[05:48] <w0jrl> hello everyone
[08:22] <AlanBell> I did a bit of a surprise interview on the Ubuntu UK podcast yesterday about accessibility in Ubuntu
[08:23] <AlanBell> as in, I was surprised by it!
[08:23] <AlanBell> the recording should be out in a few days, hope it sounds OK
[08:27] <w0jrl> @AlAnBell looking forword to it.
[08:27] <meetingology> w0jrl: Error: "AlAnBell" is not a valid command.
[08:28] <w0jrl> looking forword to it.
[08:29] <w0jrl> Are you having any luck with Unity?
[08:34] <AlanBell> no, totally broke it on my machine
[08:34] <AlanBell> I was trying to build compiz to add text cursor tracking to the zoom plugin
[08:34] <AlanBell> now I have broken unity
[08:38] <w0jrl> I'm playing with it, and the accessibility looks promising. However switching windows is a pain.
[12:53] <charlie-tca> From #ubuntu-desktop on 2011-06-21 (didrocks):
[12:53] <charlie-tca> orca seems to tell that it's happy with Qt a11y :)
[12:53] <charlie-tca> for people waiting to test: install qt and qt-at-spi from the ubuntu-desktop ppa
[12:53] <charlie-tca> then, by default, a11y isn't activated
[12:53] <charlie-tca> if you want to activate it: export QT_ACCESSIBILITY=1
[12:54] <charlie-tca> (should make some application a little bit more crashy, but it's acceptable for now)
[13:05] <AlanBell> is the meeting tonight Pendulum?
[13:06] <Pendulum> afaik, yes
[13:06] <Pendulum> will change topic and send e-mail to the list when I am a little more awake
[18:25]  * AlanBell tickles Pendulum
[18:32]  * Pendulum updates agenda
[18:32] <Pendulum> or at least I will if I can figure out what should be on it ;-)
[18:32] <Pendulum> and if I can sign into the wiki
[18:33] <Pendulum> signing into the wiki is the bigger barrier
[18:33] <Pendulum> ah.. finally
[18:34] <Pendulum> AlanBell: are you making it to the meeting?
[18:34] <charlie-tca> signing in is hard now, but the pages are working
[18:36] <AlanBell> Pendulum: yup
[18:38] <Pendulum> can someone look at the agenda and let me know if it looks good? (and feel free to add/edit!)
[18:41] <AlanBell> I think there may be some interesting new stuff for testing that we should publicise
[18:41] <AlanBell> like some Qt stuff, and any developments in ubiquity
[18:42] <Pendulum> maco: will you be around for meeting?
[18:42] <Pendulum> (just becaue I know maco's done a lot of the Ubiquity stuff)
[18:42] <charlie-tca> It is pretty hard for normal users to test that stuff, actually
[18:42] <maco> when?
[18:43] <AlanBell> just over 3 hours from now
[18:43] <maco> Cheri703 actually has some ubiquity patches she should send me ;-)
[18:43] <maco> oh oh
[18:43] <maco> i have commit access to ubiquity now!
[18:43] <Cheri703> yes, yes I do
[18:43]  * Cheri703 goes to do that
[18:43] <maco> Pendulum: yes i'll be around
[18:43] <maco> Cheri703: bzr diff    <-- generates a patch
[18:44]  * Cheri703 will just email you the files
[18:44] <maco> the Kubuntu Ubiquity is still too broken to get to the part where i try to make it setup kaccessible on new installs
[18:44] <maco> by which i mean:  i fixed one crash!   but there wasn't just one...
[18:45] <Pendulum> urgh... dear gmail send my e-mail please :(
[18:49] <Cheri703> maco: sent
[18:51] <Cheri703> I will try to make it for the meeting, at 3 I'm going off to teach teenage girls how to do some outdoor cooking and start fires without matches...
[18:51] <Cheri703> but I don't know when I'll be done. I'll be taking my netbook, and can tether with my phone, so I'll try to hop on
[18:52] <maco> Cheri703: firesteel + tinder? or charpaper + sticks?
