[18:05] <jdstrand> hi!
[18:06] <mdeslaur> hello!
[18:06] <jjohansen> hey
[18:07] <jdstrand> #startmeeting
[18:07] <MootBot> Meeting started at 12:07. The chair is jdstrand.
[18:07] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[18:07] <jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
[18:07] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
[18:07] <jdstrand> [TOPIC] Review of any previous action items
[18:07] <MootBot> New Topic:  Review of any previous action items
[18:07] <kees> \o
[18:07] <jdstrand> there are none from our last meeting
[18:07] <jdstrand> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
[18:07] <MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly stand-up report
[18:07] <jdstrand> I'll go first
[18:08] <jdstrand> I have a pending update
[18:08] <jdstrand> a lot of email to get through (still behind)
[18:08] <jdstrand> I've got another training session this week
[18:08] <jdstrand> I need to prepare for the rally
[18:08] <jdstrand> and (finally, for real) talk with jjohansen about dbus/apparmor
[18:09]  * jdstrand hugs jjohansen 
[18:09] <jdstrand> that's it from me
[18:09] <jjohansen> hehe
[18:09] <jdstrand> kees: you're up (and welcome back!)
[18:10] <kees> thanks!
[18:10] <kees> well, I will be catching up for a while. I'm also on triage, and will be continuing to review some of the kernel CVE states with apw
[18:10] <kees> things are in good shape overall, though. lots of stuff in pending. :)
[18:11] <kees> that's it from me.
[18:12] <jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up
[18:12] <mdeslaur> my turn?
[18:12] <mdeslaur> hehe
[18:12] <mdeslaur> So, I'm off thursday and friday
[18:12] <jdstrand> kees: re pending> that's great news. I know everyone has been working hard on that
[18:13] <jdstrand> :)
[18:13] <mdeslaur> until then, I plan on figuring out how to test the logrotate updates I've prepared
[18:13] <mdeslaur> and will continue going down the list of CVEs
[18:13] <mdeslaur> that's it from me
[18:14] <jdstrand> sbeattie: you're up
[18:14] <sbeattie> I'm on community this week.
[18:15] <sbeattie> I have an issue to followup with upstream on re: last week's openjdk update
[18:15] <sbeattie> I also have 2 embargoed issues that I'm working on.
[18:16] <sbeattie> and I need to spend a bit of time prepping for the rally.
[18:16] <sbeattie> That's it for me.
[18:16] <jdstrand> micahg: you're next
[18:16] <micahg> I have Mozilla updates this week (hopefully going out tomorrow) including the Firefox 5 transition in Natty
[18:17] <micahg> I expect a chromium update this week since it's been a while
[18:17] <micahg> then webkitgtk 1.2.7 time permitting
[18:17] <micahg> I think that's it
[18:18] <jdstrand> cool
[18:18] <jdstrand> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
[18:18] <MootBot> New Topic:  Miscellaneous and Questions
[18:19] <jdstrand> as micahg mentioned, he is doing a mozilla 5.0 transition in natty this week. it would be good if all of us could be running the new firefox packages in -proposed (I mention -proposed cause there are langpacks in -proposed hat aren't in the ubuntu-mozilla-security ppa)
[18:20] <jdstrand> I started testing this morning, and it seems solid
[18:20] <jdstrand> I think sbeattie has been running it for a while
[18:20] <jdstrand> anyhoo, feel free to test :)
[18:20] <kees> cool, will do
[18:20] <jdstrand> (thanks for that sbeattie)
[18:20] <sbeattie> yeah been running it since last weekend, I got it through -proposed.
[18:20] <sbeattie> err s/weekend/week/
[18:21] <jdstrand> one thing that I noticed over the weekend was arkose (http://www.stgraber.org/2011/06/14/app-containing-on-the-modern-linux-desktop/) which is stgraber's lxc work
[18:23] <jdstrand> it sounds interesting and I'd like for our team to talk with stgraber and wendar next week tolearn more about it, see how it can work with apparmor, and what we as apparmor upstream can learn or take from his approach. also to see how this might tie into ARB
[18:23] <jdstrand> I don't expect any new work items per se, but maybe info sharing and inspiration
[18:24] <jdstrand> mdeslaur: I noticed that you marked the apparmor profiles wiki page as 'done'. where is that?
[18:25] <mdeslaur> jdstrand: http://wiki.apparmor.net/index.php/Main_Page#Profiles
[18:26] <jdstrand> mdeslaur: cool-- do you have a plan on when you are going to announce it?
