[00:01] <penguin42> Mat84: OK, so if it's not the X server that crashed it must be something else, can you pastebin the output of dmesg ?
[00:01] <Mat84> wow that's long
[00:02] <penguin42> Mat84: There's a command you can install called pastebinit
[00:04] <Mat84_> hm, not sure how I'd get it from my laptop to this one
[00:04] <penguin42> Mat84: Other than not starting graphics is the other laptop connected to the net?
[00:05] <Mat84_> I don't know
[00:05] <Mat84_> haven't used the internet from the console before
[00:05] <Mat84_> sorry :(
[00:05] <penguin42> Mat84_: No problem; issue the command sudo apt-get install pastebinit
[00:06] <Mat84_> "WARNING: The following packages cannot be authenticated!"
[00:07] <penguin42> It shouldn't do that
[00:07] <Mat84_> python-configjobj pastebinit
[00:07] <Mat84_> yeh, does that mean it's not online?
[00:07] <penguin42> no
[00:08] <penguin42> does it carry on and ask if you want to install it?
[00:08] <Mat84_> yweh
[00:08] <Mat84_> "install these packages without verification"
[00:10] <Mat84> sorry, got disconnected, back now
[00:12] <penguin42> Mat84: OK, so I think you can now do sudo dmesg | pastebinit
[00:15] <Mat84_> yeh, the laptop isn't online, it failed to resolved gb.archive.ubuntu.com
[00:15] <jpds> Cool.
[00:15] <penguin42> Mat84_: Bah ok, erm what's the last few lines of the dmesg say
[00:15] <Mat84_> it's all stuff about the wireless card
[00:16] <Mat84_> cycling through the channels
[00:17] <penguin42> Mat84_: hmm that's boring; hmm - well look, what you can try and do is move all the config files out of your user directory and see if that lets you loging
[00:17]  * penguin42 eats that last g
[00:17] <Mat84_> ok I'll give that a try
[00:18] <penguin42> Mat84_: So, logged in on the console try something like     mkdir   baddotfiles;   mv .g* .c* .X* .x* .m* baddotfiles
[00:18] <penguin42> Mat84_: Then logout of the console and see if you can login on X - I may have missed some
[00:18] <Mat84_> ok, and that will leave all my work stuff alone yeh?
[00:23] <Mat84_> is says "mv: cannon stat .m* : No such file or directory"
[00:23] <Mat84_> what folder do I want to be in when I run the command?
[00:26] <penguin42> your home directory; just leave the .m* off
[00:26] <Mat84_> is says it for all of them
[00:26] <penguin42> Mat84_: It'll only move the files into the 'old' directory, it should leave work files etc - but even if it doesn't it'll dump them in old
[00:27] <penguin42> odd - you really should have some dot files
[00:28] <Mat84_> this is from user@computer:~$
[00:28] <penguin42> yeh
[00:29] <Azelphur> haha, my brother was messing around with the 3 site trying to get it to send him the 3 skype android app, messing around changing the URL and stuff to trick it
[00:29] <Azelphur> and three just sent him a text message, "No."
[00:30] <penguin42> haha
[00:34] <hamitron> :D
[00:35] <Mat84_> there are some .files, but nothing starting with those letters...
[00:36] <Mat84_> could it be that be the problem?
[00:36] <Mat84_> ok, ignore my blatent disregard for English
[00:37] <Mat84_> *could that be the problem
[00:39] <GaryLittlemore> I'm running Ubuntu 11.04 x64 I've install program and then removed it but when I go into 'Application' the icon is still in there. But when I click it nothing happens. How do I remove the icon?
[00:41] <Mat84_> penguin - should I maybe try creating a new user and see if they can log in?
[00:44] <penguin42> Mat84_: Yes that's definitely a good idea
[00:45] <Mat84_> *crosses fingers*
[00:46] <Mat84_> ok, they've logged in fine...
[00:48] <penguin42> Mat84_: Cool; so one or more of the . files in your old users directory is probably broke
[00:48] <Mat84_> ok
[00:48] <Mat84_> so for this user there is a .config folder
[00:48] <Mat84_> but there was not for me
[00:52] <Mat84_> would it be a stupid idea just to copy that directory?
[00:59] <Mat84_> I just created the empty directory .config
[00:59] <Mat84_> and it now works!!
[00:59] <Mat84_> can log in
[00:59] <Mat84_> thanks so much for your help penguin
[01:02] <penguin42> Mat84_: I wonder where the heck your .config directory went?!
[01:02] <Mat84_> no idea
[01:02] <Mat84_> but it's a pretty big thing to have gone wrong!!
[01:02] <Mat84_> and why, if ubuntu didn't find one, it didn't create a default one?
[01:03] <Mat84_> all my application configurations have gone, but that's not a problem
[01:03] <Mat84_> maybe a few saved passwords in firefox I won't remember, but that's hardly the end of the world!
[01:03] <Mat84_> all my data is there which is the important thing
[01:04] <Mat84_> (and to be fair it was mostly backed up anyway)
[01:04] <penguin42> Mat84_: Actually youre mozilla stuff probably is still there
[01:05] <Mat84_> nope :(
[01:05] <Mat84_> even though that was in a different dictory
[01:06] <penguin42> Mat84_: Are you using encrypted home directory?
[01:06] <Mat84_> yeh
[01:06] <penguin42> ok, keep an eye out to see if anything else has disappeared - sounds like ecryptfs had a bad day
[01:07] <Mat84_> hm, so you think some of my files might be corrupted/missing?
[01:08] <penguin42> well, if .config disappeared who knows what else did
[01:08] <Mat84_> man I hope not
[01:09] <Mat84_> everything looks fine...
