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| j1mc | hey there :) | 20:58 |
|---|---|---|
| Rocket2DMn | hey guys | 20:59 |
| j1mc | hi connor | 20:59 |
| vtanthropologist | hi all | 21:00 |
| j1mc | hi vtanthropologist | 21:00 |
| j1mc | thanks for joining | 21:00 |
| j1mc | shall we get started? i'm not sure if as many people are going to join this time. | 21:01 |
| vtanthropologist | sure | 21:01 |
| j1mc | i'm ok with waiting a few more minutes, too. | 21:01 |
| Rocket2DMn | are we expecting anybody else? | 21:01 |
| j1mc | phil bull joined #ubuntu-docs not too long ago... he isn't normally on irc, so ... | 21:02 |
| j1mc | i'm hopeful that he'll join | 21:02 |
| vtanthropologist | so who are all those people in the sidebar? do they just stay logged on to this channel permanently? | 21:03 |
| j1mc | mostly, yes | 21:03 |
| j1mc | ok, i guess we'll get started. | 21:03 |
| j1mc | #startmeeting | 21:03 |
| MootBot | Meeting started at 15:03. The chair is j1mc. | 21:03 |
| MootBot | Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE] | 21:03 |
| j1mc | we have an agenda up here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda | 21:04 |
| j1mc | with oneiric planning... i think maybe we should take that to the list. | 21:05 |
| j1mc | i think we'll get better discussion from everyone that way. | 21:05 |
| j1mc | [TOPIC] Oneiric planning | 21:05 |
| MootBot | New Topic: Oneiric planning | 21:05 |
| j1mc | what do you both think? | 21:05 |
| vtanthropologist | I haven't been involved enough to know what's needed | 21:06 |
| vtanthropologist | except ... a lot more | 21:07 |
| j1mc | heya philbull | 21:07 |
| vtanthropologist | hi philbull | 21:07 |
| philbull | hey, sorry, got the wrong channel | 21:07 |
| j1mc | vtanthropologist: fair enough | 21:07 |
| philbull | hi guys | 21:07 |
| Rocket2DMn | hey philbull | 21:07 |
| j1mc | let me see if i can find the link to the wiki page for oneiric planning | 21:07 |
| vtanthropologist | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Tasks/Oneiric | 21:07 |
| Rocket2DMn | j1mc, are there any particular items for oneiric planning we want to discuss right now? | 21:07 |
| vtanthropologist | is that it? | 21:08 |
| j1mc | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Tasks/Oneiric | 21:09 |
| jbicha | hi | 21:10 |
| j1mc | Rocket2DMn: well, we have the wiki topic listed for later | 21:10 |
| j1mc | and we also are going to touch on gnome doc plans | 21:10 |
| j1mc | jbicha: howdy | 21:11 |
| j1mc | i think we can move on for now. we'll touch on the important parts as we progress through other topics. | 21:12 |
| j1mc | [TOPIC] Gnome app doc plans | 21:12 |
| MootBot | New Topic: Gnome app doc plans | 21:12 |
| j1mc | there's actually some news to report on this | 21:12 |
| j1mc | philbull: would you want to talk about what happened in the past week on this? | 21:13 |
| philbull | Sure | 21:13 |
| philbull | From the GNOME perspective? | 21:13 |
| j1mc | that's fine... just the progress that was made | 21:14 |
| j1mc | the work that was done to generate topics for apps | 21:14 |
| philbull | Well, the GNOME docs team held a hackfest at the OpenHelp conference in Cincinnati this past week | 21:14 |
| philbull | The idea is to get as many GNOME applications' help converted over to Mallard/topic-based help as possible for GNOME 3.2 | 21:15 |
| philbull | To that end, we stubbed-out a load of topics for a number of GNOME applications | 21:15 |
| philbull | (I'll be releasing a set of stubs some time this week, hopefully) | 21:15 |
| philbull | People can then take those stub topics, one at a time if they like, and write the content | 21:15 |
| philbull | Given enough people working on them, we can have a lot of the help converted over in very little time | 21:16 |
| philbull | (We managed to do this during the Toronto docs hackfest in March, but for the GNOME desktop help) | 21:16 |
| philbull | I think that's about it - we need to convert lots of apps over, and we will have a basic structure prepared very soon | 21:16 |
| philbull | Ubuntu should help out with this | 21:17 |
