=== JanC is now known as Guest4037 === mc44_ is now known as mc44 === maxb_ is now known as maxb === lifeless_ is now known as lifeless === valorie_ is now known as valorie === infinity1 is now known as infinity === pleia2_ is now known as pleia2 === yofel_ is now known as yofel === Quintasan_ is now known as Quintasan [20:58] hey there :) [20:59] hey guys [20:59] hi connor [21:00] hi all [21:00] hi vtanthropologist [21:00] thanks for joining [21:01] shall we get started? i'm not sure if as many people are going to join this time. [21:01] sure [21:01] i'm ok with waiting a few more minutes, too. [21:01] are we expecting anybody else? [21:02] phil bull joined #ubuntu-docs not too long ago... he isn't normally on irc, so ... [21:02] i'm hopeful that he'll join [21:03] so who are all those people in the sidebar? do they just stay logged on to this channel permanently? [21:03] mostly, yes [21:03] ok, i guess we'll get started. [21:03] #startmeeting [21:03] Meeting started at 15:03. The chair is j1mc. [21:03] Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE] [21:04] we have an agenda up here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda [21:05] with oneiric planning... i think maybe we should take that to the list. [21:05] i think we'll get better discussion from everyone that way. [21:05] [TOPIC] Oneiric planning [21:05] New Topic: Oneiric planning [21:05] what do you both think? [21:06] I haven't been involved enough to know what's needed [21:07] except ... a lot more [21:07] heya philbull [21:07] hi philbull [21:07] hey, sorry, got the wrong channel [21:07] vtanthropologist: fair enough [21:07] hi guys [21:07] hey philbull [21:07] let me see if i can find the link to the wiki page for oneiric planning [21:07] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Tasks/Oneiric [21:07] j1mc, are there any particular items for oneiric planning we want to discuss right now? [21:08] is that it? [21:09] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Tasks/Oneiric [21:10] hi [21:10] Rocket2DMn: well, we have the wiki topic listed for later [21:10] and we also are going to touch on gnome doc plans [21:11] jbicha: howdy [21:12] i think we can move on for now. we'll touch on the important parts as we progress through other topics. [21:12] [TOPIC] Gnome app doc plans [21:12] New Topic: Gnome app doc plans [21:12] there's actually some news to report on this [21:13] philbull: would you want to talk about what happened in the past week on this? [21:13] Sure [21:13] From the GNOME perspective? [21:14] that's fine... just the progress that was made [21:14] the work that was done to generate topics for apps [21:14] Well, the GNOME docs team held a hackfest at the OpenHelp conference in Cincinnati this past week [21:15] The idea is to get as many GNOME applications' help converted over to Mallard/topic-based help as possible for GNOME 3.2 [21:15] To that end, we stubbed-out a load of topics for a number of GNOME applications [21:15] (I'll be releasing a set of stubs some time this week, hopefully) [21:15] People can then take those stub topics, one at a time if they like, and write the content [21:16] Given enough people working on them, we can have a lot of the help converted over in very little time [21:16] (We managed to do this during the Toronto docs hackfest in March, but for the GNOME desktop help) [21:16] I think that's about it - we need to convert lots of apps over, and we will have a basic structure prepared very soon [21:17] Ubuntu should help out with this [21:17] Cool. Yes, I think we'll get some help from Ubuntu... [21:17] Will we be using Gnome version 3.2 in Oneiric? [21:17] ... but we can also get help from Fedora and OpenSUSE, too. [21:18] Rocket2DMn: good question. i would think so... the apps that we have oneiric right now are gtk3 apps. [21:19] we can follow-up, though. [21:19] [ACTION] Check to see if we'll have gnome 3.2 apps or gnome 3.0 apps in oneiric. [21:19] ACTION received: Check to see if we'll have gnome 3.2 apps or gnome 3.0 apps in oneiric. [21:20] yeah i'm looking at the alpha1 tech overview wiki page, i see that we have switched to gnome 3 which is good news [21:20] not sure what trouble they will have transitioning Unity, but that's not really our problem except for any changes the user sees [21:22] just one last point on this... i think it will make it easier for new contributors to help with writing docs. the topics will be stubbed-out, so all of the boilerplate will be taken care of. [21:22] that should make things easier for anyone who wants to help. [21:22] but... more info on that later, i guess. [21:22] anything else on this for now? [21:23] [TOPIC] Team strategy document [21:23] New Topic: Team strategy document [21:23] I don't really have an update on this. :) my last commit was a week or so ago [21:24] [TOPIC] Ubuntu help website [21:24] New Topic: Ubuntu help website [21:24] this is kinda interesting. [21:25] I haven't spent much time looking at the content to think about how it could be improved, but I've had to spend a bit of time on converting xml for a browser for another project [21:25] i had a talk with jono late last week, and there seems to be more of a drive to improve help.ubuntu.com, but i'm not sure if they are eager to provide additional help, or what. [21:25] I feel more comfortable about the idea of helping build the site now - if you still need it [21:26] at the close of our talk, he said he was going to send a note to the docs team ML, but maybe he hasn't had a chance to yet. [21:26] vtanthropologist: cool [21:26] for me, the big question is, are we at a point where we can mostly assume that people have access