[18:26] <mdeslaur> jdstrand: nope
[18:26] <jdstrand> mdeslaur: would it be worthwhile talking about that next week?
[18:27] <mdeslaur> I was debating whether it should be on a standalone page, so the url will be better once I add it to the user space tools
[18:27] <mdeslaur> jdstrand: I can add it to the schedule if you'd like
[18:27] <jdstrand> mdeslaur: thanks. +1 for standalone page, but we can discuss more next week
[18:28] <mdeslaur> jdstrand: added to schedule
[18:28] <jdstrand> cool
[18:28] <sbeattie> mdeslaur: I'm imagining as things flesh out, a standalone page will be needed, but for now it's sufficient.
[18:28] <jdstrand> that's it from me for now
[18:28] <mdeslaur> sbeattie: well, I'd like to get a URL that will stay the same for the user space tools
[18:28] <jdstrand> does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
[18:29] <jdstrand> oh, I forgot to mention I'll be going through applicants this week
[18:30] <jdstrand> alrighty then
[18:30] <jdstrand> kees, mdeslaur, sbeattie, micahg, jjohansen: thanks!
[18:30] <jdstrand> #endmeeting
[18:30] <mdeslaur> thanks
[18:30] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:30.
[18:30] <micahg> thanks jdstrand
[18:31] <sbeattie> woo, thanks!
[20:01] <maco> persia, Laney, bdrung: ping?
[20:01] <bdrung> o/
[20:01] <stgraber> pong :)
[20:03] <lynxman> stgraber: thanks for the pointer btw
[20:03] <jamespage> o/
[20:03] <stgraber> np
[20:03] <lynxman> o/ everyone
[20:03] <maco> need 4 for quorum right?
[20:03] <stgraber> yep
[20:04] <stgraber> cody-somerville: ping
[20:04] <negronjl> hi all
[20:04] <maco> thanks. i cant remember all the members of both boards im on :)
[20:04] <stgraber> maco: poked geser in -devel
[20:05] <stgraber> Laney said he wouldn't be around, hopefully one of the others will show up
[20:05] <cody-somerville> I'm here.
[20:05] <stgraber> yeah!
[20:07] <maco> #startmeeting
[20:07] <MootBot> Meeting started at 14:07. The chair is maco.
[20:07] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[20:07] <maco> Welcome to the Developer Membership Board meeting
[20:08] <maco> Agenda is here:
[20:08] <maco> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/Agenda
[20:08] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/Agenda
[20:08] <maco> oh good, it doesnt mind lowercase
[20:08] <maco> [topic] James Page's application for Server package set
[20:08] <MootBot> New Topic:  James Page's application for Server package set
[20:08] <jamespage> Hi All
[20:09] <jamespage> details of my app are here : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JamesPage/ServerDeveloperApplication
[20:09] <maco> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JamesPage/ServerDeveloperApplication
[20:09] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JamesPage/ServerDeveloperApplication
[20:09] <maco> Want to introduce yourself a bit?
[20:10] <jamespage> OK; so I've been contributing to Ubuntu as a member of the Ubuntu Server team since September last year
[20:10] <jamespage> (shortly before I started to work for Canonical)
[20:10] <bdrung> jamespage: i see java in there. are you interested in Eclipse? ;)
[20:10] <stgraber> As a reminder, here's the server package set: http://paste.ubuntu.com/629984/
[20:10] <cody-somerville> stgraber, kudos
[20:11] <jamespage> a bdrung points out quite a bit about java in my app; and this is my background before I started contributing to Ubuntu
[20:11] <maco> stgraber: would be nice if this was exposed in LP's UI :-/
[20:11] <jamespage> (and yes I am interested in eclipse)
[20:11] <bdrung> stgraber: ant1.7 is in there, but not ant?
[20:11] <stgraber> bdrung: apparently :) some packagesets are weird. You'll also note that tomcat isn't in there...
[20:12] <bdrung> jamespage: we need more manpower for eclipse. feel free to join #debian-java on OFTC and/or #eclipse-linux on freenode after the meeting if you are interested
[20:12] <jamespage> bdrung: ack - I'll drop by
[20:13] <stgraber> maco: indeed. At the moment you need to use edit_acl.py from lp:~ubuntu-archive/ubuntu-archive-tools/trunk/ unless someone added it somewhere on LP and I missed it :)
[20:13] <bdrung> stgraber: why is gimp in there?