| j1mc | Cool. Yes, I think we'll get some help from Ubuntu... | 21:17 |
| Rocket2DMn | Will we be using Gnome version 3.2 in Oneiric? | 21:17 |
| j1mc | ... but we can also get help from Fedora and OpenSUSE, too. | 21:17 |
| j1mc | Rocket2DMn: good question. i would think so... the apps that we have oneiric right now are gtk3 apps. | 21:18 |
| j1mc | we can follow-up, though. | 21:19 |
| j1mc | [ACTION] Check to see if we'll have gnome 3.2 apps or gnome 3.0 apps in oneiric. | 21:19 |
| MootBot | ACTION received: Check to see if we'll have gnome 3.2 apps or gnome 3.0 apps in oneiric. | 21:19 |
| Rocket2DMn | yeah i'm looking at the alpha1 tech overview wiki page, i see that we have switched to gnome 3 which is good news | 21:20 |
| Rocket2DMn | not sure what trouble they will have transitioning Unity, but that's not really our problem except for any changes the user sees | 21:20 |
| j1mc | just one last point on this... i think it will make it easier for new contributors to help with writing docs. the topics will be stubbed-out, so all of the boilerplate will be taken care of. | 21:22 |
| j1mc | that should make things easier for anyone who wants to help. | 21:22 |
| j1mc | but... more info on that later, i guess. | 21:22 |
| j1mc | anything else on this for now? | 21:22 |
| j1mc | [TOPIC] Team strategy document | 21:23 |
| MootBot | New Topic: Team strategy document | 21:23 |
| j1mc | I don't really have an update on this. :) my last commit was a week or so ago | 21:23 |
| j1mc | [TOPIC] Ubuntu help website | 21:24 |
| MootBot | New Topic: Ubuntu help website | 21:24 |
| j1mc | this is kinda interesting. | 21:24 |
| vtanthropologist | I haven't spent much time looking at the content to think about how it could be improved, but I've had to spend a bit of time on converting xml for a browser for another project | 21:25 |
| j1mc | i had a talk with jono late last week, and there seems to be more of a drive to improve help.ubuntu.com, but i'm not sure if they are eager to provide additional help, or what. | 21:25 |
| vtanthropologist | I feel more comfortable about the idea of helping build the site now - if you still need it | 21:25 |
| j1mc | at the close of our talk, he said he was going to send a note to the docs team ML, but maybe he hasn't had a chance to yet. | 21:26 |
| j1mc | vtanthropologist: cool | 21:26 |
| j1mc | for me, the big question is, are we at a point where we can mostly assume that people have access to the web? | 21:26 |
| j1mc | what do you think? | 21:27 |
| Rocket2DMn | j1mc, in most cases people do, but are we planning on adding documentation there that we won't ship as a package? | 21:27 |
| vtanthropologist | Having lived in a developing country and seen anyone with access to a pc having access to the web, I'd say yes | 21:27 |
| philbull | j1mc: In most cases, apart from the very important case where someone can't get their wireless drivers working | 21:27 |
| j1mc | jbicha: what do you think? | 21:28 |
| philbull | I guess people can ask to use a friend's internet connection | 21:28 |
| Rocket2DMn | j1mc, what are we getting at? | 21:28 |
| j1mc | Rocket2DMn: yeah, i think that would be a possibility. | 21:28 |
| vtanthropologist | I agree with philbull that we need to cater for wireless outages, but in that case most people still have windows as a fallback | 21:29 |
| j1mc | Rocket2DMn: i was thinking of something like http://support.mozilla.com | 21:29 |
| j1mc | and having a subset of those docs on-disk | 21:29 |
| philbull | Another issue is translation | 21:29 |
| j1mc | there is also http://support.mozilla.com/es/home | 21:30 |
| j1mc | i don't know about this, either ... i'm not sure if this is the right way to go, and i don't want people to be driven into anything. | 21:31 |
| Rocket2DMn | It would be nice to have a portal like that to different documentation sources | 21:32 |
| Rocket2DMn | i'm not sure we can get away from shipping docs at this time, we don't even have a framework for posting translated docs online yet | 21:32 |
| * j1mc nods | 21:32 | |
