[01:39] <snap-l> I love that Banshee has problems doing things like... oh... seeking in a track
[01:41] <rick_h_> http://paperjs.org/about/ snap-l this is what I've been saying that we're waiting for
[01:42] <snap-l> Yeah, that's awesome
[01:50] <Milyardo> 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999pppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
[01:51] <snap-l> ++
[02:01] <rick_h_> umm what?
[02:02] <rick_h_> geeze, I wonder if this internet here is even 1.5mb
[03:19]  * greg-g returns home from vacation
[03:19] <greg-g> and holy email batman
[03:20] <rick_h_> lol
[03:20] <rick_h_> where did you end up going?
[03:21] <greg-g> black lake, up north, exit 310 off of I-75, about an hour east of there
[03:21] <greg-g> no internet nor cell phone (at least sprint, seemed verizon got service)
[03:21] <brousch> sprint sux
[03:22] <rick_h_> greg-g: awesome, good trails?
[03:23] <snap-l> I don't understand why bands license their albums per track on Bandcamp
[03:24] <rick_h_> per track?! seems strange
[03:24] <snap-l> This one album has the first track as (C), and the other as BY-NC-SA
[03:28] <snap-l> That's OK; you all get exposed to my original plan. ;)
[03:28] <snap-l> muhahahaha
[03:31] <gppl> I need a quick program to crop a picture.
[03:32] <snap-l> If you can figure it out, Imagemagick should do the trick
[03:32] <snap-l> http://www.imagemagick.org/Usage/crop/
[03:35] <greg-g> rick_h_: actually, no hiking, this was a family thing, carrie's stepdad's 60th
[03:35] <greg-g> july 11th-15th will be hiking (or something)
[03:35] <greg-g> and now, bed
[03:35] <greg-g> zzzzzzzzzzzzzz
[04:10] <Milyardo> o_O
[04:10] <Milyardo> Who's pasting stuff in my console
[12:55] <snap-l> Good morning
[13:10] <greg-g> hey-o
[13:11] <_stink_> morning
[13:14] <Wolfger> paty
[13:15] <Wolfger> party, even
[13:18] <brousch> helz yeah. i have the kindle reader on my nook color
[13:24] <snap-l> God, Musicbrainz makes me batty
[13:25] <snap-l> http://musicbrainz.org/edit/14708020
[13:25] <snap-l> Frankly, I just want my CDs ripped
[13:25] <brousch> oh awesome. all of my droid apps are being shoved onto the nook color now
[13:56] <Wolfger> Middle image. Pure awesome. http://www.teefury.com/images/articles/1303864045_4069-Nicholas_J_Seluk-9397.jpg
[14:15] <brousch> ohyeahbaby. i can click an epub in my dropbox and it opens using the nook reader
[14:16] <brousch> don't even have to copy files over manually any more
[14:37] <nullspace> hello alls
[14:39] <snap-l> Howdy
[14:39] <snap-l> Long time no see
[14:42] <nullspace> glad to be back
[14:43] <nullspace> I'm just running on my localmachine so I'm not presistant
[14:44] <snap-l> 's OK.
[14:50] <nullspace> restarting after update
[15:06] <Wolfger> Hey nullspace, welcome back
[15:12] <_stink_> wb, nullspace
[15:12] <rick_h__> _stink_: http://goo.gl/iIaFX
[15:13] <rick_h__> funny too, putting hime to work: http://goo.gl/0RSbx
[15:13] <_stink_> rick_h__: hah, i like the dad/son Bears shirts
[15:14] <rick_h__> oh yea, did that for when grandpa came over
[15:14] <rick_h__> have to work hard to raise the boy right
[15:15] <_stink_> rick_h__: how did he handle the drive?  you guys do overnight again?
[15:16] <rick_h__> yea, overnight ftw
[15:16] <rick_h__> he woke up a couple of times
[15:16] <rick_h__> mainly when we stopped
[15:16] <rick_h__> and the last 30min we were getting a strong "all done" signs thrown our way
[15:16] <rick_h__> so the 11/12hr is right on the limit I think
[15:17] <snap-l> Man, I'm not happy that Bank of America took away the OFX import
[15:17] <snap-l> er, export
[15:17] <rick_h__> oops
[15:17] <snap-l> "/msg -freenode nickserv NOTE:Exclusive use of Active Statement and WEB Connect downloads should help prevent duplicate transactions from being downloaded. "
[15:17] <snap-l> NOTE:Exclusive use of Active Statement and WEB Connect downloads should help prevent duplicate transactions from being downloaded.
