[20:58] <j1mc> hey there :)
[20:59] <Rocket2DMn> hey guys
[20:59] <j1mc> hi connor
[21:00] <vtanthropologist> hi all
[21:00] <j1mc> hi vtanthropologist
[21:00] <j1mc> thanks for joining
[21:01] <j1mc> shall we get started? i'm not sure if as many people are going to join this time.
[21:01] <vtanthropologist> sure
[21:01] <j1mc> i'm ok with waiting a few more minutes, too.
[21:01] <Rocket2DMn> are we expecting anybody else?
[21:02] <j1mc> phil bull joined #ubuntu-docs not too long ago... he isn't normally on irc, so ...
[21:02] <j1mc> i'm hopeful that he'll join
[21:03] <vtanthropologist> so who are all those people in the sidebar?  do they just stay logged on to this channel permanently?
[21:03] <j1mc> mostly, yes
[21:03] <j1mc> ok, i guess we'll get started.
[21:03] <j1mc> #startmeeting
[21:03] <MootBot> Meeting started at 15:03. The chair is j1mc.
[21:03] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[21:04] <j1mc> we have an agenda up here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda
[21:05] <j1mc> with oneiric planning... i think maybe we should take that to the list.
[21:05] <j1mc> i think we'll get better discussion from everyone that way.
[21:05] <j1mc> [TOPIC] Oneiric planning
[21:05] <MootBot> New Topic:  Oneiric planning
[21:05] <j1mc> what do you both think?
[21:06] <vtanthropologist> I haven't been involved enough to know what's needed
[21:07] <vtanthropologist> except ... a lot more
[21:07] <j1mc> heya philbull
[21:07] <vtanthropologist> hi philbull
[21:07] <philbull> hey, sorry, got the wrong channel
[21:07] <j1mc> vtanthropologist: fair enough
[21:07] <philbull> hi guys
[21:07] <Rocket2DMn> hey philbull
[21:07] <j1mc> let me see if i can find the link to the wiki page for oneiric planning
[21:07] <vtanthropologist> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Tasks/Oneiric
[21:07] <Rocket2DMn> j1mc, are there any particular items for oneiric planning we want to discuss right now?
[21:08] <vtanthropologist> is that it?
[21:09] <j1mc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Tasks/Oneiric
[21:10] <jbicha> hi
[21:10] <j1mc> Rocket2DMn: well, we have the wiki topic listed for later
[21:10] <j1mc> and we also are going to touch on gnome doc plans
[21:11] <j1mc> jbicha: howdy
[21:12] <j1mc> i think we can move on for now. we'll touch on the important parts as we progress through other topics.
[21:12] <j1mc> [TOPIC] Gnome app doc plans
[21:12] <MootBot> New Topic:  Gnome app doc plans
[21:12] <j1mc> there's actually some news to report on this
[21:13] <j1mc> philbull: would you want to talk about what happened in the past week on this?
[21:13] <philbull> Sure
[21:13] <philbull> From the GNOME perspective?
[21:14] <j1mc> that's fine... just the progress that was made
[21:14] <j1mc> the work that was done to generate topics for apps
[21:14] <philbull> Well, the GNOME docs team held a hackfest at the OpenHelp conference in Cincinnati this past week
[21:15] <philbull> The idea is to get as many GNOME applications' help converted over to Mallard/topic-based help as possible for GNOME 3.2
[21:15] <philbull> To that end, we stubbed-out a load of topics for a number of GNOME applications
[21:15] <philbull> (I'll be releasing a set of stubs some time this week, hopefully)
[21:15] <philbull> People can then take those stub topics, one at a time if they like, and write the content
[21:16] <philbull> Given enough people working on them, we can have a lot of the help converted over in very little time
[21:16] <philbull> (We managed to do this during the Toronto docs hackfest in March, but for the GNOME desktop help)
[21:16] <philbull> I think that's about it - we need to convert lots of apps over, and we will have a basic structure prepared very soon
[21:17] <philbull> Ubuntu should help out with this
[21:17] <j1mc> Cool.  Yes, I think we'll get some help from Ubuntu...