| Rocket2DMn | it was brought up in earlier discussions about doing that though, which i think would be great | 21:32 |
| Rocket2DMn | if that proves to be effective and maintainable, we might be able to look at moving away from shipping docs in 12.04 | 21:33 |
| j1mc | i'm not sure what else to say on it for now... i think that having a stronger, more interactive web presence for help would be good, and it sounds like people are agreeable to it | 21:36 |
| j1mc | it's just a matter of criteria and resources | 21:36 |
| j1mc | other thoughts on this for now? | 21:37 |
| philbull | The Mozilla offering looks good (SuMo) | 21:37 |
| philbull | and it would be nice to have the community wiki docs and official docs available from the same interface | 21:37 |
| j1mc | one thing about SuMo is that they release weekly | 21:38 |
| j1mc | so it's a bit of a moving target. although it's open source, i don't know of any other groups that are using it. | 21:38 |
| j1mc | i wish we could have a hackfest to work together on this. | 21:39 |
| j1mc | philbull: i'll put our notes together and get them out on the mailing list. | 21:40 |
| philbull | great, thanks j1mc | 21:40 |
| j1mc | ok... next topic | 21:40 |
| j1mc | [TOPIC] server docs | 21:40 |
| MootBot | New Topic: server docs | 21:40 |
| j1mc | the server team had a meeting where they asked about the update to the server docs | 21:41 |
| j1mc | adam sommer and the server group are interested in the format similar to docs.openstack.org | 21:41 |
| j1mc | and i'm going to get a test build together this week. | 21:41 |
| j1mc | aside from getting confirmation from the server group, nothing too knew to report on that for now, though. | 21:42 |
| j1mc | s/knew/new | 21:42 |
| j1mc | [TOPIC] docs team blog | 21:42 |
| MootBot | New Topic: docs team blog | 21:42 |
| vtanthropologist | are you talking about having two different sites? a SuMo-like help site and a openstack-like docs site? isn't that overkill? | 21:43 |
| vtanthropologist | sorry. I missed the topic change | 21:43 |
| j1mc | vtanthropologist: good point. as a short-term thing, i think having the server docs in a nicer format would be good. | 21:44 |
| j1mc | if we have the build tools available, and we don't have to change the server docs too much, i think it's ok to go ahead with at least a draft attempt at the new layout. | 21:44 |
| vtanthropologist | so SuMo is a long-term vision? but you're talking about 12.04 | 21:45 |
| j1mc | i think so | 21:45 |
| j1mc | right now, we don't have much in the line of support for web resources, so ... that will take more time to sort out, i think. | 21:46 |
| vtanthropologist | it seems like too many conflicting focuses to me | 21:47 |
| j1mc | it's a lot of work, yes | 21:47 |
| j1mc | what do others think? | 21:47 |
| charlie-tca | Can I throw my two cents in? | 21:48 |
| Rocket2DMn | i think i got confused on our topics - are we talking about the blog or about a new web interface to the docs? | 21:48 |
| j1mc | Rocket2DMn: we went back to the web-talk, sorry about that | 21:49 |
| j1mc | charlie-tca: sure | 21:49 |
| charlie-tca | I have been using Ubuntu/Xubuntu for about 6 years now. | 21:49 |
| charlie-tca | I have been helping with support in IRC for about three | 21:49 |
| charlie-tca | I do think having the docs on the web would be at least as helpful as on the CD, since most people will not look for docs anywhere but online | 21:50 |
| charlie-tca | The first thought in today's world is "google" | 21:50 |
| charlie-tca | and google seldom says "look at your computer" | 21:51 |
| j1mc | :) | 21:51 |
| charlie-tca | Even when wireless fails, people do not look at their installed system for docs. | 21:51 |
| charlie-tca | Thanks for letting me say it. | 21:51 |
| j1mc | thanks, charlie-tca | 21:52 |
| j1mc | do other people think the short-term look at redoing server-docs, but progressing toward long-term getting the web-help in shape would be a good direction to go? | 21:53 |
| j1mc | or is it a conflict of sorts? | 21:53 |
| j1mc | i know it's a lot of work. | 21:53 |