[20:13] <stgraber> bdrung: oh, fun :) no idea
[20:13] <stgraber> bdrung: I guess we may want to poke cjwatson to get that package set cleaned up a bit :)
[20:14] <stgraber> bdrung: and make sure whatever jamespage needs is in there (if it's in the ubuntu-server scope)
[20:14] <geser> I asked once about gimp already as I spotted it too
[20:14] <cjwatson> it's autogenerated
[20:14] <cjwatson> I'm not going to do single-package cleanups
[20:14] <geser> IIRC it is correct but I don't remember the reason, might be a (build-)dependency
[20:15] <bdrung> afk for a few minutes (there is a bothersome interrupt)
[20:15] <cjwatson> gimp will be there for (build-)dependency closure reasons
[20:15] <maco> stgraber: yeah i know, but for example i was trying to find a list of all the package sets (and i thought someone had pastebinned it at an earlier meeting but couldnt find it), and a page to point people to "pick the one that fits" rather than "get this script and do a thing" (which i couldnt get it to do anyway)...
[20:15] <jamespage> so although my core competency is Java; I have worked extensively with non-Java technology on Linux as well
[20:15] <cody-somerville> jamespage, Are most of the uploads that have been sponsored for you thus far been just bug fixes?
[20:16] <stgraber> cjwatson: is there any documentation on how the package sets are currently autogenerated? (or the scripts used for that)
[20:16] <jamespage> cody-somerville: yes they have; you should see more new packages from me this cycle whilst I work to get jenkins into the archive
[20:16] <cjwatson> in particular, one of the gimp libraries is a build-dependency of gutenprint, which is supported as part of print-server
[20:16] <cjwatson> stgraber: just mailing list stuff really
[20:17] <jamespage> I did do one new package last cycle to support the server team effort packaging cobbler
[20:17] <cody-somerville> jamespage, How familiar are you with versioning of SRU packages?
[20:17] <cody-somerville> s/packages/uploads/
[20:18] <jamespage> cody-somerville: so I have done a few SRU's; I followed the versioning advice as advised in the documented process
[20:18] <jamespage> i.e. .X version ontop of the release version
[20:18]  * bdrung is back.
[20:19] <jamespage> there are a few examples with links on my application
[20:20] <cody-somerville> jamespage, If you were doing an SRU to upload a number of bug fixes from the development focus, how might you version an upload to several older releases? Feel free to create and describe an entirely imaginary situation that demonstrate your strong understanding.
[20:21] <cody-somerville> jamespage, and for kicks, assume that two of the releases you wish to perform an SRU for have the same version of the package.
[20:22] <jamespage> so I would identify the latest point release in each of the older releases (including the ones which have the same version of the package)
[20:23] <jamespage> prepare a updated packages based on the branch for each release; using the currentpointrelease+1 increment on the version number and identifying the -proposed pocket for the release
[20:24]  * jamespage takes a second to thing about the instances with the same version
[20:25] <jamespage> so as I've never actually come across this situation the first thing I would do is seek guidance
[20:26] <jamespage> however I would have thought that I would need to prepare point release updates for each instance (again marking for -proposed); unless its possible to prepare it once and then sync to the second release with the same version of the package
[20:26] <bdrung> you need to prepare an update for each instance
[20:27] <jamespage> I thought so; I was not aware of any such sync process
[20:27] <bdrung> what's the problem in this case? can you imagine a solution?
[20:28] <bdrung> additional question: which version would you use for SRUing 1.2-3?
[20:30] <jamespage> so the issue I could see with the releases with the same version would be around the updates not getting through to proposed at the same time; I could see that this could create some odd versioning issues say if 1.2-3ubuntu1.1 got into an earlier release prior to it hitting a later release
[20:31] <jamespage> I would probably look to ensure that the verification process followed made sure that these drop's hit at the same/similar time into -updates
[20:32] <cody-somerville> jamespage, You wouldn't be able to upload the same version to the later release. It would be rejected.
[20:32] <stgraber> are you familiar with how archive.ubuntu.com works? specifically /pool? if so, you should see the problem in what you just said :)
[20:33] <jamespage> right; so using the same release number in both of the updates create a conflict hence the rejection
[20:33] <stgraber> yep
[20:33] <jamespage> stgraber: its not an area I have alot of experience in
[20:34] <stgraber> so how would you work around that limitation? to have the same update hit two versions of ubuntu while avoiding the version conflict and without breaking dist-upgrade to the next relesae?
