| timClicks | ibeardslee, hrm that's what I thought | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| timClicks | was considering this http://www.bondandbond.co.nz/shop/computers/portable/netbooks/toshiba-nb550-00h-brown-netbook/prod110253.html | 00:00 |
| ibeardslee | the HP510x are pretty good .. give them a boost to the 2GB though | 00:00 |
| ibeardslee | Toshiba won't sell laptops with Windows | 00:00 |
| mwhudson | at least it's not an atom | 00:01 |
| * ibeardslee elimintates them based on that | 00:01 | |
| mwhudson | ibeardslee: i think you have a sense inversion there? | 00:01 |
| chilts | ibeardslee: /with/without/ ? | 00:01 |
| ibeardslee | Radeon graphics .. not much luck with that and Ubuntu | 00:02 |
| ibeardslee | err yes | 00:02 |
| ibeardslee | Toshiba won't sell laptops without Windows | 00:02 |
| lifeless | ibeardslee: http://www.ubuntu.com/certification/make/Toshiba | 00:07 |
| ibeardslee | timClicks: Ascent will sell the 510x without windows, with 2GB, a SSD .. and 3G | 00:07 |
| timClicks | hrm | 00:08 |
| timClicks | good to know | 00:08 |
| timClicks | thanks | 00:08 |
| lifeless | ibeardslee: not saying I like toshiba, but they will sell Ubuntu machines ;) | 00:08 |
| ibeardslee | lifeless: I suppose I should clarify .. Toshiba (in NZ) told me a while back that they would not sell laptops without Windows | 00:08 |
| ibeardslee | just because it is certified to work with something, doesn't mean they'll sell it locally with it | 00:09 |
| lifeless | ibeardslee: well that sucks | 00:10 |
| ibeardslee | I would be using Toshiba if they would sell laptops without Windows | 00:10 |
| lifeless | ibeardslee: it might be worth asking about those specific models - we don't certify stuff like this without the OEM wanting us to :) | 00:12 |
| * ibeardslee is undecided on the 'political' implications of that | 00:13 | |
| ibeardslee | on one hand it has been an effort to get HP to the point they will sell HP laptops and desktops without Windows licences | 00:13 |
| ibeardslee | aiming to get to the point where they actually have them in stock locally | 00:14 |
| lifeless | ibeardslee: do you do the 'gimme my windows refund' dance? | 00:15 |
| ibeardslee | if those "legacy os free" machines is split between two brands .. there'll be less inclination to stock | 00:15 |
| ibeardslee | lifeless: no, I do the I want this without paying for the windows licence dance | 00:15 |
| lifeless | yeah, I meant if/when that fails | 00:15 |
| ibeardslee | and we are at that point with HP in NZ | 00:15 |
| lifeless | cool | 00:16 |
| ajmitch | what HP models can be sold without windows at the moment? | 00:16 |
| ibeardslee | they say the business and corporate models | 00:16 |
| ibeardslee | not the 'home user' models | 00:16 |
| ajmitch | that generally makes sense | 00:17 |
| ibeardslee | actually the business and corporate models that come with Windows 7 Professional | 00:17 |
| ibeardslee | .. although the HP 510x seems to be an exception there | 00:17 |
| ibeardslee | the ascent website says "applicable to most, but not all commercial models" | 00:18 |
| ibeardslee | hmm just rereading and just in case it needs clarification ... the "we are at that point with HP in NZ" is about "without paying for the windows licence dance" | 00:22 |
| ibeardslee | sadly not the "in stock" .. they are generally still 2-3weeks leadtime | 00:22 |
| ajmitch | I wonder how many people have requested a model without windows though | 00:23 |
| ajmitch | probably not enough to keep any in stock | 00:23 |
| ibeardslee | no .. but I think that is jsut a bit more word of mouth and advertising away | 00:25 |
| ibeardslee | and getting geek FOSS fanatics to buy HP rather than other machines with the legacy os | 00:25 |
| hads | I'm a little torn about laptops, I can't seem to bring myself to buy one without a trackpoint. | 00:33 |
| ibeardslee | the elitebooks seem to have them .. but they are the pricier models | 00:36 |
| * ajmitch still wants a laptop with an SSD | 00:37 | |
| ajmitch | of course I'd have to justify spending that much money, which is hard :) | 00:37 |