to the web? [21:27] what do you think? [21:27] j1mc, in most cases people do, but are we planning on adding documentation there that we won't ship as a package? [21:27] Having lived in a developing country and seen anyone with access to a pc having access to the web, I'd say yes [21:27] j1mc: In most cases, apart from the very important case where someone can't get their wireless drivers working [21:28] jbicha: what do you think? [21:28] I guess people can ask to use a friend's internet connection [21:28] j1mc, what are we getting at? [21:28] Rocket2DMn: yeah, i think that would be a possibility. [21:29] I agree with philbull that we need to cater for wireless outages, but in that case most people still have windows as a fallback [21:29] Rocket2DMn: i was thinking of something like http://support.mozilla.com [21:29] and having a subset of those docs on-disk [21:29] Another issue is translation [21:30] there is also http://support.mozilla.com/es/home [21:31] i don't know about this, either ... i'm not sure if this is the right way to go, and i don't want people to be driven into anything. [21:32] It would be nice to have a portal like that to different documentation sources [21:32] i'm not sure we can get away from shipping docs at this time, we don't even have a framework for posting translated docs online yet [21:32] * j1mc nods [21:32] it was brought up in earlier discussions about doing that though, which i think would be great [21:33] if that proves to be effective and maintainable, we might be able to look at moving away from shipping docs in 12.04 [21:36] i'm not sure what else to say on it for now... i think that having a stronger, more interactive web presence for help would be good, and it sounds like people are agreeable to it [21:36] it's just a matter of criteria and resources [21:37] other thoughts on this for now? [21:37] The Mozilla offering looks good (SuMo) [21:37] and it would be nice to have the community wiki docs and official docs available from the same interface [21:38] one thing about SuMo is that they release weekly [21:38] so it's a bit of a moving target. although it's open source, i don't know of any other groups that are using it. [21:39] i wish we could have a hackfest to work together on this. [21:40] philbull: i'll put our notes together and get them out on the mailing list. [21:40] great, thanks j1mc [21:40] ok... next topic [21:40] [TOPIC] server docs [21:40] New Topic: server docs [21:41] the server team had a meeting where they asked about the update to the server docs [21:41] adam sommer and the server group are interested in the format similar to docs.openstack.org [21:41] and i'm going to get a test build together this week. [21:42] aside from getting confirmation from the server group, nothing too knew to report on that for now, though. [21:42] s/knew/new [21:42] [TOPIC] docs team blog [21:42] New Topic: docs team blog [21:43] are you talking about having two different sites? a SuMo-like help site and a openstack-like docs site? isn't that overkill? [21:43] sorry. I missed the topic change [21:44] vtanthropologist: good point. as a short-term thing, i think having the server docs in a nicer format would be good. [21:44] if we have the build tools available, and we don't have to change the server docs too much, i think it's ok to go ahead with at least a draft attempt at the new layout. [21:45] so SuMo is a long-term vision? but you're talking about 12.04 [21:45] i think so [21:46] right now, we don't have much in the line of support for web resources, so ... that will take more time to sort out, i think. [21:47] it seems like too many conflicting focuses to me [21:47] it's a lot of work, yes [21:47] what do others think? [21:48] Can I throw my two cents in? [21:48] i think i got confused on our topics - are we talking about the blog or about a new web interface to the docs? [21:49] Rocket2DMn: we went back to the web-talk, sorry about that [21:49] charlie-tca: sure [21:49] I have been using Ubuntu/Xubuntu for about 6 years now. [21:49] I have been helping with support in IRC for about three [21:50] I do think having the docs on the web would be at least as helpful as on the CD, since most people will not look for docs anywhere but online [21:50] The first thought in today's world is "google" [21:51] and google seldom says "look at your computer" [21:51] :) [21:51] Even when wireless fails, people do not look at their installed system for docs. [21:51] Thanks for letting me say it. [21:52] thanks, charlie-tca [21:53] do other people think the short-term look at redoing server-docs, but progressing toward long-term getting the web-help in shape would be a good direction to go? [21:53] or is it a conflict of sorts? [21:53] i know it's a lot of work. [21:53] i dont thikn that conflicts, the serverguide is already online-only [21:54] but i think we need to continue shipping desktop docs for now [21:54] people still report bugs about using the desktop help, so people are definitely using it [21:54] :) [21:54] others? [21:54] (on their systems that is) [21:54] if the server docs will be minimal effort, it's probably ok, but I thought it would make more sense to put effort into one site and build it out for the other components as we can [21:55] * j1mc nods... [21:55] i'll get to work on the server docs, and we'll start considering options for web help. [21:56] i think this level of agreement is ok for this meeting though. [21:56] [AGREED] jim to get to work on the server docs, and we'll start considering options for web help. [21:56] AGREED received: jim to get to work on the server docs, and we'll start considering options for web