[00:11] shadeslayer: from an upstream POV no release scheduling for the frameworks would be entirely harmful [00:12] essentially it would tear apart the foundations of KDE applications [00:12] to that degree KDE frameworks is the foundation, in order to build a solid app you need a solid foundation [00:14] whether anything but the core workspace should be bound to the release schedule of the framework is however a more approachable topic for discussion IMHO [00:17] hm, apachelogger: you think I can get a kde svn acc. for editing that page? Not sure if that's reason enough to get one since I don't really do any other work for KDE directly ATM [00:19] I don't really want to run after people for every release either though... [00:23] well [00:23] yofel: I believe you'll need www karma too :P [00:24] ... [00:24] yofel: what shall I add to that inc? [00:25] There's a Kubuntu entry already, uncomment it, fix the release version and the kubuntu.org link [00:25] roger [00:26] yofel: identity.kde.org -> register -> login -> you should be able to request dev account from there -> name me as advocate -> if at all possible also mention clearly that you will need access to those pages and thus likely www karma [00:26] does Kubuntu have guest login? [00:27] no, there was a todo for that at some point I believe [00:27] never got implemented [00:27] yeah, would you like it? [00:28] apachelogger: define www karma... [00:29] I'll implement it into QLightDM, we can decide later if we want to support it in the greeter. [00:30] yofel: advanced access, so one can edit kde websites [00:30] should be no work. [00:30] not every developer gets access to those [00:30] as one could inflict directly user visible damage and what not [00:31] d_ed: IMHO guest accounts are worthwhile, if done well from a security perspective [00:31] ah k [00:33] sitter * 1235859 * trunk/www/sites/www/info/binary-4.6.4.inc 4.6.4 for kubuntu [00:33] thanks :) [00:33] yw [00:39] apachelogger: ? [00:41] txwikinger: nvm [01:08] apachelogger: Desktop Summmit? Should work [01:08] yay [01:08] * apachelogger hugs Blizzz [01:08] Nightrose: ^ I got better accomodation :P [01:08] apachelogger: ah! i am not in Berlin till Sunday afternoon [01:09] if u arrive Fri, it should fit again [01:09] I arrive saturday, or even sunday, so no problem eitherway [01:09] or someone else is gonna be here [01:09] ok [01:09] * apachelogger can stay one night in a hotel/hostel/trainstation ^^ [01:10] I believe it is sunday though, unless my sister moved here wedding around again ^^ [01:10] s/here/her [01:10] anyone know how to rebuild the qt4-x11 package after modifying some source code? [01:11] when I attempt a rebuild it just executes the last step (dh binary --parallel --with pkgkde_symbolshelper,lzma) [01:11] it doesn't realize that some source files have changed and some may need to be rebuilt [01:12] apachelogger, ^^? [01:15] debuild -us -uc [01:15] apachelogger, won't that clean the build and start from scratch? [01:15] yes [01:16] dpkg-buidpackage -j should be faster [01:16] I only want to rebuild the stuff that's changed [01:16] yofel, I've been using DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=parallel=16 [01:16] a target that once was processed will not be processed again (i.e. calling binary will not call build) [01:16] heh [01:17] well, he could make the target PHONY I think [01:17] (or I don't understand make) [01:17] apachelogger, seems like that should be changed, especially for something that takes as long as qt to build :) [01:17] I don't really know how to make it work though... [01:17] so either you manually run the build target or make or remove whatever marker there might be, or you do a clean build [01:17] yofel: you should read the make manual my friend [01:17] but if I had to do that for the kernel or xorg-server (where I mainly hack), I would be throwing fits :) [01:18] a pony target does no more than indicate that the target is not a file [01:18] apachelogger: I did (most of it at least) and IIRC .phony targets were exectued whether they need to be built or not [01:18] hm... [01:18] * yofel goes back to reading the manual [01:19] yofel: that would imply that binary also does build [01:19] I guess I'll kick off a new build... [01:19] ah right :S [01:19] so I'd say build creates a file that it checks later [01:20] actually IIRC a phony target will only be executed upon direct call [01:20] IIRC, I tracked it down once, but it's something really hairy to change given the current build system of the qt4-x11 package [01:20] so unless the target is prequesite of another target it will not get run at all [01:21] cnd: just run make [01:21] and then make -f debian/rules install [01:21] and then binary [01:21] with a bit of luck that should pick up stuffz [01:46] apachelogger, I'll try that next time :) [01:46] thanks! [01:46] np [02:34] yofel: we might want to hold off on split tars of 4.7 for now [02:34] perhaps only throw non-split stuff in a PPA? [02:34] seems we'll get mono tars for 4.7b2 and those are going to stay for all of 4.x [02:35] I would've waited with those for a final word from the release team anyway [02:35] or we would've just done useless work [02:36] * yofel needs a touchpad for his desktop PC [02:36] using notebooks a lot makes a mouse feel odd when you actually do use one -.- [02:37] * yofel wonders if that apple trackpad would work [02:47] I wonder if one can make lightDM buildable without gnome at some point... [02:47] $ ./autogen.sh [02:47] You need to install gnome-common from the GNOME CVS [02:47] -.- [02:49] yofel: we could surely package libs,pimlibs and perhaps workspace [02:50] yofel: gnome-common should not require gnome stuff I think [02:50] just common buildsystem stuff IIRC [02:50] yofel: also thread about further release stuff on kde-release, in case you want to chip in [02:50] ah, I'll check [02:51] workspace is split currently, not sure if we want that, pim/libs is fine though [02:54] yofel: I thought workspace was mono, except for wallies? [02:54] workspace was part of kdebase, so I'm not sure if they'll put that back together [02:55] ah wait, that was seperate anyway [02:55] * yofel is too tired [02:55] * JontheEchidna adds kaccessible to the CD since it's now in main [02:57] * apachelogger needs to learn going to bed at a sensible time :O [02:58] * yofel too [02:58] it's only 22:00 here [02:58] 4:00 AM here [02:58] I've been staying up until 0300 local time though :s [03:14] so I know at least one reason why kde-window-manager depends on the whole kdebase-workspace-bin [03:15] the Oxygen KWin style is part of the kde-window-manager package which depends on liboxygenstyle, which is a library with a non-guaranteed A{P/B}I which lives in kdebase-workspace-bin [03:16] Solutions to this I see are: [03:16] - Split the WM themes in kde-window-manager (or at least oxygen) out into individual packages [03:17] - Split liboxygenstyle out of kdebase-workspace-bin and use the Debian ABI manager stuff to help with the potential breaks-with-no-abi-change [03:19] This is another example of something that could cause problems with KDE's demodularization, since there are a set of libraries in kdebase-workspace that currently have no expectation of a stable API/ABI [03:19] we have seen a little bit of this already with third-party taskbar widgets using libtaskmanager from kdebase-workspace [03:22] They could get away with this within KDE proper in the past, since everything was released together and was (re)built together, meaning that the code released would either be rebuilt for ABI changes or had been updated for API changes since everything had to at least build [03:23] but if things get too decentralized without a plan, we could have situations like abi breakage with third party task manager widgets within KDE proper [03:23] * yofel remembers the kwin breakage in neon which was essentially an ABI mismatch between stable liboxygen loaded by KDM and neon liboxygen used by kwin [03:24] I am all for splitting in to smaller tarballs, and maybe even forcing more stability in internal API is good, but the haphazard handling that has come about of it so far is worrying. [03:25] well, they are discussing it at least. What I'm confused about is what they are discussing now. Somehow it seems they're trying to redefine what it is they're shipping yet again... [03:25] and we still have no final word how 4.7 will look like. Neither beta2 in sight [03:26] oh, looks like the whole kde-workspace folder is still together in one tar, so maybe workspace libs aren't too big of a thing to worry about [03:26] yeah, kdebase is pretty much split up as we had it, except