[13:35] <bazhang> nice
[13:37] <jpds> Quite.
  hi   bazhang   auto-greeter script
[13:38] <jpds> bazhang: We could always flood it off.
[13:39] <bazhang> or leave it to l J l
[13:39] <LjL> i've had my bitcoins stolen :(
[13:39] <LjL> because i was silly
[13:39] <jussi> :(
[13:40] <bazhang> grand theft bitcoin!
[14:14] <Pici> I wonder if we should update !grub2 now that 8.04 is the only supported release to not come with it by default.
[14:15] <ikonia> maybe do it on EOL for 8.04 ?
[14:15] <ikonia> well, it is eol on the desktop isn't it ?
[14:15] <LjL> i wonder if i should switch from LILO
[14:15] <ikonia> lilo is good, I've no problem keeping it
[14:15] <ikonia> not good for 64bit though
[14:15] <LjL> well it's only on my server
[14:16] <ikonia> you're using it on a 64bit box ?
[14:16] <LjL> no
[14:16] <ikonia> ah
[14:47] <bazhang> goliath is the one who did the f-bomb then quit
[14:47] <Pici> Yes
[14:47] <ikonia> yes
[14:47] <Pici> LjL forwared them here.
[14:48] <ikonia> he appears to have been missed by ljl's forward
[14:48] <ikonia> ahhh joined without cloak
[14:48] <ikonia> then cloaked
[14:48] <bazhang> forewarned is foresomethinged
[14:48] <ikonia> asked him to join the channel
[14:48] <ikonia> (in pm)
[14:58] <Goliath> ikonia: hey
[15:00] <LjL> Goliath: you were directed here because it's not really acceptable to say "fuck ubuntu" and then leave (or for that matter, to say it without subsequently leaving). #ubuntu has a language policy, and also it's not constructive to just throw an insult and go
[15:02] <Goliath> i got frustrated
[15:02] <Goliath> i wont join that channel again
[15:03] <Goliath> the buntu community sucks
[15:03] <Goliath> really
[15:04] <LjL> well what can i say, if you don't want to rejoin then i guess there's little to discuss. i also don't know why you got frustrated, it isn't in the backlog anymore, however while #ubuntu often doesn't answer people's inquiries, there are a lot of people who do try
[15:05] <Goliath> yeah
[15:07] <LjL> Goliath: if you say you can avoid such outbursts in the future (either by not rejoining the channel in the first place, or however else) i'm fine with just removing the ban, though
[15:08] <Goliath> ok
[15:10] <LjL> Goliath: ban removed
[15:10] <ikonia> LjL: no, I put a nick on on too
[15:10] <LjL> i removed both
[15:10] <ikonia> sorry, only saw one go
[15:24] <jpds> Hmm.
[20:38] <Pici> Hi
[20:39] <C4colo> I'd rather talk about why talking about #ubuntu in #ubuntu is considered off-topic
[20:39] <C4colo> that's the curiosity of the day
[20:40] <Pici> You mean talking about why 'mature conversation' is a bit of a misnomer because mature can mean different things in different contexts?
[20:40] <oCean> C4colo: I think you understand
[20:40] <C4colo> that one was a joke
[20:40] <oCean> and so?
[20:41] <oCean> are you making some point here?
[20:41] <Pici> C4colo: So which part were you referring to?  I only caught the tail end of the conversation.
[20:42] <C4colo> I came in asking about a LUKS issue related to upgrading, someone brought up the specific vocabulary I chose to use and thereby started that specific conversational thread
[20:43] <C4colo> I further expressed my displeasure with that particular rule, however I did remain within the constraints imposed on me by the policies of the channel in order to do so
[20:44] <oCean> true, but when asked to stop the offtopic talk (C4colo: can you stop the offtopic discussion?) you continued that particular discussion
[20:44] <C4colo> I did stop the offtopic talk
[20:44] <Pici> C4colo: I wasn't aware that discussion of channel polcies was required.  As an extreme example, I don't ask the cop why there is a speed limit of 25 on an otherwise busy road.
[20:44] <C4colo> I have followed every request
[20:45] <C4colo> I dispute the claim that discussing the policies of a channel are off-topic in that channel
[20:45] <C4colo> how can discussing #ubuntu in a channel of the same name be considered off-topic?
[20:45] <oCean> since 'tech support' is the topic, not the channel itself
[20:45] <C4colo> notice once an alternate venue was proposed I complied with that request
[20:46] <LjL> C4colo: it can and it is. if anything, *this* is the channel to discuss policies. #ubuntu is about technical support not policies.
