[00:00] ibeardslee, hrm that's what I thought [00:00] was considering this http://www.bondandbond.co.nz/shop/computers/portable/netbooks/toshiba-nb550-00h-brown-netbook/prod110253.html [00:00] the HP510x are pretty good .. give them a boost to the 2GB though [00:00] Toshiba won't sell laptops with Windows [00:01] at least it's not an atom [00:01] * ibeardslee elimintates them based on that [00:01] ibeardslee: i think you have a sense inversion there? [00:01] ibeardslee: /with/without/ ? [00:02] Radeon graphics .. not much luck with that and Ubuntu [00:02] err yes [00:02] Toshiba won't sell laptops without Windows [00:07] ibeardslee: http://www.ubuntu.com/certification/make/Toshiba [00:07] timClicks: Ascent will sell the 510x without windows, with 2GB, a SSD .. and 3G [00:08] hrm [00:08] good to know [00:08] thanks [00:08] ibeardslee: not saying I like toshiba, but they will sell Ubuntu machines ;) [00:08] lifeless: I suppose I should clarify .. Toshiba (in NZ) told me a while back that they would not sell laptops without Windows [00:09] just because it is certified to work with something, doesn't mean they'll sell it locally with it [00:10] ibeardslee: well that sucks [00:10] I would be using Toshiba if they would sell laptops without Windows [00:12] ibeardslee: it might be worth asking about those specific models - we don't certify stuff like this without the OEM wanting us to :) [00:13] * ibeardslee is undecided on the 'political' implications of that [00:13] on one hand it has been an effort to get HP to the point they will sell HP laptops and desktops without Windows licences [00:14] aiming to get to the point where they actually have them in stock locally [00:15] ibeardslee: do you do the 'gimme my windows refund' dance? [00:15] if those "legacy os free" machines is split between two brands .. there'll be less inclination to stock [00:15] lifeless: no, I do the I want this without paying for the windows licence dance [00:15] yeah, I meant if/when that fails [00:15] and we are at that point with HP in NZ [00:16] cool [00:16] what HP models can be sold without windows at the moment? [00:16] they say the business and corporate models [00:16] not the 'home user' models [00:17] that generally makes sense [00:17] actually the business and corporate models that come with Windows 7 Professional [00:17] .. although the HP 510x seems to be an exception there [00:18] the ascent website says "applicable to most, but not all commercial models" [00:22] hmm just rereading and just in case it needs clarification ... the "we are at that point with HP in NZ" is about "without paying for the windows licence dance" [00:22] sadly not the "in stock" .. they are generally still 2-3weeks leadtime [00:23] I wonder how many people have requested a model without windows though [00:23] probably not enough to keep any in stock [00:25] no .. but I think that is jsut a bit more word of mouth and advertising away [00:25] and getting geek FOSS fanatics to buy HP rather than other machines with the legacy os [00:33] I'm a little torn about laptops, I can't seem to bring myself to buy one without a trackpoint. [00:36] the elitebooks seem to have them .. but they are the pricier models [00:37] * ajmitch still wants a laptop with an SSD [00:37] of course I'd have to justify spending that much money, which is hard :) [00:44] ibeardslee: Cool, didn't realise HP did any. I'll have to look at them next time I'm in the market. [00:45] ajmitch: You wouldn't regret it. [00:45] hads: I wouldn't, my bank account may [00:45] the laptop I'm using is less than 2 years old [00:46] I bought my latest thinkpad with a HDD and replaced it with SSD myself because you never know what they are going to give you from factory. [00:47] I have too much on the hard drive to do that at the moment [00:48] Just about to say that... probably be different if you needed storage but I didn't so can get the smallest for not much $ [00:48] ~/.Virtualbox alone is 75GB [00:48] Ouch [00:49] what I should do if I want to get rid of windows altogether is remove one of the 2 hard drives & replace it with an SSD [00:50] Mine is 3.3G [00:50] (VirtualBox) [00:50] right, I tend to have a bit more in there, like multiple ubuntu releases, debian, windows 7 [00:50] I run kvm on workstations, the netbook just isn't up to virtual machines [00:51] Windows 7 would take up half of that :) [00:51] only 17GB :) [00:52] the largest is debian unstable, I do a bit of package building there [00:52] hads: new thinkpads come with intel ssds [00:53] * mwhudson is obscenely happy with his x220, but it was the opposite of cheap [00:53] eye-wateringly expensive? [00:53] mwhudson: Cool. Not sure what they came with when I bought mine - T400 [00:53] i guess no, just expensive :) [00:53] hads: yeah, apparently they used to not be so great [00:54] I wanted to use something I had read reviews on but Intel would be fine. [00:54] exactly, i don't think they're top of the line drives now, but they're close enough to avoid the faff of the diy approach [00:55] ajmitch: you can drop an SSD into your existing laptop [00:56] lifeless: right, at the moment I just have too much space wasted [00:56] i guess with usb3 and maybe thunderbolt using an external drive won't imply massive pain for too much longer [00:57] mwhudson: thunderbolt ? [00:57] on and pci-e i guess [00:57] lifeless: new name for light peak [00:57] oh shiny [00:57] hmm macbook pros have it [00:57] lifeless: yeah, dunno if anything else is going to support them [00:58] well, everyone that can will I guess [00:58] is it finalised as a standard yet ? [00:58] there seems to be a bit of a hdmi/displayport/thunderbolt/usb3 mess going on at the moment [00:59] (not all mutually overlapping of course) [00:59] does anyone actually use esata? [00:59] have you seen the disks for the macbook air? [01:00] mwhudson: I've got an esata caddy around [01:00] There's a Seagate hybrid drive around I think [01:01] http://www.anandtech.com/show/3734/seagates-momentus-xt-review-finally-a-good-hybrid-hdd [01:01] http://www.intel.com/technology/io/thunderbolt/index.htm [01:02] mwhudson: 'Compatible with existing DisplayPort devices' [01:02] lifeless: yeah [01:02] hads: that could be quite fast for some workloads [01:02] greaky [01:03] *freaky* - it exports pcei [01:03] bah [01:03] pcie [01:03] ajmitch: I can get that for $150 ex for you [01:04] for what size drive? [01:04] 500GB [01:04] quite tempting [01:04] hads: you work at a computer reseller? [01:05] lifeless: I run an online store so have access to most of the distributors in NZ. [01:05] hads: nice! [01:05] Happy to get things for anyone here [01:05] hads: whats your url? [01:07] hads: still considering whether I should get that alix board, though I have a bit less need for it now [01:07] lifeless: nicegear.co.nz [01:10] cool, thanks [01:12] * mwhudson suddenly thinks about routers [01:12] * ajmitch ended up getting a draytek vigor dsl modem, it seems to be working fairly well [01:13] Sorry, making lunch for the little fella. [01:13] yeah, i don't need a modem though, am on telstraclear [01:13] in fact i have a netgear modem i need to trademe [01:14] UP Speed:997161 Down Speed:20118133 SNR Margin:13 Loop Att.:8 [01:14] the fun of living near the exchange [01:14] & I like having a dsl modem that's accessible over the LAN with telnet [01:23] so the most infuriating thing about installing Windows (after installing windows) is that the window control buttons are over at the top right [01:32] it's funny not using windows for so long [01:33] when you read things like "this laptop boots fast, it boots win7 in just 45 seconds" [01:34] I blame an encrypted /home for my netbook being slow to get going [01:51] 45 seconds still seems a lot faster than my laptop booting, I'm sure [01:55] I have encrypted home on tihs laptop, boot time is around 10 seconds :) [01:56] I also tend to suspend my laptop rather than shut it down [02:03] restoring from suspend doesn't seem to have improved as much as startup from cold sadly [02:04] perhaps I have too much stuff running - I've noticed it seems better if I take the time to close down excess stuff first [02:14] what I really want is a DSL card for my mini-itx, so I can piss off the cisco adsl modem and use something with grunt [02:14] its presumably possible, I just haven't dug into it - that and needing to run a pppoa stack [02:15] ojwb: restoring from hibernate you mean ? [02:15] lifeless: oh, yes [02:15] * mwhudson has horrific flashbacks to tryiing to get internet to work in mooloolaba [02:15] ojwb: so yeah, hibernate is much harder than clean boot [02:15] * ojwb has a feeling it just returns with pretty much an "all swapped out" state [02:16] and then stuff fights to get swapped back in [02:16] lifeless: the modem I bought has pppoa->pppoe bridging, so you can run a pppoe client on something with more grunt [02:16] it certainly seems a lot slower than just loading the used memory amount of data should [02:17] ojwb: resuming from suspend on my laptop can be horribly slow at times [02:17] I don't even try & resume from hibernate [02:18] my problem with suspend is that sometimes the ethernet doesn't come back [02:18] unfortunately hardware support on linux can still be a bit spotty [02:19] although I need to do some tests again .. I don't think the Atom does hyperthreading [02:19] disabled that in the BIOS and it has behaved a bit better (I think) [02:20] * ojwb doesn't really like hibernation to be russian roulette [02:20] if I was prepared to loose all the state, I'd just shut down [02:20] ojwb: thats precisely whats happening: [02:21] lifeless: yeah, my guess is it was the obvious way to implement it [02:21] ojwb: all clean pages are discarded, all dirty pages are swapped out, and normally unswappable stuff is special cased a little [02:22] lifeless: do you know if anyone's tried just getting paged-in stuff saved out as a linear(ish) chunk, then reloading that upon resume? [02:23] so the swsus2 project worked on performance [02:23] last time I looked, that didn't seem to be making rapid progress [02:23] they compress pages, try to minimise the during-hibernate data structures etc [02:23] even if you ignore hardware support issues [02:24] hibernate is always going to be more work than shutdown + boot [02:24] (because it discards your current state) [02:24] http://lwn.net/Articles/113555/ - so they were struggling to merge it in dec 2004... [02:25] yeah, I realise there's a lot more data to load [02:28] * ibeardslee waits patiently for coreboot [03:32] Interesting; http://lkubuntu.wordpress.com/2011/06/28/pam-face-authentication/ [03:43] * ojwb wonders if it can tell the difference between you and a photo of you [03:45] like fingerprint scanners on laptops can be easily misled? [03:49] by cutting off someone's finger? [03:50] no, with gummy bears :) [03:51] I think it was because there were an awful lot of fingerprints on the laptop case, so getting one for the scanner wasn't very hard [03:54] oh yes, I remember reading that now [03:57] heh, that's pretty funny [03:57] fingerprints everywhere [03:58] I guess the answer is to use your toe on the fingerprint scanner [03:58] unless you walk over your laptop barefoot a lot [04:02] you could .. .. nah let's not go there [04:05] ibeardslee: I cleaned it up from my original idea... [04:05] probably a good thing [04:05] perhaps by "smile to log on" it means it checks for the motion from not smiling to smiling [04:05] rather than just recognising you smiling [04:06] sadly their wiki redirects to a broken URL [04:06] that'd be more secure than a static image [04:06] and the contact link just seems to load forever [04:06] i rather lost enthusiasm for trying to report broken websites some time ago anyway [04:15] ojwb: not sure I ever did, unless it's a friend of mine I usually just don't bother [04:38] co-worker learn sh scripting choose 'PATH' as a variable name for the working directory [04:39] that doesn't quite make sense [04:40] I'd suggest using lower case for your own variables in shell scripts [11:50] hads: how long does it take something to freight from akl to chch ? [11:50] hads: [if you happen to know, if you don't thats fine] [20:35] morning [20:55] morning [21:51] good morning to each and every one of you [21:52] a rather bright, sunny morning at the moment [21:52] sun just risinhg over the hill & shining on my laptop screen [21:53] how annoying! :) [21:53] it's alright here, apart from the wind and cold ... and dark clouds to the north [21:54] otherwise just beeeeaaaaudiful [21:54] no clouds in sight down here, or wind at the moment [22:21] and the heavens open [22:22] move to dunedin [22:24] for some reason I have in my mind that I am probably heading down to Dunedin at some stage this year .. damned if I can remember why [22:25] it's not for sports or something related? [22:25] oh .. hang on [22:26] a Tairabunkai seminar [22:26] 12/13 Nov [22:26] vaguely sports-related, I guess :) [22:26] where's that going to be? [22:27] Probably at the Goju Ryu dojo [22:27] 225 Main South Road, Green Island [22:28] ok, not so close to where I am [22:28] if I remember, then we may be able to meet up at some point that weekend [22:29] I'll probably arrange to try and head down on the Friday to catch up with people down that way [22:30] but that's Nov so still a few months away .. although will probably coming barrelling towards me as the year disappears [22:30] I'll probably be up in wellington for kiwi pycon in august [22:30] along with a few other people from here [22:38] morning [23:17] morning