[21:17] <Rocket2DMn> Will we be using Gnome version 3.2 in Oneiric?
[21:17] <j1mc> ... but we can also get help from Fedora and OpenSUSE, too.
[21:18] <j1mc> Rocket2DMn: good question. i would think so... the apps that we have oneiric right now are gtk3 apps.
[21:19] <j1mc> we can follow-up, though.
[21:19] <j1mc> [ACTION] Check to see if we'll have gnome 3.2 apps or gnome 3.0 apps in oneiric.
[21:19] <MootBot> ACTION received:  Check to see if we'll have gnome 3.2 apps or gnome 3.0 apps in oneiric.
[21:20] <Rocket2DMn> yeah i'm looking at the alpha1 tech overview wiki page, i see that we have switched to gnome 3 which is good news
[21:20] <Rocket2DMn> not sure what trouble they will have transitioning Unity, but that's not really our problem except for any changes the user sees
[21:22] <j1mc> just one last point on this... i think it will make it easier for new contributors to help with writing docs. the topics will be stubbed-out, so all of the boilerplate will be taken care of.
[21:22] <j1mc> that should make things easier for anyone who wants to help.
[21:22] <j1mc> but... more info on that later, i guess.
[21:22] <j1mc> anything else on this for now?
[21:23] <j1mc> [TOPIC] Team strategy document
[21:23] <MootBot> New Topic:  Team strategy document
[21:23] <j1mc> I don't really have an update on this. :) my last commit was a week or so ago
[21:24] <j1mc> [TOPIC] Ubuntu help website
[21:24] <MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu help website
[21:24] <j1mc> this is kinda interesting.
[21:25] <vtanthropologist> I haven't spent much time looking at the content to think about how it could be improved, but I've had to spend a bit of time on converting xml for a browser for another project
[21:25] <j1mc> i had a talk with jono late last week, and there seems to be more of a drive to improve help.ubuntu.com, but i'm not sure if they are eager to provide additional help, or what.
[21:25] <vtanthropologist> I feel more comfortable about the idea of helping build the site now - if you still need it
[21:26] <j1mc> at the close of our talk, he said he was going to send a note to the docs team ML, but maybe he hasn't had a chance to yet.
[21:26] <j1mc> vtanthropologist: cool
[21:26] <j1mc> for me, the big question is, are we at a point where we can mostly assume that people have access to the web?
[21:27] <j1mc> what do you think?
[21:27] <Rocket2DMn> j1mc, in most cases people do, but are we planning on adding documentation there that we won't ship as a package?
[21:27] <vtanthropologist> Having lived in a developing country and seen anyone with access to a pc having access to the web, I'd say yes
[21:27] <philbull> j1mc: In most cases, apart from the very important case where someone can't get their wireless drivers working
[21:28] <j1mc> jbicha: what do you think?
[21:28] <philbull> I guess people can ask to use a friend's internet connection
[21:28] <Rocket2DMn> j1mc, what are we getting at?
[21:28] <j1mc> Rocket2DMn: yeah, i think that would be a possibility.
[21:29] <vtanthropologist> I agree with philbull that we need to cater for wireless outages, but in that case most people still have windows as a fallback
[21:29] <j1mc> Rocket2DMn: i was thinking of something like http://support.mozilla.com
[21:29] <j1mc> and having a subset of those docs on-disk
[21:29] <philbull> Another issue is translation
[21:30] <j1mc> there is also http://support.mozilla.com/es/home
[21:31] <j1mc> i don't know about this, either ... i'm not sure if this is the right way to go, and i don't want people to be driven into anything.
