/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/06/29/#ubuntu-community-team.txt

paultagrrnwexec: Sorry for all the RE:, you've got some mail :)00:34
rrnwexec@paultag. Thank you sir :)00:35
paultagrrnwexec: not at all, please! Thanks for getting this together! :)00:35
pleia2rrnwexec: I'll get to mine too, it's just been a busy couple of weeks ;)00:37
paultagpleia2: yeah, I've really been slacking on getting stuff turned in lately :)00:37
paultagdamn you, workload!00:37
rrnwexec@pleia2. Thank you, and I understand 100% :)00:38
pleia2paultag: haha, actually I've gotten *a ton* done, just my todo list keeps growing to match :)00:38
paultagpleia2: I was at inbox0 for a glorious 2 days00:38
paultagI had to keep it u p, but it finally started growing again00:38
pleia2I think the closest I've ever gotten is under 20 :)00:38
paultagpleia2: this was the first inbox0 in over 10 months :)00:38
pleia2in love with taskwarrior though00:38
paultagpleia2: yar. I'm going to work on something where I can forward emails as tasks to my server00:39
paultagpleia2: then just ditch the idea of saving things in my inbox as "tasks"00:39
pleia2paultag: nixternal wrote a mutt thing to add emails as tasks, just need to snag your gmail as imap into mutt on the server00:40
paultagpleia2: I did that for kicks a bit back, but mutt was getting me peeved00:40
pleia2ah ok :)00:40
pleia2<3 mutt00:40
paultagI'm not sold yet00:41
pleia2imap is slow though00:41
paultag+1 there00:41
paultagI need to figure out how to use vim as my email client00:41
pleia2pfft, mutt is practically vim00:41
paultagsplit an "inbox queue" on the bottom, use :* shortcuts to navigate and just use the editor it's self to type00:41
paultagmeh :)00:41
pleia2you just need a better .muttrc!00:42
paultagoh pfft, the story of my life00:42
pleia2haha00:42
paultagI spend *hours* on .*rc files, then end up loosing them00:42
pleia2backups++00:42
paultagpleia2: I've since moved all my core rc files to Dropbox and ln'd them on my installs00:43
pleia2nice :)00:43
paultagalso helps keep things in sync, which is cool00:43
paultagsame with my .face and stuff too00:43
technovikingjcastro: is there a public ppa for installing etherpad on a Ubuntu server?01:37
paultagMan, I wish there was a way to jam over the internet. Too bad the lag borks that :(01:54
paultagI need someone to jam with, I'm itching for a solid session01:54
paultagI bet midi-jamming would be easy (thems small payloads), but I mean full on jam01:55
mhall119omg, everything on my plate right now has been deep fried02:50
paultagmhall119: eww02:52
paultagdeep fat fried food is just an excuse to hide what you're cooking with02:52
paultagnot to mention it coats the whole mouth with a nasty fat film02:52
james_wtechnoviking, https://launchpad.net/~etherpad/+archive/ppa02:54
technovikingjames_w: thanks!02:54
head_victimI'm a deep fried junkie, I refuse to own one on the basis that if I did everything would be deep fried.02:55
Cheri703paultag: you're using the wrong fats then02:55
paultaghead_victim: it's so gross02:55
* Cheri703 uses actual pure lard to fry things (though granted not DEEP FRIED often)02:56
paultagCheri703: I know how to fry without having it suck up fat, but I have a feeling mhall119's version of deep fried is not similar to how I fry things02:56
Cheri703true02:56
head_victimpaultag: you haven't lived until you've deep fried frozen pizza ;)02:56
Cheri703but it does come down to proper fats02:56
paultagCheri703: I like soy or canola, but only just enough to get away with the fry, I hate having fat on my food (added)02:56
paultagbut most things fried can be toyed with in other ways02:57
Cheri703I find that lard actually comes out much lighter, not so thick or sticky as vegetable based oils02:57
