[00:06] <MrChrisDruif> Sorry I'm late
[00:07] <PabloRubianes> is the ubuntu beginners team here right now?
[00:07] <MrChrisDruif> I don't know PabloRubianes
[00:08] <PabloRubianes> weird
[00:16] <coalwater> hi
[00:16] <coalwater> hm exciting meeting :D
[00:17] <MrChrisDruif> coalwater; meeting in 45 mins.
[00:17] <coalwater> o
[00:17] <coalwater> hm
[00:17] <coalwater> so i messed up the time zones?
[00:17] <MrChrisDruif> Nope, google did
[00:18] <coalwater> how?
[00:18] <coalwater> o btw, forgot to tell u good job on webupd8 workspaces thing :P
[00:20] <coalwater> i should sleep, it's 2:20 am here :D im sacrificing my nice sleep for this meeting , hope i's worth it :P
[01:04] <MrChrisDruif> Meeting?
[01:04] <nlsthzn> Objection!
[01:04] <MrChrisDruif> Overruled?
[01:04] <nlsthzn> :p
[01:12] <cprofitt> #startmeeting
[01:12] <MootBot> Meeting started at 19:12. The chair is cprofitt.
[01:12] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[01:12] <cprofitt> hello all
[01:13] <cprofitt> Will all Ubuntu Beginners Team members please say her
[01:13] <MrChrisDruif> Aloha oukou
[01:13] <cprofitt> here
[01:13] <PabloRubianes> here
[01:13] <MrChrisDruif> here
[01:14] <MrChrisDruif> I think this is it
[01:14] <zkriesse> I'm here
[01:14]  * cprofitt nods
[01:14] <zkriesse> :) hey cprofitt how you doing sir
[01:14] <pleia2> here
[01:14] <cprofitt> [TOPIC] re-structure of UBT
[01:14] <MootBot> New Topic:  re-structure of UBT
[01:14] <cprofitt> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/cprofitt/sandbox
[01:14] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/cprofitt/sandbox
[01:15] <cprofitt> those ideas are some rough ideas that will be discussed by the current council next week.
[01:15] <cprofitt> the suggestions come as a result of the meeting about the UBT at UDS-O
[01:16] <cprofitt> the goal (which may or may not be clear from the document linked) is to reduce redtape
[01:16] <cprofitt> and make the team more open and friendly to new folks.
[01:16] <cprofitt> at the same time there is a desire to ensure that mentors are well qualified to give people advice and guidance
[01:17] <cprofitt> I will be honest -- I think the current team is mired in muck right now
[01:17] <cprofitt> and less functional and effective than it could be.
[01:17]  * zkriesse nods
[01:17] <cprofitt> That, in my opinion, has nothing to do with the general membership, but the structure and lack of effective leadership
[01:18] <zkriesse> There's definitely a lack of activity and cohesive "administration"
[01:18] <cprofitt> no offense to those that are not here, but it bothers me that I am the only 'council' member here
[01:18] <hakimsheriff> sorry im late
[01:18] <cprofitt> and I was late due to a child falling out of bed
[01:18] <cprofitt> I apologize
[01:18] <cprofitt> for my tardiness
[01:19] <zkriesse> cprofitt: is your child oK/
[01:19] <cprofitt> yes, the bed is not to high
[01:19] <zkriesse> That kind of thing isn't exactly something you need to apologize for
[01:19] <cprofitt> but they are always a bit shaken
[01:19] <PabloRubianes> zkriesse, +1
[01:19] <zkriesse> And glad kiddie is ok :)
[01:19] <MrChrisDruif> Children before UBT, I like that :)
[01:19] <cprofitt> so...
[01:19] <cprofitt> there are really two things...
[01:20] <cprofitt> 1)  Jono and the community team would like the UBT to become an effective part in the community on-boarding process
[01:20]  * hakimsheriff thought the meeting wasnt happeing
[01:20] <cprofitt> 2)  That process should be as red-tape free as possible while maintaining quality
[01:20] <cprofitt> is there anyone that has any objection to those two items?
[01:21] <MrChrisDruif> The red-tape was put up to ensure quality right?
[01:21] <zkriesse> I have no objection
[01:21] <PabloRubianes> cprofitt, I think one thing is to welcome people inside the community and other is to let people easily in the team
[01:21] <MrChrisDruif> Or was it just for laughs?
[01:21] <cprofitt> MrChrisDruif: the red-tape was the result of a poorly executed attempt to ensure quality
[01:22] <zkriesse> If you make it too hard to contribute to a supposedly OPEN community there will be a lack of desire to contribute
[01:22] <cprofitt> I will not go any further in to detail other than to say it was due to a non-functional council and a great deal of compromise
[01:22] <cprofitt> PabloRubianes: yes
[01:22] <zkriesse> Not saying I feel we should just go away with the red tape it's just it needs to be as minimalistic as possible
[01:22] <cprofitt> one of the items listed on the link
[01:22] <cprofitt> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/cprofitt/sandbox
[01:22] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/cprofitt/sandbox
[01:22] <cprofitt> is to open the FGs up
[01:23] <cprofitt> and allow anyone to join them to receive guidance
[01:23] <cprofitt> being an FG member means you want help in that area
[01:23] <cprofitt> to learn more and potentially contribute to the community in that area
[01:23] <zkriesse> It's a group with a focus, not a hard core team that only experts can join, am I correct cprofitt ?
[01:23] <cprofitt> there should be no hoops or jumps to get to that
[01:23] <MrChrisDruif> And you also go "upstream" sorta say..
[01:23] <cprofitt> +1 zkriesse
[01:24] <MrChrisDruif> Like joining the Contributor FG
[01:24] <zkriesse> In that case I say +1 to making them open
[01:24] <cprofitt> yes... that is the intent
[01:24] <PabloRubianes> zkriesse, +1
[01:24] <cprofitt> then the core team -- will be those of us that are making the UBT run
[01:24] <zkriesse> There would still have to be some sort or leadership over them to ensure non-rampant craziness for lack of a better word
[01:24] <pleia2> yeah, I agree that they should be open
[01:24] <cprofitt> there may even be mentors who are not UBT members
[01:25] <cprofitt> if a Bug-Control member wants to mentor -- I see no reason to make them join the UBT
[01:25]  * nlsthzn gets shoved into the room
[01:25] <cprofitt> but if you want to work on the UBT core, work with teams, etc... that is the core UBT team
[01:25] <hakimsheriff> cprofitt, so to join the core team, you still need to go throught the long process?
[01:26] <PabloRubianes> cprofitt, but if mentor arent from the UBT what's the importance to have the team
[01:26] <cprofitt> you need to go through a process...
[01:26] <cprofitt> I would hope to not make it a long one
[01:26] <cprofitt> PabloRubianes: its to help organize the process - to make a single point of entry for new contributors
[01:26] <cprofitt> for new users
[01:27]  * zkriesse will return in a minute or two
[01:27] <cprofitt> many teams have no mentorship process
[01:27] <cprofitt> so for those teams we can help them develop one
[01:27] <PabloRubianes> cprofitt, sure but if mentors aren't part of the team I think the spirit will be lost with the time
[01:27] <cprofitt> for the teams that do have a mentorship process we can be a portal
[01:27] <cprofitt> PabloRubianes: perhaps
[01:28] <PabloRubianes> having people involve and contributing will lead to more members
[01:28] <MrChrisDruif> So in this new structure, being in the FG means that you'll get helped by a mentor if you want to...or that you mentor others?