| hads | ibeardslee: Cool, didn't realise HP did any. I'll have to look at them next time I'm in the market. | 00:44 |
| hads | ajmitch: You wouldn't regret it. | 00:45 |
| ajmitch | hads: I wouldn't, my bank account may | 00:45 |
| ajmitch | the laptop I'm using is less than 2 years old | 00:45 |
| hads | I bought my latest thinkpad with a HDD and replaced it with SSD myself because you never know what they are going to give you from factory. | 00:46 |
| ajmitch | I have too much on the hard drive to do that at the moment | 00:47 |
| hads | Just about to say that... probably be different if you needed storage but I didn't so can get the smallest for not much $ | 00:48 |
| ajmitch | ~/.Virtualbox alone is 75GB | 00:48 |
| hads | Ouch | 00:48 |
| ajmitch | what I should do if I want to get rid of windows altogether is remove one of the 2 hard drives & replace it with an SSD | 00:49 |
| hads | Mine is 3.3G | 00:50 |
| hads | (VirtualBox) | 00:50 |
| ajmitch | right, I tend to have a bit more in there, like multiple ubuntu releases, debian, windows 7 | 00:50 |
| ibeardslee | I run kvm on workstations, the netbook just isn't up to virtual machines | 00:50 |
| hads | Windows 7 would take up half of that :) | 00:51 |
| ajmitch | only 17GB :) | 00:51 |
| ajmitch | the largest is debian unstable, I do a bit of package building there | 00:52 |
| mwhudson | hads: new thinkpads come with intel ssds | 00:52 |
| * mwhudson is obscenely happy with his x220, but it was the opposite of cheap | 00:53 | |
| ajmitch | eye-wateringly expensive? | 00:53 |
| hads | mwhudson: Cool. Not sure what they came with when I bought mine - T400 | 00:53 |
| mwhudson | i guess no, just expensive :) | 00:53 |
| mwhudson | hads: yeah, apparently they used to not be so great | 00:53 |
| hads | I wanted to use something I had read reviews on but Intel would be fine. | 00:54 |
| mwhudson | exactly, i don't think they're top of the line drives now, but they're close enough to avoid the faff of the diy approach | 00:54 |
| lifeless | ajmitch: you can drop an SSD into your existing laptop | 00:55 |
| ajmitch | lifeless: right, at the moment I just have too much space wasted | 00:56 |
| mwhudson | i guess with usb3 and maybe thunderbolt using an external drive won't imply massive pain for too much longer | 00:56 |
| lifeless | mwhudson: thunderbolt ? | 00:57 |
| mwhudson | on and pci-e i guess | 00:57 |
| mwhudson | lifeless: new name for light peak | 00:57 |
| lifeless | oh shiny | 00:57 |
| lifeless | hmm macbook pros have it | 00:57 |
| mwhudson | lifeless: yeah, dunno if anything else is going to support them | 00:57 |
| lifeless | well, everyone that can will I guess | 00:58 |
| lifeless | is it finalised as a standard yet ? | 00:58 |
| mwhudson | there seems to be a bit of a hdmi/displayport/thunderbolt/usb3 mess going on at the moment | 00:58 |
| mwhudson | (not all mutually overlapping of course) | 00:59 |
| mwhudson | does anyone actually use esata? | 00:59 |
| ibeardslee | have you seen the disks for the macbook air? | 00:59 |
| lifeless | mwhudson: I've got an esata caddy around | 01:00 |
| hads | There's a Seagate hybrid drive around I think | 01:00 |
| hads | http://www.anandtech.com/show/3734/seagates-momentus-xt-review-finally-a-good-hybrid-hdd | 01:01 |
| lifeless | http://www.intel.com/technology/io/thunderbolt/index.htm | 01:01 |
| lifeless | mwhudson: 'Compatible with existing DisplayPort devices' | 01:02 |
| mwhudson | lifeless: yeah | 01:02 |
| ajmitch | hads: that could be quite fast for some workloads | 01:02 |
| lifeless | greaky | 01:02 |
| lifeless | *freaky* - it exports pcei | 01:03 |
| lifeless | bah | 01:03 |
| lifeless | pcie | 01:03 |
| hads | ajmitch: I can get that for $150 ex for you | 01:03 |
| ajmitch | for what size drive? | 01:04 |
| hads | 500GB | 01:04 |
| ajmitch | quite tempting | 01:04 |
| lifeless | hads: you work at a computer reseller? | 01:04 |
| hads | lifeless: I run an online store so have access to most of the distributors in NZ. | 01:05 |
| lifeless | hads: nice! | 01:05 |
| hads | Happy to get things for anyone here | 01:05 |
| lifeless | hads: whats your url? | 01:05 |
