18:36] let' [18:36] well, its postponed as it stands [18:36] scott-upstairs: the menu gets pretty big and it's a pain to use... [18:36] scott-upsrairs: I say that we at least copy our current functionality. Unless *-menu was removed last cycle. [18:36] ie: With the A/V submenus. [18:37] defintely copy our current functionality for now [18:37] let's get some of the larger issues under our belt and then see about the restructuring [18:37] +1 [18:37] we still ahve to migrate to xfce [18:37] THAT will probably be a bigger challenge than any realizes still [18:37] does the US theme works on xcfe? [18:38] falktx: Generally, yes. I have to make a XFWM theme. And thats in progress. [18:39] Feel free to move to next item. [18:39] hmmm, no ailo [18:39] holstein, can ckontros do his bit? [18:39] yeah, thats up [18:39] Wait, wait. Im not presenting. [18:39] I had no plans to anyway. [18:39] ckontros: you want to just give an update? [18:40] or drop some links? [18:40] can you update about the xfce stuff and you mentioned banging heads together about a few things [18:40] Ill happily answer any questions. :) [18:40] OK, that works [18:40] any questions? [18:40] Do we have a tentative date for new -settings/-look packages? [18:40] I mean things are gonna move better now that my uploading is sorted. [18:40] yay :) [18:41] Im gonna shoot for 1 week for settings. [18:41] Do you need help or testing? [18:41] i guess we need to update the -desktop package first [18:41] -Look will be what it is untill I get some of the art folks settled. [18:41] then -settings and -look ? [18:41] So -settings will have to hit then the seed changes. [18:42] setting first? i would have thought we needed to update -desktop first [18:42] wans't that what we were looking at earlier on pastebin? [18:42] No. Because -desktop is made from the seeds but will dep on *-settings. [18:42] IIRC [18:43] this "chicken and/or egg" thing gets confusing sometimes :/ [18:43] ;) [18:43] ckontros: you need help/testing ? [18:43] so hopefully before Alpha2 we should have something to test? [18:43] So we can get things ready in the seeds and -settings but they should push to the srchine @ the same time. [18:44] *Hopefully* But Im thinking things will be rocky for a month or so. [18:44] i imagine we will need to make adjustments (possibly many as bugs are found) to the seeds and -settings [18:44] ckontros, so the plan is replicate our current functionality as far as UI right? [18:44] Side note to all this, we can test upgrade paths but my official stance is new installs. [18:44] after we get things stable, then we shoot for a new UI? [18:44] Correct [18:44] cool to both :) [18:45] ckontros: Is there a newer screenshot for the new UI prototype? [18:45] holstein: No. [18:45] the other question from the agenda is Should we provide a option that looks like old UI? [18:45] i say, if its not dirt-simple, no [18:45] I'll upgrade the wiki with new info soon but its slow going at this point. [18:45] i dont think its going to be a giant departure in look/feel [18:45] +1 (to no that is) [18:46] maybe someone can hack something in a ppa to help users BUT [18:46] if we move to a new UI it should be default and we should push that [18:46] yeah, something unoffical is welcome for sure [18:46] Well, it kinda will. Just AWN at the bottom as opposed the the panel across the top. But all functionality is replicated. [18:46] [action] Should we provide a option that looks like old UI? - not officially [18:46] ACTION received: Should we provide a option that looks like old UI? - not officially [18:46] I have to pop up again here, as I am developing a replacement for *-controls [18:47] ckontros: cool, thanks :) [18:47] np [18:47] it is meant for kxstudio mainly, but I'm working to get it nicely goind with others distros too [18:47] [topic] Documentation Updates [18:47] New Topic: Documentation Updates [18:47] holstein, can we break and address falktx 's comment first? [18:47] scott-upstairs: you want to comment? ask for help officially? [18:47] scott-upstairs: sure [18:48] can I continue? [18:48] falktx, what does the -controls update do? what functionality? [18:48] sure falktx :) you da man! [18:48] for now the controls don't do much, as everything is already working in kxstudio ;) [18:48] * scott-upstairs has a strat and isn't afraid to play it ;) [18:48] but it checks for the kernel version and user/audio thing now [18:49] faltx one thing we have tried to