| penguin42 | Mat84: OK, so if it's not the X server that crashed it must be something else, can you pastebin the output of dmesg ? | 00:01 |
|---|---|---|
| Mat84 | wow that's long | 00:01 |
| penguin42 | Mat84: There's a command you can install called pastebinit | 00:02 |
| Mat84_ | hm, not sure how I'd get it from my laptop to this one | 00:04 |
| penguin42 | Mat84: Other than not starting graphics is the other laptop connected to the net? | 00:04 |
| Mat84_ | I don't know | 00:05 |
| Mat84_ | haven't used the internet from the console before | 00:05 |
| Mat84_ | sorry :( | 00:05 |
| penguin42 | Mat84_: No problem; issue the command sudo apt-get install pastebinit | 00:05 |
| Mat84_ | "WARNING: The following packages cannot be authenticated!" | 00:06 |
| penguin42 | It shouldn't do that | 00:07 |
| Mat84_ | python-configjobj pastebinit | 00:07 |
| Mat84_ | yeh, does that mean it's not online? | 00:07 |
| penguin42 | no | 00:07 |
| penguin42 | does it carry on and ask if you want to install it? | 00:08 |
| Mat84_ | yweh | 00:08 |
| Mat84_ | "install these packages without verification" | 00:08 |
| Mat84 | sorry, got disconnected, back now | 00:10 |
| penguin42 | Mat84: OK, so I think you can now do sudo dmesg | pastebinit | 00:12 |
| Mat84_ | yeh, the laptop isn't online, it failed to resolved gb.archive.ubuntu.com | 00:15 |
| jpds | Cool. | 00:15 |
| penguin42 | Mat84_: Bah ok, erm what's the last few lines of the dmesg say | 00:15 |
| Mat84_ | it's all stuff about the wireless card | 00:15 |
| Mat84_ | cycling through the channels | 00:16 |
| penguin42 | Mat84_: hmm that's boring; hmm - well look, what you can try and do is move all the config files out of your user directory and see if that lets you loging | 00:17 |
| * penguin42 eats that last g | 00:17 | |
| Mat84_ | ok I'll give that a try | 00:17 |
| penguin42 | Mat84_: So, logged in on the console try something like mkdir baddotfiles; mv .g* .c* .X* .x* .m* baddotfiles | 00:18 |
| penguin42 | Mat84_: Then logout of the console and see if you can login on X - I may have missed some | 00:18 |
| Mat84_ | ok, and that will leave all my work stuff alone yeh? | 00:18 |
| Mat84_ | is says "mv: cannon stat .m* : No such file or directory" | 00:23 |
| Mat84_ | what folder do I want to be in when I run the command? | 00:23 |
| penguin42 | your home directory; just leave the .m* off | 00:26 |
| Mat84_ | is says it for all of them | 00:26 |
| penguin42 | Mat84_: It'll only move the files into the 'old' directory, it should leave work files etc - but even if it doesn't it'll dump them in old | 00:26 |
| penguin42 | odd - you really should have some dot files | 00:27 |
| Mat84_ | this is from user@computer:~$ | 00:28 |
| penguin42 | yeh | 00:28 |
| Azelphur | haha, my brother was messing around with the 3 site trying to get it to send him the 3 skype android app, messing around changing the URL and stuff to trick it | 00:29 |
| Azelphur | and three just sent him a text message, "No." | 00:29 |
| penguin42 | haha | 00:30 |
| hamitron | :D | 00:34 |
| Mat84_ | there are some .files, but nothing starting with those letters... | 00:35 |
| Mat84_ | could it be that be the problem? | 00:36 |
| Mat84_ | ok, ignore my blatent disregard for English | 00:36 |
| Mat84_ | *could that be the problem | 00:37 |
| GaryLittlemore | I'm running Ubuntu 11.04 x64 I've install program and then removed it but when I go into 'Application' the icon is still in there. But when I click it nothing happens. How do I remove the icon? | 00:39 |
| Mat84_ | penguin - should I maybe try creating a new user and see if they can log in? | 00:41 |
| penguin42 | Mat84_: Yes that's definitely a good idea | 00:44 |
| Mat84_ | *crosses fingers* | 00:45 |
| Mat84_ | ok, they've logged in fine... | 00:46 |
| penguin42 | Mat84_: Cool; so one or more of the . files in your old users directory is probably broke | 00:48 |
| Mat84_ | ok | 00:48 |
| Mat84_ | so for this user there is a .config folder | 00:48 |
| Mat84_ | but there was not for me | 00:48 |
| Mat84_ | would it be a stupid idea just to copy that directory? | 00:52 |
| Mat84_ | I just created the empty directory .config | 00:59 |
| Mat84_ | and it now works!! | 00:59 |
| Mat84_ | can log in | 00:59 |
| Mat84_ | thanks so much for your help penguin | 00:59 |
| penguin42 | Mat84_: I wonder where the heck your .config directory went?! | 01:02 |
| Mat84_ | no idea | 01:02 |
| Mat84_ | but it's a pretty big thing to have gone wrong!! | 01:02 |
| Mat84_ | and why, if ubuntu didn't find one, it didn't create a default one? | 01:02 |
| Mat84_ | all my application configurations have gone, but that's not a problem | 01:03 |
| Mat84_ | maybe a few saved passwords in firefox I won't remember, but that's hardly the end of the world! | 01:03 |
| Mat84_ | all my data is there which is the important thing | 01:03 |
| Mat84_ | (and to be fair it was mostly backed up anyway) | 01:04 |
| penguin42 | Mat84_: Actually youre mozilla stuff probably is still there | 01:04 |
| Mat84_ | nope :( | 01:05 |
| Mat84_ | even though that was in a different dictory | 01:05 |
| penguin42 | Mat84_: Are you using encrypted home directory? | 01:06 |
| Mat84_ | yeh | 01:06 |
| penguin42 | ok, keep an eye out to see if anything else has disappeared - sounds like ecryptfs had a bad day | 01:06 |
| Mat84_ | hm, so you think some of my files might be corrupted/missing? | 01:07 |
| penguin42 | well, if .config disappeared who knows what else did | 01:08 |
| Mat84_ | man I hope not | 01:08 |
| Mat84_ | everything looks fine... | 01:09 |
