[22:47] <MrChrisDruif> phillw; which theme of Xubuntu was good for accessibility? And what made it so good?
[22:53] <phillw> MrChrisDruif: you, rafael and charlie-tca would need to chat about that. The kubuntu graphics guy is a really nice guy and it does seem that the two kindred spirits get on really well with each other.
[22:54] <MrChrisDruif> phillw; It seems Rafael isn't much on IRC....and not very cooperative...I've had some off mailing-list conversation with him...
[22:54] <MrChrisDruif> He works better alone I would say :)
[22:55] <phillw> the design work for the kubuntu area is breathtaking. You lads wanting to learn web-site stuff could learn SO much from the kubuntu people. 
[22:55] <maco> the kubuntu graphics guy = who?
[22:55] <maco> roman used to do the login screens to match the wallpaper...is that who you mean?
[22:56] <MrChrisDruif> Don't you mean ochosi?
[22:56] <maco> i dont know who ochosi is
[22:57] <maco> not a name ive seen in #kubuntu-devel at all
[22:57] <MrChrisDruif> I think he made blue- and graybird
[22:57] <MrChrisDruif> #shimmer is for theming right?
[22:57] <maco> i dont know what you're talking about now
[22:58] <maco> is that an upstream channel or something?
[22:58] <MrChrisDruif> Ow...kubuntu...
[22:58] <MrChrisDruif> shimmer is from xubuntu
[22:58] <maco> oh ok
[22:58] <MrChrisDruif> xD
[22:58] <MrChrisDruif> Sorry aboot that
[22:59] <MrChrisDruif> phillw; So it was the theme from Kubuntu that is great...or that from Xubuntu?
[22:59]  * MrChrisDruif is getting confused :P
[22:59] <phillw> it was,
[23:00] <phillw> afaik, it was charlie-tca who said it was one of the kubuntu themes that he had spent a long time on getting sorted.
[23:00] <MrChrisDruif> K?
[23:00] <charlie-tca> except from an accessibility viewpoint, for poor visual ability, plasma is really hard on the eyes
[23:00] <charlie-tca> phillw: xubuntu
[23:00] <maco> even with a different plasma theme?
[23:01] <charlie-tca> maco: I don't know how to change themes in Kubuntu
[23:01] <MrChrisDruif> Aloha charlie-tca :)
[23:01] <phillw> charlie-tca: so the theme is via xubuntu?
[23:01] <charlie-tca> but that default is really hard to read
[23:01] <charlie-tca> phillw: yes
[23:01] <charlie-tca> the greybird theme is a good theme for most of us
[23:01] <maco> charlie-tca: system settings -> workspace appearance -> desktop theme    changes plasma's theme
[23:01] <phillw> charlie-tca: soz, I thought you were a kubuntu person!
[23:01] <maco> charlie-tca: system settings -> workspace appearnce -> window decorations    for title bars
[23:01] <MrChrisDruif> As you might have realized...I've taken it upon myself to make an accessibility theme for Lubuntu
[23:02] <maco> charlie-tca: system settings -> application appearance    for the window chrome
[23:02] <charlie-tca> phillw: Xubuntu Project Lead
[23:02] <charlie-tca> Kubuntu accessibility tester
[23:02] <charlie-tca> Ubuntu accessibility tester
[23:02] <MrChrisDruif> charlie-tca; So we're pretty good along the way with our accessibility theme already?
[23:02] <phillw> charlie-tca: again my apoligies, I thougt it was kubuntu!
[23:03] <charlie-tca> MrChrisDruif: you are? that's a good thing. 
[23:03] <charlie-tca> yeah, too much transparancies letting the background and fonts blend is not so easy to read
[23:04] <phillw> charlie-tca: regardless of the tone of emails flying backwards and forwards. I assure accessibility that 
[23:04] <phillw> Lubuntu IS commited
[23:04] <charlie-tca> I got that :-)
[23:04] <MrChrisDruif> Well...if you can take a look at ozone? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/Artwork/Incoming/Natty/Ozone Current theme in Natty
[23:05] <charlie-tca> the only developer we got around is TheMuso, and he is usually really busy
[23:05] <MrChrisDruif> To what are we committed phillw ? Or better put, to what not? :P
[23:05] <MrChrisDruif> I don't see TheMuso say much indeed
[23:06] <charlie-tca> I keep telling shimmer what blends too much, and ochosi made some serious efforts to get greybird where it should be usable by anyone.
[23:06] <TheMuso> I lirk, but I am often busy as charlie-tca said. If people want my attention on IRC, they need to signal me via my nickname, then I respond.
[23:06] <phillw> charlie-tca: I have chatted to TheMuso, hence his name being used when JM gave his opinion! - These devs do not pander to the electorate and wrap stuff in cotton wool - they say it as they see it.
