[14:09] <charlie-tca> No new images again today 
[15:01] <charlie-tca> Let's go ahead and run the tests scheduled for the 13th on the images we have 
[18:49] <noey> hello
[19:04] <davmor2> charlie-tca: how's life dude?
[19:07] <charlie-tca> It's going, at least. Grass is green, thanks to the daily dose of rain here
[19:07] <charlie-tca> I am starting to believe that "rust" really is a color now.
[19:19] <charlie-tca> Xubuntu community meeting in #xubuntu-devel in 40 minutes. Everyone is invited to attend. Agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
[19:20] <davmor2> charlie-tca: haha yes rust really is a colour
[19:59] <charlie-tca> Xubuntu community meeting in #xubuntu-devel in 1 minutes. Everyone is invited to attend. Agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
[20:00] <charlie-tca> Are we ready to have a meeting?
[20:01] <charlie-tca> #STARTMEETING
[20:01] <micahg> o/
[20:01]  * micahg passes charlie-tca a chair
[20:01] <charlie-tca> yes, I know we have no meeting bot, but at least using start and end lets a person seach the logs easily
[20:01] <charlie-tca> Thanks, micahg 
[20:02] <charlie-tca> Welcome to the Xubuntu Community Meeting. The full agenda is always available at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
[20:02] <charlie-tca> *   Old business - all
[20:02] <charlie-tca>         knome is to set up a tele-conference of some type to discuss marketing - email discussion started on xubuntu-devel ML - DONE
[20:02] <charlie-tca>         Charlie to dig for the xscreensaver updates, and put in an SRU
[20:02] <charlie-tca> *   Team updates - Team Leads
[20:02] <charlie-tca>  *       Packaging & Development
[20:02] <charlie-tca>             Changes to the default applications
[20:02] <charlie-tca> *       Bug Triage & Testing
[20:02] <charlie-tca>             Daily testing versus milestone testing
[20:02] <charlie-tca> *       Website & Marketing
[20:02] <charlie-tca>             There is a current discussion on the xubuntu-devel mailing list
[20:02] <charlie-tca> *       Artwork
[20:03] <charlie-tca> *       Documentation
[20:03] <charlie-tca> *   Announcements - Project Lead
[20:03] <charlie-tca>         TeamReports need to be updated
[20:03] <charlie-tca>             https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/TeamReports
[20:03] <charlie-tca> *   Governance structure - all
[20:03] <charlie-tca>         The governancy part of the current Strategy Document can be found at Xubuntu/StrategyDocument#Xubuntu Governance & Team Structure
[20:03] <charlie-tca> *   Any Other Business - all/anyone
[20:03] <charlie-tca>         Anyone involved with Xubuntu can update TeamReports, please do not wait for the Project Lead to do the updates.
[20:03] <charlie-tca> whoa! that looks big
[20:03] <pleia2> :)
[20:03] <charlie-tca> Old business - all
[20:03] <charlie-tca>         knome is to set up a tele-conference of some type to discuss marketing
[20:04] <charlie-tca> We closed this because we did start the discussion on the Mailing List. It is not as active as I would like, however, it is a start!
[20:04] <charlie-tca> Charlie to dig for the xscreensaver updates, and put in an SRU
[20:04] <charlie-tca> I'm behind and getting farther behind.
[20:05] <charlie-tca> Team updates - Team Leads
[20:05] <charlie-tca>  *       Packaging & Development
[20:05] <charlie-tca> mr_pouit: You make it, or micahg 
[20:06] <charlie-tca> The updates I have already are :
[20:06] <charlie-tca> LightDM replaced GDM as the login manager
[20:06] <charlie-tca> xarchiver replaced file-roller due to nautilus dependency with file-roller
[20:06] <charlie-tca> leafpad replaced mousepad; mousepad needs a maintainer in Xfce. This will also allow Xubuntu to drop xfprint4, which is used only by mousepad. 
[20:06] <charlie-tca> micahg: your turn
[20:06] <micahg> mr_pouit created https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Oneiric/DeltaReviewAndCleanup to track the current diffs with Debian
[20:07] <charlie-tca> Great idea!
[20:07] <micahg> we have a few syncs waiting for the next sync run, it looks like we'll only have a handful of packages with a diff in ubuntu when we're done, some of the diff will be kept in Debian
[20:08] <charlie-tca> Did we get pavucontrol and pastebinit added to the defaults?
[20:08] <micahg> not yet
[20:08] <charlie-tca> and, what about the possibility of shipping with two browsers?