[20:34] <stgraber> *release
[20:35] <jamespage> so understanding that constraint I would use a lower point release number in the earlier release
[20:36] <jamespage> if the base version was 1.2-3ubuntu1 I would use say 1.2-3ubuntu1.1.1 in the earlier version
[20:36] <jamespage> and 1.2-3ubuntu1.2.1 in the later version to avoid the versioning conflict
[20:37] <cody-somerville> jamespage, what if the version after has 1.2-3ubuntu1.2 already?
[20:37] <jamespage> infact you could use the release numbers to good effect here
[20:37] <cody-somerville> (s/version/next release/
[20:38] <jamespage> 1.2-3ubuntu1.2.10.04 and 1.2-3ubuntu1.2.10.10 say
[20:38] <maco> bingo
[20:38] <maco> well, move the .2 to the end, but yeah
[20:38] <jamespage> right - gotcha
[20:38] <bdrung> jamespage: which version would you use for SRUing 1.2-3?
[20:39] <jamespage> and then that can be increments as required
[20:39] <jamespage> 1.2-3ubuntu0.1
[20:39] <maco> XubuntuY.10.04.1 and XubuntuY.10.10.1 is how https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdatePreparation#Update_the_packaging shows
[20:39] <maco> (bookmark that link, btw, very handy)
[20:39] <jamespage> or in the instance of dual versions ubuntu0.10.04.1 and ubuntu0.10.10.1
[20:40] <bdrung> i always forget the layout of the security changelog entry
[20:40] <cody-somerville> Alternatively, I think I've seen the use of tilde and the release codename + X
[20:40] <jamespage> maco- thanks for the link
[20:40] <maco> cody-somerville: that's for backports, i believe
[20:40] <jamespage> (that hangs of the SRU page right?)
[20:40] <maco> hopefully the sru page links to it...
[20:41] <jamespage> yes it does - just checked
[20:41] <cody-somerville> maco, I think I've seen similar notation be used when there are already 'point releases' so you can't just shift the the numbers around
[20:41] <maco> cody-somerville: also, it'll create a problem when we loop from z back to a
[20:41] <cody-somerville> maco, if the upstream versions has never changed, yes :P
[20:42] <maco> cody-somerville: between z and a it might not, assuming we don't go into a new charset :P
[20:42] <bdrung> using the year won't lead to problem for my generation (2100)
[20:43] <cody-somerville> jamespage, Do you collaborate and interact frequently with community developers at all?
[20:45] <jamespage> cody-somerville: so I do hang out on ubuntu-server and ubuntu-devel; although I would have to admit that my interaction with community developer in Ubuntu has not been large
[20:45] <jamespage> on Java related packaging stuff I have had more interaction with the debian-java team
[20:47] <maco> done with questions yet?
[20:47] <cody-somerville> No further questions from me.
[20:47] <bdrung> yes
[20:47] <Daviey> I would like to add that James Page does indeed rock.  His recent NEW packages which i sponsored into Oneiric were faultless.  Sailed through the queue.  He is pushing his work into Debian concurrently.  He is a good cookie.
[20:48]  * stgraber is ready to vote
[20:48] <maco> [vote] James Page's server package set application
[20:48] <MootBot> Please vote on:  James Page's server package set application.
[20:48] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[20:48] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[20:48] <maco> +1
[20:48] <MootBot> +1 received from maco. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[20:48] <Daviey> (Also noticed him working with various upstreams to get them to resolve licencing issues.)
[20:48] <bdrung> +1 (likes the Debian involvement)
[20:48] <MootBot> +1 received from bdrung. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[20:49] <stgraber> +1
[20:49] <MootBot> +1 received from stgraber. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[20:50] <maco> cody-somerville, geser?
[20:50] <cody-somerville> +1
[20:50] <MootBot> +1 received from cody-somerville. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
[20:50] <geser> +1
[20:50] <MootBot> +1 received from geser. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
[20:50] <maco> [endvote]
[20:50] <MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 5
[20:50] <maco> congrats jamespage!
[20:50] <bdrung> jamespage: congrats
[20:51] <Daviey> \o/
[20:51] <jamespage> thankyou!