[18:52] <Cheri703> flint & steel (with char cloth), steel wool & batteries, and possibly one or two others, we'll see
[18:53] <Cheri703> and we're cooking sloppy joes in the dutch oven, corn over the grill, and doing baked apples in a fire
[18:55] <maco> cool
[18:56] <maco> im taking a firesteel & tinder to Pennsic. ive heard coring a turnip and stuffing the middle with herbs and oil, then plugging the hole with a clove of garlic, wrap in foil, and throw on fire for 1-2 hours = yummy
[18:56] <Cheri703> yeah, every year church has "girls camp" and I went when I was younger, and so I help teach some of the stuff. most of it they can do there, but for some reason they chose a facility that will not let them make their own fires or cook their own food -_- that was always a big/fun part when i went
[18:56] <Cheri703> nice
[20:15] <paul_h> hi, could someone point me at the specific blueprint mentioned in the agenda for this evening's meeting?
[20:16] <Pendulum> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-o-accessibility-team
[20:17] <Pendulum> sorry, meant to put that in the agenda, but somehow didn't manage to do it
[20:18] <paul_h> Pendulum: thanks. btw the date is wrong on the agenda page too
[20:18] <Pendulum> ta
[20:18] <Pendulum> did my e-mail make it to the list?
[20:19] <Pendulum> (like an hour ago or so was when I tried to send it)
[20:20] <AlanBell> don't think so
[20:20] <AlanBell> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-accessibility/2011-June/date.html#start nope
[20:20] <paul_h> not sure, need to resubscribe to it. my email address has changed
[20:21]  * Pendulum resends
[20:21] <paul_h> as for the archives. I think there's quite a long delay between messages sent appearing on there
[20:22] <Pendulum> argh, so annoyed with the wiki issues like having to resign in every time I want to do anything
[20:22] <paul_h> Pendulum: that email worked
[20:23] <AlanBell> no delay on the archives https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-accessibility/2011-June/005290.html
[20:24] <Pendulum> now I just have to not hurt myself between now and the end of the meeting :)
[20:24] <Pendulum> despite my current wish to part my head from the rest of my body
[20:27] <paul_h> will TheMuso be at the meeting do we know? didn't see a response to my meeting time suggestion from him
[20:28] <Pendulum> and I have no idea
[20:28] <Pendulum> bah
[20:28] <Pendulum> paul_h: I have no idea, unfortunately. I hope so!
[20:35] <paul_h> on the blueprint it says approved by Kate Stewart, who is she?
[20:35] <maco> ubuntu's RElease Manager
[20:36] <maco> her approving them is how we got a chart on http://status.ubuntu.com
[20:37] <paul_h> wow never seen that site before
[20:38] <maco> it's new
[20:38] <maco> the charts used to go to the wiki, but the wiki is a big pile of fall-over-and-die, so now there's a not-crashing website for it
[20:39] <paul_h> yeah I was having fun with the wiki the other day. was trying to see if I could edit the meeting agenda page but it just wouldn't log me in. kept getting proxy errors
[20:47] <phillw> paul_h: a little snippet of information has arrived in my inbox, from the TL of the Australian LoCo regarding Wiki.... "The wiki is in a state of upgrade, they appear to have load issues on the login side of things but it's definitely still being looked at. It seems to work fine sometimes and other times be a bit slow. I've noticed some 502 proxy errors when logging in. Fortunately the person responsible for the upgrades is in my LoCo so 
[20:51] <charlie-tca> If you get a 502, try hitting F5 instead of anything else. Most times that will let it work
[20:52] <paul_h> didn't want to play ball at all on Monday afternoon but seems okay now. glad it wasn't something my end
[20:54] <AlanBell> phillw: yeah, the person doing the upgrade was bradm
[21:02] <Pendulum> paul_h: I think that's when people were having the most problems
[21:02] <Pendulum> okay
[21:02] <Pendulum> are y'all ready?
[21:02] <phillw> 21:00 UTC?
