=== knome_ is now known as knome [14:09] No new images again today [15:01] Let's go ahead and run the tests scheduled for the 13th on the images we have [18:49] hello [19:04] charlie-tca: how's life dude? [19:07] It's going, at least. Grass is green, thanks to the daily dose of rain here [19:07] I am starting to believe that "rust" really is a color now. [19:19] Xubuntu community meeting in #xubuntu-devel in 40 minutes. Everyone is invited to attend. Agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings [19:20] charlie-tca: haha yes rust really is a colour [19:59] Xubuntu community meeting in #xubuntu-devel in 1 minutes. Everyone is invited to attend. Agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings [20:00] Are we ready to have a meeting? [20:01] #STARTMEETING [20:01] o/ [20:01] * micahg passes charlie-tca a chair [20:01] yes, I know we have no meeting bot, but at least using start and end lets a person seach the logs easily [20:01] Thanks, micahg [20:02] Welcome to the Xubuntu Community Meeting. The full agenda is always available at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings [20:02] * Old business - all [20:02] knome is to set up a tele-conference of some type to discuss marketing - email discussion started on xubuntu-devel ML - DONE [20:02] Charlie to dig for the xscreensaver updates, and put in an SRU [20:02] * Team updates - Team Leads [20:02] * Packaging & Development [20:02] Changes to the default applications [20:02] * Bug Triage & Testing [20:02] Daily testing versus milestone testing [20:02] * Website & Marketing [20:02] There is a current discussion on the xubuntu-devel mailing list [20:02] * Artwork [20:03] * Documentation [20:03] * Announcements - Project Lead [20:03] TeamReports need to be updated [20:03] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/TeamReports [20:03] * Governance structure - all [20:03] The governancy part of the current Strategy Document can be found at Xubuntu/StrategyDocument#Xubuntu Governance & Team Structure [20:03] * Any Other Business - all/anyone [20:03] Anyone involved with Xubuntu can update TeamReports, please do not wait for the Project Lead to do the updates. [20:03] whoa! that looks big [20:03] :) [20:03] Old business - all [20:03] knome is to set up a tele-conference of some type to discuss marketing [20:04] We closed this because we did start the discussion on the Mailing List. It is not as active as I would like, however, it is a start! [20:04] Charlie to dig for the xscreensaver updates, and put in an SRU [20:04] I'm behind and getting farther behind. [20:05] Team updates - Team Leads [20:05] * Packaging & Development [20:05] mr_pouit: You make it, or micahg [20:06] The updates I have already are : [20:06] LightDM replaced GDM as the login manager [20:06] xarchiver replaced file-roller due to nautilus dependency with file-roller [20:06] leafpad replaced mousepad; mousepad needs a maintainer in Xfce. This will also allow Xubuntu to drop xfprint4, which is used only by mousepad. [20:06] micahg: your turn [20:06] mr_pouit created https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Oneiric/DeltaReviewAndCleanup to track the current diffs with Debian [20:07] Great idea! [20:07] we have a few syncs waiting for the next sync run, it looks like we'll only have a handful of packages with a diff in ubuntu when we're done, some of the diff will be kept in Debian [20:08] Did we get pavucontrol and pastebinit added to the defaults? [20:08] not yet [20:08] and, what about the possibility of shipping with two browsers? [20:08] we also added back the places plugin since it no longer uses hal [20:08] Yay! [20:08] That's a nice gain [20:09] we're still horribly oversized, we should work on that first before adding more IMHO [20:09] I agree. Ubuntu seems to be under now, we should be able to work our images down too [20:09] yeah, well, we're inheriting some bloat still from Ubuntu (GTK3) [20:10] Thanks for the updates, micahg [20:10] so, we'll see what happens after the next CD run [20:10] Any questions/comments for development? [20:10] Next topic then... [20:10] Bug Triage & Testing [20:10] Daily testing versus milestone testing [20:11] We have not gotten an image since the 10th of June. It is under investigation [20:12] However, having a couple of people willing to test daily images (install, restart, update, restart, shutdown), we now have chart of daily testing to use. [20:12] https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AucFSttyWCevdGZSenZqRS04eE9LYnBwSWtUM0NJRXc&hl=en_US&authkey=CP282scF#gid=0 [20:12] If we are updating it, we will move it to the wiki [20:13] Otherwise, it becomes a nice flowchart for the testing people to try to use. [20:13] There are still a ton of issues with oneiric, too many to report all the bugs this early. [20:13] any questions for testing? [20:14] Next topic... [20:14] Website & Marketing [20:14] There is a current discussion on the xubuntu-devel mailing list [20:14] Anyone is welcome to add to the discussion. We really need someone to grab this and carry it on. [20:15] if someone has some ideas for content we can start creating the "promote xubuntu" page on the site [20:15] I can start by just putting the logos up if you want [20:15] And, in Marketing terms, we welcome the addition of plantoschka to the team. [20:15] pleia2: that would be great! [20:15] ok cool, I'll work on that then :) [20:16] ;-) [20:16] We also have a wiki page at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Marketing with general ideas [20:16] plantoschka has been kind enough to offer to write news releases and blogs for Xubuntu. [20:16] great [20:17] for website stuff, I've been tackling bugs at https://bugs.launchpad.net/xubuntu-website and we're down to just 1, but please add more if you find them [20:17] and we now have a test wordpress install up at xubuntu.princessleia.com (please don't spread this URL too far, the server has limited power :)) where knome is developing our wordpress theme [20:17] wOw! That's great. Let's stay on top, if you haven't visited http://xubuntu.org lately, it is time to visit it [20:18] all bugs against the website can be reported directly to launchpad or using ubuntu-bug xubuntu-website [20:18] I also emailed cody to see if he could update the current drupal site with knomes latest drupal revision which puts the new logo in, but I haven't heard back [20:19] and he isn't here today, either. [20:19] Shall we let plantoschka introduce himself? [20:19] yeah, I'm done :) [20:19] plantoschka: go ahead and tell us a little about you [20:20] oh okay ;) [20:21] I know you said you have written a blog in german? [20:21] i'm anton from germany 23 years old and atm studying computer science. i use and work with linux system since a couple of years and now using (and loving) xubuntu since a few months [20:21] yes. http://www.plantoschka.com/ [20:22] some posts are dedicated to xubuntu [20:22] I forgot to tell you I was going to have you introduce yourself today? [20:23] yeah ;) [20:23] Welcome to Xubuntu! We are happy to have help [20:23] Any questions on website and marketing? [20:23] not right now [20:24] next topic... [20:24] Artwork [20:24] Our theme will be re-worked to fine tune it for Oneiric. Those with real sharp eyes running Oneiric will see the changes, or at least it did change. [20:26] Next topic... [20:26] Announcements [20:26] There is a really neat review of Xfce, which Xubuntu is based on [20:26] http://www.linux.com/learn/tutorials/456623-weekend-project-find-hidden-treasures-in-xfce-48 [20:26] is greybird going to support gtk3 apps? or does it already? [20:27] ochosi is planning to support gtk3, yes [20:27] ok think itÄ [20:27] There are no themes yet for it, though [20:27] it's important for oneiric [20:27] or all the gtk3 apps look bad [20:27] Xubuntu will stay in gtk2 for oneiric, since Xfce requires it [20:28] but, yeah, with the mix of them, we will have the theme updated for gtk3 [20:28] yeah, but still some people are using nautilus or similar.. [20:28] heh, oh well... ;-) [20:28] software center will also be gtk3, and it is included by default [20:29] xubuntu will be staying on gtk2 for oneiric+1 as well :) [20:29] software center might not be ported to gtk3 [20:29] ubuntu now has a theme engine so that one theme can work for both gtk3 and gtk2 [20:29] please never remove the software center from xubuntu :-D [20:30] I never use it, myself. [20:30] however, let's press on here [20:30] next topic... [20:30] Announcements [20:30] TeamReports need to be updated [20:30] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/TeamReports [20:31] If we keep the team reports updated as we go through the month, it is much easier than trying to remember everything we did at the end of the month [20:31] Anyone involved with Xubuntu can update TeamReports, please do not wait for the Project Lead to do the updates. [20:32] Questions? [20:32] micahg, mr_pouit : the sooner we can say yes or no to gtk3 the better it will be. [20:32] Any other business? [20:33] The governancy