| Rocket2DMn | i dont thikn that conflicts, the serverguide is already online-only | 21:53 |
| Rocket2DMn | but i think we need to continue shipping desktop docs for now | 21:54 |
| Rocket2DMn | people still report bugs about using the desktop help, so people are definitely using it | 21:54 |
| j1mc | :) | 21:54 |
| j1mc | others? | 21:54 |
| Rocket2DMn | (on their systems that is) | 21:54 |
| vtanthropologist | if the server docs will be minimal effort, it's probably ok, but I thought it would make more sense to put effort into one site and build it out for the other components as we can | 21:54 |
| * j1mc nods... | 21:55 | |
| j1mc | i'll get to work on the server docs, and we'll start considering options for web help. | 21:55 |
| j1mc | i think this level of agreement is ok for this meeting though. | 21:56 |
| j1mc | [AGREED] jim to get to work on the server docs, and we'll start considering options for web help. | 21:56 |
| MootBot | AGREED received: jim to get to work on the server docs, and we'll start considering options for web help. | 21:56 |
| ScottK | Please don't break the existing server guide. It's pretty good. | 21:56 |
| j1mc | [TOPIC] docs team blog - for real | 21:56 |
| MootBot | New Topic: docs team blog - for real | 21:56 |
| j1mc | ScottK: it'll stay in the same format. same docbook. | 21:56 |
| j1mc | ScottK: we'll talk more later | 21:57 |
| j1mc | mdke emailed canonical RT about docs.ubuntu.com | 21:57 |
| j1mc | but we haven't heard back | 21:57 |
| j1mc | any comments on the emails that went out about this? | 21:58 |
| Rocket2DMn | do other teams have a dedicated blog? | 21:58 |
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| j1mc | i know that the server team does, and i think a11y does, too. | 21:59 |
| j1mc | there might be more | 21:59 |
| j1mc | design team... | 21:59 |
| j1mc | perhaps talk on this more once we hear back from RT? | 22:01 |
| stgraber | edubuntu does as well. QA too, release team too, ... | 22:01 |
| j1mc | ok... we'll wait on this a bit. | 22:02 |
| j1mc | i know we're just over our hour, but can we still talk about the wiki? | 22:02 |
| Rocket2DMn | i'm available if other teams dont have this time slot reserved | 22:03 |
| j1mc | ok - we'll try here... | 22:03 |
| j1mc | [TOPIC] Wiki cleanup | 22:03 |
| MootBot | New Topic: Wiki cleanup | 22:03 |
| j1mc | Rocket2DMn: you had some good comments on the ML about this. | 22:04 |
| j1mc | have you had additional thoughts about it? anything you'd like to add? | 22:05 |
| Rocket2DMn | i've spent some time over the last couple of weeks deleting a lot of old wiki pages | 22:05 |
| Rocket2DMn | we could use help updating pages and/or tagging pages that need work or just need to be outright removed | 22:05 |
| j1mc | i think that would be a good start | 22:06 |
| Rocket2DMn | I have a question though | 22:07 |
| j1mc | would anyone be available to get the word out about this request? | 22:07 |
| j1mc | sure | 22:07 |
| Rocket2DMn | some pages that are translated into other languages are marked for deletion | 22:07 |
| Rocket2DMn | Do we support translated pages on the community docs? | 22:07 |
| Rocket2DMn | I don't think it's the correct place for them, but I've never gone out of my way to manage them | 22:07 |
| j1mc | good question... i would guess that the language coverage is pretty spotty, too. | 22:08 |
| Rocket2DMn | it is, I'm not sure how well the pages are maintained either | 22:08 |
| j1mc | is there an example page that you could point to? | 22:09 |
| j1mc | how do you know if a page is translated? | 22:09 |
| Rocket2DMn | https://help.ubuntu.com/community/NlBluetooth | 22:09 |
| Rocket2DMn | https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RussianDocumentation | 22:09 |
| Rocket2DMn | etc | 22:09 |
| j1mc | thanks, Rocket2DMn. | 22:10 |
| j1mc | should we bring these up on the ML? | 22:11 |
| j1mc | i would feel bad about just deleting them, but we have no idea what they say, and i doubt they receive much of a review. | 22:11 |
| j1mc | or i have no way of knowing if they are reviewed | 22:11 |