[15:18] <snap-l> Except that MoneyDance doesn't support WEBConnect, and every other format is just a damn QIF which doesn't handle dupes
[15:26] <Wolfger> blargh
[15:26] <Wolfger> I have to write a Scope Statement.
[15:27] <Wolfger> I was given a sample. The first section is the Executive Summary. I read it (for the project we are now finishing up) and it confused me and made my head hurt.
[15:28] <Wolfger> If you are reading a summary of the scope of work for something you're damned near done with (i.e. intimately familiar with) and it confuses you and makes your head hurt.... something's wrong.
[15:29] <Wolfger> So do I write a similar Executive Summary that uses lots of big managerial words without saying much at all, or to I just write a plain English statement of what the project is about? :-p
[15:30] <Wolfger> I know which I prefer, and I'm pretty sure that will get a negative reaction.
[15:30] <_stink_> do it in iambic pentameter?
[15:34] <Wolfger> Oh, excellent idea!
[15:34] <Wolfger> Except I hate writing iambic pentameter.
[15:34] <Wolfger> Do you think they'd notice if I did each section as a limerick or haiku?
[15:35]  * Wolfger is suddenly excited about writing a Scope of Work statement, and that's just wrong.
[16:21] <snap-l> I love the interpretation of REST on this project
[16:21] <snap-l> essentially, it's XML sent via POST
[16:21] <rick_h__> doesn't that count?
[16:21] <snap-l> (rolls eyes)
[16:21] <rick_h__> :P
[16:22]  * rick_h__ tries to PUT to snap-l's api
[16:22] <snap-l> pardon me while I contain my excitement
[16:28] <Wolfger> You're pardoned
[16:30] <brousch> wow. nautilus is using 800MB of RAM and it's not even open!
[16:30] <snap-l> Don't use top to figure out memory leaks
[16:30] <snap-l> nautilus may be using shared resources
[16:31] <snap-l> That said, I think you have a legit complaint.
[16:31] <brousch> well something's using a ton of ram, and i don't have anything abnormal open
[16:31] <snap-l> brousch: Is it going to swap?
[16:31] <snap-l> and how much is resident?
[16:32] <brousch> not swapping yet
[16:33] <snap-l> laptop, or desktop?
[16:33] <snap-l> and are you using Virtualbox?
[16:33] <snap-l> also, boxers or briefs?
[16:33] <brousch> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/101667/Naughty%20Nautilus.png
[16:34] <brousch> no, it's native install
[16:34] <brousch> boxers
[16:35] <snap-l> Hmmm...
[16:35] <brousch> i don't event remember asking nautilus to do anything intense lately
[16:35] <brousch> like viewing a folder of 10,000 photos and thumbnails
[16:36] <snap-l> Can try killing it, and see if it balloons back up
[16:36] <jrwren> only 10,000? it can't handle that? what a piece of junk.
[16:36] <snap-l> sudo strace -p [process_id_of_nautilus]
[16:36] <snap-l> can see what it's doing
[16:41] <brousch> yeah, that's helpful
[16:41] <brousch> NOT
[16:41] <brousch> i killed it
[16:42] <snap-l> and?
[16:42] <brousch> it is better now
[16:43] <snap-l> Wonder what caused it pain
[16:43] <snap-l> You might want to keep an eye on it
[17:20] <snap-l> I really wish Wordpress supported PostgreSQL out of the box
[17:54] <brousch> mysql is just as good as postgres
[18:04]  * Wolfger cringes
[18:05] <Wolfger> I guess rick_h__ is not paying attention....
[18:08] <brousch> trolling's no fun if no one bites
[18:49] <snap-l> OK, this is a first
[18:50] <snap-l> completel freezeof my Windows machine
[18:50] <brousch> snap-l: eh? did you just turn it on for the first time?