| Mat84_ | files I've checked all open ok, and anything important is backed up | 01:10 |
| Mat84_ | I was thinking of installing gnome3, but I might leave it, had enough issues with ubuntu for this week! | 01:11 |
| jacobw | gnome3 has bigger controls than gnome2 | 01:11 |
| penguin42 | yeh, you should only install it if you know how to dig yourself out of the whole it might create | 01:11 |
| jacobw | other than that.. the differences are minimal. | 01:12 |
| Mat84_ | and as you can tell penguin, I can't ;) | 01:12 |
| jacobw | ? | 01:13 |
| Mat84_ | jacob, I am not a strong enough linux/ubuntu user to fix any problems that switching to gnome3 might result it | 01:14 |
| Mat84_ | *result in | 01:14 |
| jacobw | i wouldn't bother with gnome3, unity is better | 01:15 |
| jacobw | apps>paradigms. | 01:15 |
| Mat84_ | I'm not a big fan of unity | 01:16 |
| jacobw | it has its cons | 01:16 |
| * jacobw thinks 12.04 will be great :D | 01:17 | |
| Mat84_ | I'm just happy to not be using windows7, ubuntu broke last Sunday, and tonight was the first chance I've had to fix it | 01:17 |
| jacobw | what's up with it? | 01:18 |
| Mat84_ | nothing now :D | 01:18 |
| Mat84_ | thanks to penguin | 01:18 |
| jacobw | :D | 01:18 |
| Mat84_ | but as it turned out, after a normal shutdown, couldn't log in, and the .config folder had gone! | 01:19 |
| jacobw | i've also had trouble with ecryptfs | 01:19 |
| Mat84_ | nothing I have is super confidential, maybe I should turn it off? | 01:19 |
| jacobw | i'm sure its possible | 01:20 |
| jacobw | sorry.. | 01:20 |
| jacobw | not sure | 01:20 |
| * jacobw is silly with negations | 01:20 | |
| Mat84_ | ah ok | 01:20 |
| Azelphur | http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/ATT-No-Longer-Wants-Kevin-Mitnick-As-A-Customer-104035 | 01:22 |
| Azelphur | hahahaha | 01:22 |
| Mat84_ | :) | 01:23 |
| Mat84_ | hm, one thing that doesn't work, is evolution | 01:25 |
| jacobw | mitnick is awesome | 01:25 |
| Azelphur | indeed | 01:25 |
| jacobw | the guy who inspired me to learn about computers :| | 01:25 |
| jacobw | in a time lapse however. | 01:26 |
| ^aDaM | Morning all :) | 01:33 |
| AlanBell | morning | 09:26 |
| MartijnVdS | \o | 09:28 |
| danfish | ahoy hoy saveloys! | 09:31 |
| danfish | gonna be a scorcher in the UK :) | 09:31 |
| MartijnVdS | danfish: what, with 15C and clouds? | 09:33 |
| danfish | MartijnVdS: heh - nah, already 24C in my garden :) | 09:37 |
| MartijnVdS | danfish: Sounds good :) | 09:38 |
| MartijnVdS | "Deep South"? ;) | 09:38 |
| danfish | just call me Bubba ;) | 09:39 |
| danfish | (apologies to any Americans from Louisiana for that gross generalisation) | 09:40 |
| danfish | local resident's association BBQ today - I'm wearing my Natty T-Shirt and have a few CD's in case asked :) | 09:44 |
| kvarley | Is there a gnome app which will let me shrink a dvd9 to dvd5? | 09:52 |
| MartijnVdS | kvarley: there's dvd95 | 09:52 |
| MartijnVdS | kvarley: which should help :) | 09:53 |
| kvarley | MartijnVdS: Thanks :) | 09:53 |
| MartijnVdS | never tried it though | 09:54 |
| kvarley | conversion error with dvd95 lol | 10:01 |
| brobostigon | good morning everyone. | 10:21 |
| daubers | Morning | 10:29 |
| MartijnVdS | \o | 10:29 |
| brobostigon | morning daubers and MartijnVdS | 10:32 |
| alexcockell | HI all, I'm a little worried on the Firefox front with what I'v eread.. | 11:14 |
| brobostigon | why? | 11:15 |
| alexcockell | At least I trust Ubuntu devs will shim it to not lose too much in usability... | 11:17 |
| alexcockell | I'm an LTS-LTS user - I am not looking forward to having to relearn or yank more and more per-user addons to regain functionality.. | 11:18 |
| alexcockell | Major releases every 6 weeks?! | 11:19 |
| AlanBell | alexcockell: it is a browser. URL bar at the top, content below, click on the links to go other places. What could possibly go wrong? | 11:19 |
| alexcockell | Status bars? Adblocker, Noscript version handling... | 11:20 |
| alexcockell | Citrix plugins... | 11:20 |
| alexcockell | Even the handling of site login info, cookies, histry, cache... | 11:21 |
| alexcockell | How the hell am i supposed to verify that plugin x isn't going to bork my browser? | 11:21 |
| AlanBell | hmm, dunno, how do you do that now? | 11:22 |
| AlanBell | the only plugin I use is firebug | 11:22 |
| alexcockell | I use Adblocker (ok, from the repos) | 11:22 |
| alexcockell | Noscript.. | 11:22 |
| alexcockell | But I also have a lappie running XP that I use to remotely work.. | 11:23 |
| alexcockell | And that's still on 3.6.18... as are the Lucid client.. | 11:23 |
| AlanBell | I am missing the part where it is going to lose functionality or break cookies etc. | 11:24 |
| alexcockell | But it seems crazy that Mozilla haven't thought of the enterprise. | 11:24 |
| alexcockell | Yeah - but a tab-bar which scrolls? Rather than being able to tell at a glance all the tabs you have open? | 11:24 |
| * daubers sorts out his workspaces | 11:24 | |
| alexcockell | Apparently there are *all kinds* of usability own-goals.. | 11:25 |
| AlanBell | yeah, it has a tab bar that scrolls when the tabs get unreadably small | 11:25 |
| AlanBell | there is a little dropdown to the right of it which gives you a menu list of all the tab names | 11:26 |
| alexcockell | The problem is - there is no easy way for a nontechie to revert that behaviour in Edit/Prefs (or Tools/options inm Win version) | 11:27 |
| AlanBell | why would a non-techie care/notice? | 11:27 |
| alexcockell | You'd be surprised. | 11:27 |