Cheri703I made the most AMAAAAAZING home fries with lard and my cast iron skillet...yuuummmm02:57
paultagCheri703: see, you can roast that with the same effect02:57
paultagwith a bit of rosemary02:57
Cheri703no, not with the crisp that it had02:57
Cheri703yeah, I can roast potatoes, but there is a different texture02:58
paultagCheri703: if you deep fry potato it goes bitter02:58
Cheri703I didn't deep fry them02:58
Cheri703lard has a bad rap02:58
Cheri703it's actually more healthy for you than a lot of the vegetable based oils (depending on use)02:58
paultagI refuse to have it in my kitchen, until I can rationalize it02:58
paultagand I can't02:58
paultagI really don't like oil-ey fat-ey foods, at all.02:59
Cheri703I don't use it that often, but when I do fry things, they come out MUCH nicer with lard than with vegetable or even olive oil02:59
paultagCheri703: olive oil has a way low smoke point, it's hard to fry with02:59
Cheri703also it's better than shortening02:59
Cheri703yeah02:59
Cheri703I'm just saying, cooking in general02:59
paultagyar02:59
Cheri703lard > other oils02:59
paultagolive oil > *03:00
Cheri703do some research, lard is actually fairly good for you (as far as fats go)03:01
Cheri703:)03:01
* Cheri703 has read up on it03:01
mhall119paultag: if you fry it right, in hot oil, it doesn't absorb much at all03:01
paultagCheri703: I can't justify it at all03:01
Cheri703and I get it from a butcher, vs the partially hydrogenated crap from the grocery store03:01
Cheri703it's cheap too...I get it for a dollar per pound03:02
Cheri703paultag: you come over sometime when you're in ohio, I'll cook you something :) I'm no paula deen with her butter, but it is good if used properly03:03
paultagCheri703: and I'll cook you something with less then a few teaspoons of olive oil03:04
paultag:)03:04
Cheri703most of my food doesn't have lard in it...I'm just saying *if* I fry, I use lard ;) /me needs a pic of that guy from the dos equis commercials...03:04
paultag:P03:04
paultagI just made the most awesome dessert tonight03:05
Cheri703yeah?03:05
cjohnstonpaultag: send me some03:05
paultagsweet gnocchi with a maple butter sauce (but only a bit under it)03:05
paultagthey are made with sweet potatos, brown sugar, cinnamon and love03:06
mhall119paultag: come down to Orlando next UDS, and I'll feed you a meal that'll take 10 years off your life, but be worth 2003:06
paultagcame out pretty good03:06
paultagmhall119: I'll match you, man, you'll get those 10 years back :)03:06
mhall119you know, that might actually work out03:06
paultag:)03:07
=== daker_ is now known as daker
dholbachnigelb, is the jam already underway?12:25
nigelbdholbach: I'm at work now. Will get it up and running in about 2 hours when I get home12:30
dholbachnigelb, ok, I just posted it on the ubuntudev accounts again12:31
nigelbcool12:32
nigelblet me poke tumbleweed too12:32
dholbachawesome12:33
dakerdholbach, http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/06/how-to-broadcast-your-ubuntu-desktop-and-more-on-ustream-justin-tv-etc/12:38
dholbachsweet, I'll take a look daker12:39
daker12:39
jcastropopey: sorry I missed you14:17
jcastroyou guys did manage to ring once though? weird14:18
nigelbheh, just saw someone refer to pleia2 as leia in an email :D14:29
popeyjcastro: a few times yeah14:29
jcastroodd, never rang more than once14:29
jcastrofml14:29
jcastropopey: I'll find a way to make it up to you14:29
popeyhah14:31
nigelbNow popey gets to get jcastro to do anyting for him!14:31
jcastroit's the power of the sideys14:32
nhandlernigelb: Well, pleia2 is a nickname standing for princess leia, so just calling her 'leia' is just shortening it more ;)14:42
popeyjcastro: am I right in saying that right now 11.10 today has Unity built against GNOME 3 libs?14:43
nigelbnhandler: heh14:43
jcastropopey: yes and no14:43