help. [21:56] Please don't break the existing server guide. It's pretty good. [21:56] [TOPIC] docs team blog - for real [21:56] New Topic: docs team blog - for real [21:56] ScottK: it'll stay in the same format. same docbook. [21:57] ScottK: we'll talk more later [21:57] mdke emailed canonical RT about docs.ubuntu.com [21:57] but we haven't heard back [21:58] any comments on the emails that went out about this? [21:58] do other teams have a dedicated blog? === Guest4037 is now known as JanC [21:59] i know that the server team does, and i think a11y does, too. [21:59] there might be more [21:59] design team... [22:01] perhaps talk on this more once we hear back from RT? [22:01] edubuntu does as well. QA too, release team too, ... [22:02] ok... we'll wait on this a bit. [22:02] i know we're just over our hour, but can we still talk about the wiki? [22:03] i'm available if other teams dont have this time slot reserved [22:03] ok - we'll try here... [22:03] [TOPIC] Wiki cleanup [22:03] New Topic: Wiki cleanup [22:04] Rocket2DMn: you had some good comments on the ML about this. [22:05] have you had additional thoughts about it? anything you'd like to add? [22:05] i've spent some time over the last couple of weeks deleting a lot of old wiki pages [22:05] we could use help updating pages and/or tagging pages that need work or just need to be outright removed [22:06] i think that would be a good start [22:07] I have a question though [22:07] would anyone be available to get the word out about this request? [22:07] sure [22:07] some pages that are translated into other languages are marked for deletion [22:07] Do we support translated pages on the community docs? [22:07] I don't think it's the correct place for them, but I've never gone out of my way to manage them [22:08] good question... i would guess that the language coverage is pretty spotty, too. [22:08] it is, I'm not sure how well the pages are maintained either [22:09] is there an example page that you could point to? [22:09] how do you know if a page is translated? [22:09] https://help.ubuntu.com/community/NlBluetooth [22:09] https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RussianDocumentation [22:09] etc [22:10] thanks, Rocket2DMn. [22:11] should we bring these up on the ML? [22:11] i would feel bad about just deleting them, but we have no idea what they say, and i doubt they receive much of a review. [22:11] or i have no way of knowing if they are reviewed [22:12] ML is fine with me [22:13] can a deleted page be restored or do you delete the history too? [22:13] they can be restored [22:13] Rocket2DMn: do you have a blog on the planet? can you post about how to tag pages as outdated / needing review / recommended for deletion, or just point people to those pages on the wiki that describe how to do it? [22:14] j1mc, i don't keep a blog [22:14] ok, so worst case if you don't get a response on the ML, deleting it should bring anyone that's been using it out of the woodwork [22:15] ok... i can blog about it. [22:15] vtanthropologist, if they are subscribed to the page, they should get an email [22:15] Rocket2DMn: could you send a note out to the ML about the translations? [22:16] (the wiki pages that have been translated) [22:16] yeah [22:16] ok. :) [22:17] [ACTION] connor to send note to the ML about translated wiki pages [22:17] ACTION received: connor to send note to the ML about translated wiki pages [22:17] [ACTION] jim to blog about tagging wiki pages [22:17] ACTION received: jim to blog about tagging wiki pages [22:17] anything else for today? [22:17] i dont have anything [22:18] nor me [22:18] okies... thanks for joining all. :) [22:18] enjoy the rest of your sunday, wherever that may be. [22:18] #endmeeting [22:18] Meeting finished at 16:18. [22:18] Sunday finished 7 hours ago, but there's lots of Monday left to enjoy [22:19] :) [22:19] i'll send the minutes and log to the ML [22:19] vtanthropologist: i forget that you're in Australia. what part? [22:19] thanks j1mc [22:19] Sydney [22:19] cool. :) [22:19] I take it you're in the US [22:19] ? [22:19] i just met someone from red hat in brisbane last week. [22:19] but i heard brisbane is kind of a smaller city [22:20] yes, i'm in the states [22:20] yep. we call it Brisvagas [22:20] which part of the US? [22:21] central... chicago area. [22:21] I liked Chicago. I didn't get out of the city though [22:21] vtanthropologist: are there certain doc areas where you might want to write some docs? any certain apps or topics areas? [22:22] I'd like to give it a go. I was working with philbull on writing a better installation guide as pdf, but that lost momentum [22:23] I find it difficult to know where things are up to in the docs systems and I wonder if I know the apps well enough to write docs [22:23] ok. we will have a better list of apps that need help soon. [22:23] I use the basics a lot, but the basic docs already seem to be covered [22:24] that's why I thought I could help with building the web site [22:24] yeah, when we were brainstorming docs for seahorse... we were asking lots of questions like, "what is this?" "what does this do?" [22:24] editing and review can be a good place to get situated, too. [22:24] if you aren't sure where things are in the "docs ecosystem" [22:24] again, I can't find what needs reviewing. [22:25] exactly [22:25] ok - i can write up something about that, too. that is good to know. [22:25] i'm going to head-out... thanks for your input, vtanthropologist [22:25] I think there needs to be a much better onboarding process for interested newbies [22:26] yep. have a good day [22:26] thanks again. ttyl === Adri2000 is now known as Guest26577