[21:02] <Pendulum> argh
[21:03] <Pendulum> I just failed timezones didn't I
[21:03] <paul_h> ready?
[21:03] <paul_h> another hour to go...
[21:03]  * phillw been there got the 'T'-Sirt :P I was an hour late for a classroom session, and I was te one giving it :P
[21:04] <Pendulum> I guess this means I have more time for chocolate :)
[21:04] <paul_h> always do a `date -u` before you decide it's time for a meting at x UTC :)
[21:08] <paul_h> the blueprint mentions ubuntu classroom.... what is that exactly?
[21:10] <AlanBell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom
[21:10] <AlanBell> IRC based training sessions
[21:12] <paul_h> AlanBell: ta (Paul opens yet another browser tab...)
[21:16] <paul_h> luckily Orca is currently working quite nicely on the ubuntu wiki site
[21:20] <glen1> Hi
[21:29] <TheMuso> paul_h: Yeah I will be here, been a little swamped.
[21:30] <paul_h> TheMuso: good good :) good morning!
[21:56] <charlie-tca> where is the meeting?
[21:56] <paul_h> about to start...
[21:57] <Pendulum> 3 min according to my clock
[21:57] <Pendulum> charlie-tca: here
[21:59]  * charlie-tca will stick, around then
[22:00] <paul_h> 21:00 UTC
[22:01] <Pendulum> right
[22:01] <Pendulum> #startmeeting
[22:01] <meetingology> Meeting started Wed Jun 22 21:01:30 2011 UTC.  The chair is Pendulum. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell.
[22:01] <meetingology> Useful Commands: #topic #action #link #idea #voters #vote #chair #action #agreed #help #info #endmeeting.
[22:01] <AlanBell> o/
[22:02] <Pendulum> kay, welcome to the meeting those of you who are here for it!
[22:02] <TheMuso> Hey folks.
[22:03] <paul_h> hey all
[22:03]  * charlie-tca waves
[22:04] <Pendulum> I took the liberty earlier of putting up an adgenda at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Team/MeetingAgenda
[22:05] <TheMuso> Thanks, as the one who suggested the meeting, I probably should have done more, but have been swamped.
[22:05] <Pendulum> TheMuso: s'ok. I probably should have been on top of suggesting meetings ;-)
[22:05] <TheMuso> Pendulum: But you had more important things to deal with.
[22:06] <paul_h> the agenda suggests we start with the blueprint?
[22:06] <Pendulum> anyway, we can all have our own personal guilt complexes, but the meeting is happening
[22:06] <Pendulum> #topic Quick review of Oneiric blueprint from UDS
[22:06] <meetingology> TOPIC: Quick review of Oneiric blueprint from UDS
[22:06] <Pendulum> #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-o-accessibility-team
[22:06] <TheMuso> Ok, the document has not really been started yet, probably won't get to that till post feature freeze.
[22:06] <TheMuso> I.e the a11y architecture document.
[22:07] <Pendulum> TheMuso: makes sense. Let me know if there's anything I can do to help with that
[22:07] <TheMuso> Ok thanks.
[22:08] <TheMuso> Re java-atk-wrapper, its somewhat of a higher priority, and am working to get it in the archive, so that at-spi1 can be properly demoted from main, as openjdk still depends on at-spi.
[22:08] <Pendulum> *nods*
[22:09] <TheMuso> As for dasher, well not looked at it at all.
[22:10] <Pendulum> okay
[22:10] <paul_h> is the Java ATK wrapper still being developed?
[22:10] <TheMuso> paul_h: Good question. There doesn't seem to have been much upstrea mactivity, and it is in the process of changing maintainers. I emailed various people involved with it a week ago about a license questino, and have not heard anything back yet.
[22:10] <TheMuso> However, it is needed.
[22:10] <TheMuso> For openjdk.
[22:11] <TheMuso> Openjdk currently uses java-access-bridge with is deprecated.
[22:12] <paul_h> can openjdk use the atk wrapper?
[22:13] <TheMuso> I don't think openjdk uses it as such, it just makes sure its available for any swing etc apps.