[20:51] <maco> [topic] Marc Cluet's Contributing Developer application
[20:51] <MootBot> New Topic:  Marc Cluet's Contributing Developer application
[20:51] <lynxman> hi everyone
[20:51] <lynxman> my application is here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarcCluet/UbuntuContributingDeveloper
[20:51] <maco> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarcCluet/UbuntuContributingDeveloper
[20:51] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarcCluet/UbuntuContributingDeveloper
[20:52] <maco> lynxman: please introduce yourself
[20:52] <lynxman> I'm Marc Cluet, I'm working for Canonical in Corporate Services
[20:52] <lynxman> With negronjl we form the Systems Integration team
[20:53] <lynxman> Our goal is to integrate into Ubuntu new solutions for servers both cloud and metal based
[20:53] <lynxman> Right now our main project is Orchestra
[20:53] <lynxman> This has allowed me to collaborate both with the communities surrounding puppet and mcollective and at the same time Puppet Labs
[20:54] <lynxman> I've also registered patches and pushed new versions for mcollective and rabbitmq plugins
[20:54] <lynxman> (all through sponsorization)
[20:54] <lynxman> Right now finishing the last details to get also mcollective-plugins in the Oneiric archive
[20:55] <lynxman> My collaborations are mainly with the Ubuntu Server team
[20:55] <stgraber> In you "What I like least in Ubuntu" section, you mention the review process. Do you think the patch pilot program is helping improve that or are we still missing something?
[20:56] <stgraber> *your
[20:56] <lynxman> stgraber: It does help, I do still think that the big problem is not enough man hours to review all the packages in the queue
[20:57] <lynxman> stgraber: To help with that process I've also subscribed to ~ubuntu-sponsors to get better reviews of my work and learn faster, trying to commit as few errors as it can be
[20:57] <bdrung> i see only one package appearing on https://launchpad.net/~lynxman/+uploaded-packages - do you have pointers to the bugs that were sponsored?
[20:58] <lynxman> bdrung: Let me look for them, one sec
[20:59] <Daviey> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/rabbitmq-stomp/2.4.1+hg20110525-0ubuntu1
[20:59] <Daviey> DEBEMAIL mismatch :(
[21:00] <lynxman> bdrung: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/mcollective/1.2.0-0ubuntu1 was completely done on my own, with sponsorship from zul
[21:01] <bdrung> lynxman: it fails to build. how can you ensure that this won't happen again?
[21:02] <lynxman> bdrung: I always build all my new packages first locally then on a PPA, run through Lintian checks to make sure all is good
[21:02] <lynxman> bdrung: once the packages pass all the checks I submit them for sponsoring
[21:02] <Ampelbein> lynxman: you should go to https://launchpad.net/~marc-cluet and request to merge the two accounts so all your work does actually show under your account.
[21:02] <bdrung> how do you build it locally? with debuild?
[21:02] <lynxman> bdrung: I used to use dpkg-buildpackage but now I'm using debuild that runs lintian at the end
[21:03] <lynxman> Ampelbein: thank you for pointing that out, I'll make sure to ask for the account merge :)
[21:04] <bdrung> lynxman: i recommend to use pbuilder / sbuild or similar before the upload (or instead of using a PPA). this gives a minimal chroot similar to the official builders
[21:04] <lynxman> bdrung: I'm also using pbuilder or sbuild for a clean chroot, learning all the tools of the trade
[21:04] <lynxman> bdrung: jinx :)
[21:05] <bdrung> what's your relation to Debian?
[21:06] <cody-somerville> lynxman, Do you collaborate and interact frequently with community developers at all?
[21:06] <lynxman> bdrung: I had no relation with debian before except personal friendships with some of the debian packagers, i also did run some serves on debian and submitted bug reports
[21:08] <lynxman> cody-somerville: I do specially when I'm creating packages for the software that the community is based around, this has been the case with mcollective in special
[21:09] <lynxman> cody-somerville: I hang regularly in the #mcollective channel, submit bugs upstream and help other developers and users to smooth their experience of mcollective in Ubuntu
[21:09] <lynxman> cody-somerville: I also hang both in #ubuntu-server and #ubuntu-devel regularly
[21:09] <cody-somerville> lynxman, So mostly upstream collaboration?
[21:09] <lynxman> cody-somerville: yes
[21:10] <lynxman> cody-somerville: I do want to try to push the rabbitmq plugins to Debian as well since there's no maintainer for them right now
[21:10] <bdrung> lynxman: what do you think about getting packages into Debian first and getting changes into Debian?