[20:08] <micahg> we also added back the places plugin since it no longer uses hal
[20:08] <charlie-tca> Yay!
[20:08] <charlie-tca> That's a nice gain
[20:09] <micahg> we're still horribly oversized, we should work on that first before adding more IMHO
[20:09] <charlie-tca> I agree. Ubuntu seems to be under now, we should be able to work our images down too
[20:09] <micahg> yeah, well, we're inheriting some bloat still from Ubuntu (GTK3)
[20:10] <charlie-tca> Thanks for the updates, micahg 
[20:10] <micahg> so, we'll see what happens after the next CD run
[20:10] <charlie-tca> Any questions/comments for development?
[20:10] <charlie-tca> Next topic then...
[20:10] <charlie-tca> Bug Triage & Testing
[20:10] <charlie-tca>             Daily testing versus milestone testing
[20:11] <charlie-tca> We have not gotten an image since the 10th of June. It is under investigation
[20:12] <charlie-tca> However, having a couple of people willing to test daily images (install, restart, update, restart, shutdown), we now have chart of daily testing to use.
[20:12] <charlie-tca> https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AucFSttyWCevdGZSenZqRS04eE9LYnBwSWtUM0NJRXc&hl=en_US&authkey=CP282scF#gid=0
[20:12] <charlie-tca> If we are updating it, we will move it to the wiki
[20:13] <charlie-tca> Otherwise, it becomes a nice flowchart for the testing people to try to use.
[20:13] <charlie-tca> There are still a ton of issues with oneiric, too many to report all the bugs this early.
[20:13] <charlie-tca> any questions for testing?
[20:14] <charlie-tca> Next topic...
[20:14] <charlie-tca> Website & Marketing
[20:14] <charlie-tca>             There is a current discussion on the xubuntu-devel mailing list
[20:14] <charlie-tca> Anyone is welcome to add to the discussion. We really need someone to grab this and carry it on.
[20:15] <pleia2> if someone has some ideas for content we can start creating the "promote xubuntu" page on the site
[20:15] <pleia2> I can start by just putting the logos up if you want
[20:15] <charlie-tca> And, in Marketing terms, we welcome the addition of plantoschka to the team.
[20:15] <charlie-tca> pleia2: that would be great!
[20:15] <pleia2> ok cool, I'll work on that then :)
[20:16] <plantoschka> ;-)
[20:16] <charlie-tca> We also have a wiki page at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Marketing with general ideas
[20:16] <charlie-tca> plantoschka has been kind enough to offer to write news releases and blogs for Xubuntu.
[20:16] <pleia2> great
[20:17] <pleia2> for website stuff, I've been tackling bugs at https://bugs.launchpad.net/xubuntu-website and we're down to just 1, but please add more if you find them
[20:17] <pleia2> and we now have a test wordpress install up at xubuntu.princessleia.com (please don't spread this URL too far, the server has limited power :)) where knome is developing our wordpress theme
[20:17] <charlie-tca> wOw! That's great. Let's stay on top, if you haven't visited http://xubuntu.org lately, it is time to visit it
[20:18] <charlie-tca> all bugs against the website can be reported directly to launchpad or using      ubuntu-bug xubuntu-website
[20:18] <pleia2> I also emailed cody to see if he could update the current drupal site with knomes latest drupal revision which puts the new logo in, but I haven't heard back
[20:19] <charlie-tca> and he isn't here today, either. 
[20:19] <charlie-tca> Shall we let plantoschka introduce himself?
[20:19] <pleia2> yeah, I'm done :)
[20:19] <charlie-tca> plantoschka: go ahead and tell us a little about you
[20:20] <plantoschka> oh okay ;)
[20:21] <charlie-tca> I know you said you have written a blog in german?
[20:21] <plantoschka> i'm anton from germany 23 years old and atm studying computer science. i use and work with linux system since a couple of years and now using (and loving) xubuntu since a few months
[20:21] <plantoschka> yes. http://www.plantoschka.com/
[20:22] <plantoschka> some posts are dedicated to xubuntu
[20:22] <charlie-tca> I forgot to tell you I was going to have you introduce yourself today?
[20:23] <plantoschka> yeah ;)
[20:23] <charlie-tca> Welcome to Xubuntu! We are happy to have help
[20:23] <charlie-tca> Any questions on website and marketing?
[20:23] <plantoschka> not right now
[20:24] <charlie-tca> next topic...