| Rocket2DMn | ML is fine with me | 22:12 |
| vtanthropologist | can a deleted page be restored or do you delete the history too? | 22:13 |
| Rocket2DMn | they can be restored | 22:13 |
| j1mc | Rocket2DMn: do you have a blog on the planet? can you post about how to tag pages as outdated / needing review / recommended for deletion, or just point people to those pages on the wiki that describe how to do it? | 22:13 |
| Rocket2DMn | j1mc, i don't keep a blog | 22:14 |
| vtanthropologist | ok, so worst case if you don't get a response on the ML, deleting it should bring anyone that's been using it out of the woodwork | 22:14 |
| j1mc | ok... i can blog about it. | 22:15 |
| Rocket2DMn | vtanthropologist, if they are subscribed to the page, they should get an email | 22:15 |
| j1mc | Rocket2DMn: could you send a note out to the ML about the translations? | 22:15 |
| j1mc | (the wiki pages that have been translated) | 22:16 |
| Rocket2DMn | yeah | 22:16 |
| j1mc | ok. :) | 22:16 |
| j1mc | [ACTION] connor to send note to the ML about translated wiki pages | 22:17 |
| MootBot | ACTION received: connor to send note to the ML about translated wiki pages | 22:17 |
| j1mc | [ACTION] jim to blog about tagging wiki pages | 22:17 |
| MootBot | ACTION received: jim to blog about tagging wiki pages | 22:17 |
| j1mc | anything else for today? | 22:17 |
| Rocket2DMn | i dont have anything | 22:17 |
| vtanthropologist | nor me | 22:18 |
| j1mc | okies... thanks for joining all. :) | 22:18 |
| j1mc | enjoy the rest of your sunday, wherever that may be. | 22:18 |
| j1mc | #endmeeting | 22:18 |
| MootBot | Meeting finished at 16:18. | 22:18 |
| vtanthropologist | Sunday finished 7 hours ago, but there's lots of Monday left to enjoy | 22:18 |
| vtanthropologist | :) | 22:19 |
| j1mc | i'll send the minutes and log to the ML | 22:19 |
| j1mc | vtanthropologist: i forget that you're in Australia. what part? | 22:19 |
| Rocket2DMn | thanks j1mc | 22:19 |
| vtanthropologist | Sydney | 22:19 |
| j1mc | cool. :) | 22:19 |
| vtanthropologist | I take it you're in the US | 22:19 |
| vtanthropologist | ? | 22:19 |
| j1mc | i just met someone from red hat in brisbane last week. | 22:19 |
| j1mc | but i heard brisbane is kind of a smaller city | 22:19 |
| j1mc | yes, i'm in the states | 22:20 |
| vtanthropologist | yep. we call it Brisvagas | 22:20 |
| vtanthropologist | which part of the US? | 22:20 |
| j1mc | central... chicago area. | 22:21 |
| vtanthropologist | I liked Chicago. I didn't get out of the city though | 22:21 |
| j1mc | vtanthropologist: are there certain doc areas where you might want to write some docs? any certain apps or topics areas? | 22:21 |
| vtanthropologist | I'd like to give it a go. I was working with philbull on writing a better installation guide as pdf, but that lost momentum | 22:22 |
| vtanthropologist | I find it difficult to know where things are up to in the docs systems and I wonder if I know the apps well enough to write docs | 22:23 |
| j1mc | ok. we will have a better list of apps that need help soon. | 22:23 |
| vtanthropologist | I use the basics a lot, but the basic docs already seem to be covered | 22:23 |
| vtanthropologist | that's why I thought I could help with building the web site | 22:24 |
| j1mc | yeah, when we were brainstorming docs for seahorse... we were asking lots of questions like, "what is this?" "what does this do?" | 22:24 |
| j1mc | editing and review can be a good place to get situated, too. | 22:24 |
| j1mc | if you aren't sure where things are in the "docs ecosystem" | 22:24 |
| vtanthropologist | again, I can't find what needs reviewing. | 22:24 |
| vtanthropologist | exactly | 22:25 |
| j1mc | ok - i can write up something about that, too. that is good to know. | 22:25 |
| j1mc | i'm going to head-out... thanks for your input, vtanthropologist | 22:25 |
| vtanthropologist | I think there needs to be a much better onboarding process for interested newbies | 22:25 |
| vtanthropologist | yep. have a good day | 22:26 |
| j1mc | thanks again. ttyl | 22:26 |
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