konsole which is seperate now and they took the wallpapers out of workspace [03:26] nobody likes downloading wallpapers if they don't have to :P [03:27] not much change in our binary package layout though [03:27] yeah, splitting is just going to cause a lot of work moving stuff around [03:27] well, more like git sucks at handling large binary files :P [03:28] wallpapers are still in svn [03:28] * yofel wonders if we could recompress oxygen-icons with xz, would help a LOT [03:28] I think my api/abi argument stands, though, since lots of the kdegraphics libs seem to be separate now, and digikam loves to depend against shiny new abi-breaking versions [03:29] yeah, we already have 5 project-neon-lib* packages, and it'll only get worse it seems [03:42] * yofel is off to bed finally, good night === JontheEchidna changed the topic of #kubuntu-devel to: Kubuntu: Friendly Computing | Merges: https://merges.ubuntu.com/main.html | TODO: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Todo [04:12] JontheEchidna: I made sure upstream knows about that implication [04:12] did not attend the relevant discussion though, steveire knows more [05:11] lol: [00:08:39] sreich: i think you mean the kscf5dkfksc4 (kde sc frameworks 5 development kit for kde sc 4) [06:39] JontheEchidna: lol [07:00] shadeslayer: whens your exam? [07:02] jussi: 3 hours [07:03] i'm pretty much sleepwalking around the houser [07:03] -r [07:03] soooo flipping tired [07:06] shadeslayer: try to sleep, it will help you concentrate :D [07:14] jussi: can't .... too tensed [07:15] * jussi hugs shadeslayer [07:15] anyways, i'm signing off ... [07:15] laters [07:15] * shadeslayer hugs kubotu [07:15] ciao [07:16] KDE review, by someone who has used gnome, since gnomes was in daipers. (and its a pretty nice review). http://www.siltala.net/2011/06/09/the-grand-review-pt1/ [07:16] (and he did it because I made him.... bwahahahahahaahahhahahahaahhahaha) [07:26] <3 [09:18] JontheEchidna: The kdegraphics discussion wasn't really in scope for the platform 11 meeting, but we did discuss it a bit. There wasn't really a resolution though as none of us were kdegraphics people === hunger_ is now known as hunger [09:41] hey yo! [09:41] is PIM 4.6 present in the 4.6.4 update? [12:05] sheytan: No. It's separate. [12:13] jussi: Nice review. [12:15] ScottK: yeah, I tend to agree with him about the add widgets thiong. [12:18] Fortunately for me I rarely use it. [12:34] ScottK do i need to uninstall the old pim first? Or will it upgrade automatically? [12:35] sheytan: We don't have it packaged in a regular repository yet. If you have a repository with it enabled, it should upgrade automatically, but be aware that for your data it's a one way migration, so you probably want to back it up first. [12:36] ScottK i was waiting till the stable release of pim, so i don't have any data right now. Didin't used kontact from the installation of natty ;) [12:36] And i think i'll wait till you put it into kubuntu regular ppa :) [12:37] I see. Well the pim 4.4 that shipped with Natty works fine with KDE 4.6. [12:38] We won't ship pim 4.6 in Natty except in some experimental repo as it's far to invasive an upgrade. [12:40] * yofel got is kde svn acc. :D === rdieter is now known as rdieter_work === rdieter_laptop is now known as rdieter [12:50] ScottK so i have to wait till 11.10? [12:50] Well, i think i'll try an experimental repo then :D [12:50] I'd just stick with 4.4 if I were you, but whatever you want. [12:51] at least wait until we have 4.6.0 packaged [12:52] don't think anyone did that yet === ximion1 is now known as ximion [12:53] No. === ximion is now known as ximion1 [13:12] http://www.kubuntu.org/news/kde-release-464 << this is not true, can we hold back announcements until AFTER upstream releases, please? [13:17] sebas: that would be my fault, I assumed that was the case since http://www.kde.org/announcements/announce-4.6.4.php was up [13:17] sebas: Pulled. [13:18] ScottK: thanks :) [13:18] ScottK: thanks [13:18] yofel: it's official when it's on the frontpage and the dot [13:18] k, sorry [13:18] I usually also tweet it as soon as it's out [13:18] np, we could resolve it :) === ximion1 is now known as ximion [13:50] sebas: didn't the announcements have an embargo statement at the very top? [13:50] apachelogger: used to, but I