part of the current Strategy Document can be found at Xubuntu/StrategyDocument#Xubuntu Governance & Team Structure [20:33] charlie-tca: well, IMHO, if we need it (for shared components we can't replace), we take it, if not, not [20:34] charlie-tca: do we need yelp? [20:34] yes [20:34] ok, that's GTK3, issue solved :) [20:34] apparently, much of the xfce documentation is now read through yelp [20:34] or at least the answer is "yes, we need yelp" [20:35] so, we will have both, huh? [20:35] yep [20:35] anything else??? Anyone??? [20:35] testing! [20:35] better to take this hit this cycle than scrambling next cycle, we'll definitely need it next cycle [20:35] at least for the shared stuff :) [20:36] I have a couple of people signed up for daily and milestone testing. But I am losing them faster than I can sign them up [20:36] Alpha2 is due on July 7. On July 5, we start milestone testing the candidate for Alpha2. THat is the involved tests. [20:37] Even as volunteers, once you tell us you will do something, we expect it to happen, please. [20:37] going.... [20:38] going 2 ..... [20:38] charlie-tca: a reminder to the -devel list on the 4th or 5th would be super helpful [20:38] Can do [20:38] thanks :) [20:38] no problem [20:38] Thanks for bringing that up [20:38] Next meeting will be Sunday June 19 at 22:00 UTC [20:39] and I will try to be here for it [20:39] Thanks to everyone for participating in the meeting. [20:39] #ENDMEETING [20:42] what exactly does a tester has to do? [20:42] and is testing inside vm enough or should it run native? [20:43] We test the cd's before they are published. Daily testing is to make the cd will even work, since changes happen every day [20:43] yes, vm is enough [20:44] Milestone testing is more intensive and involved. It follows this: [20:44] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing [20:44] And I just got here... Time to read up [20:44] The testing is done for the development images [20:44] which often are broken [20:45] maybe i can help there too, but probably just from end of july.. too much stuff do to atm.. [20:45] Hopefully, testing will get most of the bugs reported and fixed before the users get the cd's [20:45] That's fine. Every little bit helps [20:46] Anyone using weechat for IRC here? [20:47] micahg: I did try thunderbird in oneiric. It started, and seems to work. [20:47] I will probably have to switch to it, to give it good testing. [20:49] hi [20:51] Like anything that is different, it will take sometime to get used to [20:52] hi Wizard [20:52] Gonna be a confusing week, with Thunderbird and Weechat to get used to again. [20:56] I use thunderbird/alpine and irssi. I was following the milestone for a few of the daily tests (That's why it was a little harder) [21:00] will dejadub also be integrated in the xubuntu livecd? [21:00] I currently use claws-mail and xchat, which I have used for more than two years now [21:00] plantoschka: we do not plan to add it at this time [21:01] It is very much Ubuntu/Unity/UbuntuOne oriented now, although it does still work for us [21:01] ok [21:08] if i regulary update the daily built from today will it be any different from a daily build a couple of days later? [21:08] or is it necessary to install a from a fresh livecd every couple of day or can i just upgrade? [21:10] If you install using the daily build, and update it regularly, it will be very close to the image built at any time [21:10] but not exactly the same? :-D [21:10] I installed the weekend after alpha1 released, and update it daily [21:11] i mean if i would use the alpha 1 from 11.04 and upgrade it would i get lightdm instead of gdm3 ? [21:11] It can not be exact, because some of the changes affect things you will have changed. We do not change what you set for yourself. [21:11] um, 11.04 is the last stable release. [21:12] If you install oneiric alpha1, yes, you should get lightdm when updating it [21:12] i meant 11.10 :-D [21:13] this version numbers make me crazy ;) [21:13] but sometimes, you have to do the changes yourself. I installed lightdm here when I set everything up for myself. That was a while before xubuntu set it up [21:13] You will get used to the numbers. The numbers are easy if you remember their meaning. [21:14] The first number is always the year, and the second number is the month of the actual release. [21:14] yeah i know but still.. [21:14] 10,11,12,13,14 would have been easir ;) [21:14] Just use oneiric for the current development release. It is easier than a number [21:15] yeah