| alexcockell | I now do capacity planning - but I used to do support.. | 11:27 |
| popey | people should be beaten until the stop getting annoyed by the littlest changes | 11:28 |
| popey | or something | 11:28 |
| alexcockell | As in "user blindly accepts update - functionality is apparently broken without warning" | 11:28 |
| AlanBell | user blindly accepts update, sees facebook still works, shrugs, continues pretending to work | 11:29 |
| alexcockell | Hmm - however most of the user community have learned through "monkey see monkey do" processes. | 11:29 |
| alexcockell | But reverting this behaviour apparently requires a developer-level change. | 11:29 |
| alexcockell | Rather than a check-box on the Appearance tab. | 11:29 |
| AlanBell | well it is just a UI improvement for people who have more than 14 tabs open | 11:30 |
| AlanBell | 20 tabs on my other screen before it scrolls | 11:30 |
| alexcockell | Yeah... but the methods for chaning/reverting requires the modification of a stylesheet... | 11:30 |
| directhex | mozilla don't really care about long-term support models. and their enterprise support generally is pooey | 11:31 |
| alexcockell | Which, if a user got it wrong, could bork the browser (effectively) | 11:31 |
| directhex | still no group policy stuff on windows | 11:31 |
| alexcockell | Yup - they're just handing it back to MS on a platter.. | 11:31 |
| AlanBell | you could write a plugin to change the tab behaviour | 11:31 |
| alexcockell | Yeah - but another 3rd-party app.. another potential security issue.. another app to maintain... | 11:32 |
| AlanBell | in general I think there should be more ldap/policy stuff in open source software, that is a fair point | 11:32 |
| Myrtti | its nice to see that the world still rotates and the problems stay so small especially on IRC... | 11:33 |
| daubers | problem is.... ldap is both hard and sucks | 11:33 |
| AlanBell | yes, ldap should suck less | 11:33 |
| alexcockell | Agreed... | 11:34 |
| AlanBell | I never entirely got my head round it, everything seems to want a totally different and conflicting schema | 11:34 |
| popey | friend of my /2 | 11:35 |
| popey | bah! | 11:35 |
| daubers | Gah | 11:41 |
| daubers | Wifes laptop stops responding to the network, she pulls the router power, I lose a half completed 4.3GB download | 11:41 |
| MartijnVdS | wget -c : | 11:43 |
| daubers | server doesn't like you doing that | 11:43 |
| daubers | I think it upsets the sources load balancer | 11:43 |
| MartijnVdS | Get a better server ;) | 11:43 |
| daubers | MartijnVdS: Not mine! Apples | 11:43 |
| popey | wifey tells me one of her friends (who is a windows-hater) wants to get a 'netbook' for her daughter. but doesnt want windows on it. | 11:44 |
| popey | dunno what apps she'll need but this is 'for school work' (hah) | 11:44 |
| alexcockell | So she might need a Windows VM wayway? | 11:45 |
| alexcockell | *anyway? | 11:45 |
| popey | I wouldn't put a Windows VM on a netbook | 11:45 |
| alexcockell | Yeah - point taken. | 11:46 |
| popey | it's also two OSs to manage rather than one | 11:46 |
| AlanBell | http://chrome.angrybirds.com/ works on firefox too \o/ | 11:49 |
| AlanBell | smoother in chromium | 11:51 |
| popey | heh, just opened firefox on this computer, last time I used it was december last year | 11:56 |
| daubers | Ooooh new phones week next week \o/ | 12:00 |
| daubers | Need to ask O2 for my PAK code | 12:00 |
| popey | ITYM PUK code | 12:01 |
| daubers | thats the welly | 12:01 |
| daubers | Getting a Nexus S from work as my new work phone and a galaxy s 2 on my personal contract \o/ | 12:01 |
| AlanBell | popey: sometimes things open in firefox, sometimes in chromium, mostly I don't know which I am using | 12:03 |
| AlanBell | so for messing about with compiz plugins I decided I needed two computers, so I can ssh into the one I will be breaking | 12:05 |
| AlanBell | should I install oneirirc on it I wonder | 12:06 |
| popey | tempted to switch to SSD on all my computers now | 12:07 |
| popey | just lack of storage space that's annoying | 12:07 |
| MartijnVdS | popey: you could use a NAS for that (like my Synology.. ♥) | 12:08 |
| popey | yeah | 12:08 |
| popey | i have a server with lots of space | 12:08 |
| popey | but right now its.. | 12:08 |
| popey | Directory inode 2848245 has an unallocated block #3452. Allocate? yes | 12:08 |
| popey | doing a fsck... | 12:08 |
| popey | ☹ | 12:08 |
| MartijnVdS | oops? | 12:09 |
| popey | i shrank the volume | 12:09 |
| popey | now fsck is reporting lots of those | 12:09 |
| BigRedS | shrinking volumes is essentially playing russian roulette with your data :/ | 12:28 |
| daubers | popey: I have a NAS in the office thats stuffed with SSDs \o/ | 12:30 |
| daubers | Do want one for my mac mini and one for my laptop though :( | 12:30 |
| BigRedS | AlanBell: smartphone ssh client? | 12:31 |
| AlanBell | irssi connectbot | 12:31 |
| BigRedS | yeah | 12:32 |
| BigRedS | ah, I missed the beginning of that conversation :) | 12:32 |
| penguin42 | hmm last nights xorg-edgers seems to be very unhappy for me | 12:45 |
| MartijnVdS | what happened? | 12:54 |
| penguin42 | black screen on kde, but some stuff running; when I did a kwin --replace form a console I got streams of errors 'this is a driver bug' out of it - unfortunately didn't remember the rest of the message - pre-breakfast bug | 12:57 |
| penguin42 | I'm a bit surprised actually to ind xorg-edgers contains a rebuilt kdebase-workspace | 12:58 |
| penguin42 | only noticed it while doing a purge | 12:59 |