forgot to remove it more often than not, making it useless [13:51] yofel: you might want to try commiting a newline change or something to the www/sites/info stuff, to make sure you can [13:51] hm, good idea [13:51] sebas: ah, yeah, makes sense :) [13:51] sebas: well, lesson learned, won't happen next time [13:51] yofel: thanks =) [13:52] also don't worry too much about it [14:13] OMG I'M FREE FROM EXAMS \o/ [14:14] shadeslayer: good -> get to KDE Telepahty and test \o/ [14:14] whats up for testing? :D [14:15] i mean everything works as of now xD [14:16] * yofel cleanes the wiki for 4.7 [14:16] shadeslayer: AFAIK kdepim still needs merging. [14:16] I'll leave the split tars out though [14:16] I think we should use the split ones that are available. [14:16] Debian will go this way so we may as well get started. [14:17] ScottK: yes, i removed my name from MoM incase anyone wanted to take it up, if no one has merged it yet, i can work on it [14:17] shadeslayer: Great. [14:18] k [14:18] I'll leave the empty and useless tars out of the list though [14:19] yofel: Sure. The big challenge will to make sure we don't miss anything. [14:19] well, I've got all tars lying around here, so I'll use that list [14:20] i shall also start making a blog post [14:20] shadeslayer: BLINK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [14:20] :D [14:20] and blink [14:20] * shadeslayer adds everything to his ToDo [14:21] fabo: I pointed markos at you with your Debian Qt hat on as I think he needs our (Kubuntu) thumb2 patch for armhf porting. http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~kubuntu-packagers/qt/ubuntu/view/head:/debian/patches/kubuntu_22_thumb2_support.diff - Not sure how you'd integrate that in Debian. It's ~easy in Ubuntu/Linaro since we only support v7+thumb2. [14:21] yofel: I was thinking also of maybe stuff they forgot to make a tar for. [14:22] ah, I'll do a rough check, but I don't know every little component myself. If anything I can match it to the components in neon [14:22] ScottK: yes, I chatted with him yesterday night [14:22] ScottK: he's a co-worker ;) [14:23] I'm hoping we get armhf in Ubuntu. [14:23] Also it'd be nice to get KDE ported to armhf before Gnome ... [14:23] ScottK: it's in progress. I'm changing the way to apply patches by arch. it will be easier to apply this kind of patches === ximion1 is now known as ximion [14:23] This should be all that stands between him and kde4libs built on armhf. [14:23] Cool. [14:24] urgh, who wants to redo the dep-graph? [14:24] yofel: I recommend you ask the person with the pile of tarballs laying around. [14:24] LOL [14:25] heh [14:25] can we at least recompress oxygen-icons with xz? 350MB tar is insane [14:26] fabo: Would you be able to help us with testing of Kubuntu arm ISOs? We've a very limited set of people with hardware for that. [14:26] ScottK: sure. I have pandaboard only. [14:27] fabo: Thanks. [14:31] Is https://launchpadlibrarian.net/73314853/buildlog_ubuntu-oneiric-armel.caret_5.6.4~dfsg.1-1_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz a GL/GLES issue? [14:33] apachelogger: You should join #debian-qt-kde so we can't talk about you behind your back there. [14:33] I am not even sure why I wasn't in there *shrug* [14:33] I blame the quassel [14:34] You should complain to the person that made us switch to it. [14:35] Nightrose: y u made us switch? [14:36] Hello, is the newly released KDE PIM packaged? Kmail 2 etc [14:38] not yet I believe [14:39] Ugh [14:40] Kernel upgrades fscked up my system [14:40] droidslayer: don't ugh [14:40] droidslayer: so use an older kernelz? [14:40] "No init found" [14:41] apachelogger: for some reason i cant boot a older kernel [14:41] Same issue [14:41] so either you /sbin/init is kaputt or your initramfs [14:41] droidslayer: get a live sticky and chroot into the system [14:42] then dist-upgrade dpkg --configure -a or whatever that command was [14:42] if that does not help look for your initramfs in /boot and your init in /sbin/init [14:42] one of the two must be broken [14:42] Hmmm ... The only live stick i have is a gnome one [14:42] doesn't matter :P [14:42] Lets see if its amd64 [14:42] Yeah [14:42] use the empire of terminal === AndChat- is now known as droidslayer_ [14:49] @_@ [14:50] bwahahaha [14:50] mount: wrong fs type, bad option, bad superblock