jcastroit is in trunk gtk3 afaik but not sure if that's been uploaded to one eyed rick.14:43
jcastrolet me go find out.14:43
popeyta14:44
jcastropopey: 100% tonight14:46
jcastroonly the panel remains14:46
jcastrothe rest is there14:46
nigelbjcastro: you should tweet that!14:47
jcastrowhen it's done. :)14:47
popeythank you14:52
nigelbI'm curious, isn't .deb file just an archive?14:58
popey"just an archive"14:58
nigelbwith some extra meta data in debian folder, but yeah.14:59
popeyyes14:59
popeyyou can unpack it with "ar -x file.deb"14:59
nigelbIn that case, I don't understand the reason for deb-extract (planet)15:00
nhandlernigelb: It has a few other archives inside it. This probably extracts those as well15:03
nigelbnhandler: ah, thanks15:03
nhandlers/archives/archives\/compressed files/15:03
popeydholbach: you can get chat logs for ustream sessions by pointing your irc client at c.ustream.tv15:05
popeydholbach: and join the channel, then log that15:05
nigelbpopey: wow, that's neat15:06
dholbachah ok, cool15:06
nigelbdholbach: I just used the old recipies for updating a package (for work), they are super easy and neatly written :)15:07
dholbachnice15:08
nigelbThis one, to be precise https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Complete#Updating_an_Ubuntu_Package15:08
popeydholbach: also, that webcamstudio is worth a look, but quite painful to use15:12
popeyIMO15:12
dholbachyeah, I'll have a look at it15:13
kim0yeah that's the one I had mentioned15:13
popeythere are other ways to do it in hardware which are more robust/reliable15:13
popeybut require you to have more than one computer15:13
popeye.g. video capture card15:13
nhandlerpopey: I added that as a comment on the blog already ;)15:22
* popey shuts up15:23
* nhandler just can't let popey take away from potential dholbach hugs ;)15:25
* dholbach hugs you all :-)15:25
* nigelb hugs everyone too ::)15:26
czajkowskijono: cjohnston mhall119 call ?16:59
cjohnstonafaik16:59
mhall119waiting to be invited17:00
jonoczajkowski, cjohnston, mhall119, nigelb, call now?17:00
czajkowskiyup17:00
cjohnstonjono: I can't skype17:00
jonocjohnston, msg me your num17:00
nigelbo/17:03
cjohnstondaker:are you on skype?17:04
nigelbjono: has the call started?17:11
jononigelb, yep17:14
nigelbjono: can you add me in?17:14
jononigelb, one sec17:14
jononigelb, you are breaking up too much17:23
jonowe cant understand you17:23
nigelbmhall119: okay, I wanted to state that we need postfix installed on that machine and we ned to clear that with IS17:24
nigelbjono: ^^17:24
nigelbLike, having an email server there and having it send out emails17:24
paultagnigelb: so I did not sleep last night17:32
nigelbpaultag: join the club!17:32
paultagnigelb: check this out, though17:32
paultagnigelb: I did something productive17:32
nigelbpaultag: what did you hack17:32
nigelb(that was my next question)17:33
paultagnigelb: I came up with a logo for my LLC17:34
nigelb\o/17:34
paultagnigelb: http://me.pault.ag/logoage.png ← rough cut17:34
nigelbpaultag: did you come up with a name?17:34
paultagnigelb: no, but I'm going to play off my last name17:34
nigelbnice!17:34
paultagwith some fancy swiss font (Helvetica or something) in the black part (or blue, eventually, I think)17:35
mhall119paultag: you have an LLC?17:35
nigelbmhall119: he's starting one17:35
paultagmhall119: I need to set one up to block off consulting work I think i'm engaging in in the next few weeks17:35
paultagmhall119: I can't do it as myself, since that ties personal assets to the consulting, which is a bad thing (tm)17:36
mhall119yeah17:36
paultagmhall119: so I'll get the work as me, but then have them sign the LLC into an agreement / SOW17:36
paultagmhall119: so I figure I might as well do a logo to put on invoices and stuff17:36