[20:24] <charlie-tca> Artwork
[20:24] <charlie-tca> Our theme will be re-worked to fine tune it for Oneiric. Those with real sharp eyes running Oneiric will see the changes, or at least it did change.
[20:26] <charlie-tca> Next topic... 
[20:26] <charlie-tca> Announcements
[20:26] <charlie-tca> There is a really neat review of Xfce, which Xubuntu is based on 
[20:26] <charlie-tca> http://www.linux.com/learn/tutorials/456623-weekend-project-find-hidden-treasures-in-xfce-48
[20:26] <plantoschka> is greybird going to support gtk3 apps? or does it already?
[20:27] <charlie-tca> ochosi is planning to support gtk3, yes
[20:27] <plantoschka> ok think itÄ
[20:27] <charlie-tca> There are no themes yet for it, though
[20:27] <plantoschka> it's important for oneiric
[20:27] <plantoschka> or all the gtk3 apps look bad
[20:27] <charlie-tca> Xubuntu will stay in gtk2 for oneiric, since Xfce requires it
[20:28] <charlie-tca> but, yeah, with the mix of them, we will have the theme updated for gtk3
[20:28] <plantoschka> yeah, but still some people are using nautilus or similar..
[20:28] <charlie-tca> heh, oh well... ;-)
[20:28] <charlie-tca> software center will also be gtk3, and it is included by default
[20:29] <micahg> xubuntu will be staying on gtk2 for oneiric+1 as well :)
[20:29] <micahg> software center might not be ported to gtk3
[20:29] <micahg> ubuntu now has a theme engine so that one theme can work for both gtk3 and gtk2
[20:29] <plantoschka> please never remove the software center from xubuntu :-D
[20:30] <charlie-tca> I never use it, myself.
[20:30] <charlie-tca> however, let's press on here
[20:30] <charlie-tca> next topic...
[20:30] <charlie-tca> Announcements
[20:30] <charlie-tca> TeamReports need to be updated
[20:30] <charlie-tca>             https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/TeamReports
[20:31] <charlie-tca> If we keep the team reports updated as we go through the month, it is much easier than trying to remember everything we did at the end of the month
[20:31] <charlie-tca> Anyone involved with Xubuntu can update TeamReports, please do not wait for the Project Lead to do the updates.
[20:32] <charlie-tca> Questions?
[20:32] <charlie-tca> micahg, mr_pouit : the sooner we can say yes or no to gtk3 the better it will be.
[20:32] <charlie-tca> Any other business?
[20:33] <charlie-tca> The governancy part of the current Strategy Document can be found at Xubuntu/StrategyDocument#Xubuntu Governance & Team Structure
[20:33] <micahg> charlie-tca: well, IMHO, if we need it (for shared components we can't replace), we take it, if not, not
[20:34] <micahg> charlie-tca: do we need yelp?
[20:34] <charlie-tca> yes
[20:34] <micahg> ok, that's GTK3, issue solved :)
[20:34] <charlie-tca> apparently, much of the xfce documentation is now read through yelp
[20:34] <charlie-tca> or at least the answer is "yes, we need yelp"
[20:35] <charlie-tca> so, we will have both, huh?
[20:35] <micahg> yep
[20:35] <charlie-tca> anything else???   Anyone???
[20:35] <charlie-tca> testing!
[20:35] <micahg> better to take this hit this cycle than scrambling next cycle, we'll definitely need it next cycle
[20:35] <micahg> at least for the shared stuff :)
[20:36] <charlie-tca> I have a couple of people signed up for daily and milestone testing. But I am losing them faster than I can sign them up
[20:36] <charlie-tca> Alpha2 is due on July 7. On July 5, we start milestone testing the candidate for Alpha2. THat is the involved tests.
[20:37] <charlie-tca> Even as volunteers, once you tell us you will do something, we expect it to happen, please.
[20:37] <charlie-tca> going....
[20:38] <charlie-tca> going 2 .....
[20:38] <pleia2> charlie-tca: a reminder to the -devel list on the 4th or 5th would be super helpful
[20:38] <charlie-tca> Can do
[20:38] <pleia2> thanks :)
[20:38] <charlie-tca> no problem
[20:38] <charlie-tca> Thanks for bringing that up
[20:38] <charlie-tca> Next meeting will be Sunday June 19 at 22:00 UTC
[20:39] <charlie-tca> and I will try to be here for it
[20:39] <charlie-tca> Thanks to everyone for participating in the meeting. 
[20:39] <charlie-tca> #ENDMEETING
[20:42] <plantoschka> what exactly does a tester has to do?