[01:10] <Mat84_> files I've checked all open ok, and anything important is backed up
[01:11] <Mat84_> I was thinking of installing gnome3, but I might leave it, had enough issues with ubuntu for this week!
[01:11] <jacobw> gnome3 has bigger controls than gnome2
[01:11] <penguin42> yeh, you should only install it if you know how to dig yourself out of the whole it might create
[01:12] <jacobw> other than that.. the differences are minimal.
[01:12] <Mat84_> and as you can tell penguin, I can't ;)
[01:13] <jacobw> ?
[01:14] <Mat84_> jacob, I am not a strong enough linux/ubuntu user to fix any problems that switching to gnome3 might result it
[01:14] <Mat84_> *result in
[01:15] <jacobw> i wouldn't bother with gnome3, unity is better
[01:15] <jacobw> apps>paradigms.
[01:16] <Mat84_> I'm not a big fan of unity
[01:16] <jacobw> it has its cons
[01:17]  * jacobw thinks 12.04 will be great :D
[01:17] <Mat84_> I'm just happy to not be using windows7, ubuntu broke last Sunday, and tonight was the first chance I've had to fix it
[01:18] <jacobw> what's up with it?
[01:18] <Mat84_> nothing now :D
[01:18] <Mat84_> thanks to penguin
[01:18] <jacobw> :D
[01:19] <Mat84_> but as it turned out, after a normal shutdown, couldn't log in, and the .config folder had gone!
[01:19] <jacobw> i've also had trouble with ecryptfs
[01:19] <Mat84_> nothing I have is super confidential, maybe I should turn it off?
[01:20] <jacobw> i'm sure its possible
[01:20] <jacobw> sorry..
[01:20] <jacobw> not sure
[01:20]  * jacobw is silly with negations
[01:20] <Mat84_> ah ok
[01:22] <Azelphur> http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/ATT-No-Longer-Wants-Kevin-Mitnick-As-A-Customer-104035
[01:22] <Azelphur> hahahaha
[01:23] <Mat84_> :)
[01:25] <Mat84_> hm, one thing that doesn't work, is evolution
[01:25] <jacobw> mitnick is awesome
[01:25] <Azelphur> indeed
[01:25] <jacobw> the guy who inspired me to learn about computers :|
[01:26] <jacobw> in a time lapse however.
[01:33] <^aDaM> Morning all :)
[09:26] <AlanBell> morning
[09:28] <MartijnVdS> \o
[09:31] <danfish> ahoy hoy saveloys!
[09:31] <danfish> gonna be a scorcher in the UK :)
[09:33] <MartijnVdS> danfish: what, with 15C and clouds?
[09:37] <danfish> MartijnVdS: heh - nah, already 24C in my garden :)
[09:38] <MartijnVdS> danfish: Sounds good :)
[09:38] <MartijnVdS> "Deep South"? ;)
[09:39] <danfish> just call me Bubba ;)
[09:40] <danfish> (apologies to any Americans from Louisiana for that gross generalisation)
[09:44] <danfish> local resident's association BBQ today - I'm wearing my Natty T-Shirt and have a few CD's in case asked :)
[09:52] <kvarley> Is there a gnome app which will let me shrink a dvd9 to dvd5?
[09:52] <MartijnVdS> kvarley: there's dvd95
[09:53] <MartijnVdS> kvarley: which should help :)
[09:53] <kvarley> MartijnVdS: Thanks :)
[09:54] <MartijnVdS> never tried it though
[10:01] <kvarley> conversion error with dvd95 lol
[10:21] <brobostigon> good morning everyone.
[10:29] <daubers> Morning
[10:29] <MartijnVdS> \o
[10:32] <brobostigon> morning daubers and MartijnVdS
[11:14] <alexcockell> HI all, I'm a little worried on the Firefox front with what I'v eread..
[11:15] <brobostigon> why?
[11:17] <alexcockell> At least I trust Ubuntu devs will shim it to not lose too much in usability...
[11:18] <alexcockell> I'm an LTS-LTS user - I am not looking forward to having to relearn or yank more and more per-user addons to regain functionality..
[11:19] <alexcockell> Major releases every 6 weeks?!
[11:19] <AlanBell> alexcockell: it is a browser. URL bar at the top, content below, click on the links to go other places. What could possibly go wrong?
[11:20] <alexcockell> Status bars?  Adblocker, Noscript version handling...
[11:20] <alexcockell> Citrix plugins...
[11:21] <alexcockell> Even the handling of site login info, cookies, histry, cache...
[11:21] <alexcockell> How the hell am i supposed to verify that plugin x isn't going to bork my browser?
[11:22] <AlanBell> hmm, dunno, how do you do that now?
[11:22] <AlanBell> the only plugin I use is firebug
[11:22] <alexcockell> I use Adblocker (ok, from the repos)
[11:22] <alexcockell> Noscript..
[11:23] <alexcockell> But I also have a lappie running XP that I use to remotely work..
[11:23] <alexcockell> And that's still on 3.6.18... as are the Lucid client..
[11:24] <AlanBell> I am missing the part where it is going to lose functionality or break cookies etc.
[11:24] <alexcockell> But it seems crazy that Mozilla haven't thought of the enterprise.
[11:24] <alexcockell> Yeah - but a tab-bar which scrolls?  Rather than being able to tell at a glance all the tabs you have open?
[11:24]  * daubers sorts out his workspaces
[11:25] <alexcockell> Apparently there are *all kinds* of usability own-goals..