| ajmitch | hads: still considering whether I should get that alix board, though I have a bit less need for it now | 01:07 |
| ajmitch | lifeless: nicegear.co.nz | 01:07 |
| lifeless | cool, thanks | 01:10 |
| * mwhudson suddenly thinks about routers | 01:12 | |
| * ajmitch ended up getting a draytek vigor dsl modem, it seems to be working fairly well | 01:12 | |
| hads | Sorry, making lunch for the little fella. | 01:13 |
| mwhudson | yeah, i don't need a modem though, am on telstraclear | 01:13 |
| mwhudson | in fact i have a netgear modem i need to trademe | 01:13 |
| ajmitch | UP Speed:997161 Down Speed:20118133 SNR Margin:13 Loop Att.:8 | 01:14 |
| ajmitch | the fun of living near the exchange | 01:14 |
| ajmitch | & I like having a dsl modem that's accessible over the LAN with telnet | 01:14 |
| ibeardslee | so the most infuriating thing about installing Windows (after installing windows) is that the window control buttons are over at the top right | 01:23 |
| mwhudson | it's funny not using windows for so long | 01:32 |
| mwhudson | when you read things like "this laptop boots fast, it boots win7 in just 45 seconds" | 01:33 |
| ibeardslee | I blame an encrypted /home for my netbook being slow to get going | 01:34 |
| ajmitch | 45 seconds still seems a lot faster than my laptop booting, I'm sure | 01:51 |
| hads | I have encrypted home on tihs laptop, boot time is around 10 seconds :) | 01:55 |
| ajmitch | I also tend to suspend my laptop rather than shut it down | 01:56 |
| ojwb | restoring from suspend doesn't seem to have improved as much as startup from cold sadly | 02:03 |
| ojwb | perhaps I have too much stuff running - I've noticed it seems better if I take the time to close down excess stuff first | 02:04 |
| lifeless | what I really want is a DSL card for my mini-itx, so I can piss off the cisco adsl modem and use something with grunt | 02:14 |
| lifeless | its presumably possible, I just haven't dug into it - that and needing to run a pppoa stack | 02:14 |
| lifeless | ojwb: restoring from hibernate you mean ? | 02:15 |
| ojwb | lifeless: oh, yes | 02:15 |
| * mwhudson has horrific flashbacks to tryiing to get internet to work in mooloolaba | 02:15 | |
| lifeless | ojwb: so yeah, hibernate is much harder than clean boot | 02:15 |
| * ojwb has a feeling it just returns with pretty much an "all swapped out" state | 02:15 | |
| ojwb | and then stuff fights to get swapped back in | 02:16 |
| ajmitch | lifeless: the modem I bought has pppoa->pppoe bridging, so you can run a pppoe client on something with more grunt | 02:16 |
| ojwb | it certainly seems a lot slower than just loading the used memory amount of data should | 02:16 |
| ajmitch | ojwb: resuming from suspend on my laptop can be horribly slow at times | 02:17 |
| ajmitch | I don't even try & resume from hibernate | 02:17 |
| ibeardslee | my problem with suspend is that sometimes the ethernet doesn't come back | 02:18 |
| ajmitch | unfortunately hardware support on linux can still be a bit spotty | 02:18 |
| ibeardslee | although I need to do some tests again .. I don't think the Atom does hyperthreading | 02:19 |
| ibeardslee | disabled that in the BIOS and it has behaved a bit better (I think) | 02:19 |
| * ojwb doesn't really like hibernation to be russian roulette | 02:20 | |
| ojwb | if I was prepared to loose all the state, I'd just shut down | 02:20 |
| lifeless | ojwb: thats precisely whats happening: | 02:20 |
| ojwb | lifeless: yeah, my guess is it was the obvious way to implement it | 02:21 |
| lifeless | ojwb: all clean pages are discarded, all dirty pages are swapped out, and normally unswappable stuff is special cased a little | 02:21 |
| ojwb | lifeless: do you know if anyone's tried just getting paged-in stuff saved out as a linear(ish) chunk, then reloading that upon resume? | 02:22 |
| lifeless | so the swsus2 project worked on performance | 02:23 |
| ojwb | last time I looked, that didn't seem to be making rapid progress | 02:23 |
| lifeless | they compress pages, try to minimise the during-hibernate data structures etc | 02:23 |
| lifeless | even if you ignore hardware support issues | 02:23 |
| lifeless | hibernate is always going to be more work than shutdown + boot | 02:24 |