| penguin42 | hmm breakfast is a good idea | 13:06 |
| === Monster_Killer is now known as MonsterKiller | ||
| AlanBell | anyone use unetbootin? it just comes up with Boot Error for me | 14:11 |
| BigRedS | I've used it several times without that error | 14:12 |
| dwatkins | I've used unetbootin many times without problem, both using a manually downloaded ISO and the ones it downloads for me. | 14:13 |
| BigRedS | In fact, once I've got over it's weird insistence upon my having already mounted the volume, I don't think I've ever had a problem | 14:13 |
| daubers_ | AlanBell: IIRC I get the boot error with the server CD | 14:13 |
| AlanBell | ah, think it is because the usb was formatted to fat32 | 14:13 |
| BigRedS | thinking about it, it's been a while since I did a ubuntu with it | 14:13 |
| BigRedS | Ah, or anything other than ext | 14:14 |
| * AlanBell reformats to ext3 and tries again | 14:14 | |
| popey | uh | 14:14 |
| popey | it _should_ be fat32 | 14:14 |
| popey | or vfat or whatever you call it | 14:14 |
| dwatkins | I was about to say what popey said. | 14:14 |
| AlanBell | http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/linux-general-1/unetbootin-always-boot-error-upon-reboot-704042/ | 14:15 |
| daubers_ | Mac Minutes are rubbish | 14:19 |
| gord | for all the things i dislike in gnome shell, there are a few nice things - its nice that when you open activities all your windows are there - never really used expose ever | 14:30 |
| AlanBell | well it doesn't seem to work with ext3 either, but different error | 14:30 |
| BigRedS | gord: I _love_ the empathy integration in gnome 3 | 14:31 |
| AlanBell | with fat32 I get Boot Error, with ext3 it says missing operating system, then boots from hdd | 14:31 |
| penguin42 | AlanBell: I'm confused - I thought unetbootin did everything needed to the drive; I don't think you need to format anything | 14:31 |
| BigRedS | or gnome shell or whatever it's called | 14:31 |
| penguin42 | AlanBell: You are telling unetbootin to use /dev/sdx not /dev/sdx1 ? | 14:31 |
| AlanBell | penguin42: I didn't either | 14:31 |
| gord | the main thing that bugs me about shell is how damn slow it is | 14:31 |
| AlanBell | penguin42: I did tell it to use /dev/sdb | 14:31 |
| BigRedS | I really dislike how it removes my workspaces just 'cause there's nothing on them | 14:31 |
| BigRedS | I've no idea who thought that was a sane idea | 14:32 |
| penguin42 | gord: Javascript - what else do you need to say? | 14:32 |
| gord | i mean, it took us six months of effort to get away from mutter, but it was worth it. you just can't stall the rendering pipeline in the window manager like clutter does | 14:32 |
| gord | i can't figure out how to get it to launch a second instance of some application without it going to a new workspace, but i assume i'm just using my computer wrong | 14:39 |
| BigRedS | there's a lot of htat in gnome3. "No, that's not what you want to do, so I did this for you" | 14:40 |
| * AlanBell gives up on unetbootin and tries startup disk creator | 14:50 | |
| AlanBell | boot error | 15:07 |
| AlanBell | yay, fixored | 15:16 |
| AlanBell | that is worth writing up somewhere | 15:16 |
| AlanBell | the bios was set to treat small USB devices as removeable disks and large ones as fixed disks | 15:17 |
| AlanBell | tell it to stop that auto detection and treat it as a fixed disk and it boots | 15:17 |
| brobostigon | interesting, | 15:18 |
| AlanBell | now to plug in speakers for an eyes-free install | 15:20 |
| mfraz74 | is this the new netbook? | 15:21 |
| AlanBell | no, it is an atom 230 desktop | 15:21 |
| * AlanBell debugs sound issue and plugs speakers into power for enhanced audio performance | 15:25 | |
| daubers_ | Hmmm, new version of xcode integrates git into the ide | 15:28 |
| daubers_ | Also, my chair needs oiling | 15:29 |
| BigRedS | I think mine needs new seals | 15:29 |
| BigRedS | I'm about 2" lower than I was this morning :/ | 15:29 |
| daubers_ | people complain about eclipse being memory hungry, at least it doesn't freeze the whole desktop like xcode does!!! | 16:14 |
| hamitron | lets just..... complain | 16:16 |
| hamitron | ;) | 16:16 |
| shauno | rabble rabble | 16:16 |
| hamitron | after watching that last Grand Prix, I don't think my brain is active enough to think of stuff to complain about | 16:17 |
| shauno | I've been finding xcode relaly quite strange. I'm used to vim. I'm not used to it constantly whining about how sloppy I am | 16:17 |
| hamitron | hehe | 16:18 |
| BigRedS | shauno: and "Syntax error: unexpected :w" all over the place? | 16:18 |
| hamitron | "but I wanted it like that damn it!" | 16:18 |
| hamitron | :D | 16:18 |
| shauno | hitting cmd-s I'm used to. having it constantly inject little threats about uninitialised vars is funky | 16:19 |
| hamitron | how do you remove a new line in vim? | 16:19 |
| BigRedS | backspace? | 16:20 |
| hamitron | I can never get that working | 16:20 |
| BigRedS | or s/\r// | 16:20 |
| BigRedS | or \n | 16:20 |
| BigRedS | yeah, \n | 16:21 |
| BigRedS | s/\n// | 16:21 |
| hamitron | hmmm | 16:22 |
| hamitron | it is removing the new line in vi on debian now | 16:22 |
| hamitron | I swear I've had problems with it before | 16:22 |
| BigRedS | well, it depends what the newline is | 16:23 |
| BigRedS | that wont match a dos newline | 16:23 |
| AlanBell | yay, oneiric installed and working | 16:23 |
| BigRedS | whoo! | 16:23 |
| AlanBell | just wish unity would play nicer with other compiz plugins | 16:23 |