do with updating -controls is to author the app with the perspective of someone "updating" from vanilla ubuntu to ubuntu studio [18:49] the more important thing about this app it's that it contain other cool sub-apps [18:49] so this would include checking if user is in audio group currently [18:49] a jack-patchbay, a-la patchage [18:49] falktx: How about we team up and refine -controls rather then have parallel efforts? [18:49] ckontros: we have different targets [18:50] Like? [18:50] ckontros: for example, It also works as a plugin host [18:50] oi, it controls jackd, can start applciations [18:50] it manages WineASIO too [18:50] screenshots coming [18:50] you can install plugins (or at least assign where to look for them) [18:50] this is the main app: [18:50] http://kxstudio.sourceforge.net/tmp/scr002.jpeg [18:50] LINK received: http://kxstudio.sourceforge.net/tmp/scr002.jpeg [18:50] http://kxstudio.sourceforge.net/tmp/scr003.jpeg [18:50] LINK received: http://kxstudio.sourceforge.net/tmp/scr003.jpeg [18:50] http://kxstudio.sourceforge.net/tmp/scr004.jpeg [18:50] LINK received: http://kxstudio.sourceforge.net/tmp/scr004.jpeg [18:51] these are the 3 main tabs of it [18:51] the first manages system stuff (jack, alsa bridge, a2j and pulse2jack too) [18:51] falktx: Well you mentioned "replacing" *-controls. SO if we have different targets, why replace? [18:51] ckontros: cause I want to incorporate all *-controls functionality inside [18:52] ckontros: once ready, I want to push it to debian too [18:52] Forgive me, Im just trying to understand how the targets are different. [18:52] falktx, does it adjust jackd settings; rtprio, etc [18:53] scott-upstairs: it works with jackdbus right now. but I want to make it work with jackd too, soon [18:53] ckontros: well, someone once told me that having WineASIO option in a US official tool was a bad tihng [18:53] *thing [18:54] ckontros, i think it is currently intended to target the kxstudio audience where many things we worry about are already configure by installation [18:54] and that the "Audio Plugins PATH" management is also not very linux friendly [18:54] and they target different applications, including vst, wineasio, and applications that falktx has written [18:54] falktx: Having the option for us would be no different than Debian. We just cant include the other packages by default. [18:54] good work by the way [18:54] thanks [18:55] ckontros: I know, any non-working option can be hidden if needed [18:55] for example, WineASIO stuff is auto-hidden if WineASIO is not installed [18:55] maybe falktx and ckontros can discuss and report next meeting? [18:55] sounds like something we could potentially take advantage of* [18:56] +1 or until after we get a working install with xfce ? [18:56] ckontros: I also target jack2 and ladish in partical (more focus to it), which I don't think US is ready for now [18:56] Sure. So, is this a situation where you just wanna do what you do and not work directly with us on our -controls app? I can get that. I just wanna be clear. [18:56] [action] falktx and ckontros to discuss *-controls functionality and report [18:56] ACTION received: falktx and ckontros to discuss *-controls functionality and report [18:57] ckontros: I can focus on the *-controls stuff if needed. but it's my own app, please understand [18:57] I've been working on it since the last 4 months or more... [18:57] as far as documentation updates, let me just action-item these entries [18:58] [action] Documentation - Clarification: generally help.ubuntu.com is for users and wiki.ubuntu.com is for developement [18:58] ACTION received: Documentation - Clarification: generally help.ubuntu.com is for users and wiki.ubuntu.com is for developement [18:58] i was hoping ailo would be here for the documentation part but i have a structure for the help.ubuntu.com section [18:58] [action] Documentation - The plan is to reorganize the help.ubuntu.com documentation [18:58] ACTION received: Documentation - The plan is to reorganize the help.ubuntu.com documentation [18:58] Ill let the meeting move on. And really, this isnt my call anyway as my involvement is for UI stuff and this cycle only. ;) === apachelogger is now known as kernellogger [18:58] [action] Documentation We will be deprecating older pages, modifying current ones, and creating additional pages as needed [18:58] ACTION received: Documentation We will be deprecating older pages, modifying