[18:50] <snap-l> Har har
[18:50] <Wolfger> :-)
[18:51] <snap-l> no, usually if Windows crashes, it's like a wall coming crumbling down
[18:51] <snap-l> Really acting weird today
[18:51] <snap-l> Had one instance where it dropped the tunnel because of no activity
[18:54] <brousch> google+ will destroy facebook http://www.google.com/+/learnmore/
[18:55] <snap-l> I love how these things are closed betas
[18:56] <Wolfger> Heheheh
[18:56] <brousch> you know you want in
[18:56] <jjesse> i think they want to try and recreate the scarcity of gmail invites
[18:56] <Wolfger> I want it to be open beta. WTF is the point of a closed-off social site?
[18:57] <Wolfger> It'd be more useless that Identica or .... that "Free" version of FB I can't even remember the name of.
[18:57] <jjesse> diaspora
[18:57] <Wolfger> yeah
[18:58] <Wolfger> I mean, those are useless because nobody wants to use them. A closed beta is useless  because nobody *can* use them
[18:59] <Wolfger> Kinda like Wave...
[19:00] <krondor> I think the closed beta really killed wave, took way too long for people to know people also on wave
[19:00] <brousch> ug, wave
[19:00] <Wolfger> Yep
[19:00] <brousch> the slowness killed wave
[19:00] <Wolfger> Obscurity/closed-beta and also a craptacular user interface killed it.
[19:01] <brousch> and the fact that you had to write your own google app engine-based program to do anything
[19:01] <Wolfger> pish
[19:01] <Wolfger> it was fine as a standalone colaborative chat program
[19:02] <brousch> slower than sucking shit through a straw
[19:02] <Wolfger> I don't even want to know how you know the speed of that
[19:03] <brousch> observation
[19:03] <brousch> you can find anything on the internet
[19:04] <brousch> haha "eldavojohn writes "If math gives you a raging brainer prepare yourself for MoMath opening next year to 'expose the breadth and the beauty of mathematics' in New York City."
[19:04] <brousch> raging brainer
[19:05] <devinheitmueller> Hey guys.  So I am in the process of building a REST/JSON API for a service, and am concerned about API documentation.  Anybody know of any good tools for this sort of thing?
[19:05] <snap-l> I wonder if there's a way to speed up Ubuntu One using rsync
[19:06] <devinheitmueller> .... and no, I believe the whole notion that "REST is self-describing" is a load of BS...
[19:06] <snap-l> devinheitmueller: I totally agree with you there.
[19:07] <devinheitmueller> I know the API is going to have to be maintained, and I want strict controls to track changes over time and version the API.  This means being able to detect newly added fields and note that documentation is required.
[19:07] <devinheitmueller> Looking at lots of other publishers of REST APIs, it seems that almost everybody is doing it by hand via a Wiki, and nobody ever actually versions their API since they apparently don't care about backward compatibility.
[19:08] <brousch> backwards is for shmucks. go boldly forward! don't look back!
[19:08] <Wolfger> LOL
[19:08] <devinheitmueller> If this were SOAP, this is the sort of stuff I would be doing with WSDL, but there isn't really an equivalent for REST/JSON.
[19:08] <devinheitmueller> heh
[19:09] <snap-l> There's a WADL file
[19:09] <snap-l> it brings the horrors of SOAP to REST
[19:09] <devinheitmueller> Yeah, WADL seems like a pretty half-baked solution.
[19:09] <devinheitmueller> And the W3C basically is giving no backing to WADL since WSDL 2.0 presumably accomplishes the same thing (but has no support for JSON as opposed to XML)
[19:10] <snap-l> Yeah, we're implementing WADL for our REST which is essentially the same shit as our SOAP interface, just without the SOAP bit
[19:11] <devinheitmueller> Also, there seems to be a real dearth of tools which actually support WADL, so having a formal interface description is not very useful if there are no tools which can use it.
[19:14] <devinheitmueller> The SPORE stuff looked not too bad, but again, it's got almost no widespread implementation and it's client side only (unlike WSDL where you can use it for both clients and on the server to validate input requests)
[19:14] <snap-l> Yeah, I'm not terribly familiar with what's the bet practices for REST
[19:15] <snap-l> AFAICT, it's the reaction to the strictness of SOAP
[19:15] <devinheitmueller> It's because SOAP is a b**ch to implement, and all of the implementations for various languages are of spotty quality and inconsistent.