| BigRedS | oh yeah, any unity-on-a-laptop users fancy confirming whether bug 685338 is in unity? I can't see it not being so... | 16:26 |
| lubotu3` | Launchpad bug 685338 in gnome-power-manager (Ubuntu) "Cannot ignore pressing of hibernate button" [Low,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/685338 | 16:26 |
| MartijnVdS | AlanBell: I wonder if "a compiz plugin" is the right place for it | 16:26 |
| directhex | i repeat, this time when not knocked offline: argh | 16:27 |
| AlanBell | MartijnVdS: I don't object to it being one, but it has some silly dependencies and settings which really shouldn't matter to unity | 16:29 |
| AlanBell | like it depends on largedesktop, which is provided by wall, and cube, and someone chose wall as the one it would insist on | 16:30 |
| AlanBell | try to turn on cube and it gets all in a fluster and you end up with no desktop no nothing, so have to ssh in and do unity --reset | 16:31 |
| AlanBell | which breaks all the other settings you changed | 16:31 |
| MartijnVdS | ah yes, things like that | 16:31 |
| DanielRM | Hello all. | 16:36 |
| Azelphur | havn't seen you around in a while DanielRM :P | 16:38 |
| brobostigon | DanielRM: good afternoon, long time no speak. | 16:38 |
| DanielRM | I've been feeling the IRC itch recently. :P | 16:42 |
| DanielRM | Plus I have a decent phone now so I can use IRC on the go. | 16:43 |
| DanielRM | How are you all? | 16:43 |
| === tom__ is now known as Aquilum | ||
| brobostigon | DanielRM: not bad, interesting things have happened. and you? also we have been looking after ##politics-uk. | 16:44 |
| DanielRM | I'm fine thanks. | 16:45 |
| brobostigon | :) | 16:45 |
| DanielRM | Who thought of the current topic there incidentally? I owe them a drink, it made me laugh. :) | 16:46 |
| brobostigon | DanielRM: i think that was AlanBell. | 16:46 |
| penguin42 | what is it? | 16:46 |
| DanielRM | 'Current topic: AV Yes, No, or a quantum entanglement of Maybe?' | 16:46 |
| DanielRM | AlanBell: should I ever meet you then I owe you a drink, be sure to remind me. :P | 16:47 |
| brobostigon | :) | 16:47 |
| alexcockell | Hmm - how to really cane an ADSL connection.. outside lots of Linux maint work.. | 16:51 |
| alexcockell | ... lots of video or audio streams from BBC servers... | 16:51 |
| alexcockell | Oh - was meaning to ask - when 12.04 is being approached... are there plans to offer definitive hardware compatibility info based on actual systems? | 16:53 |
| alexcockell | Considering Mark Shuttleworth's intention to go after consumers... | 16:53 |
| MartijnVdS | people aren't really thinking on that level about 12.04 yet | 16:54 |
| alexcockell | Not so much "will this or that component behave, but more akin to the netbook maint list... | 16:54 |
| alexcockell | As in - "Will the upgrade take on my Lenovo Ideapad S12" | 16:54 |
| MartijnVdS | alexcockell: there's the Ubunty Friendly program | 16:55 |
| alexcockell | But offering lookups based on complete systems. | 16:55 |
| MartijnVdS | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuFriendly | 16:55 |
| alexcockell | Yeah - OK - I bypassed that by buying my machines preinstalled from Linux Emporium - but I am a little concerned with all the issues around Unity and how much of a relearn it might be.. | 16:56 |
| MartijnVdS | it's not that hard :) | 16:56 |
| MartijnVdS | and as long as the machine is not older than ~2-3 years and has hardware acceleration, you're fine wrt. 3D support | 16:56 |
| alexcockell | Going from Windows to Hardy to Lucid on my Thinkpad R61 was only a little incremental... but muscle memory was usable. | 16:57 |
| MartijnVdS | Unity is the same, as long as you turn off the global menu bits | 16:58 |
| BigRedS | All the keyboard shortcuts remain, as far as I can tell | 16:58 |
| alexcockell | Yeah - but maybe that ought to be sensed - so if someone is upgrading from Lucid it switches it off by default and gives you the option of turning them *on*? | 16:59 |
| BigRedS | but the global menu is seen as a feture | 16:59 |
| BigRedS | *feature | 16:59 |
| BigRedS | by that logic, if you're upgrading to 11.04 it should notice and leave gnome 2 as the default DE | 17:00 |
| alexcockell | Maybe if you're a Mac user coming across - but not coming in from Windows. | 17:00 |
| BigRedS | Surely a feature is a feature, irrespective of what other things you might've used? | 17:01 |
| alexcockell | Yeah - ease people in - cos they might be concerned if they;'re upgrading and maybe the WLAN card craps out.. or the display plays up.. they don't really want to be mucking about with a new UI as well. | 17:01 |
| alexcockell | Question - have you wirked in 2nd line support? | 17:01 |
| BigRedS | but then you'd never change anything by default | 17:01 |
| alexcockell | *worked | 17:01 |
| BigRedS | and then you'd be running Debian | 17:01 |
| BigRedS | (which, incidentally, is why I'm running Debian) | 17:02 |
| alexcockell | Hmm - yeah -- I can kind of see where you're coming from... | 17:02 |
| * brobostigon is on debian right now, with gnome3/gnome-shell, and it is pretty much perfect. | 17:02 | |
| alexcockell | But I'm thinking of people tracking LTS-LTS on a machine they've bought preinstalled.. | 17:02 |
| BigRedS | still, at some point they'll get given unity | 17:02 |
| MartijnVdS | they bought it 2 years ago! time for a new machine! :P | 17:02 |
| DanielRM | Argh, apparently IRC doesn't like staying connected. | 17:03 |
| BigRedS | and were it believed by canonical/ubuntu that unity was confusing enough that you don't want to risk using it, they'd not ship it at all | 17:03 |