on /dev/sda5, ..... [14:53] your system sure know how to give you excuses for not doing any work :P [14:54] lol [14:54] done, have fun folks: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Ninjas/Packaging [14:54] idk what happened [14:54] it booted fine [14:54] and then i accidentally pulled the power cord, had too boot it again and it threw that error at me :/ [14:55] now let's see if I can rework the dep-graph using the neon deps... [14:57] apachelogger: What was that yesterday about crashing on my coach? [14:57] this'll be a mess === matthiask is now known as ximion [14:58] One or more block group descriptor checksums are invalid. Fix? [14:58] @_@ [14:59] at least you don't get a kernel oops as I did with btrfs :P [15:00] w00t [15:00] it mounted now [15:02] txwikinger: a lack of attention leading to me associating the wrong person with your nick [15:03] * apachelogger needed a couch to crash on in berlin for the desktop summit [15:04] yofel: why will it be a mess? [15:04] empathyslayer: stop breaking your system :P [15:04] apachelogger: hehe [15:04] i haven [15:04] i haven't broken it [15:04] who in their right mind pulls the power anyway [15:04] apachelogger: i tripped over it [15:04] ok bbiab [15:05] sebas: btw, do I need to do something, as my Lord Presidentship comes with being release coordinator for kdemm? [15:05] 4.6.4 is out now btw [15:06] apachelogger: don't think so, other than keeping an eye on r-t [15:06] ok [15:06] yofel: ^ now you can publish :P [15:06] yay :) [15:09] does anyone run oneiric and wants to test the network management widget? [15:09] \o/ [15:09] debfx: no :P [15:10] ohh :( [15:10] fs needed a fsck [15:10] shadeslayer: now is the time to upgrade [15:10] and everything is fine [15:11] debfx: isn't the plasmoid in comaptible with new n-m ? [15:12] shadeslayer: the one in oneiric isn't [15:12] the one in neon isn't either [15:12] oh ... [15:12] I've packaged a snapshot of the nm09 branch [15:12] put it into ninjas at least, I'll test gladly [15:17] I'm not sure how to call the version. 0.9~svngit.nm09.20110610.0c83d81 seems a bit long ^^ [15:17] why svn? [15:17] heh [15:18] yofel: before the git migration it was in an svn repository and svn >> git [15:19] urgh, ok [15:20] argh, this is a dep-mess [15:20] maybe I should add a ~ somewhere to leave room for further version changes :D [15:23] first draft of the new dep-graph: http://i.imgur.com/mSckb.png [15:23] now I need to clean this up and re-check it [15:24] and add the missing stuff [15:27] what's the outcome of the great tarball debate? [15:27] from what I know: provide both split and bundled tars [15:29] yofel: who be working on KDEPIM? [15:29] dunno, we wanted shadeslayer to do it before he foobared his system [15:30] me [15:30] i'm working on it [15:30] apachelogger: 4.4.11 tho [15:30] 4.6.0 I am talking about [15:31] oh, shoot, I should be leaving for train [15:31] * apachelogger starts throwing stuff in the suitcase [15:32] apachelogger: First we need to do a 4.4.11 merge from Debian. Then 4.6.0. [15:32] yofel: ok, and will more modules be split? [15:33] it is an organizational nightmare [15:35] It'll be fun. [15:36] Once we get used to it we'll grumble about the horrible old days with those monolithic tarballs that took forever to download/upload. [15:36] hehe [15:36] * ScottK slaps shadeslayer to get back to work. [15:36] ouch [15:36] apachelogger: You're not properly supervising your minion. [15:36] i'm already working [15:37] ScottK: he's busy packing [15:37] OK. [15:37] What does an apachelogger need to pack? swimming suit, toot brush, done. [15:37] How long can that take? [15:37] toot/tooth [15:38] debfx: the next git splits are already sheduled for post-4.7 [15:38] kdeaccessibility and kdeutils IIRC [15:59] apachelogger: btw .... at some point in the past, you said that the screen lock needs special perms ... how do i find out what perms does it need? the only way i could find to trigger it was via DBus [16:08] apachelogger: I'm appointing you Kubuntu burndown chart overlord. === tazz_ is now known as tazz [16:12] should i use libboost-dev or libboost1.42-dev ? [16:12] both are in main [16:15] shadeslayer: For oneiric use 1.46 [16:15] okay [16:16] ScottK: any reason why we aren't using libboost-dev? [16:17] shadeslayer: Yes. For stuff that has other Ubuntu