paultag(my last name means cut mountain in italian)17:37
paultagmhall119: I was considering Bit Chin, LLC17:41
paultag(bitchin)17:41
nigelbheh17:41
mhall119lol17:42
paultagSyn Tacks is already taken, which is lame17:42
mhall119"Cut Mountain" actually sounds like a pretty good general consulting company name17:42
paultagMetalithikos is pretty rad, I think I came up with that drunk, but it's just so greek and so lame17:42
paultagmhall119: humm, you have a point17:42
nigelbmhall119: Totally17:43
nhandlerpaultag: Sounds like you were a bit more productive than I was last night. I just wrote a basic clock script for some people: http://nhandler.com/cgi-bin/clock.pl?tz=America/Los_Angeles&color=218,165,3217:44
paultagmhall119: nigelb: http://me.pault.ag/tag.png ← what do you think17:44
paultagnhandler: that's actually still badass17:44
paultagnhandler: in perl, but badass17:44
mhall119everything in perl is badass17:45
nhandlerpaultag: I like that tag.png17:45
mhall119paultag: I like it17:45
paultagthanks nhandler :)17:45
nigelbpaultag: I liek it too17:45
paultagwell that's really cool17:45
paultagthat might actually work out17:45
nhandlerThe Perl script is actually fairly short and sweet. Although, it requires DateTime and GD, so it is a bit bloated in that regard17:45
nhandlerThey are using it on http://www.freenode-windows.org/about/about-us17:46
paultagnhandler: aye17:46
paultagI remember when UBT'ers droped idet and raided ##windows, damn near kicked them all17:47
paultagI guess it was just UFBT then17:47
* nhandler faintly remembers that17:48
nigelblol17:49
paultagclassic17:49
pleia2wow, that one must have been before my time17:49
nhandlerdholbach: Thanks for all of those edits. You reminded me that I still need to write a script for my session17:50
nhandlerpleia2: Yep17:50
paultagpleia2: yeah a bit :)17:50
dholbachnhandler, it's hard work getting people to commit to giving sessions :)17:50
paultagpleia2: I was not an ubuntu member yet, I remember unsigning the CoC, then re-signing it after I did that17:50
nhandlerdholbach: I know all too well17:50
nhandlerpaultag: Somehow, I doubt that counts17:51
paultagnhandler: me too :)17:51
=== salgado is now known as salgado-lunch
greg-gwhy does the Canonical blog show up as the "Ubuntu Cloud Portal" on planet.ubuntu.com?18:08
greg-gkim0: ^^ ? :)18:11
pleia2I think the proper question is why are blog.canonical.com feeds showing up in the cloud.ubuntu.com rss feed http://cloud.ubuntu.com/tag/planet/feed/18:12
pleia2s/feeds/posts18:12
greg-gaha! that is the proper question18:12
czajkowskigah twice in one day18:21
czajkowskipeople interviewing me have mailed at 5 mins before the time to put it out by an hr18:21
macogood thing it wasnt just the first one or they'd have collided?18:21
czajkowskino  but annoying as I'm hungry and need to go lie in the pool18:22
greg-gmmmm, pool, that sounds pleasent!18:23
AlanBellinterview from the pool18:24
greg-g+118:24
greg-gbtw, AlanBell, thanks for sharing that libreoffice slide template with the natty theme/colors. I used it the other day and loved it.18:25
AlanBellyay18:27
AlanBellspreadubuntu is great18:27
greg-g:)18:28
czajkowskigreg-g: free for a quick pm ?18:29
greg-gczajkowski: I was just packing up for a meeting :/ email?18:30
czajkowskiI already did...18:31
czajkowskiwas just following up on it18:31
czajkowskino worries18:31
greg-goh, heh, the gift one?18:31
czajkowskiyes18:31
czajkowskiok now a difficulty rininging  a UK number from USA18:44
czajkowskicome on18:44
czajkowskiSTARVING18:44
czajkowskiand need to pee18:44
czajkowskinot a good combination to go on the phone18:44
czajkowskipopey: ping18:45
nhandlerThe google+ hangout feature looks rather cool.20:00
PiciI'm looking forward to trying it out.20:07
AlanBellI am still struggling to get the hang of facebook20:08