[11:25] <AlanBell> yeah, it has a tab bar that scrolls when the tabs get unreadably small
[11:26] <AlanBell> there is a little dropdown to the right of it which gives you a menu list of all the tab names
[11:27] <alexcockell> The problem is - there is no easy way for a nontechie to revert that behaviour in Edit/Prefs (or Tools/options inm Win version)
[11:27] <AlanBell> why would a non-techie care/notice?
[11:27] <alexcockell> You'd be surprised.
[11:27] <alexcockell> I now do capacity planning - but I used to do support..
[11:28] <popey> people should be beaten until the stop getting annoyed by the littlest changes
[11:28] <popey> or something
[11:28] <alexcockell> As in "user blindly accepts update - functionality is apparently broken without warning"
[11:29] <AlanBell> user blindly accepts update, sees facebook still works, shrugs, continues pretending to work
[11:29] <alexcockell> Hmm - however most of the user community have learned through "monkey see monkey do" processes.
[11:29] <alexcockell> But reverting this behaviour apparently requires a developer-level change.
[11:29] <alexcockell> Rather than a check-box on the Appearance tab.
[11:30] <AlanBell> well it is just a UI improvement for people who have more than 14 tabs open
[11:30] <AlanBell> 20 tabs on my other screen before it scrolls
[11:30] <alexcockell> Yeah... but the methods for chaning/reverting requires the modification of a stylesheet...
[11:31] <directhex> mozilla don't really care about long-term support models. and their enterprise support generally is pooey
[11:31] <alexcockell> Which, if a user got it wrong, could bork the browser (effectively)
[11:31] <directhex> still no group policy stuff on windows
[11:31] <alexcockell> Yup - they're just handing it back to MS on a platter..
[11:31] <AlanBell> you could write a plugin to change the tab behaviour
[11:32] <alexcockell> Yeah - but another 3rd-party app.. another potential security issue.. another app to maintain...
[11:32] <AlanBell> in general I think there should be more ldap/policy stuff in open source software, that is a fair point
[11:33] <Myrtti> its nice to see that the world still rotates and the problems stay so small especially on IRC...
[11:33] <daubers> problem is.... ldap is both hard and sucks
[11:33] <AlanBell> yes, ldap should suck less
[11:34] <alexcockell> Agreed...
[11:34] <AlanBell> I never entirely got my head round it, everything seems to want a totally different and conflicting schema
[11:35] <popey> friend of my /2
[11:35] <popey> bah!
[11:41] <daubers> Gah
[11:41] <daubers> Wifes laptop stops responding to the network, she pulls the router power, I lose a half completed 4.3GB download
[11:43] <MartijnVdS> wget -c :
[11:43] <daubers> server doesn't like you doing that
[11:43] <daubers> I think it upsets the sources load balancer
[11:43] <MartijnVdS> Get a better server ;)
[11:43] <daubers> MartijnVdS:  Not mine! Apples
[11:44] <popey> wifey tells me one of her friends (who is a windows-hater) wants to get a 'netbook' for her daughter. but doesnt want windows on it.
[11:44] <popey> dunno what apps she'll need but this is 'for school work' (hah)
[11:45] <alexcockell> So she might need a Windows VM wayway?
[11:45] <alexcockell> *anyway?
[11:45] <popey> I wouldn't put a Windows VM on a netbook
[11:46] <alexcockell> Yeah - point taken.
[11:46] <popey> it's also two OSs to manage rather than one
[11:49] <AlanBell> http://chrome.angrybirds.com/ works on firefox too \o/
[11:51] <AlanBell> smoother in chromium
[11:56] <popey> heh, just opened firefox on this computer, last time I used it was december last year
[12:00] <daubers> Ooooh new phones week next week \o/
[12:00] <daubers> Need to ask O2 for my PAK code
[12:01] <popey> ITYM PUK code
[12:01] <daubers> thats the welly
[12:01] <daubers> Getting a Nexus S from work as my new work phone and a galaxy s 2 on my personal contract \o/
[12:03] <AlanBell> popey: sometimes things open in firefox, sometimes in chromium, mostly I don't know which I am using
[12:05] <AlanBell> so for messing about with compiz plugins I decided I needed two computers, so I can ssh into the one I will be breaking
[12:06] <AlanBell> should I install oneirirc on it I wonder
[12:07] <popey> tempted to switch to SSD on all my computers now
[12:07] <popey> just lack of storage space that's annoying
[12:08] <MartijnVdS> popey: you could use a NAS for that (like my Synology.. ♥)
[12:08] <popey> yeah
[12:08] <popey> i have a server with lots of space
[12:08] <popey> but right now its..
[12:08] <popey> Directory inode 2848245 has an unallocated block #3452.  Allocate? yes
[12:08] <popey> doing a fsck...
[12:08] <popey> ☹
[12:09] <MartijnVdS> oops?
[12:09] <popey> i shrank the volume
[12:09] <popey> now fsck is reporting lots of those
[12:28] <BigRedS> shrinking volumes is essentially playing russian roulette with your data :/
[12:30] <daubers> popey: I have a NAS in the office thats stuffed with SSDs \o/
[12:30] <daubers> Do want one for my mac mini and one for my laptop though :(
[12:31] <BigRedS> AlanBell: smartphone ssh client?
[12:31] <AlanBell> irssi connectbot
[12:32] <BigRedS> yeah
[12:32] <BigRedS> ah, I missed the beginning of that conversation :)
[12:45] <penguin42> hmm last nights xorg-edgers seems to be very unhappy for me
[12:54] <MartijnVdS> what happened?