[01:28] <cprofitt> I would actually hope that mentors that are not UBT members will see the value in the UBT and join, but to restrict a qualified mentor from helping because they are not a UBT member seems a bit foolish
[01:28] <cprofitt> being in a FG means you are either getting help or being a mentor
[01:29] <cprofitt> FGs will contain both
[01:29] <cprofitt> they would be open teams
[01:29] <cprofitt> to be a mentor will require membership in another team you are mentoring for... or approval to be a mentor by the UBT leadership
[01:29] <hakimsheriff> cprofitt, and if you want to be in the support fg than you dont really need to go through any process?
[01:29] <cprofitt> that process to become a mentor will not be a three month circus though
[01:30] <cprofitt> hakimsheriff: no FG will have a process
[01:30] <hakimsheriff> cprofitt, Great! :)
[01:30] <cprofitt> if you want to offer support to people you will not need to be a mentor though
[01:30] <cprofitt> you can just offer help
[01:30] <hakimsheriff> great!
[01:30] <cprofitt> if you want to mentor for bugs in the Contributor FG you would need to be a member of bug-control or approved by UBT leadership
[01:31] <cprofitt> some control on quality, but not some official process that takes weeks or months
[01:31] <PabloRubianes> cprofitt, maybe a good idea, but in my experience the richest part of joining the Ubuntu community was the "membership circus to UBT"
[01:32] <cprofitt> PabloRubianes: I hope that we can replace that 'richness' with the same feeling of accomplishment, but w/o the red tape and frustration some have felt
[01:32] <PabloRubianes> cprofitt, sure
[01:32]  * zkriesse is ack
[01:32] <cprofitt> the goal is to become a more integrated part of the greater community
[01:32] <cprofitt> PabloRubianes: what FGs did you become a part of?
[01:33] <PabloRubianes> cprofitt, LP and wiki on those days
[01:33]  * cprofitt nods
[01:33] <cprofitt> so... to take your use case
[01:33] <cprofitt> under the potential structure
[01:33] <cprofitt> you would join the contributor FG
[01:34] <cprofitt> learn how to contribute to the LP and Wiki teams
[01:34] <cprofitt> potentially get membership in the documentation team
[01:34] <cprofitt> become approved to be a mentor for the Contributor FG
[01:34] <cprofitt> and if you felt motivated and had time to devote join the UBT Core
[01:35] <MrChrisDruif> And for questions and mentoring you also join wiki FG?
[01:35] <cprofitt> the difference is you would not have to go through a 1-3 month process for joining the UBT before you could work on the documentation stuff
[01:35] <cprofitt> and join the FG
[01:35] <PabloRubianes> cprofitt, yes is a good idea
[01:35] <pleia2> sounds good
[01:36] <hakimsheriff> Great! ;)
[01:36] <cprofitt> pleia2: thanks....
[01:36] <cprofitt> I just hope it works...
[01:36] <cprofitt> the team has incredible potential
[01:36] <cprofitt> and some very energetic members
[01:36] <pleia2> it's the right direction based on feedback from folks I've spoken to
[01:36] <pleia2> as always we can adjust as needed :)
[01:36] <cprofitt> as always... we need to be agile :-)
[01:36] <cprofitt> so I will know more next week after the council meeting
[01:37] <cprofitt> and will post to the email list about that
[01:37] <cprofitt> the next topic is a tough one
[01:37] <cprofitt> one I would prefer not to be brining up, but I feel I must
[01:37] <cprofitt> [TOPIC] UBT leadership
[01:37] <MootBot> New Topic:  UBT leadership
[01:38] <cprofitt> I do not feel the council (regardless of membership or time) has been an effective leadership structure for the UBT
[01:38] <zkriesse> It sounds quite good
[01:38] <nlsthzn> how many people in the core UBT and how many people present in this meeting?
[01:39] <cprofitt> I think that primarily it is because the council was originally not given any real power and at many times council members were away for extended periods of time
[01:39] <cprofitt> nlsthzn: the UBT core does not exist yet
[01:39] <cprofitt> in the future the UBT core would likely be fairly small
[01:39] <cprofitt> and highly motivated
[01:39] <nlsthzn> cprofitt: sorry, then what I mean how many in the council and how many present in the meeting(s)?
[01:40] <cprofitt> there is no issue with people not being able to give lots of their time
[01:40] <pleia2> cprofitt: I think it's worth visiting what the team expects out of a leadership council/person/ewok, the role has changed significantly over the years
[01:40] <cprofitt> I am the only current council member that I am aware is at their keyboard
[01:40] <cprofitt> pleia2: I agree
[01:40] <zkriesse> +1 @ pleia2
[01:40] <cprofitt> others may be here via bouncers
[01:41] <zkriesse> I know for a fact that DarkwingDuck is almost never on IRC or anything else
[01:41] <MrChrisDruif> I've seen him from time to time zkriesse
[01:41] <cprofitt> the first real question -- is how do you feel about the leadership participation over the last 12-18 months
[01:41] <cprofitt> DarkWingDuck is currently busy for good reason
[01:41] <zkriesse> MrChrisDruif: meaning he's "on" but inactive IE bouncer or the similar
[01:41] <MrChrisDruif> I've only been around since December or something...
[01:41] <cprofitt> I will not fault him for that.
[01:42] <cprofitt> Duane as well
[01:42] <zkriesse> cprofitt: Oh I know he is I'm just commenting on active/non-active council members regardless of the reason
[01:42]  * cprofitt nods
[01:42] <pleia2> I think the members of the council have done the best they can, I think it's the expectations that need changing
[01:43]  * cprofitt nods
[01:43] <cprofitt> +1 pleia2
[01:43] <pleia2> almost by definition members of leadership councils tend to be the busiest people around
[01:43] <MrChrisDruif> I think the most important thing is that at least one council member should be contactable....via IRC, email or pidgin-carrier
[01:43]  * nlsthzn was just curious as he doesn't know the team/council/set up but wants to learn / help / assist
[01:43] <cprofitt> I agree... I think there was an expectation that the council was going to provide a huge amount of hands-on activity
[01:43] <PabloRubianes> and we all here have a real life out there
[01:43] <pleia2> (really, you should see the CC try to arrange a conference call for when none of us are traveling, it's literally not possible)
[01:44] <MrChrisDruif> For when you've got issues with something, or questions
[01:44] <cprofitt> MrChrisDruif: I think at that the council has been very good
[01:44] <cprofitt> we have had several full-scale rather involved issues the past 18 months that we have handled
[01:44] <cprofitt> and tried to keep negative side effects away from the team in general
[01:44] <MrChrisDruif> I know, I was just pointing out my number one for the council
[01:45] <zkriesse> I agree with pleia2 you guys have done a spot on job with all that you do,
[01:45] <cprofitt> pleia2: would it be fair to say that the team still bears the burden of providing direction and effort?
[01:46] <cprofitt> or is there some expected from the council on that?
[01:46] <pleia2> cprofitt: I feel that the leadership bears the burden of making sure the team feels empowered to pour effort and direction into their interests and goals
[01:46] <cprofitt> +1 pleia2
[01:46] <pleia2> I think there has been a lot of waiting around to see what we "should" be doing rather than just moving foward
[01:46] <zkriesse> +1 plars
[01:46] <zkriesse> argh tab fail, I meant pleia2
[01:47] <cprofitt> so the council should set the direction, clarify it when needed, resolve disputes and empower people to go!