[20:42] <plantoschka> and is testing inside vm enough or should it run native?
[20:43] <charlie-tca> We test the cd's before they are published. Daily testing is to make the cd will even work, since changes happen every day
[20:43] <charlie-tca> yes, vm is enough
[20:44] <charlie-tca> Milestone testing is more intensive and involved. It follows this:
[20:44] <charlie-tca> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing
[20:44] <Unit193> And I just got here... Time to read up
[20:44] <charlie-tca> The testing is done for the development images
[20:44] <charlie-tca> which often are broken
[20:45] <plantoschka> maybe i can help there too, but probably just from end of july.. too much stuff do to atm..
[20:45] <charlie-tca> Hopefully, testing will get most of the bugs reported and fixed before the users get the cd's
[20:45] <charlie-tca> That's fine. Every little bit helps
[20:46] <charlie-tca> Anyone using weechat for IRC here?
[20:47] <charlie-tca> micahg: I did try thunderbird in oneiric. It started, and seems to work.
[20:47] <charlie-tca> I will probably have to switch to it, to give it good testing.
[20:49] <Wizard> hi
[20:51] <charlie-tca> Like anything that is different, it will take sometime to get used to 
[20:52] <plantoschka> hi Wizard 
[20:52] <charlie-tca> Gonna be a confusing week, with Thunderbird and Weechat to get used to again.
[20:56] <Unit193> I use thunderbird/alpine and irssi. I was following the milestone for a few of the daily tests (That's why it was a little harder)
[21:00] <plantoschka> will dejadub also be integrated in the xubuntu livecd?
[21:00] <charlie-tca> I currently use claws-mail and xchat, which I have used for more than two years now
[21:00] <charlie-tca> plantoschka: we do not plan to add it at this time
[21:01] <charlie-tca> It is very much Ubuntu/Unity/UbuntuOne oriented now, although it does still work for us
[21:01] <plantoschka> ok
[21:08] <plantoschka> if i regulary update the daily built from today will it be any different from a daily build a couple of days later?
[21:08] <plantoschka> or is it necessary to install a from a fresh livecd every couple of day or can i just upgrade?
[21:10] <charlie-tca> If you install using the daily build, and update it regularly, it will be very close to the image built at any time
[21:10] <plantoschka> but not exactly the same? :-D
[21:10] <charlie-tca> I installed the weekend after alpha1 released, and update it daily
[21:11] <plantoschka> i mean if i would use the alpha 1 from 11.04 and upgrade it would i get lightdm instead of gdm3 ?
[21:11] <charlie-tca> It can not be exact, because some of the changes affect things you will have changed. We do not change what you set for yourself.
[21:11] <charlie-tca> um, 11.04 is the last stable release.
[21:12] <charlie-tca> If you install oneiric alpha1, yes, you should get lightdm when updating it
[21:12] <plantoschka> i meant 11.10 :-D
[21:13] <plantoschka> this version numbers make me crazy ;)
[21:13] <charlie-tca> but sometimes, you have to do the changes yourself. I installed lightdm here when I set everything up for myself. That was a while before xubuntu set it up
[21:13] <charlie-tca> You will get used to the numbers. The numbers are easy if you remember their meaning.
[21:14] <charlie-tca> The first number is always the year, and the second number is the month of the actual release.
[21:14] <plantoschka> yeah i know but still..
[21:14] <plantoschka> 10,11,12,13,14 would have been easir ;)
[21:14] <charlie-tca> Just use oneiric for the current development release. It is easier than a number
[21:15] <plantoschka> yeah probably.
[21:15] <charlie-tca> but meant less
[21:15] <charlie-tca> 11.04 released in April of 2011
[21:16] <plantoschka> is it somehow possible to blacklist installation of some applications like nautilus or gnome-panel? sometimes when i install something from software center (like alacarte) it installs some gnome stuff i dont really need.. (11.04)
[21:17] <charlie-tca> yup
[21:17] <xrdodrx> plantoschka, it installs them as they are the dependencies of alacarte, I'm not sure you'd want to go around apt like that 
[21:17] <xrdodrx> but it's possible, yes
[21:18] <charlie-tca> add it to a list in /etc/modprobe.d
[21:18] <plantoschka> i could uninstall gnome-panel and nautilus and alacarte is still there and works..
[21:18] <charlie-tca> once added, It can not install again
[21:18] <charlie-tca> and if it does that, file a bug against the application installed.
[21:19] <xrdodrx> ^
[21:19] <plantoschka> /etc/modprobe.d/blacklist.conf here?