[20:46] <Pici> LjL: (or #ubuntu-irc)
[20:46] <C4colo> neither was proposed as an alternative
[20:47] <Pici> C4colo: Thats because usually people listen to the policies and don't continue to ask about them.
 C4colo: the smalltalk goes in #ubuntu-offtopic, not here
[20:47] <LjL> i'm reviewing the logs, and it seems to me that you were directed here
[20:47] <C4colo> ok, be a good citizen, shut up and do what you are told, no discussion
[20:48] <C4colo> I was told to reclassify my on-topic discussion as off-topic
[20:48] <LjL> you can discuss, just not in #ubuntu. perhaps you could have been told sooner to come here on in -offtopic or in -irc or something, but you were told eventually
[20:48] <C4colo> that is different than asking to move a specific discussion to a more apt venue
[20:48] <Pici> I only mean to express what we're used to seeing.  Sometimes discussion of policies results in them being changed.
[20:48] <C4colo> I will not take this on-topic discussion to -offtopic, that is an unreasonable request
[20:49] <LjL> it's unreasonable of you to think you're the one to decide what is considered "ontopic"
[20:49] <C4colo> I'm using simple logic
[20:49] <C4colo> if you can't follow simple logic then you surely should not be the one to decide
[20:49] <LjL> well there is a precise definition, it's not a matter of logic
[20:49] <LjL> ontopic in #ubuntu means Ubuntu technical support. period. that's not going to change.
[20:49] <LjL> anything else?
[20:50] <C4colo> are you serious?
[20:50] <LjL> dead serious
[20:51] <C4colo> so simply "your logic is invalid, moving on"
[20:51] <LjL> yes
[20:51] <C4colo> "if you just followed the policies then you wouldn't be wrong"
[20:51] <LjL> it's not that your logic is invalid actually, it's that it's not a matter of logic in the first place
[20:51] <LjL> it's a definition
[20:51] <LjL> so moving on, is there a specific policy aside from the one about what is ontopic in #ubuntu that you want to discuss?
[20:51] <C4colo> as soon as a better venue was provided I complied
[20:52] <LjL> fine, so now you're in the better venue, which policy would you like to discuss?
[20:52] <C4colo> the cursing policy
[20:52] <C4colo> it seems asinine
[20:52] <IdleOne> common sense does apply in most cases, sometimes a support discussion will go off-topic but it is still relevant. When that off-topic starts to turn into chat and no longer support then it needs to be moved to a more appropriate channel.
[20:52] <LjL> C4colo: elaborate please
[20:52] <IdleOne> the no cursing policy will not change either
[20:52] <C4colo> If you are not old enough to read a "dirty" word then you shouldn't be on IRC
[20:52] <C4colo> period.
[20:53] <LjL> disagreed
[20:53] <LjL> period
[20:53] <LjL> if you want to put it that way
[20:53] <C4colo> so you are just imposing unreasonable rules to feel better about yourselves as ops in the #ubuntu channel?
[20:53] <LjL> you're the one who's saying they're unreasonable, they seem pretty sane to most of us
[20:53] <IdleOne> again you assume to know what "old enough" is and also that you are in a position to decide if I am old enough to want to se it.
[20:53] <C4colo> if you are not old enough to see it don't go on IRC please.
[20:53] <C4colo> because people say dirty words on there
[20:54] <LjL> not in #ubuntu, not while we're watching
[20:54] <IdleOne> if you are not old enough to follow our rules then perhaps you need to disconnect from irc
[20:54] <C4colo> it just happened
[20:54] <C4colo> I said it
[20:54] <C4colo> you must not have been watching
[20:54] <LjL> this discussion isn't being constructive
[20:54] <C4colo> then don't have it with me
[20:54] <C4colo> it is IRC
[20:54] <LjL> maybe you'd like to write to the IRC Council or the Community Council with your perplexities
[20:54] <C4colo> and you have @ by your name
[20:54] <LjL> i think i'm done here
[20:54] <LjL> part if there is nothing else
[20:55] <C4colo> I was invited here so you can say "YOu are wrong, write a committee or something" and then demand I leave?
[20:56] <Corey> C4colo: Enough.  You've had the policy explained to you, you've been given an appeals mechanism.
[20:56] <LjL> if you have nothing more constructive than "kids shouldn't be on irc" to say, then yes
[20:56] <oCean> !appeal > C4colo
[20:56] <C4colo> all that has happened is that I have been demanded to comply with various requests
[20:57] <IdleOne> correct
[20:57] <C4colo> no substantive action has transpired as a result of my compliance
[20:57] <IdleOne> also correct
[20:57] <LjL> what action were you expecting?