[01:47] <pleia2> it should shift to leadership empowering and checking in to make sure FG leads and others are doing ok, not being the ones doing all the driving
[01:47]  * cprofitt nods
[01:47] <nlsthzn> we often mistake leaderhip for managment...
[01:47] <pleia2> nlsthzn: indeed
[01:47] <zkriesse> indeed
[01:47] <MrChrisDruif> +1 pleia2
[01:48] <cprofitt> alright...
[01:48] <cprofitt> it sounds as though we have a fairly good picture of what the council is expected to do from you guys
[01:49] <cprofitt> I will work to try to make that a reality
[01:49]  * pleia2 hugs cprofitt 
[01:49] <cprofitt> I do think, as pleia2 pointed out, that the true key to the UBT is going to be the FG leaders
[01:49] <MrChrisDruif> Indeed
[01:49] <cprofitt> they and their teams will be critical to success
[01:50] <pleia2> I'll be honest, the support team does a great job and I don't even know who their leaders are (are there leaders? I just give support when I'm around and give an answer)
[01:50] <pleia2> that's probably the way it should be
[01:50] <cprofitt> +1 pleia2
[01:50] <cprofitt> last topic
[01:50] <cprofitt> [TOPIC] Monthly meetings
[01:50] <MootBot> New Topic:  Monthly meetings
[01:50] <cprofitt> there is a suggestion to end monthly meetings of the general team...
[01:50] <MrChrisDruif> What about those meetings?
[01:51] <cprofitt> I am not sure about that, at least until the structure is set
[01:51] <cprofitt> and FGs are up and running
[01:51] <cprofitt> I can see it being a case of each FG having its own meetings
[01:51] <cprofitt> and FG leaders working with the council
[01:51] <cprofitt> -- do you guys think that would work
[01:51] <zkriesse> Well I did run weekly/bi-weekly wiki meetings and it seemed to work fairly well
[01:51] <pleia2> I still find them valuable for now (I don't think we should expect everyone to attend though, that's just setting us up for disappointment)
[01:51] <cprofitt> or would you prefer to have a FG meeting and a General Team meeting?
[01:52] <zkriesse> People showed up, we discussed wiki happenings/new stuff we could do, I posted results etc
[01:52] <cprofitt> +1 pleia2
[01:52] <cprofitt> +1 zkriesse
[01:52] <cprofitt> pleia2: I think a general team meeting is a must until the FG teams are established
[01:52] <cprofitt> after that -- I might consider not having a general team meeting...
[01:52] <pleia2> yeah, it can be talked about after that
[01:53] <cprofitt> but I still think a general team meeting has usefulness
[01:53] <cprofitt> that is just me
[01:53] <cprofitt> I also am sensitive to having too many meetings
[01:53] <MrChrisDruif> Yeah, true
[01:53]  * cprofitt nods
[01:53] <MrChrisDruif> Holland is famous for it...afaik
[01:54] <zkriesse> lol
[01:54] <cprofitt> I want to thank each of you for coming. Making the time to be present. For all the efforts you have put in to making Ubuntu and the Ubuntu community better.
[01:54] <MrChrisDruif> But I'm with the rest; general meetings until FG's are properly running
[01:54] <zkriesse> Hey, thanks to you man cprofitt
[01:54] <cprofitt> I hope that we all move this team forward and help it grow to its potential.
[01:54] <cprofitt> Thank You!!
[01:54]  * nlsthzn is happy to have seen the UBT in action...
[01:54] <MrChrisDruif> That would be awesome cprofitt :)
[01:54] <hakimsheriff> Goodbye everyone
[01:54] <zkriesse> bye hakimsheriff !
[01:54] <cprofitt> Please feel free to make comments too https://wiki.ubuntu.com/cprofitt/sandbox
[01:54] <pleia2> thanks cprofitt! :)
[01:55] <cprofitt> have a great night all
[01:55] <zkriesse> Great meeting cprofitt spot-on job
[01:55]  * hakimsheriff did nothing this meeting
[01:55] <cprofitt> #endmeeting
[01:55] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 19:55.
[01:55] <cprofitt> hakimsheriff: showing up is something
[01:55] <cprofitt> trust me
[01:55]  * MrChrisDruif is off to bed; sleep well everyone
[01:55] <zkriesse> bye  MrChrisDruif 1
[01:55]  * Unit193 gets one point for showing up
[01:55] <hakimsheriff> cprofitt, you are right, hehe
[01:57] <nlsthzn> Unit193: looses his point for showing up after the meeting has ended (or at the very least staying silent until then) ;)
[01:57] <Unit193> I never think I should speak at the first team meeting I attend
[01:59] <nlsthzn> Unit193: I noramlly only get to speak at the first one :p
[08:53] <MooDoo> hello all
[12:00] <barry> #startmeeting
[12:00] <MootBot> Meeting started at 06:00. The chair is barry.
[12:00] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[12:01] <barry> hello everyone and welcome to this week's udd steering meeting.  who's here today?
[12:01] <barry> [TOPIC] agenda
[12:01] <MootBot> New Topic:  agenda
[12:01] <barry> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DistributedDevelopment/20110615
[12:01] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DistributedDevelopment/20110615
[12:04] <jam> hello all
[12:04] <barry> jam: hi.  any sign of jelmer or poolie?
[12:04] <jam> jelmer was around earlier
[12:04] <jam> and poolie is at velocity conf
[12:04] <jam> so won't be here
[12:05]  * jelmer waves
[12:05] <barry> jelmer: hi!
[12:05] <barry> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DistributedDevelopment/20110615
[12:05] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DistributedDevelopment/20110615
[12:06] <barry> i guess we should start
[12:06] <barry> [TOPIC] action items
[12:06] <MootBot> New Topic:  action items
[12:06] <barry>    * jelmer to study the feasibility of merge helper ([[https://bugs.launchpad.net/bzr-builddeb/+bug/608675|bug 608675]]) as an intermediate step for quilt support
[12:06] <barry>  
[12:06] <jam> jelmer and I still have it in the queue, but he got pre-empted with getting Launchpad using bzr-2.3.3
[12:07] <barry> that's a good thing :)  np, we'll just carry it over
[12:07] <jam> so I would say, still in progress
[12:07] <jelmer> what John said :)
[12:08] <barry> fwiw, we had a lot of buzz about udd+quilt these past two weeks.  getting a good story here will go a long way toward satisfying experienced packagers
[12:08] <barry>    * poolie to send condensed summary of uds sessions
[12:08] <barry>  
[12:08] <barry> i'm not sure if this is still relevant, but we'll leave it on here until poolie gets back
[12:09] <barry>    * jelmer to look into [[https://bugs.launchpad.net/udd/+bug/609187|bug 609187]] (warn when package import is out of date)
[12:09] <jam> barry: same as above, I believe
[12:09] <barry> sure thing, np
[12:10] <jelmer> yep, both are in progress.. moving along slowly
[12:10] <barry> jelmer: no worries
[12:10] <barry> [TOPIC]  * How can we better handle "native" packages, e.g. lp:software-center vs. ubuntu:software-center?
[12:10] <MootBot> New Topic:   * How can we better handle "native" packages, e.g. lp:software-center vs. ubuntu:software-center?
[12:10] <jam> barry: this is, getting the package importer to play nicely when we also have upstream source?
[12:10] <barry> mvo brought this up, and i just wanted to put it on the agenda.  i think jelmer is familiar with the issue.
[12:11] <jam> or just packaging in general?