[23:07] <charlie-tca> MrChrisDruif: I like that
[23:07] <MrChrisDruif> charlie-tca; Ozone you mean?
[23:07] <charlie-tca> You might have some fine tuning on the white titles on the blue, but that is nice theme
[23:07] <charlie-tca> yeah
[23:08] <MrChrisDruif> phillw; Hear that?
[23:08] <charlie-tca> phillw: unfortunately, so do I, so do I
[23:08] <phillw> TheMuso: hopefully, as Lubuntu gets past the next hurdle, we may have a little more dev time to help eachother.
[23:09] <TheMuso> phillw: Cool./
[23:09] <MrChrisDruif> So we'd only need to look into the white on blue lettering and we're pretty much a done deal charlie-tca ?
[23:09] <maco> charlie-tca: im a developer...
[23:09] <phillw> JM is certainly up for it, as are people from SII etc.
[23:09] <maco> just not on canonical payroll like TheMuso ;)
[23:09] <charlie-tca> phillw: I am sure you noticed I don't back down easily. I think Lubuntu has a niche to fill, and I really want it to succeed.
[23:10] <charlie-tca> MrChrisDruif: from what I see there, yes. there will always be some tuning to work out, but for the most part, it looks good.
[23:10] <charlie-tca> dam
[23:10] <charlie-tca> phillw: I lied
[23:11] <charlie-tca> maco is a developer too
[23:11] <phillw> charlie-tca: Lubuntu will succeed, as for backing down? That is not required. Imagine if the only choice you had was Win, or N
[23:11] <phillw> Mac?
[23:11] <charlie-tca> probably some more around here
[23:11]  * MrChrisDruif checks it of his todo list
[23:11] <charlie-tca> phillw: I agree
[23:11] <phillw> withing the linux family we have hunders, possibly thousands of flavours.
[23:11] <maco> im still pretty noob on a11y coding, but ive got the basics of ATK hinting sorted
[23:11] <charlie-tca> and I am pretty sure lubuntu doesn't want to integrate orca as it is today, too
[23:12] <MrChrisDruif> It's strength and it's weakness at the same time
[23:12] <MrChrisDruif> I read something about a C or C++ implementation of Orca?
[23:12] <phillw> charlie-tca: from what I understand, it pulls in gnome and all its dependant relatives. This is not something we can do :(
[23:12] <charlie-tca> experience with orca in Xubuntu says it ain't lightweight by any means
[23:12] <MrChrisDruif> Not only good for Lubuntu /me thinks
[23:12] <TheMuso> MrChrisDruif: Not confirmed, parts of orca may be ported to C to improve performance.
[23:13] <charlie-tca> yes, someone is working towards something in C, I think
[23:13] <TheMuso> Not necessarily, it depends on whether its worth the porting, i.e whether performance is that much better.
[23:13] <charlie-tca> phillw: given a choice between orca and none, choose none for this cycle. 
[23:13] <MrChrisDruif> That's what I read as well TheMuso 
[23:13] <AlanBell> I am not sure what is slow about orca
[23:14] <charlie-tca> AlanBell: I don't see it as slow, but I don't count it as light either. 
[23:14] <phillw> charlie-tca: okies, as you all know. we are pretty tight on what we can add to Lubuntu without breaking our rules on what it must run on.
[23:15] <charlie-tca> yup
[23:15] <charlie-tca> I would like to see dasher working in everything, but at least try for Onboard Keyboard, it does help, at least.
[23:15] <phillw> AlanBell: it is down to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu#System requirements
[23:16] <AlanBell> oh, lubuntu stuff
[23:16] <phillw> AlanBell: that is wat we are discussing :)
[23:16] <AlanBell> but that is a we won't use gnome thing rather than a performance thing
[23:16] <MrChrisDruif> s/ /%20
[23:17] <MrChrisDruif> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu#System%20requirements
[23:17] <charlie-tca> AlanBell: more of a "make it work in the 128MB ram" thing, I think
[23:17] <phillw> AlanBell: we will use anything that keeps us in that requirements. Remember Apollo 13? -- There is a red line in AMPS to get it to work, we have the same to do.
[23:18] <AlanBell> yeah, apollo 13 doesn't fly any more
[23:18] <phillw> If we cannot, we cannot - but that is no excuse for not trying.
[23:19] <AlanBell> but hey, it sounds like a fun project
[23:19] <charlie-tca> I like the idea of a very lightweight ubuntu derivative.
[23:20] <charlie-tca> I have sent several people to try it, when they compain about slow systems.
[23:20] <AlanBell> I give people more ram
[23:20] <phillw> AlanBell: ooh, goodie, I know several thousand people waiting for such gifts :P
[23:20] <MrChrisDruif> RAM != faster system ;)
[23:21] <AlanBell> anyhow, does lubuntu expose stuff to accercciser?
[23:22] <MrChrisDruif> AlanBell; What?