AlanBellfacebook makes unity look easy to use20:13
Picihah20:15
AlanBelltrying to get a page http://www.facebook.com/pages/Ubuntu-UK/237328659623076 to look at an RSS feed20:16
AlanBellI have no clue how to do it after an hour or so of looking20:16
popeyhah20:16
popeywould you like me to look at it?20:16
AlanBellyeah20:16
AlanBellfrustrating thing is I think I have done it for my own profile somehow in the past20:17
=== daker is now known as daker_
AlanBellnote.php seems to be the file that does it20:18
popeyhttps://www.facebook.com/editnotes.php20:19
popeythats where you add the url of the rss feed20:19
popeywhich you get to from notes.php -> editing import settings (bottom left)20:20
AlanBellah, so use facebook as the page, then go to that url20:20
popeyor just navigate to ubuntuuk page and then click "edit info" at teh top20:21
popeythen apps -> notes20:21
popeythen as above20:21
* popey goes to get food20:21
AlanBellahh, "goto application" rather than "edit settings"20:23
jussifacebook is of the devil...20:25
AlanBellit is20:26
AlanBellI don't understand how real people use it20:26
AlanBellI totally get the FBML architecture and how to make apps for the platform20:27
AlanBelljust don't understand the UI20:27
AlanBelland the recursive marketing logic, "you need a facebook page to promote what you are doing" "great, how do I get people to like it?" "you need to run competitions and promotions to get people to like your facebook page"20:29
czajkowskiweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee20:29
* AlanBell spies a happy czajkowski 20:29
czajkowski:D20:29
nigelbI now read czajkowski's IRC chatter in her accent.20:34
Picinigelb: just insert 'oi' at the start of every line.20:35
Pici:P20:35
nigelbheh20:36
PiciI tend to subconsciously start mimicing people's accents when I talk with them.20:37
macome too20:48
macoi think by the time amber gets to her second sentence ive already got a bit of hers picked up20:48
macoat southeast linuxfest one of the guys asked something to which my answer included the word "shawl" ... "where are you from?" "pittsburgh" "but you just shawl like...like you're from here" "i'm a sponge" "oh, yeah, thatd do it. i'm not. i always sound like this"20:50
maco*just said shawl20:50
paultagmaco: the 'burgh accent is nuts20:50
paultaggah dawn dah by dem bridge20:51
macoget at the hass an go dantan20:54
macohuh. i do say go as gah if i'm not thinking about it20:55
macowell at least if front of dahn20:56
macoin front of "out" id say "go" properly20:56
macoits like "i'm good" versus "g'night"20:56
popeyYeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee HAW!20:56
macopopey: want an arn and a chipped ham sandwich?20:56
macopaultag: did you understand what i said?20:57
* maco forgets where paultag is from20:58
macoalso:  https://twitter.com/#!/lizaphillips/statuses/86158998092513281  QFT21:00
paultagmaco: sorry, had to run :) aye I totally understood21:23
paultagmaco: all my friends at college were from Pitt, so I can speak pittsburghese21:23
paultagI do laundray21:23
czajkowskireading http://valerieaurora.org/howto_salary/x40.html  rather interesting21:23
czajkowskiand makes lots of valid points21:23
paultagdantan, so good21:23
paultagczajkowski: I don't understand why that's "for woman", the advice is global21:35
paultagczajkowski: and I have a feeling if I wrote a "for men" version of that, people would roundly call me some chauvinist pig21:36
paultagthat's kinda lame21:36
paultagthat should be a "for programmers"21:36
paultag:(21:37
AlanBellwe write stuff "for ubuntu users"21:37
AlanBellwhich could totally apply to other linuxes and operating systems21:38
paultagAlanBell: I don't, and if I do, it's for an ubuntu-local function21:38
paultaglike locos21:38
AlanBellI did a course on python in #ubuntu-classroom21:38