[21:19] <charlie-tca> alacarte should not pull in nautilus. That is a bug in software center
[21:19] <charlie-tca> yup
[21:19] <micahg> charlie-tca: ? modprobe is the driver blacklist
[21:19] <xrdodrx> that means they are bad dependencies :(
[21:19] <charlie-tca> plantoschka: I am wrong, apparently.
[21:19] <charlie-tca> micahg: I thought you could blacklist apps too there?
[21:20] <plantoschka> i'm not 100% sure that alacarte pulled nautilus. but one app definetly done it.. but alacarte pulled gnome-panel
[21:20] <micahg> charlie-tca: I don't think so
[21:20] <charlie-tca> plantoschka: still a bug in software-center
[21:20] <micahg> alacarte recommends gnome-panel which pulls in other stuff
[21:20] <micahg> charlie-tca: no, not a bug in software center
[21:20] <ochosi> yeah, i think it's a problem with the default apt-setting
[21:20] <micahg> we install recommends by default
[21:20] <ochosi> it pulls recommends by default since a few versions
[21:20] <ochosi> (same in debian btw)
[21:21] <charlie-tca> does apt-get do that too?
[21:21] <micahg> yep
[21:21] <plantoschka> the archlinux packetmanager pacman can block specific packages ;)
[21:21] <plantoschka> apt not?
[21:21] <charlie-tca> Then Ubuntu needs to make it work different, alacarte does not need gnome-panel
[21:21] <ochosi> charlie-tca: you can work around it by either changing the settings or using "--no-recommends" or something like that
[21:21] <micahg> plantoschka: I know in aptitude you can hold packages at a certain version
[21:21] <micahg> plantoschka: you can try apt pinning
[21:22] <ochosi> you can also pin package versions in synaptic
[21:22] <charlie-tca> but that doesn't make it not pull it in
[21:22] <micahg> charlie-tca: recommends is something used in most scenarios, still we can probably get that dropped to a suggests
[21:22] <charlie-tca> pinning the version will not make gnome-panel not install with a package we need.
[21:22] <ochosi> micahg is right
[21:23] <micahg> charlie-tca: right
[21:23] <charlie-tca> We can only get it dropped with a bug report, right?
[21:23] <micahg> yeah, unfortunately, the panels don't provide a virtual package or we could use that
[21:24] <charlie-tca> so, we are back to the beginning. We need a bug report on it, to get something done about it
[21:24] <ochosi> probably we can ship the apt-setting in the xubuntu default settings package?
[21:24] <charlie-tca> for every package that we don't know about?
[21:25] <micahg> charlie-tca: debian 603013 partially addresses this
[21:25] <micahg> ochosi: no, I think we want to install recommends by default, we can block certain things on the images, but ideally, if something's really wrong, we should just get it fixed
[21:25] <ochosi> hm right.
[21:26] <ochosi> well i generally switch off the install-recommends option, guess that's why i wanted to suggest it
[21:26] <plantoschka> going to watch the new game of thrones episode :-D bye
[21:27] <charlie-tca> so, debian patches alacarte to only work with gnome, and Ubuntu could remove that patch?
[21:27] <xrdodrx> wow, alacarte has a lot of recommends
[21:27] <xrdodrx> you can install just alacarte with:
[21:27] <micahg> alacarte only recommends gnome-panel
[21:27] <xrdodrx> sudo aptitude -R install alacarte
[21:27] <xrdodrx> I just did it myself
[21:28] <charlie-tca> Unfortunately, per that debian bug report, it may not be useable by xfce:
[21:28] <charlie-tca> The problem is that in its current state, alacarte will only be able to
[21:28] <charlie-tca> edit gnome-applications.menu and gnome-settings.menu - we patch it do
[21:28] <charlie-tca> so, otherwise that would be applications.menu and settings.menu.
[21:29] <xrdodrx> micahg, I'm a bit confused then, here's what happened for me: http://paste.ubuntu.com/626122/
[21:29] <xrdodrx> it seems to depend/recommend on every package in ubuntu :|
[21:30] <xrdodrx> so far as even ubuntuone-client
[21:30] <micahg> xrdodrx: gnome-panel has a lot of depends/recommends :)
[21:30] <xrdodrx> adding the -R switch only installed alacarte
[21:30] <xrdodrx> micahg, oh, I see ;)
[21:33]  * micahg will ask the desktop team tomorrow
[21:37] <charlie-tca> Thanks, micahg 
[22:06] <charlie-tca> Okay, I have to go shovel dirt now