[20:57] <C4colo> a discussion
[20:57] <C4colo> and one that doesn't start twice with "but nothing will change"
[20:57] <IdleOne> did you think we would say "HE IS RIGHT" and change the rules.?
[20:58] <LjL> i'd have a discussion, if it weren't one that starts with "your policies are asinine and kids shouldn't be on irc"
[20:58] <LjL> our policies are mostly ok, and kids can be on irc as a matter of fact, and they are
[20:58] <LjL> so unless you've got something of more substance, we can end it here
[20:58] <C4colo> no, but starting the conversation with that is fairly counter-productive and indicative of a non-open discussion
[20:58] <C4colo> kids shouldn't be on IRC
[20:58] <C4colo> not without their parent's permission
[20:59] <charlie-tca> so, as an old man, why should I be subjected to your cussing?
[20:59] <C4colo> it is #ubuntu's job to parent?
[20:59] <LjL> #ubuntu being a family friendly channel, yes, in a way it is.
[20:59] <C4colo> if you don't  want to be exposed to things you may be uncomfortable with, on't go out in public
[20:59] <IdleOne> C4colo: is that your only argument?
[20:59] <LjL> C4colo: if you want to be able to say whatever you want, go somewhere where there is no police or ops
[20:59] <IdleOne> if you don't like it leave?
[20:59] <LjL> IdleOne: hey
[20:59] <LjL> IdleOne: it's a good argument
[20:59] <Pici> (There are channels on freenode like that, but they aren't Ubuntu channels)
[21:00] <IdleOne> C4colo: if YOU don't like it, leave.
[21:00] <LjL> i agree with it actually
[21:00] <C4colo> My real issue is with being bossed around by policy and having that conversation unnecessarily prolonged by ops who are on a power-tip or something
[21:00] <LjL> ah sorry
[21:00] <C4colo> I was seriously fine with not cursing once it was pointed out
[21:00] <C4colo> your channel, your rules, whatever
[21:00] <LjL> it's true, we're unnecessarily prolonging this here
[21:00] <LjL> bye, thanks for the feedback :)
[21:00] <C4colo> but the way it was handled was upsetting
[21:00] <C4colo> why was everyone prolonging the conversation if they wanted it to go away?
[21:00] <C4colo> I was only responding after the first joke I made
[21:01] <C4colo> and yet I was attacked
[21:01] <Corey> C4colo: Let me see if I can simplify this some.
[21:01] <Corey> We have a language policy in #ubuntu.  Please abide by it.
[21:01] <C4colo> for being "off topic" when responding to ops and other participants
[21:01] <Corey> Was there anything else?
[21:01] <C4colo> (please indicate one instance of me not abiding by your language policy once I was reminded of it)
[21:02] <C4colo> and yes, what I just said above
[21:02] <LjL> C4colo: uhm, if your request here is to be unbanned, you can probably be unbanned, as long as you agree to follow the language policy whether or not you agree with it in principle
[21:02] <C4colo> I was attacked for being off-topic when the ops and other users in the channel were the ones prolonging the conversation
[21:03] <C4colo> I didn't know I was banned, I haven't done anything ban-worthy, so whatever
[21:03] <Pici> C4colo: I thought *you* wanted to continue the conversation, thats why I asked you here.  My mistake apparently.
[21:03] <Pici> It was a mute.
[21:03] <C4colo> that's fun too
[21:04] <C4colo> but, seriously, I was just joking around about a policy that seems excessive and probably unenforcible
[21:04] <C4colo> it was in response to a comment made in the channel too
[21:04] <LjL> C4colo: ok, understood
[21:04] <LjL> C4colo: do you want your mute removed and agree to follow the policies?
[21:04] <C4colo> I have done nothing mute-worthy
[21:05] <LjL> C4colo: do you want your mute removed and agree to follow the policies?
[21:05] <C4colo> if you choose to remove it that is your choice
[21:05] <C4colo> I don't care really
[21:05] <LjL> ok, in that case, see you around
[21:07] <C4colo> I don't see the policy where you are required to abuse people coming here for help
[21:07] <C4colo> did I miss that one?
[21:07] <IdleOne> C4colo: I don't see any abuse towards you from anyone
[21:07] <IdleOne> ah, there it is
[23:24] <Corey> aurorax was just doing that in ##linux.
[23:28] <LjL> Corey: yeah, that's why i opped up
[23:28] <Corey> LjL: Yeah, it just became a network problem.