[12:57] <penguin42> black screen on kde, but some stuff running; when I did a kwin --replace form a console I got streams of errors 'this is a driver bug' out of it - unfortunately didn't remember the rest of the message - pre-breakfast bug
[12:58] <penguin42> I'm a bit surprised actually to ind xorg-edgers contains a rebuilt kdebase-workspace
[12:59] <penguin42> only noticed it while doing a purge
[13:06] <penguin42> hmm breakfast is a good idea
[14:11] <AlanBell> anyone use unetbootin? it just comes up with Boot Error for me
[14:12] <BigRedS> I've used it several times without that error
[14:13] <dwatkins> I've used unetbootin many times without problem, both using a manually downloaded ISO and the ones it downloads for me.
[14:13] <BigRedS> In fact, once I've got over it's weird insistence upon my having already mounted the volume, I don't think I've ever had a problem
[14:13] <daubers_> AlanBell: IIRC I get the boot error with the server CD
[14:13] <AlanBell> ah, think it is because the usb was formatted to fat32
[14:13] <BigRedS> thinking about it, it's been a while since I did a ubuntu with it
[14:14] <BigRedS> Ah, or anything other than ext
[14:14]  * AlanBell reformats to ext3 and tries again
[14:14] <popey> uh
[14:14] <popey> it _should_ be fat32
[14:14] <popey> or vfat or whatever you call it
[14:14] <dwatkins> I was about to say what popey said.
[14:15] <AlanBell> http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/linux-general-1/unetbootin-always-boot-error-upon-reboot-704042/
[14:19] <daubers_> Mac Minutes are rubbish
[14:30] <gord> for all the things i dislike in gnome shell, there are a few nice things - its nice that when you open activities all your windows are there - never really used expose ever
[14:30] <AlanBell> well it doesn't seem to work with ext3 either, but different error
[14:31] <BigRedS> gord: I _love_ the empathy integration in gnome 3
[14:31] <AlanBell> with fat32 I get Boot Error, with ext3 it says missing operating system, then boots from hdd
[14:31] <penguin42> AlanBell: I'm confused - I thought unetbootin did everything needed to the drive; I don't think you need to format anything
[14:31] <BigRedS> or gnome shell or whatever it's called
[14:31] <penguin42> AlanBell: You are telling unetbootin to use /dev/sdx not /dev/sdx1 ?
[14:31] <AlanBell> penguin42: I didn't either
[14:31] <gord> the main thing that bugs me about shell is how damn slow it is
[14:31] <AlanBell> penguin42: I did tell it to use /dev/sdb
[14:31] <BigRedS> I really dislike how it removes my workspaces just 'cause there's nothing on them
[14:32] <BigRedS> I've no idea who thought that was a sane idea
[14:32] <penguin42> gord: Javascript - what else do you need to say?
[14:32] <gord> i mean, it took us six months of effort to get away from mutter, but it was worth it. you just can't stall the rendering pipeline in the window manager like clutter does
[14:39] <gord> i can't figure out how to get it to launch a second instance of some application without it going to a new workspace, but i assume i'm just using my computer wrong
[14:40] <BigRedS> there's a lot of htat in gnome3. "No, that's not what you want to do, so I did this for you"
[14:50]  * AlanBell gives up on unetbootin and tries startup disk creator
[15:07] <AlanBell> boot error
[15:16] <AlanBell> yay, fixored
[15:16] <AlanBell> that is worth writing up somewhere
[15:17] <AlanBell> the bios was set to treat small USB devices as removeable disks and large ones as fixed disks
[15:17] <AlanBell> tell it to stop that auto detection and treat it as a fixed disk and it boots
[15:18] <brobostigon> interesting,
[15:20] <AlanBell> now to plug in speakers for an eyes-free install
[15:21] <mfraz74> is this the new netbook?
[15:21] <AlanBell> no, it is an atom 230 desktop
[15:25]  * AlanBell debugs sound issue and plugs speakers into power for enhanced audio performance
[15:28] <daubers_> Hmmm, new version of xcode integrates git into the ide
[15:29] <daubers_> Also, my chair needs oiling
[15:29] <BigRedS> I think mine needs new seals
[15:29] <BigRedS> I'm about 2" lower than I was this morning :/
[16:14] <daubers_> people complain about eclipse being memory hungry, at least it doesn't freeze the whole desktop like xcode does!!!
[16:16] <hamitron> lets just..... complain
[16:16] <hamitron> ;)
[16:16] <shauno> rabble rabble
[16:17] <hamitron> after watching that last Grand Prix, I don't think my brain is active enough to think of stuff to complain about
[16:17] <shauno> I've been finding xcode relaly quite strange.  I'm used to vim.  I'm not used to it constantly whining about how sloppy I am
[16:18] <hamitron> hehe
[16:18] <BigRedS> shauno: and "Syntax error: unexpected :w" all over the place?
[16:18] <hamitron> "but I wanted it like that damn it!"
[16:18] <hamitron> :D
[16:19] <shauno> hitting cmd-s I'm used to.  having it constantly inject little threats about uninitialised vars is funky
[16:19] <hamitron> how do you remove a new line in vim?
[16:20] <BigRedS> backspace?
[16:20] <hamitron> I can never get that working
[16:20] <BigRedS> or s/\r//
[16:20] <BigRedS> or \n
[16:21] <BigRedS> yeah, \n
[16:21] <BigRedS> s/\n//
[16:22] <hamitron> hmmm
[16:22] <hamitron> it is removing the new line in vi on debian now
[16:22] <hamitron> I swear I've had problems with it before
[16:23] <BigRedS> well, it depends what the newline is
[16:23] <BigRedS> that wont match a dos newline
[16:23] <AlanBell> yay, oneiric installed and working
[16:23] <BigRedS> whoo!