[12:11] <barry> the former
[12:11] <barry> the problem is that mvo gets lots of bogus merge proposals because they're against the wrong branch
[12:11] <jelmer> jam: in its simplest form, contributors sending in patches against the UDD branches while upstream uses a different branch
[12:12] <barry> this could be a launchpad issue, in that perhaps we need a way to say "don't mp against the source branch, use the upstream branch over here"
[12:12] <barry> but i'm not sure, so i'd love to get your thoughts!
[12:13] <jelmer> I think there's two sides to this - in the short term, we should make sure users get warned about not proposing mps against the udd branch
[12:13] <jam> jelmer: ah, that one
[12:13] <jelmer> perhaps that's related to bug 609187
[12:13] <jam> jelmer: is this to make 'lp-propose' determine the right target?
[12:13] <jelmer> jam: that's already happening afaik (proposing a packaging branch now goes against ubuntu:<package>)
[12:14] <barry> jam: well, i think there's also a bug out there that lp-propose doesn't work with source branches
[12:14] <jelmer> barry: it does, but that requires bzr 2.4
[12:14] <barry> jelmer: on the client side, or is server side support required?
[12:14] <jam> jelmer: what you brought up above, is that lp-propse should propose towards lp:package
[12:14] <jelmer> barry, client side
[12:14] <jam> (1:11:40 PM) jelmer: jam: in its simplest form, contributors sending in patches against the UDD branches while upstream uses a different branch
[12:14] <barry> jelmer: awesome!
[12:15] <jelmer> jam: I think the issue at heart is that there are two histories when really there should just be one
[12:15] <jelmer> the UDD branch is pointless if everybody should be using the upstream branch
[12:16] <barry> except that the upstream branch may have unreleased changes, and the packaging branch only has released changes, right?  but i guess the upstream branch can just be further along in that case
[12:16] <barry> (i.e. they'd share history)
[12:16] <jelmer> barry: Hmm, yeah
[12:16] <jelmer> barry, So I guess you'd want two branches but have related history
[12:17] <barry> and the packaging branches would be differenter for older distro versions
[12:17] <barry> jelmer: i think so
[12:17] <jam> barry, jelmer: that would be my understanding. The real trick is figuring out where the seams are
[12:18] <jam> what lp:package revision matches ubuntu:package @ rev-1.2.2
[12:18] <jelmer> jam: as the package is native, the upstream branch should have the correct tags already
[12:18] <jam> jelmer: if upstream does the tagging
[12:19] <jam> bzr does, but it doesn't use the debian syntax, AFAIK (maybe we do)
[12:19] <jam> I know some of the bzr plugins use "release-XXX"
[12:19] <jelmer> so we should have sufficient information to match things up, and there is a link in Launchpad from the packaging to the upstream branch
[12:19] <jam> and certainly, there is still the fact that *packaging artifacts* are in the packaging branch
[12:19] <jam> like "Makefile" vs "Makefile.in" changes
[12:20] <jam> (in bzr's case, bzr-2.3.3 won't have foo_pyx.c versioned, but it *is* in the tarball)
[12:20] <jelmer> jam: We'll likely still need the pristine tar revisions that add files like that, but they could have the upstream revision as one of their parents
[12:21] <jam> jelmer: sure. So at that point you just hope syntax matches?
[12:21] <jelmer> jam: that's how bzr-builddeb already works if you have an upstream branch specified - e.g. see one of the branches maintained by the pkg-bazaar team (http://bzr.debian.org/bzr/pkg-bazaar/bzr-svn/unstable)
[12:22] <barry> anyway, we don't have to solve it today, but i think it would be a useful thing to keep on the radar (not as critical as the other issues we've identified)
[12:22] <Riddell> for the immediate problem doesn't launchpad just need clearer wording on the packaging branch page to say that isn't where primary development happens?
[12:23] <Riddell> the general problem of matching upstream branch history and tags to packaging ones seems very hard to solve but not necessarily specific to software that happens to be developed in launchpad
[12:23] <barry> Riddell: i think part of the problem is that once you've done `bzr branch ubuntu:foo` you'll be working on the packaging branch, when upstream really wants to work against the upstream branch
[12:24] <barry> at least for the currently in-dev version of ubuntu
[12:24] <Riddell> barry: right, so launchpad needs clearer lableing there
[12:24] <jelmer> jam: upstream is on Launchpad in this case, so I think it's reasonable to ask them to use a particular syntax if they want related history in the UDD branch
[12:24] <barry> (e.g. `bzr branch ubuntu:natty/foo` still needs to give you the packaging branch)
[12:24] <barry> Riddell, jelmer agreed
[12:25] <jelmer> jam: It would be nice to create related history for arbitrary packages too (e.g. where upstream is in git), and the tag scheme can be pretty weird in some of those cases; I think we can leave that for another day
[12:25] <jam> Riddell: going further, the parallel import file-id issue means that patches against the packaging branch can't be merged into the upstream branch.
[12:26] <jam> jelmer: I was wondering if a 'similarity' metric would be reasonable (all files that are present have the same contents)
[12:26] <jam> it might be a bit expensive to compute across history, though
[12:26] <Riddell> I would propose filing a bug saying that packaging branch pages on code.lp.net should be better labeled
[12:27] <barry> Riddell: would you like to file that bug? :)
[12:27] <Riddell> can do
[12:28] <barry> Riddell: thanks
[12:29] <barry> [ACTION] Riddell to file bug saying that packaging branch pages on code.lp.net should be better labeled
[12:29] <MootBot> ACTION received:  Riddell to file bug saying that packaging branch pages on code.lp.net should be better labeled
[12:29] <barry> this leads me to the next topic:
[12:29] <barry> [TOPIC]  * Topics for Dublin
[12:29] <MootBot> New Topic:   * Topics for Dublin
[12:30] <barry> you guys will be in dublin right? (fsvo "you guys")
[12:30] <Riddell> my train is booked
[12:31] <jam> I'm scheduled
[12:31] <barry> nice.  i think it'll be a good opportunity to get the bzr+lp and platform guys together to discuss issues.  i'll send an email about it, but i wanted you to think of useful topics we might discuss or look into together
[12:32] <barry> [ACTION] barry to send email on dublin topics to platform and bazaar/lp mlists
[12:32] <MootBot> ACTION received:  barry to send email on dublin topics to platform and bazaar/lp mlists
[12:32] <barry> if you have anything in particular you'd like to get input on from platform folks, please send me email
[12:32] <barry> [TOPIC]  * Package importer progress
[12:32] <MootBot> New Topic:   * Package importer progress
[12:33] <barry> btw, thanks for fixing sysvinit!
[12:33] <barry> anything new on importer progress?
[12:33] <jam> barry: big kick in the crotch from launchpad removing ~ubuntu-branches support
[12:33] <jam> but I think there are workarounds for some patches now
[12:33] <jam> *for some projects*
[12:33] <barry> jam: yeah
[12:33] <jam> package-importer super-user status got revoked, but nobody supplied another way in
[12:34] <jam> that + planned downtime meant a rough week
[12:35] <jam> I think we are at 525 failures, which is up from 485 last week
[12:35] <barry> jam: is that the aftermath of the big backlog or are there new failures now?
[12:36] <jam> I'm guessing it is the ~ubuntu-branches thing, but I haven't followed it closely to know what 40 packages are now failing
[12:36] <jam> that weren't before
[12:37] <barry> jam: what's the longer term solution?