[21:10] <cody-somerville> lynxman, Do you have any examples of collaboration with Ubuntu MOTU, Ubuntu Core Developers, or Debian Developers that you're proud of and can share with us?
[21:10] <lynxman> cody-somerville: yes, I've had interaction with smoser adding features to cloud-init
[21:11] <lynxman> cody-somerville: also collaborated very closely with zul, kirkland and Daviey for both mcollective and rabbitmq plugins
[21:11] <cody-somerville> lynxman, Was that work you did as part of your job?
[21:12] <cody-somerville> (if it was, its not a strike against you - I'm just curious).
[21:12] <lynxman> cody-somerville: part of it was, but I also submitted more useful features or patches that were out of my project requirements
[21:12] <lynxman> cody-somerville: specially for the mcollective-provisioner, I've been collaborating very closely with RI Pienaar (Volcane on Freenode) on that piece of code on my free time
[21:13] <lynxman> cody-somerville: I also want to get the rabbitmq plugins in Debian so mcollective can work well in debian (and replace activemq with rabbitmq there)
[21:13] <lynxman> cody-somerville: so I expect my work in Ubuntu making mcollective work smoothly to benefit Debian too
[21:14] <bdrung> i have no more questions
[21:14]  * stgraber is ready to vote
[21:14] <lynxman> cody-somerville: all of this is extra curricular to my work, which is just to integrate mcollective into Orchestra and Ubuntu
[21:15] <maco> everyone else ready to vote?
[21:15] <maco> [vote] Marc Cluet for contributing developer
[21:15] <MootBot> Please vote on:  Marc Cluet for contributing developer.
[21:15] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[21:15] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[21:17] <maco> +1
[21:17] <MootBot> +1 received from maco. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[21:17] <maco> everybody waiting for someone else to go first?
[21:17] <bdrung> +1 for ubuntu-contributor
[21:17] <MootBot> +1 received from bdrung. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[21:17] <stgraber> +1 (sorry got distracted)
[21:17] <MootBot> +1 received from stgraber. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[21:17] <cody-somerville> -1 - Although on the right path, I don't think lynxman meets the minimum standards per current precedent for contributing developer.
[21:17] <MootBot> -1 received from cody-somerville. 3 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[21:17] <geser> +0
[21:17] <MootBot> Abstention received from geser. 3 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2
[21:18] <maco> [endvote]
[21:18] <MootBot> Final result is 3 for, 1 against. 1 abstained. Total: 2
[21:19] <robbiew> cody-somerville: "minimum standards per current precedent for contributing developer"?...really?  lol
[21:20] <maco> split vote...how do these work again?
[21:20] <maco> i remember one meeting ending in a debate on how split votes go
[21:20] <maco> (a few years ago)
[21:20] <kirkland> where are these current precedents?  are they objectively documented?
[21:20] <stgraber> maco: IIRC he needs 4 +1s. (but that's really IIRC :))
[21:21] <Daviey> stgraber: based on what ratio?
[21:21] <bdrung> 4 out of 7 is enough
[21:21] <bdrung> => more than 50%
[21:21] <maco> stgraber: yeah the debate i remember was "does it need to come out positive or does it need to come out to quorum-number-of-+1-votes?"
[21:21] <stgraber> Daviey: DMB has 7 members
[21:21] <kirkland> there's only 5 votes
[21:21] <kirkland> 3 out of 5 is 60%
[21:22] <highvoltage> hmm? didn't it used to work that someone needs a final 'score' of +4?
[21:22]  * micahg thought the requirement was +4, but that just comes from an outsider observer
[21:22] <stgraber> I also remember us asking the members who couldn't make it to vote on the mailing-list
[21:22] <Daviey> wow, this uncertainity is quite unfair to put on a potential contributing developer who is clearly waiting on the edge of his seat.
[21:22] <kirkland> highvoltage: that sounds reasonable, when 7 sitting council members actually attend and vote
[21:23] <bdrung> quorum-number-of-+1-votes is stronger than positive
[21:23] <kirkland> +3 -1 = +2, positive, no?
[21:23] <bdrung> IIRC, the other DMB members where asked to vote per email
[21:24] <cody-somerville> The vote can be taken to mailing list to ask the other members to vote. If they both +1 then the applicant is accepted AFAICT.