[21:32] <Rocket2DMn> It would be nice to have a portal like that to different documentation sources
[21:32] <Rocket2DMn> i'm not sure we can get away from shipping docs at this time, we don't even have a framework for posting translated docs online yet
[21:32]  * j1mc nods
[21:32] <Rocket2DMn> it was brought up in earlier discussions about doing that though, which i think would be great
[21:33] <Rocket2DMn> if that proves to be effective and maintainable, we might be able to look at moving away from shipping docs in 12.04
[21:36] <j1mc> i'm not sure what else to say on it for now... i think that having a stronger, more interactive web presence for help would be good, and it sounds like people are agreeable to it
[21:36] <j1mc> it's just a matter of criteria and resources
[21:37] <j1mc> other thoughts on this for now?
[21:37] <philbull> The Mozilla offering looks good (SuMo)
[21:37] <philbull> and it would be nice to have the community wiki docs and official docs available from the same interface
[21:38] <j1mc> one thing about SuMo is that they release weekly
[21:38] <j1mc> so it's a bit of a moving target. although it's open source, i don't know of any other groups that are using it.
[21:39] <j1mc> i wish we could have a hackfest to work together on this.
[21:40] <j1mc> philbull: i'll put our notes together and get them out on the mailing list.
[21:40] <philbull> great, thanks j1mc
[21:40] <j1mc> ok... next topic
[21:40] <j1mc> [TOPIC] server docs
[21:40] <MootBot> New Topic:  server docs
[21:41] <j1mc> the server team had a meeting where they asked about the update to the server docs
[21:41] <j1mc> adam sommer and the server group are interested in the format similar to docs.openstack.org
[21:41] <j1mc> and i'm going to get a test build together this week.
[21:42] <j1mc> aside from getting confirmation from the server group, nothing too knew to report on that for now, though.
[21:42] <j1mc> s/knew/new
[21:42] <j1mc> [TOPIC] docs team blog
[21:42] <MootBot> New Topic:  docs team blog
[21:43] <vtanthropologist> are you talking about having two different sites?  a SuMo-like help site and a openstack-like docs site?  isn't that overkill?
[21:43] <vtanthropologist> sorry. I missed the topic change
[21:44] <j1mc> vtanthropologist: good point. as a short-term thing, i think having the server docs in a nicer format would be good.
[21:44] <j1mc> if we have the build tools available, and we don't have to change the server docs too much, i think it's ok to go ahead with at least a draft attempt at the new layout.
[21:45] <vtanthropologist> so SuMo is a long-term vision?  but you're talking about 12.04
[21:45] <j1mc> i think so
[21:46] <j1mc> right now, we don't have much in the line of support for web resources, so ... that will take more time to sort out, i think.
[21:47] <vtanthropologist> it seems like too many conflicting focuses to me
[21:47] <j1mc> it's a lot of work, yes
[21:47] <j1mc> what do others think?
[21:48] <charlie-tca> Can I throw my two cents in?
[21:48] <Rocket2DMn> i think i got confused on our topics - are we talking about the blog or about a new web interface to the docs?
[21:49] <j1mc> Rocket2DMn: we went back to the web-talk, sorry about that
[21:49] <j1mc> charlie-tca: sure
[21:49] <charlie-tca> I have been using Ubuntu/Xubuntu for about 6 years now.
[21:49] <charlie-tca> I have been helping with support in IRC for about three
[21:50] <charlie-tca> I do think having the docs on the web would be at least as helpful as on the CD, since most people will not look for docs anywhere but online
[21:50] <charlie-tca> The first thought in today's world is "google"
[21:51] <charlie-tca> and google seldom says "look at your computer"
[21:51] <j1mc> :)
[21:51] <charlie-tca> Even when wireless fails, people do not look at their installed system for docs.
[21:51] <charlie-tca> Thanks for letting me say it.
[21:52] <j1mc> thanks, charlie-tca
[21:53] <j1mc> do other people think the short-term look at redoing server-docs, but progressing toward long-term getting the web-help in shape would be a good direction to go?
[21:53] <j1mc> or is it a conflict of sorts?
[21:53] <j1mc> i know it's a lot of work.