current ones, and creating additional pages as needed [18:59] [action] Documentation - Is anyone else interested in assisting? [18:59] ACTION received: Documentation - Is anyone else interested in assisting? [18:59] here is the proposed structure, please ignore/forgive the link top: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/IntroTutVideos [18:59] [action] Documentation - ScottL would also like to work on wiki.ubuntu.com [18:59] ACTION received: Documentation - ScottL would also like to work on wiki.ubuntu.com [19:00] scott-upstairs: i say, shout out when you need help, and feel free to assign me to said tasks [19:01] right, i'll confer with ailo later about this, but unless someone strenuously objects AND wants to put forth an alternative, i'm going forward soon [19:01] [topic] New Applications [19:01] New Topic: New Applications [19:01] the basic goal would to be to make this more untutivie and user friendly [19:01] ^^^ documentation [19:01] yeah, im plowing on [19:01] :) [19:01] [action] plugins - mda-lv2, eq10q, autotalent,invada-studio-plugins-lv2, vocproc, wah-plugins, foo-yc20, amb-plugins, dssi-vst, lv2vocoder, omins [19:01] ACTION received: plugins - mda-lv2, eq10q, autotalent,invada-studio-plugins-lv2, vocproc, wah-plugins, foo-yc20, amb-plugins, dssi-vst, lv2vocoder, omins [19:02] there are several new apps i would like to include and they support things [19:02] oh, you posted it [19:02] is that really an action? [19:02] [action] ladish - ladish, gladish, ladi-tools [19:02] ACTION received: ladish - ladish, gladish, ladi-tools [19:02] is ladish on 11.10 now ? [19:02] i would like for us to move to ladish as well unless someone objects [19:02] depends on if they are being added i suppose [19:02] yes falktx [19:02] cool [19:02] they are in debian and ubuntu now [19:02] more of a highlight than an action [19:02] I have one thing that might interest you all right now [19:03] [action] mudita24 - envy24control update, trying to get into Debian in time for Oneiric [19:03] ACTION received: mudita24 - envy24control update, trying to get into Debian in time for Oneiric [19:03] functionality is still sketchy from my experience but i expect it to get better ;) [19:03] what is that falktx ? [19:03] take a look please - http://kxstudio.sourceforge.net/tmp/scr005.jpeg [19:03] * scott-upstairs will talk about mudita in a minute [19:03] can you explain the functionality falktx ? [19:03] sure [19:04] it checks for the current installed packages (not binaries), and displays them [19:04] the list is hardcoded [19:04] it seems that it duplicates some of the functionality of ladish however [19:04] ^ because of this, we can know where docs are installed [19:04] this way we can select an app and click "documentation" [19:05] we can always create like "US-docs" package and point to it too [19:05] this app also helps ladish, by providing pre-setup templates for many apps [19:05] (anyone here knows about ladish internals?) [19:05] falktx, i know some, can we discuss this together after the meeting? [19:05] scott-upstairs: sure [19:05] this can help the menu situation of menus too [19:06] thanks, i fear other's eyes will glaze over otherwise and we're behind on the meeting [19:06] instead of putting into the menu, let the app look for it and display it [19:06] oh, sorry [19:06] ok, moving on [19:06] ? [19:06] mudita24 is the next version of envy24control which is for ice1712 chips (i.e. maudio delta series) [19:07] i'm hoping it goes into debian soon and then i'll file to sync with ubuntu if it isn't in time for debianimport [19:07] okay, done [19:07] [topic] Testing Procedures [19:07] New Topic: Testing Procedures [19:07] i dont think we have anything official to test [19:07] so i say we hold that til next time [19:07] * falktx looks in debian git [19:08] not there [19:08] right but it would be nice to have someone who will oversee testing [19:08] i was going to ask ailo :/ [19:08] falktx, http://packages.debian.org/unstable/main/ladish [19:08] he's really methodical about the tests we have done so far [19:08] but he's really only been testing the kernel [19:08] i really wanted someone to oversee all of it [19:08] right, i was going to ask though :) [19:08] remind people to test when builds come out [19:09] develop testing procedures [19:09] etc [19:09] yeah, we need that* [19:09] hmmm... [19:09] astraljava, you interested perhaps in helping with this? [19:09] astraljava: ? [19:09]