[12:38] <jam> [LINK] https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad/+bug/797088/comments/1
[12:38] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad/+bug/797088/comments/1
[12:39] <jam> just says there may be a code solution
[12:39] <jam> which sounds like "don't create old branches if the series is now frozen"
[12:39] <jam> "<flacoste> obsolete is obsolete"
[12:39] <jam> though IMO, if we import them to get good history, we might as well publish that history
[12:40] <barry> jam: thanks.  i've subscribed
[12:40] <jelmer> jam: yeah, they're particularly useful when e.g. creating SRUs for older distroseries
[12:41] <barry> jelmer: which, imo, is a very important use case to preserve
[12:41] <jam> I'm not sure how obsolete things have to be for it to fail
[12:41] <jam> It seems to need to be a new package with old history
[12:42] <jam> though fixing bugs in the importer allowing it to import something that used to fail
[12:42] <jam> would suck to trip over this
[12:42] <jam> from what I understand, flacoste wants to strictly have the importer use the Ubuntu upload rights
[12:43] <jam> (so the importer can publish a branch, if an equivalent developer could upload a .deb )
[12:43] <jam> but that doesn't seem to account for the fact that a developer *did* upload .deb or the importer wouldn't have anything to do.
[12:44] <jelmer> jam: I think the UDD branches should reflect what's in the archive as much as possible; only allowing updates where an ubuntu developer would be able to do an upload means we'll have more out of date branches.
[12:45] <barry> jelmer: i completely agree
[12:45] <jam> jelmer: it sounds like the failure isn't as much about updating a branch, as *creating* one.
[12:45] <jam> but I don't understand everything being said, either
[12:45] <jam> and I'm proxying flacoste from about 20 lines of text :)
[12:46] <barry> cool, let's move on
[12:46] <barry> [TOPIC] bugs of interest
[12:46] <MootBot> New Topic:  bugs of interest
[12:46] <jam> barry: see above
[12:46] <barry> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~mbp/kanban/canonical-bazaar-kanban.html
[12:46] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~mbp/kanban/canonical-bazaar-kanban.html
[12:47] <jam> [link] https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad/+bug/797088
[12:47] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad/+bug/797088
[12:47] <barry> jam: yep, thanks
[12:47] <barry> anything in the kanban that folks want to point out?
[12:47] <jam> there were 2 new bugs in bzr from maxb
[12:47] <jam> let me check
[12:47] <jam> bug #796751
[12:48] <jam> bug #796748
[12:48] <jam> [LINK] https://launchpad.net/bugs/796748
[12:48] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://launchpad.net/bugs/796748
[12:48] <jam> [LINK] https://launchpad.net/bugs/796751
[12:48] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://launchpad.net/bugs/796751
[12:48] <jam> That was failing "live-build" to be imported
[12:48] <barry> i remember seeing that one float by
[12:50] <barry> [TOPIC] any other business?
[12:50] <MootBot> New Topic:  any other business?
[12:50] <maxb> To confirm the speculation from earlier: Yes, the jump in the failure count is the fault of the LP permissions shenanigans
[12:51] <barry> maxb: thanks.  i hope that gets resolved soon
[12:51] <maxb> On the plus side, flacoste did imply he was going to be fixing it somewhat todayy
[12:51] <barry> okay then, on that note, i think we're done
[12:51] <barry> #endmeeting
[12:52] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 06:51.
[12:52] <barry> thanks everyone and see you in dublin
[12:52] <jam> thanks, have a good day barry
[12:52] <barry> jam: you too!
[15:59]  * slangasek waves
[15:59]  * ScottK stares
[15:59]  * slangasek flinches
[15:59]  * ScottK takes a break.
[16:00]  * MooDoo has a kitkat
[16:00]  * stgraber waves
[16:00] <cjwatson> PEACE AND LOVE
[16:00]  * bdmurray waves
[16:00] <cjwatson> (um, I wonder if that's UK specific)
[16:00] <mvo> hello
[16:00] <jhunt_> o/
[16:00] <barry> howdy
[16:00] <slangasek> cjwatson: I think so, the closest I come is Trigun which inverts it :)
[16:01] <slangasek> #startmeeting
[16:01] <MootBot> Meeting started at 10:01. The chair is slangasek.
[16:01] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[16:01] <cjwatson> there was a KitKat ad in the UK which included Daleks wandering around a shopping centre shouting PEACE AND LOVE
[16:01] <slangasek> hah
[16:01] <cjwatson> also GIVE US A CUDDLE
[16:01] <slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
[16:01] <MootBot> New Topic:  Lightning round
[16:01] <slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e cjwatson barry doko csurbhi stgraber jhunt mvo ev vorlon bdmurray)
[16:01] <slangasek> barry ev vorlon csurbhi cjwatson stgraber jhunt doko mvo bdmurray
[16:01] <barry> bug 659738 (double motd banner sru); bug 791221 (and upstream 12248) though __dir__ change won't be reverted or fixed for 2.7.2; foundations-o-dhpython-transitions: verified wiki docs and converted some packages, emailed ubuntu-devel, planning bug jam with dholbach; foundations-o-python-versions: py3 cd size calculations; review and comment on email6 design docs; had a chat w/mvo and bzr guys about upstream vs. packaging branchs; py3.3
[16:01] <barry> packaging tests re: debian-python discussions; planning namespace packages sprint; udd stakeholders meeting.  done.
[16:04] <slangasek> barry: what do you find as a rough number for python 3 CD consumption?
[16:05] <barry> slangasek: did you see my email of a little while ago?
[16:05] <slangasek> ev: hi, you're next :)
[16:05] <slangasek> barry: when I look at my mailbox, yes!
[16:05] <slangasek> :)
[16:05] <barry> :-D
[16:07] <slangasek> ev: ?
[16:10] <ev> yikes, apols
[16:10] <ev> went to make tea
[16:10] <ev> - At the QA Test Automation sprint all week.  Lots of good discussion around
[16:10] <ev>   how we're going to bring all of our disparate test systems under one roof
[16:10] <ev>   and getting fed into one place that can data mined (with plans for a fancy
[16:10] <ev>   PHB-friendly web frontend in +1).  If you're doing any kind of automated
[16:10] <ev>   testing that we don't already know about, please do let Pete Graner know.
[16:10] <ev>   He'll be asking again at the sprint.
[16:10] <ev> - Started to get the installer netbook test farm up and running with Oneiric.
[16:10] <ev>   AT-SPI2 or LTP seem to be broken right now. Yay.
[16:10] <ev> - Working with Christian to define the new Wubi experience.  He's now provided
[16:10] <ev>   some wireframes and we're waiting on pixel-perfect mockups from Otto.
[16:10] <ev> - Worked with Christian to get a HTML5 animation to potentially replace the
[16:10] <ev>   slideshow defined and quoted.  Meeting with Iain to talk about a similar
[16:10] <ev>   project that he's involved with.  Doesn't appear to be immediate overlap,
[16:10] <ev>   but we'll need to work closely for a consistent experience.
[16:10] <ev> - Looked into how we can wedge WebKit into Wubi for the slideshow.  Talked it
[16:10] <ev>   over with the U1 guys while they were here.  They suggested Qt, which might
[16:10] <ev>   also help us with the styling, though I'll have to see how well the Python
[16:10] <ev>   bindings are working in Windows, and if it's very invasive or balloons the
[16:10] <ev>   size.  The other option is to use chromiumembedded.
[16:10] <ev> - Currently looking at the Jolicloud Express installer with Christian.  This
[16:10] <ev>   appears to be based off Wubi, but I can't find the source code anywhere.