[21:53] <Rocket2DMn> i dont thikn that conflicts, the serverguide is already online-only
[21:54] <Rocket2DMn> but i think we need to continue shipping desktop docs for now
[21:54] <Rocket2DMn> people still report bugs about using the desktop help, so people are definitely using it
[21:54] <j1mc> :)
[21:54] <j1mc> others?
[21:54] <Rocket2DMn> (on their systems that is)
[21:54] <vtanthropologist> if the server docs will be minimal effort, it's probably ok, but I thought it would make more sense to put effort into one site and build it out for the other components as we can
[21:55]  * j1mc nods... 
[21:55] <j1mc> i'll get to work on the server docs, and we'll start considering options for web help.
[21:56] <j1mc> i think this level of agreement is ok for this meeting though.
[21:56] <j1mc> [AGREED] jim to get to work on the server docs, and we'll start considering options for web help.
[21:56] <MootBot> AGREED received:  jim to get to work on the server docs, and we'll start considering options for web help.
[21:56] <ScottK> Please don't break the existing server guide.  It's pretty good.
[21:56] <j1mc> [TOPIC] docs team blog - for real
[21:56] <MootBot> New Topic:  docs team blog - for real
[21:56] <j1mc> ScottK: it'll stay in the same format. same docbook.
[21:57] <j1mc> ScottK: we'll talk more later
[21:57] <j1mc> mdke emailed canonical RT about docs.ubuntu.com
[21:57] <j1mc> but we haven't heard back
[21:58] <j1mc> any comments on the emails that went out about this?
[21:58] <Rocket2DMn> do other teams have a dedicated blog?
[21:59] <j1mc> i know that the server team does, and i think a11y does, too.
[21:59] <j1mc> there might be more
[21:59] <j1mc> design team...
[22:01] <j1mc> perhaps talk on this more once we hear back from RT?
[22:01] <stgraber> edubuntu does as well. QA too, release team too, ...
[22:02] <j1mc> ok... we'll wait on this a bit.
[22:02] <j1mc> i know we're just over our hour, but can we still talk about the wiki?
[22:03] <Rocket2DMn> i'm available if other teams dont have this time slot reserved
[22:03] <j1mc> ok - we'll try here...
[22:03] <j1mc> [TOPIC] Wiki cleanup
[22:03] <MootBot> New Topic:  Wiki cleanup
[22:04] <j1mc> Rocket2DMn: you had some good comments on the ML about this.
[22:05] <j1mc> have you had additional thoughts about it? anything you'd like to add?
[22:05] <Rocket2DMn> i've spent some time over the last couple of weeks deleting a lot of old wiki pages
[22:05] <Rocket2DMn> we could use help updating pages and/or tagging pages that need work or just need to be outright removed
[22:06] <j1mc> i think that would be a good start
[22:07] <Rocket2DMn> I have a question though
[22:07] <j1mc> would anyone be available to get the word out about this request?
[22:07] <j1mc> sure
[22:07] <Rocket2DMn> some pages that are translated into other languages are marked for deletion
[22:07] <Rocket2DMn> Do we support translated pages on the community docs?
[22:07] <Rocket2DMn> I don't think it's the correct place for them, but I've never gone out of my way to manage them
[22:08] <j1mc> good question... i would guess that the language coverage is pretty spotty, too.
[22:08] <Rocket2DMn> it is, I'm not sure how well the pages are maintained either
[22:09] <j1mc> is there an example page that you could point to?
[22:09] <j1mc> how do you know if a page is translated?
[22:09] <Rocket2DMn> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/NlBluetooth
[22:09] <Rocket2DMn> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RussianDocumentation
[22:09] <Rocket2DMn> etc
[22:10] <j1mc> thanks, Rocket2DMn.
[22:11] <j1mc> should we bring these up on the ML?
[22:11] <j1mc> i would feel bad about just deleting them, but we have no idea what they say, and i doubt they receive much of a review.
[22:11] <j1mc> or i have no way of knowing if they are reviewed
[22:12] <Rocket2DMn> ML is fine with me
[22:13] <vtanthropologist> can a deleted page be restored or do you delete the history too?