| lifeless | (because it discards your current state) | 02:24 |
| ojwb | http://lwn.net/Articles/113555/ - so they were struggling to merge it in dec 2004... | 02:24 |
| ojwb | yeah, I realise there's a lot more data to load | 02:25 |
| * ibeardslee waits patiently for coreboot | 02:28 | |
| hads | Interesting; http://lkubuntu.wordpress.com/2011/06/28/pam-face-authentication/ | 03:32 |
| * ojwb wonders if it can tell the difference between you and a photo of you | 03:43 | |
| ajmitch | like fingerprint scanners on laptops can be easily misled? | 03:45 |
| ojwb | by cutting off someone's finger? | 03:49 |
| ajmitch | no, with gummy bears :) | 03:50 |
| ajmitch | I think it was because there were an awful lot of fingerprints on the laptop case, so getting one for the scanner wasn't very hard | 03:51 |
| ojwb | oh yes, I remember reading that now | 03:54 |
| chilts | heh, that's pretty funny | 03:57 |
| chilts | fingerprints everywhere | 03:57 |
| ojwb | I guess the answer is to use your toe on the fingerprint scanner | 03:58 |
| ojwb | unless you walk over your laptop barefoot a lot | 03:58 |
| ibeardslee | you could .. .. nah let's not go there | 04:02 |
| ojwb | ibeardslee: I cleaned it up from my original idea... | 04:05 |
| ajmitch | probably a good thing | 04:05 |
| ojwb | perhaps by "smile to log on" it means it checks for the motion from not smiling to smiling | 04:05 |
| ojwb | rather than just recognising you smiling | 04:05 |
| ojwb | sadly their wiki redirects to a broken URL | 04:06 |
| ajmitch | that'd be more secure than a static image | 04:06 |
| ojwb | and the contact link just seems to load forever | 04:06 |
| ojwb | i rather lost enthusiasm for trying to report broken websites some time ago anyway | 04:06 |
| chilts | ojwb: not sure I ever did, unless it's a friend of mine I usually just don't bother | 04:15 |
| snail | co-worker learn sh scripting choose 'PATH' as a variable name for the working directory | 04:38 |
| ajmitch | that doesn't quite make sense | 04:39 |
| ojwb | I'd suggest using lower case for your own variables in shell scripts | 04:40 |
| lifeless | hads: how long does it take something to freight from akl to chch ? | 11:50 |
| lifeless | hads: [if you happen to know, if you don't thats fine] | 11:50 |
| ibeardslee | morning | 20:35 |
| ajmitch | morning | 20:55 |
| chilts | good morning to each and every one of you | 21:51 |
| ajmitch | a rather bright, sunny morning at the moment | 21:52 |
| ajmitch | sun just risinhg over the hill & shining on my laptop screen | 21:52 |
| chilts | how annoying! :) | 21:53 |
| chilts | it's alright here, apart from the wind and cold ... and dark clouds to the north | 21:53 |
| chilts | otherwise just beeeeaaaaudiful | 21:54 |
| ajmitch | no clouds in sight down here, or wind at the moment | 21:54 |
| chilts | and the heavens open | 22:21 |
| ajmitch | move to dunedin | 22:22 |
| ibeardslee | for some reason I have in my mind that I am probably heading down to Dunedin at some stage this year .. damned if I can remember why | 22:24 |
| ajmitch | it's not for sports or something related? | 22:25 |
| ibeardslee | oh .. hang on | 22:25 |
| ibeardslee | a Tairabunkai seminar | 22:26 |
| ibeardslee | 12/13 Nov | 22:26 |
| ajmitch | vaguely sports-related, I guess :) | 22:26 |
| ajmitch | where's that going to be? | 22:26 |
| ibeardslee | Probably at the Goju Ryu dojo | 22:27 |
| ibeardslee | 225 Main South Road, Green Island | 22:27 |
| ajmitch | ok, not so close to where I am | 22:28 |
| ajmitch | if I remember, then we may be able to meet up at some point that weekend | 22:28 |
| ibeardslee | I'll probably arrange to try and head down on the Friday to catch up with people down that way | 22:29 |
| ibeardslee | but that's Nov so still a few months away .. although will probably coming barrelling towards me as the year disappears | 22:30 |
| ajmitch | I'll probably be up in wellington for kiwi pycon in august | 22:30 |
| ajmitch | along with a few other people from here | 22:30 |
| mwhudson | morning | 22:38 |
| Atamira | morning | 23:17 |
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