| BigRedS | the problem is that canonical disagree with several vocal users :) | 17:03 |
| brobostigon | MartijnVdS: yep, netbook-remix. | 17:03 |
| MartijnVdS | BigRedS: and common sense | 17:03 |
| BigRedS | MartijnVdS: have you been watching those MS ads? :) | 17:03 |
| alexcockell | Netbook-remix makes sense... on a netbook. | 17:03 |
| MartijnVdS | BigRedS: no, and I don't work for a hardware company either ;) | 17:03 |
| BigRedS | haha | 17:03 |
| MartijnVdS | I just like the shiny -- waiting for Intel to release Ivy Bridge i7s so I can upgrade :) | 17:04 |
| alexcockell | Unity probably makes sense on a display up to about 11 or 12in... | 17:04 |
| BigRedS | ms's current ad is basically "This woman's running an old PC and that makes her an idiot. You wouldn't want to be an idiot, would you?" | 17:04 |
| popey | i use it on a 23" screen alexcockell | 17:04 |
| popey | 1920x1080 | 17:04 |
| BigRedS | Unity works as fine for me on this biggy screen as gnome2 or kde or whatever did | 17:04 |
| MartijnVdS | Ooh look, popey has more inches :P | 17:04 |
| DanielRM | Apparently I just got 'outed' as a member of LulzSec. 0_0 | 17:04 |
| BigRedS | 23" or something, it's vast | 17:05 |
| alexcockell | OK.. | 17:05 |
| MartijnVdS | BigRedS: "Staggeringly vast" </Coupling> | 17:05 |
| popey | wow, coupling.. blast from the past | 17:05 |
| BigRedS | hah, yeah, that took a moment or two to register | 17:06 |
| MartijnVdS | popey: Moffat has always been good :) | 17:06 |
| alexcockell | I would, however, like to suggest that maybe easing people into the more jarring parts of the UI would be a good idea for the next LTS.. | 17:07 |
| BigRedS | easing people in? So supporting not just two UIs but several degrees between them? | 17:07 |
| popey | MartijnVdS: was that his work!? | 17:07 |
| DanielRM | What's Unity like for day-to-day use now? | 17:07 |
| alexcockell | Maybe have it detect that it's being upgraded rather than clean-installed... | 17:07 |
| MartijnVdS | popey: yes :) | 17:07 |
| BigRedS | DanielRM: I find it absolutely fine. But I don't use menus and that's where most of the dislike appears to come from | 17:08 |
| popey | blimey, news | 17:08 |
| BigRedS | alexcockell: still, that's another setup, so more support & more bugs | 17:08 |
| popey | DanielRM: in my experience the vast majority of hatred for unity comes from three camps:- | 17:08 |
| MartijnVdS | popey: (also, "Steve" and "Susan" vs "Steven" and "Sue" irl) | 17:08 |
| popey | a) people who have used it and don't like it | 17:08 |
| popey | b) people who don't use it and don't like it | 17:08 |
| popey | c) people who will never use it and don't like it | 17:08 |
| popey | b) and c) are bizarrely quite vocal | 17:09 |
| BigRedS | Those could all be the same person :) | 17:09 |
| MartijnVdS | popey: because they want to keep the option to not use it | 17:09 |
| MartijnVdS | popey: and that option is becoming harder to find by the day | 17:09 |
| popey | that option has never not been there | 17:09 |
| popey | pffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffft | 17:09 |
| BigRedS | it's as easy as it always has been | 17:09 |
| MartijnVdS | popey: no but it's been cleverly hidden :) | 17:09 |
| popey | ^ professional opinion | 17:09 |
| popey | hidden on a fedora cd | 17:09 |
| DanielRM | popey: I think that's always the same really. | 17:09 |
| DanielRM | The most vocal ones are those least affected. | 17:09 |
| popey | the rest of us who just use it seem not to be very vocal | 17:10 |
| BigRedS | well, I'm quite vocal about my dislike of gnome 3 despite not using it currently | 17:10 |
| alexcockell | All I'm suggesting is that group B could be people who are non-technical users using 10.04 as a tool and are worried that they'll come to update in about June next year then get thrown completely. | 17:10 |
| alexcockell | The ones who will trustingly accept updates. End-users. | 17:10 |
| BigRedS | yeah, and rather than that you'd like to upgrade them to something that nobody else is using - some halfway-house between gnome2 and unity? | 17:11 |
| BigRedS | _every_ ubuntu upgrade (IME) breaks at least one default | 17:11 |
| BigRedS | this is just a bigger one than usual | 17:11 |
| popey | heheh | 17:11 |
| alexcockell | but a hell of a lot more visible this time.. | 17:11 |
| alexcockell | It's basically going from something akin to Windoes Classic to Mac without warning, from what I understand | 17:12 |
| BigRedS | so at least it's obvious rather than the browser just not having any bookmarks in it any more | 17:12 |
| BigRedS | it's nowhere near as big as that | 17:12 |
| popey | "without warning" | 17:12 |
| popey | lolwut | 17:12 |
| alexcockell | Brwoser no longer has bookmarks? WTF made Mozilla do that? | 17:12 |
| popey | I think you're _somewhat_ over dramatising for comic effect here alexcockell | 17:12 |
| BigRedS | no, when the default changed | 17:12 |
| MartijnVdS | alexcockell: "people don't use them" | 17:12 |
| popey | I never use bookmarks, I don't care | 17:12 |
| * MartijnVdS uses the bookmark bar all the time | 17:13 | |
| BigRedS | when on upgrade sensible-browser went from FF to chrome (or whatever) people probably logged in, opened the browser and found no bookmarks | 17:13 |
| MartijnVdS | as a "quick links" bar | 17:13 |
| alexcockell | Maybe. But I also remember where a "minor" change has meant hell on a Monday morning.. | 17:13 |
| popey | so set you infrastructre up better | 17:13 |
