[00:00] <timClicks> ibeardslee, hrm that's what I thought
[00:00] <timClicks> was considering this http://www.bondandbond.co.nz/shop/computers/portable/netbooks/toshiba-nb550-00h-brown-netbook/prod110253.html
[00:00] <ibeardslee> the HP510x are pretty good .. give them a boost to the 2GB though
[00:00] <ibeardslee> Toshiba won't sell laptops with Windows
[00:01] <mwhudson> at least it's not an atom
[00:01]  * ibeardslee elimintates them based on that
[00:01] <mwhudson> ibeardslee: i think you have a sense inversion there?
[00:01] <chilts> ibeardslee: /with/without/ ?
[00:02] <ibeardslee> Radeon graphics .. not much luck with that and Ubuntu
[00:02] <ibeardslee> err yes
[00:02] <ibeardslee> Toshiba won't sell laptops without Windows
[00:07] <lifeless> ibeardslee: http://www.ubuntu.com/certification/make/Toshiba
[00:07] <ibeardslee> timClicks: Ascent will sell the 510x without windows, with 2GB, a SSD .. and 3G
[00:08] <timClicks> hrm
[00:08] <timClicks> good to know
[00:08] <timClicks> thanks
[00:08] <lifeless> ibeardslee: not saying I like toshiba, but they will sell Ubuntu machines ;)
[00:08] <ibeardslee> lifeless: I suppose I should clarify .. Toshiba (in NZ) told me a while back that they would not sell laptops without Windows
[00:09] <ibeardslee> just because it is certified to work with something, doesn't mean they'll sell it locally with it
[00:10] <lifeless> ibeardslee: well that sucks
[00:10] <ibeardslee> I would be using Toshiba if they would sell laptops without Windows
[00:12] <lifeless> ibeardslee: it might be worth asking about those specific models - we don't certify stuff like this without the OEM wanting us to :)
[00:13]  * ibeardslee is undecided on the 'political' implications of that
[00:13] <ibeardslee> on one hand it has been an effort to get HP to the point they will sell HP laptops and desktops without Windows licences
[00:14] <ibeardslee> aiming to get to the point where they actually have them in stock locally
[00:15] <lifeless> ibeardslee: do you do the 'gimme my windows refund' dance?
[00:15] <ibeardslee> if those "legacy os free" machines is split between two brands .. there'll be less inclination to stock
[00:15] <ibeardslee> lifeless: no, I do the I want this without paying for the windows licence dance
[00:15] <lifeless> yeah, I meant if/when that fails
[00:15] <ibeardslee> and we are at that point with HP in NZ
[00:16] <lifeless> cool
[00:16] <ajmitch> what HP models can be sold without windows at the moment?
[00:16] <ibeardslee> they say the business and corporate models
[00:16] <ibeardslee> not the 'home user' models
[00:17] <ajmitch> that generally makes sense
[00:17] <ibeardslee> actually the business and corporate models that come with Windows 7 Professional
[00:17] <ibeardslee>  .. although the HP 510x seems to be an exception there
[00:18] <ibeardslee> the ascent website says "applicable to most, but not all commercial models"
[00:22] <ibeardslee> hmm just rereading and just in case it needs clarification ... the "we are at that point with HP in NZ" is about "without paying for the windows licence dance"
[00:22] <ibeardslee> sadly not the "in stock" .. they are generally still 2-3weeks leadtime
[00:23] <ajmitch> I wonder how many people have requested a model without windows though
[00:23] <ajmitch> probably not enough to keep any in stock
[00:25] <ibeardslee> no .. but I think that is jsut a bit more word of mouth and advertising away
[00:25] <ibeardslee> and getting geek FOSS fanatics to buy HP rather than other machines with the legacy os
[00:33] <hads> I'm a little torn about laptops, I can't seem to bring myself to buy one without a trackpoint.
[00:36] <ibeardslee> the elitebooks seem to have them .. but they are the pricier models
[00:37]  * ajmitch still wants a laptop with an SSD
[00:37] <ajmitch> of course I'd have to justify spending that much money, which is hard :)
[00:44] <hads> ibeardslee: Cool, didn't realise HP did any. I'll have to look at them next time I'm in the market.