AlanBellmy target audience was ubuntu users21:38
paultagAlanBell: and I'm sure you went over installation, with apt, and our policy in Ubuntu on python21:39
AlanBellnope21:39
paultagAlanBell: then it's for linux users, if that21:39
paultagmac and windows could learn as well21:39
AlanBellall but the very very last bit would have worked fine on windows21:39
AlanBellbut my target audience was linux users21:39
czajkowskipaultag: because in many cases women may not feel like arguing for a pay rise and would rather take the job and get the foot in the door and then work their way up21:40
czajkowskiwhere as a guy may be more bolchy about it21:40
czajkowskipaultag: put it this way21:40
paultagczajkowski: that's not true21:40
paultagczajkowski: that's a sterotype21:40
czajkowskipaultag: I'd happily kick your arse left right and center21:40
czajkowskiask me to name a salary and I'd be a lot shyer21:40
paultagczajkowski: I'll kick your arse if you don't see that's a double standard21:40
czajkowskipossibly should not be saying this on this channel#21:41
czajkowskipaultag: either way I'd still win in kicking your arse21:41
czajkowski;)21:41
paultaglook, I'm totally for equality, let's just be consistant :)21:41
paultagczajkowski: ♥21:41
czajkowskiI amm21:41
czajkowskiI would consistantly kick your arse and win21:41
czajkowskihow's that21:41
nhandlerI'd pay to watch that show czajkowski :)21:41
paultag:P21:41
paultagnhandler: I have a feeling there are many who'd pay good money for that21:42
czajkowski.away21:42
AlanBellgood idea :)21:42
czajkowski2 interviews in 1 day is not a good idea21:42
czajkowskimy brain is fried21:42
paultagczajkowski: I hear ya21:43
macopaultag: have you read Women Don't Ask? there's actually stats showing its not just a stereotype21:43
AlanBellczajkowski: alcohol improves the brain21:43
macothough it does include the fun stat that when women DO ask they're more likely to have the job offer retracted than men21:43
maco(probably something about being uppity...)21:44
paultagthat may just be good ole' fashond sexism21:44
paultagI'm saying that men can be just as shy, and often are21:44
paultagsexism is still very very present, and I totally get that21:44
macobut in general, statistically, women are more likely to low-ball or to accept the initial offer than men21:44
macosure there are people on the ends of curves, but thats always the case21:44
paultagmaco: I'm sure there are similar stats for situations where there's an oppressed minority as well21:45
macopaultag: the stat isnt just for tech21:47
paultagmaco: oh, no, I totally get it, I totally see your point, and we agree21:47
paultagmaco: I'm just saying her points are great, and apply just as well to men21:47
paultagmaco: and putting it as "advice for woman" puts me off21:47
macosure, they're good negotiating tips in general21:47
paultagI'm sure you can see that21:47
macoits just that you're more likely to have picked 'em up21:48
paultagI'm sure :)21:48
macoso you probably don't actually need to be *told* them all flat-out, unlike someone who grew up being told "good little girls aren't greedy, don't ask for too much"21:48
* AlanBell doesn't think that matters21:49
paultagmaco: aye21:49
AlanBellI don't think the author gives a crap that you were put off by the focus on women21:49
paultagAlanBell: I don't think so either21:50
paultagAlanBell: I'm a piggish man21:50
AlanBellme too, oink21:50
macoAlanBell: i thought you were a rooster21:50
paultagwho is clearly sexist and hates woman because of deep seated social gender-normaty21:50
AlanBellmaco: don't make me make cock jokes :)21:50
paultagAlanBell: ha! :)21:50
* AlanBell wonders if this conversation will meander back to on-topicness21:51
macopaultag: good imitation of a troll there, with the not-plural-form "woman" in a case where it calls for plural21:52