[22:13] <TheMuso> But it may actually use it, I haven't looked into it much, all I know is that its needed.
[22:13] <paul_h> well I can help test any package you create
[22:15] <Pendulum> AlanBell: have you looked into the Compiz Enhanzed zoom stuff yet?
[22:15] <TheMuso> paul_h: I don't think its a matter of testing, once its in, its in, and its needed either way. :)
[22:15] <AlanBell> Pendulum: I have a bit
[22:16] <Pendulum> anything interesting we should know now or is it just mostly in progress?
[22:16] <paul_h> TheMuso: in as in on the CD? or available in a repository?
[22:16] <AlanBell> I spoke to smspillaz about it and got started setting up a compiz development environmnet
[22:16] <TheMuso> paul_h: In main.
[22:16] <AlanBell> it is a bit of a "patches welcome" state
[22:17] <AlanBell> so I will try and get it done
[22:17] <AlanBell> I know how the orca/gnome magnifier does text cursor tracking
[22:18] <AlanBell> just the compiz plugin is in C++ rather than python
[22:18] <AlanBell> needs to be done without creating a hard dependency on at-spi2 I think
[22:19] <AlanBell> and installing the compiz development stuff broke my unity
[22:19] <TheMuso> AlanBell: IMO a dependency on at-spi2 will be a must unless we want to kep updating the plugin with the dbus API, as the dbus API between at-spi2 pieces is in flux atm.
[22:19] <paul_h> can I ask where we are with regards to the accessibility of Unity - both 2D and 3D?
[22:20] <TheMuso> The Qt at-spi plugin authors are finding this out first hand.
[22:20] <TheMuso> paul_h: That will be covered in the development topic.
[22:20] <paul_h> okay - I thought we'd done with the compis - sorry
[22:21] <AlanBell> TheMuso: yeah, a dependency to actually do text tracking is fine, but the zoom plugin needs to work as-is without it. If that makes sense
[22:21] <TheMuso> AlanBell: yes it does, but I am not sure how we will manage that without a build time dep, unless we want to keep updating to the new DBUS changes for at-spi2 as above.
[22:22] <TheMuso> The good thing is even with a dep on libatspi2, we could make the text tracking interface configurable, so that the plugin can still work even with a dep on libatspi2.
[22:22] <TheMuso> Libatspi2 does speak via dbus after all, its just that its kept up to date with the dbus API changes.
[22:23] <Pendulum> Just quickly I think before we wrap up the blueprint stuff, charlie-tca and I did an accessibility Q&A last week in Ubuntu Classroom. I'm also going to start asking soon for volunteers to teach accessibility classes. It'd be great if we could get something into developer week as well as open week and user days (which we've done before)
[22:23] <TheMuso> I wouldn't mind if the timezone was more agreeable.
[22:24] <Pendulum> TheMuso: would you possibly be willing to teach a one-off class at a time that works for you? (so outside one of the weeks)
[22:24] <TheMuso> Yes, I could do that.
[22:24] <Pendulum> I know the Ubuntu Classroom Team really is happy to have classes at any time :)
[22:24] <TheMuso> Its just a matter of coming up with something.
[22:25] <Pendulum> :)
[22:25] <Pendulum> Does anyone else have anything relating to the blueprint to discuss?
[22:25] <AlanBell> "how to use accerciser" would be good
[22:26] <Pendulum> I'll take that as a no.
[22:26] <Pendulum> #topic Development Update
[22:26] <meetingology> TOPIC: Development Update
[22:26] <Pendulum> TheMuso: I think this one is pretty much all you at the moment :)
[22:27] <TheMuso> Right.
[22:27] <maco> yeah don't look at me. i have to make ubiquity stop crashing before i can make it do any useful a11y stuff
[22:27] <TheMuso> So, Qt accessibility bits are coming along. Didrocks from the Desktop team is handling Qt, the qt-at-spi bridge and the patches to Qt, as he is in contact with upstream.