[16:23] <AlanBell>  just wish unity would play nicer with other compiz plugins
[16:26] <BigRedS> oh yeah, any unity-on-a-laptop users fancy confirming whether bug 685338 is in unity? I can't see it not being so...
[16:26] <lubotu3`> Launchpad bug 685338 in gnome-power-manager (Ubuntu) "Cannot ignore pressing of hibernate button" [Low,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/685338
[16:26] <MartijnVdS> AlanBell: I wonder if "a compiz plugin" is the right place for it
[16:27] <directhex> i repeat, this time when not knocked offline: argh
[16:29] <AlanBell> MartijnVdS: I don't object to it being one, but it has some silly dependencies and settings which really shouldn't matter to unity
[16:30] <AlanBell> like it depends on largedesktop, which is provided by wall, and cube, and someone chose wall as the one it would insist on
[16:31] <AlanBell> try to turn on cube and it gets all in a fluster and you end up with no desktop no nothing, so have to ssh in and do unity --reset
[16:31] <AlanBell> which breaks all the other settings you changed
[16:31] <MartijnVdS> ah yes, things like that
[16:36] <DanielRM> Hello all.
[16:38] <Azelphur> havn't seen you around in a while DanielRM :P
[16:38] <brobostigon> DanielRM: good afternoon, long time no speak.
[16:42] <DanielRM> I've been feeling the IRC itch recently. :P
[16:43] <DanielRM> Plus I have a decent phone now so I can use IRC on the go.
[16:43] <DanielRM> How are you all?
[16:44] <brobostigon> DanielRM: not bad, interesting things have happened. and you?   also we have been looking after ##politics-uk.
[16:45] <DanielRM> I'm fine thanks.
[16:45] <brobostigon> :)
[16:46] <DanielRM> Who thought of the current topic there incidentally? I owe them a drink, it made me laugh. :)
[16:46] <brobostigon> DanielRM: i think that was AlanBell.
[16:46] <penguin42> what is it?
[16:46] <DanielRM> 'Current topic: AV Yes, No, or a quantum entanglement of Maybe?'
[16:47] <DanielRM> AlanBell: should I ever meet you then I owe you a drink, be sure to remind me. :P
[16:47] <brobostigon> :)
[16:51] <alexcockell> Hmm - how to really cane an ADSL connection.. outside lots of Linux maint work..
[16:51] <alexcockell> ... lots of video or audio streams from BBC servers...
[16:53] <alexcockell> Oh - was meaning to ask - when 12.04 is being approached... are there plans to offer definitive hardware compatibility info based on actual systems?
[16:53] <alexcockell> Considering Mark Shuttleworth's intention to go after consumers...
[16:54] <MartijnVdS> people aren't really thinking on that level about 12.04  yet
[16:54] <alexcockell> Not so much "will this or that component behave, but more akin to the netbook maint list...
[16:54] <alexcockell> As in - "Will the upgrade take on my Lenovo Ideapad S12"
[16:55] <MartijnVdS> alexcockell: there's the Ubunty Friendly program
[16:55] <alexcockell> But offering lookups based on complete systems.
[16:55] <MartijnVdS> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuFriendly
[16:56] <alexcockell> Yeah - OK - I bypassed that by buying my machines preinstalled from Linux Emporium - but I am a little concerned with all the issues around Unity and how much of a relearn it might be..
[16:56] <MartijnVdS> it's not that hard :)
[16:56] <MartijnVdS> and as long as the machine is not older than ~2-3 years and has hardware acceleration, you're fine wrt. 3D support
[16:57] <alexcockell> Going from Windows to Hardy to Lucid on my Thinkpad R61 was only a little incremental... but muscle memory was usable.
[16:58] <MartijnVdS> Unity is the same, as long as you turn off the global menu bits
[16:58] <BigRedS> All the keyboard shortcuts remain, as far as I can tell
[16:59] <alexcockell> Yeah - but maybe that ought to be sensed - so if someone is upgrading from Lucid it switches it off by default and gives you the option of turning them *on*?
[16:59] <BigRedS> but the global menu is seen as a feture
[16:59] <BigRedS> *feature
[17:00] <BigRedS> by that logic, if you're upgrading to 11.04 it should notice and leave gnome 2 as the default DE
[17:00] <alexcockell> Maybe if you're a Mac user coming across - but not coming in from Windows.
[17:01] <BigRedS> Surely a feature is a feature, irrespective of what other things you might've used?
[17:01] <alexcockell> Yeah - ease people in - cos they might be concerned if they;'re upgrading and maybe the WLAN card craps out.. or the display plays up.. they don't really want to be mucking about with a new UI as well.
[17:01] <alexcockell> Question - have you wirked in 2nd line support?
[17:01] <BigRedS> but then you'd never change anything by default
[17:01] <alexcockell> *worked
[17:01] <BigRedS> and then you'd be running Debian
[17:02] <BigRedS> (which, incidentally, is why I'm running Debian)
[17:02] <alexcockell> Hmm - yeah -- I can kind of see where you're coming from...
[17:02]  * brobostigon is on debian right now, with gnome3/gnome-shell, and it is pretty much perfect.
[17:02] <alexcockell> But I'm thinking of people tracking LTS-LTS on a machine they've bought preinstalled..
[17:02] <BigRedS> still, at some point they'll get given unity
[17:02] <MartijnVdS> they bought it 2 years ago! time for a new machine! :P
[17:03] <DanielRM> Argh, apparently IRC doesn't like staying connected.