paultagmaco: womyn :)21:52
czajkowskipaultag: I_will_kick_your_ASS!21:52
czajkowskiare we clear21:52
paultagczajkowski: hey, it's the correct spelling21:53
maco(srsly, you can pretty much tell a troll by them not knowing that woman has a separate plural form....which i guess is because we're all one hive mind?)21:53
paultagmaco: special snowflake!!!21:53
paultagthe hive looks down upon deveation21:53
AlanBellmaco: can you join -uk22:02
maconeed someone to translate american to british?22:02
paultagfor the record, yes, I'm kidding.22:02
paultagmaco: oi! I've been watching lots of brit sitcoms, I'm getting good :)22:02
macopaultag: between Doctor Who and a british ex, i've got some practice :P22:03
paultagmaco: :)22:03
nigelband paultag sends out RFC.22:26
nigelbI knew this would happen some day.22:26
czajkowskiyup want to kick his arse up and down22:29
czajkowskiup and down22:29
czajkowskiup22:29
czajkowskiand22:29
czajkowskidown22:29
czajkowskipaultag: so help me you are going to drive me to a bottle of JD and there is none in the apt22:30
czajkowskiI may have to steal the bf stash of stuff22:30
cjohnstonHow can I add a /1622:30
cjohnstonuggh22:30
paultagczajkowski: :)22:32
nigelbczajkowski: I will gladly help you kick paultag.22:33
nigelb:)22:33
paultaghehehe, tons of people would love to kick me22:33
nigelbyay, language-based loco teams22:34
czajkowskino langauge based teams22:35
czajkowskinot loco teams22:35
czajkowskilanguage teams are part of a loco team22:35
czajkowskibut not seperate22:35
paultagwhere did you read this?22:35
nigelbpaultag: reply to your mail.22:36
paultagnigelb: crud, it's going to blow up I can tell22:36
nigelbpaultag: Of course.22:37
nigelbYou have idea how much discussion went into this at UDS.22:37
nigelbWe lost a session thanks to this argument.22:37
paultaghehehe22:37
czajkowskinigelb: even better if the LC had been added to the discussion or added to a blueprint or told it was being had in advance..22:38
nhandlerThis has been discussed on and off for years22:38
czajkowskiwe get landed with the work :)22:38
paultagOK, I'm off for dinner22:38
paultagI love you all dearly22:38
nigelbczajkowski: a sesson got hijacked actually :(22:38
czajkowskipaultag: nn22:38
czajkowskioff to bed myself22:38
paultagczajkowski: nn, ttyl22:38
nigelbgood lawd22:38
nigelbI should sleep!22:38
paultagnigelb: nn :)22:38
paultag/away!22:39
nigelbNite paultag, czajkowski22:39
nhandlerpaultag: Out of curiosity, why are you calling it a LEP? Did I miss something? I know Debian uses DEPs, and I thought LEPs were for the LP folks (not Ubuntu)22:39
* AlanBell headdesks at paultag's mail22:39
* nhandler also debates replying to ask about ubuntu-chicago22:39
cjohnstonpaultag: I guess you need to get the other email out quick to squash this thing quick fast and in a hurry22:40
czajkowskinhandler: oh yeha ye have to change22:40
* AlanBell observes that all the examples are about ubuntu-uk22:40
czajkowskihence why nixternal is gonna go mad at me22:40
AlanBelland how uk is the iso country code . . .22:40
AlanBellwhich it *isn't*22:40
AlanBellit is GB22:40
czajkowskiAlanBell: no there is an excetion popey pointed it out22:40
AlanBellbut I don't want to change it22:40
czajkowskinhandler: ye ned to be the state name also22:40
JanCczajkowski: actually, language teams are often (semi-)independent to locoteams22:40
czajkowskifolks22:40
czajkowskiGOOD NIGHT22:41
nigelbheh22:41
cjohnstonlanguage teams are not local teams.. language teams are locale teams... and don't fit into loco teams22:41
AlanBellnight czajkowski22:42
JanCcjohnston: it depends, some languages are local to one country, and then it's natural to have them as part of the locoteam22:42