[19:16] <devinheitmueller> Unfortunately, I can easily say the same thing about XML, where under Perl there are about ten different parsers out there, none of which are available by default with the distro.
[19:16] <Wolfger> snap-l: What are you saying? REST is to SOAP as Perl is to Java?
[19:16] <snap-l> No argument here. :)
[19:16] <snap-l> Wolfger: REST is to SOAP as Ruby is to Java
[19:18] <devinheitmueller> I'm having similar challenges with JSON schema.  There is only one really solid/complete implementation, and it's written in JavaScript.
[19:21] <snap-l> If you're looking for consistency, you should be looking at SOAP
[19:22] <snap-l> frankly, REST / JSON are more cowboy tools
[19:22] <devinheitmueller> If SOAP::Lite wasn't such crap, and if people didn't need a C compiler to build all the alternatives, I would seriously consider SOAP.
[19:22] <snap-l> Python's SOAP library is quite nice
[19:23] <devinheitmueller> Nobody in the real world uses Python.
[19:23] <devinheitmueller> ;-)
[19:23] <snap-l> If you really cared about SOAP Implemetations, you'd be using Java. ;)
[19:24] <snap-l> And yes, I tried using SOAP::Lite. Writing XML by hand was less painful
[19:24] <snap-l> couldn't figure out what problem it was solving, because it wasn't solving any problem I had.
[19:24] <devinheitmueller> Well, I don't really care what language the customers use to communicate with my server.  It just needs to not be seriously braindamaged and/or have dozens of dependencies.
[19:25] <devinheitmueller> Generally speaking though, most of the people who want to talk to my systems are "scripting people" like sysadmins, so Java is not really a common language of choice for that audience.
[19:26] <snap-l> Just use RPC and get over with it. ;)
[19:26] <snap-l> Who cares about the baby anyway?
[19:27] <devinheitmueller> I used SOAP::Lite a few years back.  I did get it to work, but it was slow, carried dozens of CPAN module dependencies, and was a PITA to get the requests properly formatted.  Oh, and no WSDL support.
[19:27] <snap-l> devinheitmueller: It's not gotten any better since then
[19:27] <devinheitmueller> Oh, and SOAP::Lite's serializers would "guess" the data types based on the data, so you could end up with malformed requests if sending what is supposed to be a "string" containing "1234".
[19:28] <brousch> Nobody in the real world uses Perl
[19:28] <snap-l> Now now, all God's languages gotta get along
[19:28] <devinheitmueller> I was kind of hoping that because REST is so much simpler, and in theory has more widespread language support that this would make it easier to provide an API that can be consumed by sysadmins.
[19:29] <snap-l> devinheitmueller: And it is, but it's not self-documenting, nor is it as rigorously defined as SOAP
[19:29] <Wolfger> snap-l: what about the devil's languages?
[19:30] <snap-l> Wolfger: they all have the word "Visual" prepended.
[19:30] <devinheitmueller> I cannot provide a solution that can only be consumed by Windows platforms.
[19:31] <brousch> Mono
[19:31] <Wolfger> snap-l: so ASP.Net is one of god's languages? O_o
[19:31] <snap-l> Wolfger: Don't be daft
[19:31] <Wolfger> ;-)
[19:32] <devinheitmueller> In 2011 I would have assumed that it would be relatively easy to find an API mechanism which 1) doesn't have a zillion dependencies, 2) is widely available across a variety of languages, 3) allows some mechanism for versioning and documentation, and 4) allows for data-driven validation of requests/responses.
[19:32] <snap-l> brousch: Mono is the reformation
[19:32] <Wolfger> ASP... Python... languages of the snake!
[19:33] <devinheitmueller> To quote Saul, "Asps, very dangerous..."
[19:33] <snap-l> devinheitmueller: there's three problems. 1) W 2) W 3) W (and add a C for good measure).
[19:34] <snap-l> Honestly, the W3C is like the anti-ANSI.
[19:34] <Wolfger> I never thought it was that bad...
[19:34] <snap-l> (not that ANSI is a standard I'd want to wish on anyone)
[19:34] <devinheitmueller> snap-l: note, at no point did I even mention "conforms to standards" in that list.
[19:34] <Wolfger> then again, I haven't paid attn to W3C since the early 90's
[19:35] <snap-l> devinheitmueller: Correct, but SOAP got turned into shit by W3C, and REST is not far behind.