probably. [21:15] but meant less [21:15] 11.04 released in April of 2011 [21:16] is it somehow possible to blacklist installation of some applications like nautilus or gnome-panel? sometimes when i install something from software center (like alacarte) it installs some gnome stuff i dont really need.. (11.04) [21:17] yup [21:17] plantoschka, it installs them as they are the dependencies of alacarte, I'm not sure you'd want to go around apt like that [21:17] but it's possible, yes [21:18] add it to a list in /etc/modprobe.d [21:18] i could uninstall gnome-panel and nautilus and alacarte is still there and works.. [21:18] once added, It can not install again [21:18] and if it does that, file a bug against the application installed. [21:19] ^ [21:19] /etc/modprobe.d/blacklist.conf here? [21:19] alacarte should not pull in nautilus. That is a bug in software center [21:19] yup [21:19] charlie-tca: ? modprobe is the driver blacklist [21:19] that means they are bad dependencies :( [21:19] plantoschka: I am wrong, apparently. [21:19] micahg: I thought you could blacklist apps too there? [21:20] i'm not 100% sure that alacarte pulled nautilus. but one app definetly done it.. but alacarte pulled gnome-panel [21:20] charlie-tca: I don't think so [21:20] plantoschka: still a bug in software-center [21:20] alacarte recommends gnome-panel which pulls in other stuff [21:20] charlie-tca: no, not a bug in software center [21:20] yeah, i think it's a problem with the default apt-setting [21:20] we install recommends by default [21:20] it pulls recommends by default since a few versions [21:20] (same in debian btw) [21:21] does apt-get do that too? [21:21] yep [21:21] the archlinux packetmanager pacman can block specific packages ;) [21:21] apt not? [21:21] Then Ubuntu needs to make it work different, alacarte does not need gnome-panel [21:21] charlie-tca: you can work around it by either changing the settings or using "--no-recommends" or something like that [21:21] plantoschka: I know in aptitude you can hold packages at a certain version [21:21] plantoschka: you can try apt pinning [21:22] you can also pin package versions in synaptic [21:22] but that doesn't make it not pull it in [21:22] charlie-tca: recommends is something used in most scenarios, still we can probably get that dropped to a suggests [21:22] pinning the version will not make gnome-panel not install with a package we need. [21:22] micahg is right [21:23] charlie-tca: right [21:23] We can only get it dropped with a bug report, right? [21:23] yeah, unfortunately, the panels don't provide a virtual package or we could use that [21:24] so, we are back to the beginning. We need a bug report on it, to get something done about it [21:24] probably we can ship the apt-setting in the xubuntu default settings package? [21:24] for every package that we don't know about? [21:25] charlie-tca: debian 603013 partially addresses this [21:25] Debian bug 603013 in alacarte "alacarte: spurious dependency on gnome-menus" [Normal,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/603013 [21:25] ochosi: no, I think we want to install recommends by default, we can block certain things on the images, but ideally, if something's really wrong, we should just get it fixed [21:25] hm right. [21:26] well i generally switch off the install-recommends option, guess that's why i wanted to suggest it [21:26] going to watch the new game of thrones episode :-D bye [21:27] so, debian patches alacarte to only work with gnome, and Ubuntu could remove that patch? [21:27] wow, alacarte has a lot of recommends [21:27] you can install just alacarte with: [21:27] alacarte only recommends gnome-panel [21:27] sudo aptitude -R install alacarte [21:27] I just did it myself [21:28] Unfortunately, per that debian bug report, it may not be useable by xfce: [21:28] The problem is that in its current state, alacarte will only be able to [21:28] edit gnome-applications.menu and gnome-settings.menu - we patch it do [21:28] so, otherwise that would be applications.menu and settings.menu. [21:29] micahg, I'm a bit confused then, here's what happened for me: http://paste.ubuntu.com/626122/ [21:29] it seems to depend/recommend on every package in ubuntu :| [21:30] so far as even ubuntuone-client [21:30] xrdodrx: gnome-panel has a lot of depends/recommends :) [21:30] adding the -R switch only installed alacarte [21:30] micahg, oh, I see ;) [21:33] * micahg will ask the desktop team tomorrow [21:37] Thanks, micahg [22:06] Okay, I have to go shovel dirt now