[17:03] <BigRedS> and were it believed by canonical/ubuntu that unity was confusing enough that you don't want to risk using it, they'd not ship it at all
[17:03] <BigRedS> the problem is that canonical disagree with several vocal users :)
[17:03] <brobostigon> MartijnVdS: yep, netbook-remix.
[17:03] <MartijnVdS> BigRedS: and common sense
[17:03] <BigRedS> MartijnVdS: have you been watching those MS ads? :)
[17:03] <alexcockell> Netbook-remix makes sense... on a netbook.
[17:03] <MartijnVdS> BigRedS: no, and I don't work for a hardware company either ;)
[17:03] <BigRedS> haha
[17:04] <MartijnVdS> I just like the shiny -- waiting for Intel to release Ivy Bridge i7s so I can upgrade :)
[17:04] <alexcockell> Unity probably makes sense on a display up to about 11 or 12in...
[17:04] <BigRedS> ms's current ad is basically "This woman's running an old PC and that makes her an idiot. You wouldn't want to be an idiot, would you?"
[17:04] <popey> i use it on a 23" screen alexcockell
[17:04] <popey> 1920x1080
[17:04] <BigRedS> Unity works as fine for me on this biggy screen as gnome2 or kde or whatever did
[17:04] <MartijnVdS> Ooh look, popey has more inches :P
[17:04] <DanielRM> Apparently I just got 'outed' as a member of LulzSec. 0_0
[17:05] <BigRedS> 23" or something, it's vast
[17:05] <alexcockell> OK..
[17:05] <MartijnVdS> BigRedS: "Staggeringly vast" </Coupling>
[17:05] <popey> wow, coupling.. blast from the past
[17:06] <BigRedS> hah, yeah, that took a moment or two to register
[17:06] <MartijnVdS> popey: Moffat has always been good :)
[17:07] <alexcockell> I would, however, like to suggest that maybe easing people into the more jarring parts of the UI would be a good idea for the next LTS..
[17:07] <BigRedS> easing people in? So supporting not just two UIs but several degrees between them?
[17:07] <popey> MartijnVdS: was that his work!?
[17:07] <DanielRM> What's Unity like for day-to-day use now?
[17:07] <alexcockell> Maybe have it detect that it's being upgraded rather than clean-installed...
[17:07] <MartijnVdS> popey: yes :)
[17:08] <BigRedS> DanielRM: I find it absolutely fine. But I don't use menus and that's where most of the dislike appears to come from
[17:08] <popey> blimey, news
[17:08] <BigRedS> alexcockell: still, that's another setup, so more support & more bugs
[17:08] <popey> DanielRM: in my experience the vast majority of hatred for unity comes from three camps:-
[17:08] <MartijnVdS> popey: (also, "Steve" and "Susan" vs "Steven" and "Sue" irl)
[17:08] <popey> a) people who have used it and don't like it
[17:08] <popey> b) people who don't use it and don't like it
[17:08] <popey> c) people who will never use it and don't like it
[17:09] <popey> b) and c) are bizarrely quite vocal
[17:09] <BigRedS> Those could all be the same person :)
[17:09] <MartijnVdS> popey: because they want to keep the option to not use it
[17:09] <MartijnVdS> popey: and that option is becoming harder to find by the day
[17:09] <popey> that option has never not been there
[17:09] <popey> pffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffft
[17:09] <BigRedS> it's as easy as it always has been
[17:09] <MartijnVdS> popey: no but it's been cleverly hidden :)
[17:09] <popey> ^ professional opinion
[17:09] <popey> hidden on a fedora cd
[17:09] <DanielRM> popey: I think that's always the same really.
[17:09] <DanielRM> The most vocal ones are those least affected.
[17:10] <popey> the rest of us who just use it seem not to be very vocal
[17:10] <BigRedS> well, I'm quite vocal about my dislike of gnome 3 despite not using it currently
[17:10] <alexcockell> All I'm suggesting is that group B could be people who are non-technical users using 10.04 as a tool and are worried that they'll come to update in about June next year then get thrown completely.
[17:10] <alexcockell> The ones who will trustingly accept updates.  End-users.
[17:11] <BigRedS> yeah, and rather than that you'd like to upgrade them to something that nobody else is using - some halfway-house between gnome2 and unity?
[17:11] <BigRedS> _every_ ubuntu upgrade (IME) breaks at least one default
[17:11] <BigRedS> this is just a bigger one than usual
[17:11] <popey> heheh
[17:11] <alexcockell> but a hell of a lot more visible this time..
[17:12] <alexcockell> It's basically going from something akin to Windoes Classic to Mac without warning, from what I understand
[17:12] <BigRedS> so at least it's obvious rather than the browser just not having any bookmarks in it any more
[17:12] <BigRedS> it's nowhere near as big as that
[17:12] <popey> "without warning"
[17:12] <popey> lolwut
[17:12] <alexcockell> Brwoser no longer has bookmarks?  WTF made Mozilla do that?
[17:12] <popey> I think you're _somewhat_ over dramatising for comic effect here alexcockell
[17:12] <BigRedS> no, when the default changed
[17:12] <MartijnVdS> alexcockell: "people don't use them"
[17:12] <popey> I never use bookmarks, I don't care
[17:13]  * MartijnVdS uses the bookmark bar all the time
[17:13] <BigRedS> when on upgrade sensible-browser went from FF to chrome (or whatever) people probably logged in, opened the browser and found no bookmarks
[17:13] <MartijnVdS> as a "quick links" bar
[17:13] <alexcockell> Maybe.  But I also remember where a "minor" change has meant hell on a Monday morning..