changes it's easier to track what needs rebuilding for the newer boost and it's my view one doesn't want to change boost versions by accident. [16:17] If there are no other changes, then I think using the unversioned one is a good idea. [16:17] ah [16:17] but there *might* be changes [16:18] so it's a good idea to keep the versioned one [16:18] If you get to the end of your merge and that's it, we should just sync. [16:18] nah, loads of other changes [16:19] OK [16:19] shadeslayer: Also keep in mind if some of these changes should go back to Debian. [16:20] well ... we do have kdepim-dev which is added as a extra package [16:21] ScottK: I survived Kansas City [16:21] LaserJock: Welcome back. [16:21] waiting in Salt Lake currently on the way back to MT [16:21] How did you find it? [16:21] a bit hot [16:21] but green and nice [16:22] I think I'll be flying back in a couple weeks [16:22] Great. [16:22] I got myself another interview, this time in Olathe [16:22] That's even closer to where my dad lives. [16:23] there sure are a lot of interstates in Kansas City [16:23] I was glad I brought my GPS [16:23] Heh. [16:23] For a city of its size traffic is not too bad. [16:23] but traffic wasn't bad when I went from Olathe to the airport at 5pm [16:24] being used to (a little bit anyway) to Boston traffic, it's not too bad at all [16:27] shadeslayer: kopete-cryptography build-depends on kdepim-dev but it's not in Debian [16:27] that's probably the reason we have it [16:28] so, here's how the dep-graph looks now: http://i.imgur.com/wftgO.png [16:29] (using neon as reference) [16:32] heh [16:32] yofel: i read that as wtfgo [16:32] debfx: okay [16:32] ^^ [16:37] the dep graph sorta exploded sideways [16:38] well, most packages are really fine with just kdelibs, so they all end up on the same level [16:39] if we remove the packages we don't really care about it gets much smaller :P [16:40] we could remove anything that depends on meta-kde and just say that what's not on the list depends on that [16:41] shadeslayer: suid bit, see kubuntu pkgs [16:41] ScottK: meh. [16:42] most of them probably don't even need the latest kdelibs version [16:42] apachelogger: is there a binary for locking the screen? [16:42] klockscreen or sth [16:43] true [16:43] didrocks: a blog about the technical stuff behind our Qt bug report has made planet KDE btw: http://labs.qt.nokia.com/2011/06/10/type-punning-and-strict-aliasing/ [16:43] interesting read [16:45] JontheEchidna: already read, but thanks :) [16:46] yeah, was an interesting read, will take more care in my own code now about it (especially in unions) [17:22] I've uploaded the nm widget to the experimental ppa [17:22] yofel, JontheEchidna: ^ in case you want to test [17:26] cool, will test [17:27] editing system connections froze plasma-desktop in my vm so it is probably not that stable yet [17:31] hi, is there any ppa which contains KDE PIM 4.6.4? [17:32] I have Kubuntu backports and backports-ppa enabled, but PIM is still old - 4.4 [17:33] pawel_121: KDE PIM 4.6 is in experimental PPA [17:34] and there hasn't been a release of KDE PIM 4.6.4 [17:34] shadeslayer: sorry for mistake [17:36] shadeslayer: will KDE PIM 4.6 go to non experimental PPA? [17:36] pawel_121: yes, as soon as i finish merging KDE PIM 4.4.11 from debian, we will work on getting KDE PIM 4.6 into oneiric [17:36] debfx: works nicely [17:36] and then into natty backports ppa maybe [17:36] WEP/hex key [17:37] ok bbiab [17:37] WEP? :O [17:37] shadeslayer:good to hear, thanks for your help :) [17:37] * yofel will test in a minute (WPA AES :P) [17:38] yeah, we live out in the sticks, and none of our neighbors are technically competent enough to crack WEP :P [17:39] I tried to get my cousing to switch to WPA, until I noticed 3 neighbours had no encryption at all, then I stopped bothering [17:39] *cousin [17:40] yofel: be warned, NM will stop/restart during the upgrade [17:40] It's already stopped here on my netbook, I'll just reboot [17:42] that's what I did [17:42] just to give kded/plasma a chance to restart [17:43] JontheEchidna: did it migrate the old network connections? [17:43] nope [17:44] ScottK: I needed to buy some rum [17:44] travelling without rum is no good [17:49] * apachelogger leaves again as a couple of tunnels are coming up [17:51] debfx: works fine here [17:52]