[22:28] <TheMuso> The bits are now ready for testing in the Ubuntu desktop PPA for Oneiric only. I plan to hammer them today myself.
[22:28] <TheMuso> QML is on the cards for upstream, so hopefully at the end of it all, unity 2d will be accessible, however I do have my concerns that things won't be ready/stable enough in time.
[22:29] <Pendulum> TheMuso: is there any discussion happening within the desktop team about what would/should happen if it's not ready?
[22:29] <TheMuso> As for Unity 3D, well not much a11y is happening on that, at least in terms of the DX team. I am currently hacking on quicklist a11y and making some good progress. I feel that unless I work on unity 3D, it won't be looked at much this cycle, which sucks because I already have a pike of work on the Ubiquity a11y spec, https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-o-accessibility-ubiquity.
[22:29] <TheMuso> Pendulum: Not that I know of, that discussion may very likely happen next week in Dublin.
[22:29] <TheMuso> In fact I want it to happen.
[22:29] <TheMuso> So I will make it a priority that it gets talked about.
[22:30] <Pendulum> :)
[22:30] <maco> TheMuso: i got commit access to ubiquity, so i guess you can push some ubiquity stuff my way if you need. though, tell me first (don't pull an apachelogger...assigned all kde-related ubiquity bugs to me without asking)
[22:30] <AlanBell> TheMuso: you are over in Dublin?
[22:30] <TheMuso> AlanBell: I will be next week for the rally, yes.
[22:30] <TheMuso> maco: Thanks, but I am currently talkto design about UI stuff relating to how we present/activate accessibility profiles at the first installer screen.
[22:31] <maco> oh, so over-my-head stuff
[22:31] <TheMuso> Once thats sorted, coding will begin in urnist, I OHPEby tomorrow, if not early next week.
[22:31] <TheMuso> gah typing
[22:33] <AlanBell> so that would fix the problem on boot where you have to press a key when you see the magic symbol
[22:33] <maco> AlanBell: s/when/if/
[22:33] <TheMuso> AlanBell: Yes.
[22:34] <paul_h> that's what I wonna hear... :)
[22:34] <TheMuso> Thats pretty much it from me at this point.
[22:35] <Pendulum> maco: do you have anything to add on any of your devel work?
[22:35] <paul_h> TheMuso: is there anyway I can have some input on how activating a11y on boot might work?
[22:35] <TheMuso> paul_h: What do you have in mind? I am currently talking to our design team about it at the moment.
[22:35] <maco> i have patches from Cheri703 to go through for adding accessible names to Ubiquity GTK and then i intend to knock out the variable name loop
[22:36] <maco> for Ubiquity KDE,  it has to run before i can make it accessible
[22:36] <paul_h> well, potential hotkeys for activating a11y, that kind of thing
[22:36] <TheMuso> paul_h: Right, again, what do you have ni mind? Do you mind emailing me your thoughts?
[22:37] <TheMuso> So we don't clog up the meeting?
[22:37] <TheMuso> paul_h: Or we could talk about it after the meeting.
[22:37] <paul_h> TheMuso: sure, I'll be around after
[22:39] <Pendulum> okay, are we all set on Development then?
[22:39] <TheMuso> Yep.
[22:39] <Pendulum> #topic Discussion of community plans for Oneiric not on blueprint
[22:39] <meetingology> TOPIC: Discussion of community plans for Oneiric not on blueprint
[22:40] <Pendulum> I just wanted to bring these things up because we've got a lot more on blueprints this cycle that are development related than community related
[22:40] <Pendulum> also, some of these things I've been asked about from other teams
[22:40] <Pendulum> so to start off
[22:40] <Pendulum> Personas
[22:40] <Pendulum> AlanBell: any status update on the remaining ones?
[22:41] <AlanBell> not a lot of progress recently to be honest
[22:41] <AlanBell> so there is Simon who is partially sighted that is in progress
[22:42] <AlanBell> there is a deaf user, and one with cognitive issues
[22:43] <AlanBell> need to do a few collaborative sessions to get them hammered out and published
[22:44] <Pendulum> ok
[22:44] <Pendulum> AlanBell: do you want to send an e-mail to the list maybe to schedule something so we can do maybe a day of personas 'hacking' to get them done?