[16:10] <ev>   Will probably have to contact them.
[16:10] <ev> - Writing a wireless network connection page for Ubiquity using the new
[16:10] <ev>   NetworkManager 0.7 DBus API.  Happy to get back to bindings that actually
[16:10] <ev>   work. :)
[16:10] <ev> - Presented a modified installation success and failure measurement proposal
[16:10] <ev>   to the Technical Board.
[16:10] <ev> - Did some requirements gathering around the DX team moving their Jenkins
[16:10] <ev>   stuff running on Neil's hardware into the QA datacenter we're building.
[16:10] <ev>   Entertained the idea of building a CD out of the resulting DEBs for Unity
[16:10] <ev>   and friends, then doing testing with it, so that we can catch more problems
[16:10] <ev>   before things hit cdimage.
[16:10] <ev> - Looked into WebKitGtk DOM support, in the hopes of putting the
[16:10] <ev>   success/failure recording checkbox inside the slideshow, and personally to
[16:10] <ev>   investigate the current feasibility of moving away from the GTK+ nightmare.
[16:11] <ev> - Looked into alternatives to kvm-autotest, found none (well, VirtualBox has
[16:11] <ev>   a COM API, but yeah, COM). Found a half-decent writeup on trying
[16:11] <ev>   kvm-autotest in Ubuntu, will have to give that a go.
[16:11] <ev> TODO:
[16:11] <ev> - Need to get quotes for mini-itx hardware for moving the installer testing
[16:11] <ev>   into the QA datacenter.  Need to then modify the existing framework to use
[16:11] <ev>   remote power (yay) instead of its suspend/resume bodge.
[16:11] <ev> - Try to get Robert's oops-repository up and running as a quick first cut of
[16:11] <ev>   an automatic crash database. Learn Cassandra and Solr in the process.
[16:11] <ev> - Finish hacking on local Mozilla Input (reporter).
[16:11] <ev> (done)
[16:11] <jhunt_> ev: wow - you must drink strong tea! :)
[16:12] <ev> oh, I type those up while you're all yammering in the mumble thing ;)
[16:12] <ev> but yes, Petra has kindly stocked every tea imaginable
[16:12] <ev> and we have honey now
[16:12] <ev> I might just start sleeping here
[16:14] <barry> hey mvo, maybe it's time to move to london for the tea? :)
[16:14] <slangasek> heh
[16:14] <mvo> ev: woah, impressive list! what is the result of the gtk / webkit inverstigations
[16:14] <mvo> barry: heh :) indeed
[16:15] <slangasek> what's "Mozilla Input (reporter)"?
[16:15] <ev> mvo: it definitely supports it now, but the GIR bindings don't expose it (though that seems to be a bug - surprise, surprise)
[16:15] <ev> I was investigating further, but then I ran out of disk space and time, thanks to the webkit build process
[16:16] <slangasek> ah, I'm sure that won't give any problems at all including it in wubi ;)
[16:16] <ev> slangasek: http://input.mozilla.com/en-US/ - so the idea is that we'd use that as a basis for the "why are you quitting ubiquity" and success/failure tracking
[16:16] <mvo> ev: heh, ok :) keep me updated on this, I'm also interessted in this problem space!
[16:16] <ev> mvo: definitely will do
[16:16] <ev> slangasek: ;)
[16:17] <slangasek> ev: ok, cool
[16:17] <ev> oh, and I'll need visual studio if we end up having to go the chromiumembedded route
[16:17] <ev> so I'm also keen to hear what Pete says there :)
[16:17] <slangasek> ok, me next
[16:18] <slangasek> merging dpkg 1.16.0.3 into oneiric (one heckuva merge!); will follow after with an SRU
[16:18] <slangasek> trying to keep pace with all the library merges turning into syncs because of multiarch landing in Debian (thanks doko for getting us bootstrapped!)
[16:18] <slangasek> updates needed for the natty multiarch ppa to keep pace with security updates
[16:18] <slangasek> preparations for rally plenaries
[16:18] <slangasek> doing some work on archive NEW processing, as we have a bit of a backlog
[16:18] <slangasek> EOF
[16:18] <slangasek> questions?
[16:19] <slangasek> psurbhi:
[16:19] <psurbhi> *) Changed code for the initctl "pivot" command according to the review received from Scott. Tested and debugged this on the pilot event based initramfs. Sent out the updated diff for the same on upstart-devel ml.
[16:19] <psurbhi> *) done.
[16:20] <slangasek> whee
[16:20] <slangasek> psurbhi: will there be test packages in a ppa that make use of this?
[16:21] <psurbhi> yes, if and when this gets accepted, i will make a ppa with this
[16:21] <psurbhi> for testing
[16:21] <psurbhi> hopefully that should be soon enough
[16:21] <slangasek> ok, cool
[16:21] <jhunt_> psurbhi: once I've merged Upstart 1.3 into Ubuntu, that will make the ppa work a lot easier :)
[16:22] <psurbhi> jhunt_, yes! thats true
[16:22] <slangasek> cjwatson:
[16:22] <cjwatson> Done:
[16:22] <cjwatson>  * Landed live-build for all architectures and flavours.  Still working through a handful of build failures / misbuilds caused by it.  Nobody else has dared to touch it yet. :-)
[16:22] <cjwatson>  * Started work on converting to hybrid ISO/USB images.  Trying to figure out why they're coming out 5MB bigger - xorriso upstream thinks it's partly their bug, but a lot of it may be intrinsic.
[16:22] <cjwatson>  * Started work on enabling Lubuntu; landed LP change, but awaiting deployment of that plus more disk space on antimony.
[16:22] <cjwatson>  * Fixing bug 796865 (parted breakage from Linux 3.0).
[16:22] <cjwatson>  * Some sorting out of the canonical-foundations bug queue.  More to do - expect assignments ...
[16:22] <cjwatson> --
[16:23] <cjwatson> I think that 5MB figure scales according to the number of files in the image; I was testing on server, so I expect it'll be less bad on desktop but haven't tried yet
[16:24] <stgraber> ok, now that MootBot is back :)
[16:24] <stgraber> Mostly spent the week working on Arkose.
[16:24] <stgraber> Finished the rewrite to python, ported to LXC, ported the existing tools to the new backend, implemented X, dbus and pulseaudio support.
[16:24] <stgraber> Released 1.0 yesterday: http://www.stgraber.org/2011/06/14/app-containing-on-the-modern-linux-desktop/
[16:25] <stgraber> Now getting some feedback and working on a todolist (mostly bugfixes) for 1.1.
[16:25] <stgraber> Did some python3 conversion (arkose and one ltsp script)
[16:25] <stgraber> Documented the pre-upload process (just a final checklist) for extras.ubuntu.com.
[16:25] <stgraber> TODO:
[16:25] <stgraber> Going to do another batch of IPv6 tests this week (DHCPv6 + NetworkManager didn't work too well last time)
[16:25] <stgraber> I also have the new sssd to upload to the archive now that ding-libs is there.
[16:25] <stgraber> Some merges to do.
[16:25] <stgraber> (done)
[16:25] <jhunt_> Discussion and thought on Upstart job "aliases" (currently being worked
[16:25] <jhunt_> on by Marc Dahlhaus). Design work on disabling Upstart jobs +
[16:25] <jhunt_> "chkconfig-like" tool (ongoing - quite intractable). Cookbook updates.