| popey | dont let users update their own machines | 17:13 |
| alexcockell | Yeah - but I'm not talking corporate... | 17:13 |
| jane_ | #tog /join | 17:13 |
| popey | /join #tog | 17:13 |
| popey | i think you mean | 17:14 |
| MartijnVdS | jane_: other way around :) | 17:14 |
| jane_ | thanks I am a bit stupid | 17:14 |
| popey | alexcockell: oh, sorry I thought your main point was corporate. my bad | 17:14 |
| popey | no more than MartijnVdS | 17:14 |
| popey | :D | 17:14 |
| MartijnVdS | popey: :( | 17:14 |
| alexcockell | I'm referring to some who, say, bought their machine from Linux Emporium... | 17:14 |
| * popey hugs MartijnVdS | 17:14 | |
| MartijnVdS | popey: I'm Dutch, not stupid :P | 17:15 |
| popey | haha | 17:15 |
| popey | I like that | 17:15 |
| popey | get that as a tattoo | 17:15 |
| alexcockell | Come June - they see the Upgrade Distro option - they click on it.. "WHAT?" | 17:15 |
| popey | alexcockell: LTS users only see that in LTS | 17:15 |
| popey | so they wont see it for 2 yearas | 17:15 |
| popey | *years | 17:15 |
| alexcockell | 1 year. | 17:15 |
| popey | 10.04 to 12.04 is 2 years | 17:15 |
| alexcockell | 2012 is next LTS, right? | 17:16 |
| BigRedS | alexcockell: but your intended solution isn't ot just not upgrade, it's to invent yet another WM and upgrade them to that? | 17:16 |
| popey | ok, 1 from now, yeah | 17:16 |
| alexcockell | Not quite. | 17:16 |
| alexcockell | Per-app menus are still available by removing a package? Something? | 17:16 |
| BigRedS | per-app menus? | 17:17 |
| alexcockell | Can't remember it - but saw it in passing when people were complainign about scrollbars etc.. | 17:17 |
| shauno | non-global | 17:17 |
| popey | !info indicator-appmenu | 17:17 |
| BigRedS | oh, having the menu bar in the app window itself | 17:17 |
| lubotu3` | indicator-appmenu (source: indicator-appmenu): Indicator for application menus.. In component main, is optional. Version 0.2.1-0ubuntu2 (natty), package size 23 kB, installed size 136 kB | 17:17 |
| alexcockell | Menu bar on the app window as opposed to a Mac-llike menu | 17:17 |
| BigRedS | I don't think that confounds users that much, perhaps it does, though. It's not what most people complain about from what I gather | 17:18 |
| BigRedS | It irks me, though... | 17:18 |
| alexcockell | Scrollbars was the biggie.. | 17:18 |
| bigcalm | Humm? | 17:18 |
| bigcalm | Oh, not me | 17:18 |
| shauno | the global menus aren't awful. you drag the widget off the toolbar and everything goes back to normal | 17:18 |
| BigRedS | scollbars? | 17:18 |
| BigRedS | All the complaints I've seen are about the main menu | 17:19 |
| BigRedS | well, >90% | 17:19 |
| alexcockell | That as well.. | 17:19 |
| BigRedS | there's a guy here whose desktops keep magically realigning themselves which is hilarious | 17:19 |
| alexcockell | .. but a bastard to work with... | 17:19 |
| BigRedS | oh, probably. But I find it amusing when there's a sudden tirade of expletives behind me | 17:19 |
| MartijnVdS | it's hidden by default, that's broken already | 17:20 |
| BigRedS | I think he's back on gnome 2 now, though | 17:20 |
| BigRedS | got bored of spending several minutes finding the right xterm window or something | 17:20 |
| alexcockell | GIMP was also one that came up again and again - multiple subwindows - and with no minimise option... | 17:20 |
| alexcockell | Dunno whether, if a bar at the bottom wasn't wanted, borrowing somethign from maximus might have been an idea? | 17:21 |
| alexcockell | (running 10.04 UNR on this Ideapad) | 17:21 |
| BigRedS | are ideapads the thinkpads with rouded edges? | 17:21 |
| === OmNomDeBonBon is now known as syphilis | ||
| alexcockell | The netbook range. | 17:22 |
| BigRedS | ohhh | 17:22 |
| alexcockell | Which of course is another question - will Unity behave on a Atom+NVidia ION? | 17:22 |
| === syphilis is now known as RaycisCharles | ||
| BigRedS | all I can find of maximus is a gnome 2.x theme | 17:23 |
| shauno | personally, I'm convinced no-one actually uses unity. they sit on gnome2 and claim there's nothing wrong with unity. it's the only way any of this makes sense to me :) | 17:24 |
| BigRedS | I use unity on my home pc and my work pc | 17:24 |
| BigRedS | but I also don't use windows or do very much with the mouse | 17:24 |
| BigRedS | so, er, it feels almost exactly like gnome 2 | 17:25 |
| * TheOpenSourcerer hasn't moved to 11.04. Still on 10.10. My brief experiences with Unity were not very encouraging... | 17:25 | |
| BigRedS | don't use windows? Don't use menus | 17:25 |
| BigRedS | Lies. You installed 11.10 earlier! :) | 17:25 |
| alexcockell | Considering that most Wintel users coming in are more likely to be using Win Classic at work... | 17:25 |
| alexcockell | Just thought I'd bung that in... | 17:26 |
| BigRedS | If they're looking for windows classic, they should probably carry on using windows classic | 17:26 |
| BigRedS | if they're not, then it doesn't much matter that unity's not a lot like it | 17:26 |
| alexcockell | S'pose so... but if they're using Citrix off a home linux box to remote into work? | 17:26 |
| BigRedS | then... | 17:27 |
| BigRedS | I don't see the question there | 17:27 |
| JGJones | alexcockell, I've got Unity running off a rather old Celeron laptop with Intel graphics and about 756MB of RAM - it's pretty smooth - I would imagine an Atom with NVidia ION should be fine. | 17:35 |
| gord | ugh O is in such a bad place today, i can barely install anything | 18:58 |
| MartijnVdS | gord: it's been like this all week | 19:00 |