[22:13] <Rocket2DMn> they can be restored
[22:13] <j1mc> Rocket2DMn: do you have a blog on the planet? can you post about how to tag pages as outdated / needing review / recommended for deletion, or just point people to those pages on the wiki that describe how to do it?
[22:14] <Rocket2DMn> j1mc, i don't keep a blog
[22:14] <vtanthropologist> ok, so worst case if you don't get a response on the ML, deleting it should bring anyone that's been using it out of the woodwork
[22:15] <j1mc> ok... i can blog about it.
[22:15] <Rocket2DMn> vtanthropologist, if they are subscribed to the page, they should get an email
[22:15] <j1mc> Rocket2DMn: could you send a note out to the ML about the translations?
[22:16] <j1mc> (the wiki pages that have been translated)
[22:16] <Rocket2DMn> yeah
[22:16] <j1mc> ok. :)
[22:17] <j1mc> [ACTION] connor to send note to the ML about translated wiki pages
[22:17] <MootBot> ACTION received:  connor to send note to the ML about translated wiki pages
[22:17] <j1mc> [ACTION] jim to blog about tagging wiki pages
[22:17] <MootBot> ACTION received:  jim to blog about tagging wiki pages
[22:17] <j1mc> anything else for today?
[22:17] <Rocket2DMn> i dont have anything
[22:18] <vtanthropologist> nor me
[22:18] <j1mc> okies... thanks for joining all.  :)
[22:18] <j1mc> enjoy the rest of your sunday, wherever that may be.
[22:18] <j1mc> #endmeeting
[22:18] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 16:18.
[22:18] <vtanthropologist> Sunday finished 7 hours ago, but there's lots of Monday left to enjoy
[22:19] <vtanthropologist> :)
[22:19] <j1mc> i'll send the minutes and log to the ML
[22:19] <j1mc> vtanthropologist: i forget that you're in Australia. what part?
[22:19] <Rocket2DMn> thanks j1mc
[22:19] <vtanthropologist> Sydney
[22:19] <j1mc> cool. :)
[22:19] <vtanthropologist> I take it you're in the US
[22:19] <vtanthropologist> ?
[22:19] <j1mc> i just met someone from red hat in brisbane last week.
[22:19] <j1mc> but i heard brisbane is kind of a smaller city
[22:20] <j1mc> yes, i'm in the states
[22:20] <vtanthropologist> yep.  we call it Brisvagas
[22:20] <vtanthropologist> which part of the US?
[22:21] <j1mc> central... chicago area.
[22:21] <vtanthropologist> I liked Chicago.  I didn't get out of the city though
[22:21] <j1mc> vtanthropologist: are there certain doc areas where you might want to write some docs? any certain apps or topics areas?
[22:22] <vtanthropologist> I'd like to give it a go.  I was working with philbull on writing a better installation guide as pdf, but that lost momentum
[22:23] <vtanthropologist> I find it difficult to know where things are up to in the docs systems and I wonder if I know the apps well enough to write docs
[22:23] <j1mc> ok. we will have a better list of apps that need help soon.
[22:23] <vtanthropologist> I use the basics a lot, but the basic docs already seem to be covered
[22:24] <vtanthropologist> that's why I thought I could help with building the web site
[22:24] <j1mc> yeah, when we were brainstorming docs for seahorse... we were asking lots of questions like, "what is this?" "what does this do?"
[22:24] <j1mc> editing and review can be a good place to get situated, too.
[22:24] <j1mc> if you aren't sure where things are in the "docs ecosystem"
[22:24] <vtanthropologist> again, I can't find what needs reviewing.
[22:25] <vtanthropologist> exactly
[22:25] <j1mc> ok - i can write up something about that, too. that is good to know.
[22:25] <j1mc> i'm going to head-out... thanks for your input, vtanthropologist
[22:25] <vtanthropologist> I think there needs to be a much better onboarding process for interested newbies
[22:26] <vtanthropologist> yep.  have a good day
[22:26] <j1mc> thanks again.  ttyl