[22:45] <AlanBell> good idea, I will do that
[22:45] <Pendulum> I'm thinking if we could get 3-5 people to just sit for a day or two and work on them they could get done
[22:45] <Pendulum> and they are something joanie of Gnome A11y has asked me about
[22:45] <AlanBell> yeah, I know joanie liked the first two
[22:49] <Pendulum> okay
[22:49] <Pendulum> guess that's it on personas
[22:49] <Pendulum> Outreach
[22:49] <Pendulum> we're already going to do the Ubuntu Classroom things
[22:49] <Pendulum> are there other outreach things that we'd like to do this cycle?
[22:50] <paul_h> fairly trivial but what about a twitter feed and maybe a facebook page etc?
[22:52] <AlanBell> I did a podcast interview
[22:52] <Pendulum> are other people interested in twitter or facebook pages?
[22:53] <paul_h> I just noticed that some of the other projects mention them when I was looking at the wiki
[22:53] <AlanBell> I am kind of interested in the facebook thing, I know the Ubuntu one is massively popular
[22:53] <AlanBell> not quite sure what we would do with a twitter feed as a team
[22:53] <paul_h> perhaps just post links to blog posts etc
[22:54] <Pendulum> I do try to tweet at minimum meetings and stuff and random a11y related stuff I come across
[22:54] <charlie-tca> We could just feed twitter posts to Ubuntu_OS, which seems to be the official Ubuntu account
[22:54] <Pendulum> anyone can feel free to follow me. I'm colona13 on twitter :)
[22:54] <AlanBell> ooh, I am trying to get planet-a11y.net back up and running
[22:55] <charlie-tca> I'm charlietca1 on twitter and identi.ca
[22:55] <paul_h> I think it's a good way of spreading the word among people not already entrenched in ubuntu
[22:55] <Pendulum> also, we have our blog
[22:55] <AlanBell> it has been taken down for months and months because they had problems keeping it accessible because the diverse feeds it was aggregating broke it
[22:55] <Pendulum> which we can post to
[22:55] <TheMuso> I am themuso82 on twitter.
[22:56] <AlanBell> and I am alanbell_libsol
[22:57] <paul_h> we still have one more topic to cover
[22:57] <Pendulum> yeah
[22:57] <Pendulum> do we want to talk about it breifly or put it off?
[22:57] <Pendulum> (I really have to go at the 60 minute mark)
[22:57] <paul_h> guess it depends on whether or not anyone's got anything much to say on it
[22:58] <TheMuso> I don't think so, the only docs we are really wanting to do this cycle are the architecture doc, which has been covered.
[22:58] <TheMuso> And once complete, there will be docs for ubiquity a11y bits that are being added.
[22:58] <TheMuso> That will need to be written.
[22:58] <charlie-tca> carry it forward to the next meeting
[22:58] <TheMuso> I'll let everyone know when that is ready to be written.
[22:58] <TheMuso> Sounds good.
[22:58] <charlie-tca> and try to get j1mc to the meeting, since he does write docs
[22:59] <AlanBell> there is this that I was working on http://pad.ubuntu.com/AccessibilityInfrastructure
[22:59] <AlanBell> should become a blog post when done I think
[23:00] <TheMuso> Cool.
[23:00] <TheMuso> charlie-tca: Good suggestino.
[23:01] <TheMuso> Ok I think we are done here.
[23:01] <Pendulum> okay great!
[23:01] <Pendulum> Thanks everyone for coming!
[23:01] <Pendulum> #endmeeting
[23:01] <TheMuso> Thanks folks.
[23:01] <meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Jun 22 22:01:25 2011 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell . (v 0.1.4)
[23:01] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://mootbot.libertus.co.uk/ubuntu-accessibility/2011/ubuntu-accessibility.2011-06-22-21.01.moin.txt
[23:01] <AlanBell> thanks Pendulum 
[23:01]  * TheMuso -> breakfast.