[00:45] <hads> ajmitch: You wouldn't regret it.
[00:45] <ajmitch> hads: I wouldn't, my bank account may
[00:45] <ajmitch> the laptop I'm using is less than 2 years old
[00:46] <hads> I bought my latest thinkpad with a HDD and replaced it with SSD myself because you never know what they are going to give you from factory.
[00:47] <ajmitch> I have too much on the hard drive to do that at the moment
[00:48] <hads> Just about to say that... probably be different if you needed storage but I didn't so can get the smallest for not much $
[00:48] <ajmitch> ~/.Virtualbox alone is 75GB
[00:48] <hads> Ouch
[00:49] <ajmitch> what I should do if I want to get rid of windows altogether is remove one of the 2 hard drives & replace it with an SSD
[00:50] <hads> Mine is 3.3G
[00:50] <hads> (VirtualBox)
[00:50] <ajmitch> right, I tend to have a bit more in there, like multiple ubuntu releases, debian, windows 7
[00:50] <ibeardslee> I run kvm on workstations, the netbook just isn't up to virtual machines
[00:51] <hads> Windows 7 would take up half of that :)
[00:51] <ajmitch> only 17GB :)
[00:52] <ajmitch> the largest is debian unstable, I do a bit of package building there
[00:52] <mwhudson> hads: new thinkpads come with intel ssds
[00:53]  * mwhudson is obscenely happy with his x220, but it was the opposite of cheap
[00:53] <ajmitch> eye-wateringly expensive?
[00:53] <hads> mwhudson: Cool. Not sure what they came with when I bought mine - T400
[00:53] <mwhudson> i guess no, just expensive :)
[00:53] <mwhudson> hads: yeah, apparently they used to not be so great
[00:54] <hads> I wanted to use something I had read reviews on but Intel would be fine.
[00:54] <mwhudson> exactly, i don't think they're top of the line drives now, but they're close enough to avoid the faff of the diy approach
[00:55] <lifeless> ajmitch: you can drop an SSD into your existing laptop
[00:56] <ajmitch> lifeless: right, at the moment I just have too much space wasted
[00:56] <mwhudson> i guess with usb3 and maybe thunderbolt using an external drive won't imply massive pain for too much longer
[00:57] <lifeless> mwhudson: thunderbolt ?
[00:57] <mwhudson> on and pci-e i guess
[00:57] <mwhudson> lifeless: new name for light peak
[00:57] <lifeless> oh shiny
[00:57] <lifeless> hmm macbook pros have it
[00:57] <mwhudson> lifeless: yeah, dunno if anything else is going to support them
[00:58] <lifeless> well, everyone that can will I guess
[00:58] <lifeless> is it finalised as a standard yet ?
[00:58] <mwhudson> there seems to be a bit of a hdmi/displayport/thunderbolt/usb3 mess going on at the moment
[00:59] <mwhudson> (not all mutually overlapping of course)
[00:59] <mwhudson> does anyone actually use esata?
[00:59] <ibeardslee> have you seen the disks for the macbook air?
[01:00] <lifeless> mwhudson: I've got an esata caddy around
[01:00] <hads> There's a Seagate hybrid drive around I think
[01:01] <hads> http://www.anandtech.com/show/3734/seagates-momentus-xt-review-finally-a-good-hybrid-hdd
[01:01] <lifeless> http://www.intel.com/technology/io/thunderbolt/index.htm
[01:02] <lifeless> mwhudson: 'Compatible with existing DisplayPort devices'
[01:02] <mwhudson> lifeless: yeah
[01:02] <ajmitch> hads: that could be quite fast for some workloads
[01:02] <lifeless> greaky
[01:03] <lifeless> *freaky* - it exports pcei
[01:03] <lifeless> bah
[01:03] <lifeless> pcie
[01:03] <hads> ajmitch: I can get that for $150 ex for you
[01:04] <ajmitch> for what size drive?
[01:04] <hads> 500GB
[01:04] <ajmitch> quite tempting
[01:04] <lifeless> hads: you work at a computer reseller?
[01:05] <hads> lifeless: I run an online store so have access to most of the distributors in NZ.
[01:05] <lifeless> hads: nice!
[01:05] <hads> Happy to get things for anyone here
[01:05] <lifeless> hads: whats your url?