[16:25] <jhunt_> Looked at bug 27520 briefly (need to look further). Wrote
[16:25] <jhunt_> "shutdown.conf" for handling stopping of Upstart jobs at system shutdown
[16:25] <jhunt_> (needs testing). Worked with Keybuk last night to release Upstart 1.3.
[16:25] <jhunt_> Merging Upstart 1.3 into Ubuntu (in progress). TODO: ongoing blueprint
[16:25] <jhunt_> work + merge (new) outstanding branches into lp:upstart.
[16:25] <jhunt_> ✔
[16:28] <slangasek> I don't know if I'm the only one, but "chkconfig-like" just gets under my skin... I hate the name chkconfig :-)
[16:29] <slangasek> jhunt_: you left "released upstart 1.3" off that list!  Congratulations :)
[16:29] <slangasek> doko:
[16:29] <doko> - long weekend
[16:29] <doko> - some more multiarch GCC fixes
[16:29] <doko> - prepare packages for the Linaro 2011-06 releases
[16:29] <doko> - investigate libnih test failures on ARM (thumb/armv7/-Os issues)
[16:29] <doko> - evaluate JamVM test rebuild failures
[16:29] <doko> - some JamVM "spec" upates
[16:29] <doko> - found some packages never built in natty and oneiric
[16:29] <doko> - python updates
[16:29] <doko> - convert lsb to Python3 to get it on the images
[16:29] <doko> - merges
[16:29] <doko> - will be offline this Friday (travelling to London, not for tea, just for the Google GCC gathering)
[16:29] <doko> - will work from the London office on Monday
[16:29] <jhunt_> slangasek: +1. name is silly :)
[16:29] <doko> - slacking on mir's component-mismatches, nbs, and build failures
[16:30] <jhunt_> slangasek: 1.3 is in the list, but thanks :)
[16:30] <doko> done
[16:30] <slangasek> jhunt_: oh, my speed reading skills are failing
[16:31] <mvo> shorter week, loooong weekend (mon, tue off)
[16:31] <mvo> software-center: lots of software-center 5.0 planning calls/mails with the design team, review/merge lp:~osomon/software-center/qml, lp:~aaronp/software-center/tests,  lp:~aaronp/software-center/fix-794060-for-4.0 and upload SRU
[16:31] <mvo> unattended-upgrades: move to dh7, ove to dh_python2, build unified package for both debian and ubuntu, request sync, debug incorrect/missing use of ddtp translations (#434601)
[16:31] <mvo> command-not-found: work on lp:~mvo/command-not-found/py3
[16:31] <mvo> misc: review/merge lp:~j-johan-edwards/archive-crawler/misc_bugs
[16:31] <mvo> update-manager: add unity progress support basic on the work of cdbs (thanks!)
[16:31] <mvo> python: move a bunch of packages to dh_python2
[16:31] <mvo> oem: debug synpatic crash on arm system
[16:31] <mvo> squid-deb-proxy: improve debconf handling, upload new 0.5 version
[16:31] <mvo> apt: work on debian-experimental code (preparing tihs for oneiric), work on lp:~mvo/apt/add-lib-pkg
[16:31] <mvo> (done)
[16:31] <bdmurray> wrote an apport package hook for software-center
[16:31] <bdmurray> adding in more information to pkg status pages on qa.ubuntu.com (fixing LP: #794256, #794260)
[16:31] <bdmurray> apport branch to include /var in generic.py free disk checks
[16:31] <barry> mvo: dhpy2 ftw!
[16:31] <slangasek> doko: have you seen pitti's new thing that notifies ubuntu-release as soon as new component-mismatches happen?  Do you know if that's having an effect?
[16:31] <mvo> barry++
[16:32] <bdmurray> prepared a debdiff and test case for SRU of fix for LP: #346386 for natty - apt and broken packages index file
[16:32] <bdmurray> modification of ml-important-bugs to take a number of days so I can have a good dashboard over a weekend
[16:32] <bdmurray> updated my launchpad development virtual machine so I could start working on a Launchpad bug
[16:32] <bdmurray> working on fixing Launchpad bug LP: #787294 regarding searchTasks and structural subscribers
[16:32] <bdmurray> fixed team-assigned-bug-tasks in ubuntu-qa-tools
[16:32] <doko> slangasek: no, didn't see it
[16:32] <bdmurray> (done)
[16:32] <slangasek> doko: and are you publishing a list of these packages never built in natty or oneiric?
[16:32] <mvo> bdmurray: \o/ for #346386
[16:33] <doko> component-mismatches, on irc or ml?
[16:33] <cjwatson> ml
[16:33] <doko> slangasek: no, didn't plan to. just while looking at the JamVM build failures
[16:33] <doko> hmm, I'm not subscribed to the ml
[16:34] <slangasek> I'm happy to see that there does seem to be a consensus now in Debian about using dh_python2 as The Helper
[16:35] <barry> slangasek: indeed.  i think we're actually not far from deprecating pysupport
[16:35] <slangasek> doko: might as well publish the list of non-built packages, even if it's just a quick email to ubuntu-devel: "Here are these things that are broken, maybe we should do something with them"
[16:36] <doko> well, I don't care how many helpers we have, if somebody would state what is wanted about public modules, e.g. one site dir, no file creation on install time, working debug packages,etc
[16:37] <doko> slangasek: ok, have to find out how to get this list
[16:37] <cjwatson> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/transitions/dh-python2.html first cut, probably horrendously wrong
[16:37] <slangasek> doko: I still care how many helpers we have, because it makes our packaging documentation worse... but yes, the policy regarding behavior is fundamentally more important
[16:37] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/transitions/dh-python2.html first cut, probably horrendously wrong
[16:37] <cjwatson> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/transitions/dh-python2.txt should be parseable, more or less
[16:37] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/transitions/dh-python2.txt should be parseable, more or less
[16:38] <barry> wasn't ScottK working on an update to the debian python policy?
[16:38] <barry> cjwatson: thanks!
[16:38] <slangasek> "Dependency level 31", heh
[16:39] <slangasek> barry: certainly - but the policy has always trailed consensus
[16:39] <slangasek> [TOPIC] Rally planning
[16:39] <MootBot> New Topic:  Rally planning
[16:39] <barry> yep
[16:39] <barry> cjwatson: i'll review after lunch
[16:39] <ScottK> barry: On my TODO.
[16:39] <slangasek> only a week and $twiddle to the Dublin Rally
[16:39] <cjwatson> yeah, shouldn't expect the dep levels are relevant in this case
[16:39] <barry> ScottK: thanks.  would love to talk about it later (or on the ml)
[16:40] <slangasek> if there are topics you want to cover that week with the group, or with folks from other teams, please document them on https://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuEngineering/Rally/Oneiric/Foundations
[16:40] <slangasek> (and say who it is you need, if it's someone on another team)
[16:41] <slangasek> also, the URL has changed, so hmph
[16:41] <slangasek> :)
[16:42] <slangasek> Also also: I expect everyone on the team to be able to come up with at least one agenda item for the rally to be added to that page, since none of you is working in a vacuum :P
[16:42] <slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
[16:42] <MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
[16:42] <slangasek> what else is new and hoopy?
[16:42] <slangasek> who has invented a new compression algorithm that will let us fit our images on CDs again?
[16:42] <ScottK> The component mismatch mails are very nice.
[16:43] <ev> I've got a good one if you don't care about data integrity
[16:43]  * slangasek xors packages together and stores the result
[16:43] <jhunt_> I've got a good one too, but it relies on being able to factorize large primes... :)
[16:44] <ScottK> python-defaults with 2.7 as default is in Debian Experimental.  Our Oneiric package is based on that.