| gord | okay shell threw up a notification because i started playing a new track, obscuring the bottom line of text on my screen, thats it, experiment over!, i need that line of text for my terminal! | 19:02 |
| === denny- is now known as denny | ||
| brobostigon | new topgear, bbc1, 8pm, | 19:41 |
| MartijnVdS | yes | 19:43 |
| brobostigon | :) | 19:46 |
| * BigRedS wonders how long this series will be... | 19:50 | |
| Azelphur | wtf why did my servers load average just jump from 0.5 to 12 | 19:51 |
| Azelphur | 1.5MB/sec read and 200KB/sec write isn't bad for pretty much any modern drive right? | 19:56 |
| hamitron | what sort of drive? | 20:01 |
| penguin42 | Azelphur: Depends the IO pattern | 20:01 |
| penguin42 | Azelphur: A drive shoul;d be able to do ~125MB/s | 20:01 |
| penguin42 | Azelphur: But random accesses all over the drive can probably only do ~150 a second | 20:01 |
| penguin42 | and a 150 wkb accesses is less than 1MB/sec | 20:01 |
| Azelphur | 150 > 125? o.O | 20:01 |
| penguin42 | Azelphur: 150 accesses - not MB | 20:02 |
| Azelphur | oh right | 20:02 |
| Azelphur | my server just jumped to 14 average load and I have no idea why | 20:02 |
| Azelphur | I couldn't even ssh it, whatever it was doing | 20:02 |
| penguin42 | Azelphur: move over there, read 4kb, move over there, read 4kb, etc - the moving takes ages | 20:02 |
| Azelphur | yea | 20:02 |
| zleap | How do you spell the 11.04 code name thing is it natty narwhal | 20:23 |
| BigRedS | yeah | 20:23 |
| zleap | thanks | 20:25 |
| * zleap is trying to make my poster for 11.04 better, | 20:25 | |
| zleap | have put a direct link on there to the uk ubuntu loco team | 20:26 |
| marxjohnson | Can someone recommend me a decent UK-based VPS provider? | 20:26 |
| AlanBell | hi marxjohnson | 20:26 |
| AlanBell | bitfolk or bytemark | 20:26 |
| marxjohnson | hi AlanBell | 20:26 |
| marxjohnson | cool, those are the two I'm looking at :-) | 20:26 |
| zleap | hi AlanBell | 20:26 |
| marxjohnson | do you have a particular leaning? | 20:27 |
| AlanBell | to the left | 20:27 |
| marxjohnson | haha | 20:27 |
| AlanBell | not really, they both seem good | 20:28 |
| marxjohnson | cool, thanks | 20:28 |
| AlanBell | there is a console on both to reboot your vm, but really they just never go down | 20:28 |
| * AlanBell enjoyed being stunt double for marxjohnson | 20:29 | |
| * zleap is listening to latest podcast | 20:29 | |
| shauno | bitfolk have been fantastic, but I haven't used bytemark, so can't make a fair comparison between the two | 20:29 |
| * marxjohnson enjoyed being able to listen to UUPC and not know what was going to be said | 20:29 | |
| czajkowski | Aloha | 21:54 |
| popey | pip pip | 21:54 |
| bigcalm | Hey czajkowski | 21:54 |
| BigRedS | g'morning! | 21:54 |
| bigcalm | It appears to be rather warm | 21:55 |
| BigRedS | exceedingly so | 21:55 |
| * AlanBell suggests ice cream | 21:56 | |
| * BigRedS would very much like some | 21:56 | |
| BigRedS | middle of nowhere, sunday evening = everywhere closed :( | 21:56 |
| brobostigon | monty pythons,meaning of life, itv4 now. | 22:32 |
| emorris | hi, occasionally I want to start an addition X server to run a particular application. From a VT, i can do something like startx /foo/bar -- :2, but attempting this from my existing X session gives "X: user not authorized to run the X server, aborting.". Is there any way I can give myself permission to start an X server from an existing X session? | 22:38 |
| BigRedS | ooh, good call | 22:38 |
| zleap | how do i edit the ubuntu south west loco team wiki page | 22:39 |
| daubers | lo | 22:39 |
| zleap | i clicked login, logged in then didn't get taken back to the page to edit it | 22:40 |
| popey | zleap: wiki is probably still broken | 22:42 |
| zleap | AH | 22:43 |
| zleap | why what is wrong with it | 22:44 |
| popey | its broken | 22:44 |
| bigcalm | Just copied a 77mb .tgz from FirstServ to RackSpace at 7mb/s | 22:44 |
| * bigcalm wants that bandwidth at home | 22:44 | |
| popey | heh | 22:44 |
| shauno | emorris: there's an option for that somewhere. by default, it'll only let you start X from a local terminal. trying to remember where the option lives :/ | 22:45 |
| gord | i downloaded a file from the internet to my laptop over 3g at 400kb/s today | 22:48 |
| * gord wants that bandwidth at home | 22:48 | |
| emorris | shauno, I know you can do some xhost stuff, but I'd rather not | 22:49 |
| bigcalm | gord: heh | 22:49 |
| shauno | emorris: if it's what I think it is, man 5 Xwrapper.config and dpkg-reconfigure x11-common | 22:50 |
| shauno | most likely your existing config (/etc/X11/Xwrapper.config) has allowed = console, so you can only start it from a VT | 22:50 |
| emorris | shauno, bingo, thanks! | 22:52 |
| shauno | iirc it stops startx from working inside screen too | 22:52 |
| emorris | probably | 22:53 |
| shauno | xhost controls who can connect to a running server; xwrapper controls who can *start* a server. it's a much rarer fiddle | 22:54 |
| emorris | shauno, good to know, thanks | 23:04 |
| shauno | :) feels good when people actually want to know arcane stuff from 10+ years ago. it's all this modern stuff I'm useless with | 23:05 |
| === roger_ is now known as Zill | ||
| zleap | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/SouthWest | 23:10 |
| zleap | i have updated this a little and the wiki seems to be working now | 23:10 |
| brobostigon | good night everyone, sleep well. | 23:48 |
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