[19:35] <brousch> doesn't everyone use json these days?
[19:35] <snap-l> brousch: See above on why JSON has trouble
[19:35] <devinheitmueller> snap-l: Ok, that part I won't disagree with.
[19:36] <Wolfger> So... Let me get this straight:
[19:36] <snap-l> devinheitmueller: And yes, it's harder than it should be to send over a string from one server to another and have it still retain stringness
[19:36] <snap-l> or integer to retain integerness
[19:37] <Wolfger> There's nothing usable out there, and nobody is doing anything to correct that situation?
[19:37] <snap-l> Wolfger: Well, there are solutions, but Perl has poor implementations
[19:37] <snap-l> Soap::Lite being rather egregiously bad
[19:38] <snap-l> and the other SOAP modules for Perl requiring CPAN-hell and support C code
[19:38] <devinheitmueller> If the implementation can parse WSDL, it will know exactly what the expected datatypes are.  Using auto-detection of datatypes based on the underlying data is just crappy.
[19:39] <snap-l> devinheitmueller: And using Perl's auto-detection on top of it.
[19:40] <snap-l> though Perl should know the difference between a number and a string
[19:40] <snap-l> likely, under Soap::Lite, everything is a string
[19:40] <snap-l> which pretty much defeats the whole purpose for SOAP
[19:43] <Wolfger> well, under Perl, if you use 1234 like it's a number, it's a number, and if you use it like a string, it's a string. If SOAP::Lite has found a way to subvert that, I'm puzzled and impressed.
[19:44] <Wolfger> or possibly just not understanding the situation
[19:44] <jrwren> still on soap?
[19:45] <snap-l> Y'know, sometimes I wish this company had chat rooms
[19:46] <jjesse> aren't enterprise chat the whole Salesforce CHatter thing?
[19:46] <jrwren> campfire
[19:46] <snap-l> instead of watching e-mail threads with one line responses:  "SoapUI" (and the rest of the thread quoted, for good measure, including a 400KB image)
[19:46] <snap-l> Well, this is cross-company
[19:46] <snap-l> Campfire might work, but there's the problem of keeping folks using it.
[19:47] <snap-l> I'd like to teach the world to use a fucking Jabber server.
[19:47] <Milyardo> ^
[19:47] <snap-l> (sung to "I'd like to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony"
[19:53] <Milyardo> don't many XMLRPC libraries implement some sort of refelction in langanges that support it
[19:53] <Milyardo> I know Apache's java xmlrpc library does
[19:54] <Milyardo> While reflection is not quite the same a WSDL it could satisfy the need for documentation
[19:55] <Milyardo> actaully I guess WSDLs are a form of reflection
[20:05] <devinheitmueller> sorry, went afk.
[20:05] <greg-g> https://twitter.com/#!/sandyarmstrong/statuses/85784278901854208  [OH on Google+ "I just noticed that your 'Epic Bros' circle looks a lot like my 'Douchebags' circle"]
[20:05] <devinheitmueller> Wolfger: SOAP requires you to specify the types in the SOAP request, and the SOAP::Lite client guesses what type to specify based on the actual data in the scaler field.
[20:06] <greg-g> oops, people are actually talking productively in here
[20:11] <brousch> well we were
[20:12] <devinheitmueller> Unfortunately, this conversation has only convinced me that this stuff is all indeed royally screwed up and I haven't missed something obvious.
[20:16] <jrwren> sandy is cool
[20:56] <brousch> rick_h__ snap-l My PyOhio talk has been accepted. I'm officially on the hook now
[20:58] <snap-l> Awesomeness!
[21:21] <binbrain> brousch: whats your talk on?
[21:22] <brousch> snap-l named it
[21:22] <brousch> Django and google App engine, Why I'm using Flask and EC2
[21:22] <binbrain> whatever it is, you should change it last min to "The Power of MySQL w/Python"
[21:22] <binbrain> ahh, cool
[21:23] <binbrain> why are you using Flask :)
[21:24] <brousch> Simple to learn, modular, easy to use on many platforms (private server, EC2, GAE, Dreamhost)
[21:25] <brousch> I think it's a great framework for learning how to use frameworks
[21:25] <binbrain> cool