[23:01]  * Pendulum --> dinner
[23:01]  * AlanBell -> bed
[23:01] <TheMuso> paul_h: Give me a few minutes, and we can talk about accessibility profile activation.
[23:01] <AlanBell> timezones are great
[23:02] <charlie-tca> Pendulum: thanks for chairing
[23:02] <paul_h> TheMuso: sure
[23:07] <TheMuso> paul_h: Ok, so what do you have in mind?
[23:07] <paul_h> well, we're talking about the screen where users can pick the language and then whether to try or install?
[23:09] <TheMuso> Right.
[23:10] <paul_h> TheMuso: so, I's want some indication of when this screen had appeared, followed by an easy way to then activate Orca...
[23:12] <TheMuso> paul_h: Right. The plan at this point is to play a sound when the first installer screen appears. At that point, you will use a keyboard shortcut to launch the profile you want. Unfortunately the user will have to know ahead of time what the keyboard shortcut is. However, I may be able to mitigate that somewhat.
[23:13] <paul_h> perhaps if the user does nothing for a certain amount of time then speech could be activated? as in with macs?
[23:14] <maco> cjwatson said he would not be opposed to a solution like that
[23:14] <TheMuso> paul_h: That was discussed, however that doesn't solve the language issue.
[23:14] <maco> did the casper-time language asker go away?
[23:15] <TheMuso> maco: No.
[23:15] <paul_h> would there be any visual indication of accessibility choices? a "universal access options" button for example
[23:15] <TheMuso> paul_h: Yes, there will be.
[23:15] <TheMuso> In the form of an indicator.
[23:15] <TheMuso> Which will be accessible from the keyboard.
[23:15] <charlie-tca> There should be both audio and visual indicators, so any user can know what is happening.
[23:16] <paul_h> as far as language goes, what can we do? orca has no support for detecting languages. it starts up in English whatever the locale
[23:17] <TheMuso> The issue is not even to do with Orca, its how do we tell the user about the profiles in a language that they understand that hasn't been selected yet.
[23:19] <maco> TheMuso: read off language names in their own language, and user mashes button when they hear their language said, then start up in that?
[23:19] <paul_h> the only way around that I see is to put the user immediately on a language selection list that speaks each language as the user arrows up and down it. but we don't even have synthesiser language support  for every language ubuntu offers
[23:19] <maco> english español francais zhong-guo nihongo
[23:19] <TheMuso> paul_h: Right, and doing that would require another screen, i.e we couldn't really do that with the existing screen.
[23:20] <TheMuso> maco: I am not sure how useful that would end up being. I know I wouldn't want to have to do that.
[23:20] <TheMuso> Its easier to know ahead of time how to load the profile.
[23:22] <paul_h> so the language issue aside (not sure what we can really do there for now), are we thinking a hotkey for each a11y profile, or a hotkey to bring up some kind of universal access screen?
[23:23] <TheMuso> A hotkey for the first 4 profiles, i.e the high contrast, magnification, blindness and braille profiles.
[23:24] <TheMuso> And maybe a hotkey for the minor motor difficulties profile, but with sticky keys enabled.
[23:24] <TheMuso> The last profile will likely need a dwell click gesture.
[23:26] <paul_h> do we need separate blindness and braille profiles? surely if the user is blind and has a braille display connected they'd want it to work?
[23:26] <TheMuso> Thats a good point actually.
[23:27] <TheMuso> One other thing I will be working on for this cycle and as a part of this blueprint, is revamping the way we configure non-USB Braille displays.,
[23:27] <TheMuso> i.e bluetooth/serial.
[23:27] <paul_h> doesn't hurt to have brltty running and orca set to use braille if there's no braille display connected
[23:28] <TheMuso> Right, brltty will be running if udev detects a display. We can check for that, and set Orca up to use it... even without the need to configure a profile. :)
[23:29] <TheMuso> paul_h: You gave me a wonderful idea.