[21:24] <maco> cody-somerville: thatd work
[21:24] <bdrung> one +1 would be enough
[21:24] <maco> kirkland: the debate is whether that's enough. majority of quorum v. majority of board
[21:25] <maco> when this came up in '08 or '09, i remember crimsun mentioning how the MC handled it, but its been long enough ive forgotten again
[21:25] <cody-somerville> bdrung, How so? That would only bring the vote to +3. +4 is required.
[21:26] <bdrung> cody-somerville: that would bring us to 4x +1 and 1x -1
[21:26] <bdrung> 4x +1 is enough even if 3x -1 are there, isn't it?
[21:27] <cody-somerville> bdrung, -1 cancels out one of the +1s as we've discussed and agreed before IIRC.
[21:27] <maco> cody-somerville: but then you still end up with the majority of the entire board having voted +1
[21:27] <maco> we need to write down how this works
[21:27] <kirkland> maco: I think it's sad that a fraction of the board shows up for the meeting that candidates clearly work toward and prepare for
[21:28] <maco> kirkland: quorum is 4. we'd never have a meeting if all 7 had to be free every time, especially with timezones
[21:29] <highvoltage> kirkland: you should replace board members who stay away for two consecutive meetings without apologies!
[21:29] <kirkland> maco: and a single down vote can take a candidate down
[21:29] <cody-somerville> maco, I move that we take this discussion to the mailing list. We can more easily bring up prior discussion + votes there.
[21:29] <Daviey> *sigh*
[21:29] <kirkland> maco: particularly when that downvote is quite predictably linked to @canonical.com addresses
[21:29] <Daviey> geser: Would you like to expand on your +0?
[21:29] <RoAkSoAx> ~/win 3
[21:30] <maco> kirkland: i dont think there's any sort of pattern to suggest that @canonical folks are "predictably" downvoted
[21:30] <maco> [action] Conclude Marc Cluet's vote on Permissions mailing list
[21:30] <MootBot> ACTION received:  Conclude Marc Cluet's vote on Permissions mailing list
[21:31] <lynxman> thank you guys for your time, I'll keep an eye on the mailing list traffic for the final vote
[21:31] <maco> [action] Figure out majority-of-quorum versus majority-of-board and document it somewhere
[21:31] <MootBot> ACTION received:  Figure out majority-of-quorum versus majority-of-board and document it somewhere
[21:31] <maco> and now that it's been an hour and a half...
[21:31] <maco> #endmeeting
[21:31] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 15:31.
[21:31] <stgraber> thanks!
[21:31] <Daviey> sad.
[21:32] <bdrung> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/Logs is not up-to-date
[21:32] <stgraber> I still think we should get persia and Laney to vote on lynxman's application
[21:33] <stgraber> bdrung: how so? (still waiting for wiki to load :))
[21:33] <stgraber> oh, right, forgot to add a link to the minutes of last meeting ... why do we have to update so many pages?
[21:33] <bdrung> the latest entry is 2011-05-09
[21:33] <stgraber> I already added our last meeting to the team reports...
[21:34] <bdrung> we need some tools doing all the annoying stuff
[21:34] <cody-somerville> +1
[21:34] <geser> Daviey: sure, mostly the short time of contributions (and the few sponsored uploads, but I just see that through the account merging some more uploads appeared), so my vote would be +0.5 (I'm still on the edge)
[21:34] <maco> stgraber: i'm emailing the Permissions list right now so persia and Laney can vote
[21:34] <micahg> kirkland: please keep in mind the DMB is staffed by volunteers and people try their best to attend
[21:34] <Daviey> geser: Thanks. Appreciated.
[21:35] <stgraber> bdrung: updated
[21:35] <stgraber> maco: thanks
[21:36] <bdrung> found a +3 vote in http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/01/31/%23ubuntu-meeting.html#t19:16
[21:36] <bdrung> which was continued via email
[21:36] <geser> stgraber: I started the log page because I needed several time to look up something in a log of a previous meeting and had to count backwards to find the date of a previous meeting to be able to find the log in irclogs.u.c
[21:37] <stgraber> geser: ok, I just wasn't aware of it :) I'm adding it to the post-meeting todolist so hopefully we won't forget about it
[21:37] <stgraber> that's if the wiki finally lets me edit the DMB agenda page ...
[21:39] <maco> email sent
[21:39] <stgraber> ok, updated post-meeting todolist
[23:59] <Laney> I find the second guessing and sideline sniping to be rather disappointing.