[01:07] <ajmitch> hads: still considering whether I should get that alix board, though I have a bit less need for it now
[01:07] <ajmitch> lifeless: nicegear.co.nz
[01:10] <lifeless> cool, thanks
[01:12]  * mwhudson suddenly thinks about routers
[01:12]  * ajmitch ended up getting a draytek vigor dsl modem, it seems to be working fairly well
[01:13] <hads> Sorry, making lunch for the little fella.
[01:13] <mwhudson> yeah, i don't need a modem though, am on telstraclear
[01:13] <mwhudson> in fact i have a netgear modem i need to trademe
[01:14] <ajmitch> UP Speed:997161     Down Speed:20118133   SNR Margin:13  Loop Att.:8
[01:14] <ajmitch> the fun of living near the exchange
[01:14] <ajmitch> & I like having a dsl modem that's accessible over the LAN with telnet
[01:23] <ibeardslee> so the most infuriating thing about installing Windows (after installing windows) is that the window control buttons are over at the top right
[01:32] <mwhudson> it's funny not using windows for so long
[01:33] <mwhudson> when you read things like "this laptop boots fast, it boots win7 in just 45 seconds"
[01:34] <ibeardslee> I blame an encrypted /home for my netbook being slow to get going
[01:51] <ajmitch> 45 seconds still seems a lot faster than my laptop booting, I'm sure
[01:55] <hads> I have encrypted home on tihs laptop, boot time is around 10 seconds :)
[01:56] <ajmitch> I also tend to suspend my laptop rather than shut it down
[02:03] <ojwb> restoring from suspend doesn't seem to have improved as much as startup from cold sadly
[02:04] <ojwb> perhaps I have too much stuff running - I've noticed it seems better if I take the time to close down excess stuff first
[02:14] <lifeless> what I really want is a DSL card for my mini-itx, so I can piss off the cisco adsl modem and use something with grunt
[02:14] <lifeless> its presumably possible, I just haven't dug into it - that and needing to run a pppoa stack
[02:15] <lifeless> ojwb: restoring from hibernate you mean ?
[02:15] <ojwb> lifeless: oh, yes
[02:15]  * mwhudson has horrific flashbacks to tryiing to get internet to work in mooloolaba
[02:15] <lifeless> ojwb: so yeah, hibernate is much harder than clean boot
[02:15]  * ojwb has a feeling it just returns with pretty much an "all swapped out" state
[02:16] <ojwb> and then stuff fights to get swapped back in
[02:16] <ajmitch> lifeless: the modem I bought has pppoa->pppoe bridging, so you can run a pppoe client on something with more grunt
[02:16] <ojwb> it certainly seems a lot slower than just loading the used memory amount of data should
[02:17] <ajmitch> ojwb: resuming from suspend on my laptop can be horribly slow at times
[02:17] <ajmitch> I don't even try & resume from hibernate
[02:18] <ibeardslee> my problem with suspend is that sometimes the ethernet doesn't come back
[02:18] <ajmitch> unfortunately hardware support on linux can still be a bit spotty
[02:19] <ibeardslee> although I need to do some tests again .. I don't think the Atom does hyperthreading
[02:19] <ibeardslee> disabled that in the BIOS and it has behaved a bit better (I think)
[02:20]  * ojwb doesn't really like hibernation to be russian roulette
[02:20] <ojwb> if I was prepared to loose all the state, I'd just shut down
[02:20] <lifeless> ojwb: thats precisely whats happening:
[02:21] <ojwb> lifeless: yeah, my guess is it was the obvious way to implement it
[02:21] <lifeless> ojwb: all clean pages are discarded, all dirty pages are swapped out, and normally unswappable stuff is special cased a little
[02:22] <ojwb> lifeless: do you know if anyone's tried just getting paged-in stuff saved out as a linear(ish) chunk, then reloading that upon resume?
[02:23] <lifeless> so the swsus2 project worked on performance
[02:23] <ojwb> last time I looked, that didn't seem to be making rapid progress
[02:23] <lifeless> they compress pages, try to minimise the during-hibernate data structures etc
[02:23] <lifeless> even if you ignore hardware support issues
[02:24] <lifeless> hibernate is always going to be more work than shutdown + boot
[02:24] <lifeless> (because it discards your current state)
[02:24] <ojwb> http://lwn.net/Articles/113555/ - so they were struggling to merge it in dec 2004...