[23:29] <TheMuso> All I need now, is a USB display to test with. :)
[23:29] <TheMuso> But thats for post alpha 2 I think.
[23:30] <paul_h> well I have a usb braille display if I can help test anything
[23:30] <paul_h> I want to get more involved
[23:31] <TheMuso> Cool.
[23:31] <TheMuso> I am seriously thinking about picking one up.
[23:31] <TheMuso> And before the end of the financial year, so I can get it into my books and try and get a tax deduction on it.
[23:32] <paul_h> I'd like a bluetooth one, could use it with my iPhone then
[23:32] <maco> iphones can do brltty?
[23:33] <paul_h> voiceover can use bluetooth braille displays, yeah
[23:33] <maco> i knew they were a11y awesome sauce, but i thought they just TALKED
[23:33] <TheMuso> paul_h: So to be clear, my idea is this. If you have a USB display, and its connected at live CD boot, come installer time, your display will be found, BrlTTY will be running, and Orca will be started up for you configured to use Braille, and away you go, without the need to activate anything.
[23:34] <paul_h> yes, having a connected braille display is a good tip off that you'll want the blindness profile
[23:34] <TheMuso> Yep.
[23:34] <TheMuso> And then we only offer the braille choice for those who don't have a USB display.
[23:34] <paul_h> and if you don't, then you wait for an audible prompt and do a key combo to start Orca
[23:35] <TheMuso> Not sure we will easily be able to handle the bluetooth usecsae yet, but thast something I want to look at in the long term.
[23:35] <TheMuso> paul_h: Yep.
[23:35] <JanC> TheMuso: aren't most braille displays using the generic USB-to-serial USBID ?
[23:35] <TheMuso> JanC: No.
[23:35] <JanC> I that was an issue in the past
[23:35] <JanC> I remember that *
[23:36] <TheMuso> Yes it was, I am just trying to remember what displays that was with. I will have to look it up.
[23:36] <JanC> nice if the manufacturers got their own USB IDs, that helps a lot!
[23:37] <TheMuso> Yep.
[23:37] <TheMuso> I think sed display manufacturers cut corners by using a USB to serial chip internally.
[23:37] <TheMuso> And using Windows drivers, of course thats not an issue. :S
[23:37] <JanC> yes, GPS receivers had the same problem
[23:38] <JanC> that's how I learned about it first actually
[23:38] <paul_h> can we use udev to detect braille displays on an installed system, so the user never has to edit the /etc/default/brltty file?
[23:38] <JanC> GPS receivers, braille displays and industrial metering devices all using the same USB ID...
[23:39] <TheMuso> JanC: Yeah thats poor form I agree.
[23:39] <JanC> paul_h: that should be possible if they use their own USB ID
[23:39] <TheMuso> paul_h: Thats how it should work now/
[23:40] <paul_h> my pacmate 20 isn't activated till I edit the brltty file...
[23:41] <JanC> paul_h: what is it shown as in 'lsusb' ?
[23:43] <paul_h> shows up as Freedom Scientific (the vendor)
[23:43] <JanC> so it has its own ID
[23:44] <TheMuso> Could you post the vendor and product IDs?
[23:44] <JanC> and things could be better
[23:44] <TheMuso> I need to drag brltty into the new world order of running as a user, at least for use with Orca.
[23:46] <TheMuso> paul_h: Could you post the entire line from lsusb where your FS display is mentioned?
[23:47] <paul_h> says ID 0f4e:0111 Freedom Scientific
[23:50] <TheMuso> Hrm ok, it is listed here. I will need to go through how we have brltty wired up again. :S
[23:50] <TheMuso> I really wish it ran per user only.
[23:50] <TheMuso> But it can't do that yet.
[23:52] <paul_h> TheMuso: but doesn't the /etc/default/brltty file tell brltty never to start up unless it's editted?
[23:52] <TheMuso> paul_h: Yes, but I thought we had something in place so that USB displays bypassed that if they were detected.
[23:52] <TheMuso> Which is why I need to check things again.
[23:54] <TheMuso> brb