[17:13] <popey> so set you infrastructre up better
[17:13] <popey> dont let users update their own machines
[17:13] <alexcockell> Yeah - but I'm not talking corporate...
[17:13] <jane_> #tog /join
[17:13] <popey>  /join #tog
[17:14] <popey> i think you mean
[17:14] <MartijnVdS> jane_: other way around :)
[17:14] <jane_> thanks I am a bit stupid
[17:14] <popey> alexcockell: oh, sorry I thought your main point was corporate. my bad
[17:14] <popey> no more than MartijnVdS
[17:14] <popey> :D
[17:14] <MartijnVdS> popey: :(
[17:14] <alexcockell> I'm referring to some who, say, bought their machine from Linux Emporium...
[17:14]  * popey hugs MartijnVdS 
[17:15] <MartijnVdS> popey: I'm Dutch, not stupid :P
[17:15] <popey> haha
[17:15] <popey> I like that
[17:15] <popey> get that as a tattoo
[17:15] <alexcockell> Come June - they see the Upgrade Distro option - they click on it.. "WHAT?"
[17:15] <popey> alexcockell: LTS users only see that in LTS
[17:15] <popey> so they wont see it for 2 yearas
[17:15] <popey> *years
[17:15] <alexcockell> 1 year.
[17:15] <popey> 10.04 to 12.04 is 2 years
[17:16] <alexcockell> 2012 is next LTS, right?
[17:16] <BigRedS> alexcockell: but your intended solution isn't ot just not upgrade, it's to invent yet another WM and upgrade them to that?
[17:16] <popey> ok, 1 from now, yeah
[17:16] <alexcockell> Not quite.
[17:16] <alexcockell> Per-app menus are still available by removing a package?  Something?
[17:17] <BigRedS> per-app menus?
[17:17] <alexcockell> Can't remember it - but saw it in passing when people were complainign about scrollbars etc..
[17:17] <shauno> non-global
[17:17] <popey> !info indicator-appmenu
[17:17] <BigRedS> oh, having the menu bar in the app window itself
[17:17] <lubotu3`> indicator-appmenu (source: indicator-appmenu): Indicator for application menus.. In component main, is optional. Version 0.2.1-0ubuntu2 (natty), package size 23 kB, installed size 136 kB
[17:17] <alexcockell> Menu bar on the app window as opposed to a Mac-llike menu
[17:18] <BigRedS> I don't think that confounds users that much, perhaps it does, though. It's not what most people complain about from what I gather
[17:18] <BigRedS> It irks me, though...
[17:18] <alexcockell> Scrollbars was the biggie..
[17:18] <bigcalm> Humm?
[17:18] <bigcalm> Oh, not me
[17:18] <shauno> the global menus aren't awful.  you drag the widget off the toolbar and everything goes back to normal
[17:18] <BigRedS> scollbars?
[17:19] <BigRedS> All the complaints I've seen are about the main menu
[17:19] <BigRedS> well, >90%
[17:19] <alexcockell> That as well..
[17:19] <BigRedS> there's a guy here whose desktops keep magically realigning themselves which is hilarious
[17:19] <alexcockell> .. but a bastard to work with...
[17:19] <BigRedS> oh, probably. But I find it amusing when there's a sudden tirade of expletives behind me
[17:20] <MartijnVdS> it's hidden by default, that's broken already
[17:20] <BigRedS> I think he's back on gnome 2 now, though
[17:20] <BigRedS> got bored of spending several minutes finding the right xterm window or something
[17:20] <alexcockell> GIMP was also one that came up again and again - multiple subwindows - and with no minimise option...
[17:21] <alexcockell> Dunno whether, if a bar at the bottom wasn't wanted, borrowing somethign from maximus might have been an idea?
[17:21] <alexcockell> (running 10.04 UNR on this Ideapad)
[17:21] <BigRedS> are ideapads the thinkpads with rouded edges?
[17:22] <alexcockell> The netbook range.
[17:22] <BigRedS> ohhh
[17:22] <alexcockell> Which of course is another question - will Unity behave on a Atom+NVidia ION?
[17:23] <BigRedS> all I can find of maximus is a gnome 2.x theme
[17:24] <shauno> personally, I'm convinced no-one actually uses unity.  they sit on gnome2 and claim there's nothing wrong with unity.  it's the only way any of this makes sense to me :)
[17:24] <BigRedS> I use unity on my home pc and my work pc
[17:24] <BigRedS> but I also don't use windows or do very much with the mouse
[17:25] <BigRedS> so, er, it feels almost exactly like gnome 2
[17:25]  * TheOpenSourcerer hasn't moved to 11.04. Still on 10.10. My brief experiences with Unity were not very encouraging...
[17:25] <BigRedS> don't use windows? Don't use menus
[17:25] <BigRedS> Lies. You installed 11.10 earlier! :)
[17:25] <alexcockell> Considering that most Wintel users coming in are more likely to be using Win Classic at work...
[17:26] <alexcockell> Just thought I'd bung that in...
[17:26] <BigRedS> If they're looking for windows classic, they should probably carry on using windows classic
[17:26] <BigRedS> if they're not, then it doesn't much matter that unity's not a lot like it
[17:26] <alexcockell> S'pose so... but if they're using Citrix off a home linux box to remote into work?
[17:27] <BigRedS> then...
[17:27] <BigRedS> I don't see the question there
[17:35] <JGJones> alexcockell, I've got Unity running off a rather old Celeron laptop with Intel graphics and about 756MB of RAM - it's pretty smooth - I would imagine an Atom with NVidia ION should be fine.