[16:44] <cjwatson> oh, I ported ubiquity to dh_python2, forgot to mention
[16:44] <cjwatson> except for the build failure which is fixed in bzr
[16:45] <barry> when porting to dhpy2, are you guys submittodebian the changes?
[16:45] <cjwatson> I didn't since ubiquity is Ubuntu-specific :)
[16:45] <slangasek> yep
[16:45] <barry> cjwatson: right :)
[16:45] <mvo> I do
[16:45] <slangasek> I submitted mine, whichever one it was (I forget now)
[16:45] <slangasek> there was already an open bug; now it has a patch
[16:45] <barry> slangasek: \o/
[16:46] <slangasek> gwibber or pitivi, I think it was
[16:46] <cjwatson> http://udd.debian.org/cgi-bin/ubuntu_usertag.cgi stats on submittodebian (or equivalent) contributions, for those who don't know about them
[16:46] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://udd.debian.org/cgi-bin/ubuntu_usertag.cgi stats on submittodebian (or equivalent) contributions, for those who don't know about them
[16:46] <cjwatson> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Debian/Usertagging
[16:47] <slangasek> is that open bugs only?
[16:47] <slangasek> wow, I've submitted a lot of those
[16:48] <cjwatson> I think that's all bugs, not certain
[16:49] <slangasek> the sums don't work out with the last table, must be open bugs only
[16:49] <cjwatson> hm, ok (though the last table's only for those with >5 bugs)
[16:49] <slangasek> right, but the last table shows at least 4000 bugs :)
[16:50] <slangasek> ok... anything else?
[16:50]  * slangasek raises the gavel ponderously
[16:50] <slangasek> #endmeeting
[16:50] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:50.
[16:50] <cjwatson> http://anonscm.debian.org/viewvc/collab-qa/udd/web/cgi-bin/ubuntu_usertag.cgi?view=markup
[16:51] <slangasek> thanks, all!
[16:51] <mvo> thanks
[16:51] <stgraber> thanks!
[16:51] <jhunt_> thanks!
[16:51] <ev> thanks
[16:52] <barry> thanks!
[16:52] <slangasek> cjwatson: huh, that code seems to contradict my claim
[16:52] <psurbhi> thanks all! :)
[17:58]  * pedro_ waves
[18:01] <pedro_> anybody around for the qa meeting? :-)
[18:01] <pedro_> hggdh, jibel, bdmurray ?
[18:01] <bdmurray> pedro_: I'm here
[18:01] <hggdh> ~ô~
[18:01] <hggdh> :-)
[18:02] <jibel> aloha
[18:02] <pedro_> alright lets start
[18:02] <pedro_> #startmeeting
[18:02] <MootBot> Meeting started at 12:02. The chair is pedro_.
[18:02] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[18:03] <pedro_> As always the agenda is available at : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings
[18:03] <pedro_> [TOPIC] Previous Actions
[18:03] <MootBot> New Topic:  Previous Actions
[18:03] <pedro_> there's only 1 action:
[18:03] <pedro_> * bdmurray further research into the quantity of bug reports containing workarounds
[18:03] <pedro_> bdmurray, do you have any news on that?
[18:04] <bdmurray> pedro_: oops, no I don't
[18:04] <pedro_> ok lets keep it there for the next meeting
[18:04] <pedro_> [TOPIC] Community Efforts/Testing
[18:04] <MootBot> New Topic:  Community Efforts/Testing
[18:04] <pedro_> jibel, hggdh any news on that topic?
[18:05] <hggdh> pedro_: not from here (apart from triaging community bugs ;-)
[18:05] <jibel> business as usual on the sru side, apart from that not much from me
[18:06] <pedro_> ah on the sru side, there's a firefox 5 upgrade for Natty so if you guys can test that and provide feedback that'd be great
[18:07] <pedro_> bug for that is bug 294187
[18:07] <pedro_> and new lang pack is around as well
[18:08] <pedro_> testing is always appreciated for the SRU so if you have some time have a look to  : http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/pending-sru.html and help us with that queue
[18:08] <pedro_> any questions?
[18:09] <pedro_> [TOPIC] Automated/Systems Testing
[18:09] <MootBot> New Topic:  Automated/Systems Testing
[18:09] <pedro_> looks like patrick is not around, jibel hggdh do you know anything on the topic?
[18:10] <hggdh> patrick *is* around...
[18:10] <hggdh> he is logging in now
[18:10] <hggdh> (sitting two chairs to my right, in fact)
[18:10] <pedro_> ok
[18:10] <pedro_> patrickmw, hello , anything new to share on the  Automated/Systems Testing side?
[18:11] <patrickmw> not really.  this week has been mostly planning
[18:12] <pedro_> alright
[18:12] <pedro_> lets go for the next topic
[18:12] <pedro_> [TOPIC] Engineering Team Bug Status
[18:12] <MootBot> New Topic:  Engineering Team Bug Status
[18:12] <pedro_> bdmurray anything to share?
[18:13] <hggdh> not from here, yet -- just planning, and testing oneiric
[18:13] <bdmurray> I've written an apport package hook for software-center
[18:14] <bdmurray> added in more information to pkg status pages on qa.ubuntu.com (fixing LP: #794256, #794260)
[18:14] <bdmurray> apport has been updated to also check /var for free space before reporting package installation failures
[18:15] <bdmurray> I'm also working on an SRU for bug 346386
[18:15] <bdmurray> that's the most interesting stuff
[18:15] <bdmurray> ...
[18:15] <pedro_> cool! thanks
[18:16] <pedro_> bdmurray, talking about qa.ubuntu.com , do you know what happened with status.qa.ubuntu.com? kamusin ping me the other day and he noticed it's missing some packages
[18:17] <bdmurray> pedro_: do you have a specific package?  a merge might have gone awry
[18:17] <pedro_> for example if you click on Gnome you'll see empathy in the list
[18:17] <pedro_> where in the previous version more packages like evolution where there
[18:18] <pedro_> s/where/were
[18:18] <bdmurray> heh
[18:18] <bdmurray> if you click on bugpattern-needed you'll see a bunch more
[18:19] <bdmurray> I'll sort it out but for future reference bugs about ubuntu-qa-website would help
[18:19] <pedro_> bdmurray,  ok will recommend that , thanks!
[18:20] <pedro_> You might have noticed that tomorrow we're having a bug day for Totem, so if you use it or you just want to learn a bit more , please join us https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20110616
[18:21] <pedro_> there's plenty of bugs waiting to be triaged and yes you can even watch a movie while doing the triage work
[18:21] <pedro_> so remember, tomorrow the *whole* day your timezone, we use the  #ubuntu-bugs  channel to discuss the triage so be around
[18:22] <pedro_> [TOPIC] Other Topics
[18:22] <MootBot> New Topic:  Other Topics
[18:22] <pedro_> anything else to announce, discuss, etc ?
[18:23] <pedro_> seems not , ok
[18:23] <pedro_> [TOPIC] Chair Selection
[18:23] <MootBot> New Topic:  Chair Selection
[18:23] <pedro_> looks like patrickmw already volunteered ?
[18:23] <patrickmw> yes
[18:23] <pedro_> patrickmw, ok thanks !
[18:24] <pedro_> alright folks, thanks for attending
[18:24] <pedro_> #endmeeting
[18:24] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:24.