[02:25] <ojwb> yeah, I realise there's a lot more data to load
[02:28]  * ibeardslee waits patiently for coreboot
[03:32] <hads> Interesting; http://lkubuntu.wordpress.com/2011/06/28/pam-face-authentication/
[03:43]  * ojwb wonders if it can tell the difference between you and a photo of you
[03:45] <ajmitch> like fingerprint scanners on laptops can be easily misled?
[03:49] <ojwb> by cutting off someone's finger?
[03:50] <ajmitch> no, with gummy bears :)
[03:51] <ajmitch> I think it was because there were an awful lot of fingerprints on the laptop case, so getting one for the scanner wasn't very hard
[03:54] <ojwb> oh yes, I remember reading that now
[03:57] <chilts> heh, that's pretty funny
[03:57] <chilts> fingerprints everywhere
[03:58] <ojwb> I guess the answer is to use your toe on the fingerprint scanner
[03:58] <ojwb> unless you walk over your laptop barefoot a lot
[04:02] <ibeardslee> you could .. .. nah let's not go there
[04:05] <ojwb> ibeardslee: I cleaned it up from my original idea...
[04:05] <ajmitch> probably a good thing
[04:05] <ojwb> perhaps by "smile to log on" it means it checks for the motion from not smiling to smiling
[04:05] <ojwb> rather than just recognising you smiling
[04:06] <ojwb> sadly their wiki redirects to a broken URL
[04:06] <ajmitch> that'd be more secure than a static image
[04:06] <ojwb> and the contact link just seems to load forever
[04:06] <ojwb> i rather lost enthusiasm for trying to report broken websites some time ago anyway
[04:15] <chilts> ojwb: not sure I ever did, unless it's a friend of mine I usually just don't bother
[04:38] <snail> co-worker learn sh scripting choose 'PATH' as a variable name for the working directory
[04:39] <ajmitch> that doesn't quite make sense
[04:40] <ojwb> I'd suggest using lower case for your own variables in shell scripts
[11:50] <lifeless> hads: how long does it take something to freight from akl to chch ?
[11:50] <lifeless> hads: [if you happen to know, if you don't thats fine]
[20:35] <ibeardslee> morning
[20:55] <ajmitch> morning
[21:51] <chilts> good morning to each and every one of you
[21:52] <ajmitch> a rather bright, sunny morning at the moment
[21:52] <ajmitch> sun just risinhg over the hill & shining on my laptop screen
[21:53] <chilts> how annoying! :)
[21:53] <chilts> it's alright here, apart from the wind and cold ... and dark clouds to the north
[21:54] <chilts> otherwise just beeeeaaaaudiful
[21:54] <ajmitch> no clouds in sight down here, or wind at the moment
[22:21] <chilts> and the heavens open
[22:22] <ajmitch> move to dunedin
[22:24] <ibeardslee> for some reason I have in my mind that I am probably heading down to Dunedin at some stage this year .. damned if I can remember why
[22:25] <ajmitch> it's not for sports or something related?
[22:25] <ibeardslee> oh .. hang on
[22:26] <ibeardslee> a Tairabunkai seminar
[22:26] <ibeardslee> 12/13 Nov
[22:26] <ajmitch> vaguely sports-related, I guess :)
[22:26] <ajmitch> where's that going to be?
[22:27] <ibeardslee> Probably at the Goju Ryu dojo
[22:27] <ibeardslee> 225 Main South Road, Green Island
[22:28] <ajmitch> ok, not so close to where I am
[22:28] <ajmitch> if I remember, then we may be able to meet up at some point that weekend
[22:29] <ibeardslee> I'll probably arrange to try and head down on the Friday to catch up with people down that way
[22:30] <ibeardslee> but that's Nov so still a few months away .. although will probably coming barrelling towards me as the year disappears
[22:30] <ajmitch> I'll probably be up in wellington for kiwi pycon in august
[22:30] <ajmitch> along with a few other people from here
[22:38] <mwhudson> morning
[23:17] <Atamira> morning