[18:58] <gord> ugh O is in such a  bad place today, i can barely install anything
[19:00] <MartijnVdS> gord: it's been like this all week
[19:02] <gord> okay shell threw up a notification because i started playing a new track, obscuring the bottom line of text on my screen, thats it, experiment over!, i need that line of text for my terminal!
[19:41] <brobostigon> new topgear, bbc1, 8pm,
[19:43] <MartijnVdS> yes
[19:46] <brobostigon> :)
[19:50]  * BigRedS wonders how long this series will be...
[19:51] <Azelphur> wtf why did my servers load average just jump from 0.5 to 12
[19:56] <Azelphur> 1.5MB/sec read and 200KB/sec write isn't bad for pretty much any modern drive right?
[20:01] <hamitron> what sort of drive?
[20:01] <penguin42> Azelphur: Depends the IO pattern
[20:01] <penguin42> Azelphur: A drive shoul;d be able to do ~125MB/s
[20:01] <penguin42> Azelphur: But random accesses all over the drive can probably only do ~150 a second
[20:01] <penguin42> and a 150 wkb accesses is less than 1MB/sec
[20:01] <Azelphur> 150 > 125? o.O
[20:02] <penguin42> Azelphur: 150 accesses - not MB
[20:02] <Azelphur> oh right
[20:02] <Azelphur> my server just jumped to 14 average load and I have no idea why
[20:02] <Azelphur> I couldn't even ssh it, whatever it was doing
[20:02] <penguin42> Azelphur: move over there, read 4kb, move over there, read 4kb, etc - the moving takes ages
[20:02] <Azelphur> yea
[20:23] <zleap> How do you spell the 11.04 code name thing is it natty narwhal
[20:23] <BigRedS> yeah
[20:25] <zleap> thanks
[20:25]  * zleap is trying to make my poster for 11.04 better, 
[20:26] <zleap> have put a direct link on there to the uk ubuntu loco team
[20:26] <marxjohnson> Can someone recommend me a decent UK-based VPS provider?
[20:26] <AlanBell> hi marxjohnson
[20:26] <AlanBell> bitfolk or bytemark
[20:26] <marxjohnson> hi AlanBell
[20:26] <marxjohnson> cool, those are the two I'm looking at :-)
[20:26] <zleap> hi AlanBell
[20:27] <marxjohnson> do you have a particular leaning?
[20:27] <AlanBell> to the left
[20:27] <marxjohnson> haha
[20:28] <AlanBell> not really, they both seem good
[20:28] <marxjohnson> cool, thanks
[20:28] <AlanBell> there is a console on both to reboot your vm, but really they just never go down
[20:29]  * AlanBell enjoyed being stunt double for marxjohnson
[20:29]  * zleap is listening to latest podcast
[20:29] <shauno> bitfolk have been fantastic, but I haven't used bytemark, so can't make a fair comparison between the two
[20:29]  * marxjohnson enjoyed being able to listen to UUPC and not know what was going to be said
[21:54] <czajkowski> Aloha
[21:54] <popey> pip pip
[21:54] <bigcalm> Hey czajkowski
[21:54] <BigRedS> g'morning!
[21:55] <bigcalm> It appears to be rather warm
[21:55] <BigRedS> exceedingly so
[21:56]  * AlanBell suggests ice cream
[21:56]  * BigRedS would very much like some
[21:56] <BigRedS> middle of nowhere, sunday evening = everywhere closed :(
[22:32] <brobostigon> monty pythons,meaning of life, itv4 now.
[22:38] <emorris> hi, occasionally I want to start an addition X server to run a particular application. From a VT, i can do something like startx /foo/bar -- :2, but attempting this from my existing X session gives "X: user not authorized to run the X server, aborting.". Is there any way I can give myself permission to start an X server from an existing X session?
[22:38] <BigRedS> ooh, good call
[22:39] <zleap> how do i edit the ubuntu south west loco team wiki page
[22:39] <daubers> lo
[22:40] <zleap> i clicked login,  logged in then didn't get taken back to the page to edit it
[22:42] <popey> zleap: wiki is probably still broken
[22:43] <zleap> AH
[22:44] <zleap> why what is wrong with it
[22:44] <popey> its broken
[22:44] <bigcalm> Just copied a 77mb .tgz from FirstServ to RackSpace at 7mb/s
[22:44]  * bigcalm wants that bandwidth at home
[22:44] <popey> heh
[22:45] <shauno> emorris: there's an option for that somewhere.  by default, it'll only let you start X from a local terminal.  trying to remember where the option lives :/
[22:48] <gord> i downloaded a file from the internet to my laptop over 3g at 400kb/s today
[22:48]  * gord wants that bandwidth at home
[22:49] <emorris> shauno, I know you can do some xhost stuff, but I'd rather not
[22:49] <bigcalm> gord: heh
[22:50] <shauno> emorris: if it's what I think it is, man 5 Xwrapper.config and dpkg-reconfigure x11-common
[22:50] <shauno> most likely your existing config (/etc/X11/Xwrapper.config) has allowed = console, so you can only start it from a VT
[22:52] <emorris> shauno, bingo, thanks!
[22:52] <shauno> iirc it stops startx from working inside screen too
[22:53] <emorris> probably
[22:54] <shauno> xhost controls who can connect to a running server; xwrapper controls who can *start* a server.  it's a much rarer fiddle
[23:04] <emorris> shauno, good to know, thanks
[23:05] <shauno> :)  feels good when people actually want to know arcane stuff from 10+ years ago.  it's all this modern stuff I'm useless with
[23:10] <zleap> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/SouthWest
[23:10] <zleap> i have updated this a little and the wiki seems to be working now
[23:48] <brobostigon> good night everyone, sleep well.