[23:22] <AlanBell> MrChrisDruif: lack of ram is almost always the only performance problem
[23:22] <phillw> AlanBell: a lot of people with accessibilty issues are in the lower quadrant of income. they cannot afford the 'latest' computer. My interest in this also rolls over to the ubntu-uk thread of school computers. 
[23:23] <AlanBell> accerciser shows you what information is available over at-spi
[23:23] <MrChrisDruif> AlanBell; I meant the second sentence..."does lubuntu expose stuff to accercciser?"
[23:23] <AlanBell> phillw: yeah, and the stuff being pushed out by remploy is perfect for gnome, if it had more ram, so I am looking at how to up their spec
[23:24] <phillw> Back in 10.04 alpha2 we had a teacher from india come on and say he had managed to keep his little school lab going, on a blade server, of all things, because lubuntu used 30% less resources than the gnome one. Blade servers are not really designed with serving multiple dumb terminals, but that guy did it.
[23:25] <phillw> Give them the tools, they will make what they need.
[23:30] <phillw> charlie-tca: by the way, once JM has a chance, he is going to load up LightDM and compare resource usage to lxdm. As I said, I do recall some chatter about lightDM, but I'd rather have some one run some stats on them both.
[23:30] <charlie-tca> Great! 
[23:31] <charlie-tca> In xubuntu, it works quite nicely, and doesn't have near the gnome dependencies of GDM
[23:31] <charlie-tca> phillw: let JM know it crashes at login right now, but does not seem to block anything. 
[23:31] <phillw> charlie-tca: as we are virtually gnome free, lxdm is pretty lean :)
[23:32] <charlie-tca> I just keep getting a apport crash in oneiric from it
[23:32] <phillw> dropping HAL (whatever that is :P ) has taken a little time also
[23:32] <charlie-tca> It is really easy to theme too
[23:33] <charlie-tca> Yes, HAL had to go away. It was the way most power stuff was managed. dbus has replaced it, but I understand very little other than HAL is "bad" now
[23:35] <phillw> AlanBell: I have lost my begging list for second hand computers for F/OSS projects, could you or one of the ubuntu-uk people please resend it to phillw@ubuntu.com 
[23:35] <charlie-tca> I guess I better go make moinmoin desktop edition work with python greater than 2.6 now.
[23:38] <MrChrisDruif> moinmoin desktop edition? So you can WYSIWYG it on your own pc?
[23:38] <AlanBell> phillw: do you mean this? https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-uk/2011-May/029581.html
[23:44] <phillw> AlanBell: that's the one, thanks.
[23:45] <AlanBell> http://www.ecycleonline.co.uk/choose-your-computer---ubuntu-12-c.asp
[23:46] <AlanBell> talking to them about doubling the RAM on the ubuntu models so they are higher spec than the XP ones
[23:47] <AlanBell> nothing wrong with the CPU but 256 is rather tight
[23:47] <AlanBell> would like to put a gig on all of them tbh
[23:48] <AlanBell> I have one of the Dell boxes in the pictures, works fine with a gig of ram running unity, single core 1.6Ghz processor
[23:48] <AlanBell> and they are the UKs largest employer of people with disabilities apparently
[23:52] <charlie-tca> MrChrisDruif: a short version of moinmoin, uses python 2.6 or less. It does not a full lamp installed
[23:55] <phillw> AlanBell: when I was plant chemist (many, many moons ago) we used to make the foam seat tablets for Remploy to turn into office furniture. It really is a small world. I did read, also many years ago that they shut that Remploy factory down :( 
[23:55] <charlie-tca> MrChrisDruif: let's me plan pages out without using wiki.ubuntu.com for it. I just copy and paste when I build them. 
[23:55] <charlie-tca> http://moinmo.in/DesktopEdition
[23:56] <AlanBell> wiki.ubuntu.com is actually likely to be somewhat fixed soonish
[23:56] <charlie-tca> It just saves a lot of frustration doing it on my own computer first
[23:57] <AlanBell> yeah, I understand totally
[23:57]  * charlie-tca been hearing wiki.ubuntu.com will be fixed soon for a l-o-n-g time
[23:57] <AlanBell> http://wiki-test.ubuntu.com/Accessibility
[23:57] <charlie-tca> besides, it keeps me from complaining too loudly to the website people.
[23:58] <AlanBell> yeah, I have been pestering them for over a year, but now there is an actual running test instance of 1.9.1 with Xapian turned on and a getuser cache patch
[23:58] <charlie-tca> That will help a lot!
[23:58] <AlanBell> http://moinmo.in/MoinMoinBugs/GetSubscribersSlow
[23:59] <charlie-tca> that is a nice page. Will we get it?
[23:59] <AlanBell> http://wiki-test.ubuntu.com/SystemInfo actually running 1.9.2
[23:59] <charlie-tca> I got 1.9.3 running here, but have to use python2.6 for it to work