nhandlerThe interesting thing is, Chicago really isn't a sub loco of the IL loco. The IL loco really doesn't exist at this point (not sure if it ever did).22:42
rrnwexecvancouver is not a sub of canada either ;)22:42
rrnwexecmind you, we're not 'official', so this might be a moot point22:43
cjohnstonJanC: a Local team can't not be local... You cant have a local team that spans spain puerto rico, cuba and mexico22:43
nhandlerrrnwexec: Well, there also appears to still be a CA loco. There is no IL loco (official or unofficial) at this point22:43
cjohnstonLocal teams are not language based.. they are location based22:44
rrnwexeci guess the point might be made that a loco team can and might stand independently. a team is a team.22:44
cjohnstonYou can't have  a physical event that people in Mexico, PR, and spain take part in22:44
JanCcjohnston: but in reality, some language/country combinations have so much overlap that having a separate team is not useful  ;)22:45
cjohnstonA language team would be a translation team22:45
cjohnstonExample please?22:45
JanCcjohnston: Italian or Danish or whatever ?22:46
JanCOTOH Dutch or French or Spanish or English are spoken in so many countries...22:46
cjohnstonItaly would be a team.. Someone who speaks Italian in America would be an a US team...22:46
cjohnstonRight.. That's why you have a location based team22:47
JanCcjohnston: how many people in in the US have Italian as their main language?  ;)22:47
mhall119in NY/NJ, could be lots22:47
mhall119oh dammit, now you've gotten me involved in this >:(22:48
JanCI'd expect they know Italian as a second language mainly22:48
* mhall119 hates on paultag 22:48
JanCanyway, take Danish or whatever as an example instead22:48
JanCin case of Dutch, the translation team is semi-independent22:49
cjohnstonJanC: local team.. not locale.. Why would a french canadian join the france team22:49
cjohnstonThat doesn't make any sense22:50
JanCcjohnston: many Dutch-speaking Belgians are part of the Dutch team, and many French-speaking Belgians are part of the French team22:50
cjohnstonThat's their choice.. But that doesn't make it a local team.. its still a locale team... and therefore not a loco team22:51
JanCwe thibnk it's illy to set up our own suypport irc/forum/etc. infrastructure22:51
JanCwe think it's silly *22:51
cjohnstonyou dont have to22:51
JanCwe join both locoteams ;)22:52
cjohnstonYou can do like ubuntu-es... its a spanish language support channel.. you dont have to live in spain to join it22:52
cjohnstona locale team is not a loco team22:52
JanCto some degree, yes22:52
JanCin practice, things are a lot more blurry  ☺22:53
cjohnstonthats what we are trying to fix22:53
JanCplease don't22:53
cjohnstonthings shouldnt be blurry, and thats why "rules" are being put into place22:53
JanCfixing things to make them more complicated doesn't help...22:53
cjohnstonOk.. So you are a new user.. And you join a "Local Team" expecting to meet people who are Local... lets take a spanish speaking person in Mexico for example.. So they join Ubuntu espanol.. well that team doesnt ahv anyone near mexico22:54
rrnwexecmy two cents: if it says Ubuntu <Team Name> LoCo, then it's golden.22:54
rrnwexec<Team Name> is just a label22:54
mhall119can we make this a "we're not going to force teams to rename, but please be kind and help the loco-directory look nicer by doing it voluntarily"?22:54
JanCcjohnston: if you are mexican, you'll probably join ubuntu-mx, which might point to the Spanish language forum22:55
rrnwexecUbuntu MexicanLanguage LoCo22:55
* AlanBell makes alternative suggestion22:56
JanCthere is no mexican language AFAIK  ;)22:56
rrnwexechee22:56
AlanBellnever make me look at the big list of loco teams22:56
JanCor there are many22:56
rrnwexeci was being a little whimsical ;)22:56
rrnwexecUbuntu Spanish LoCo perhaps :)22:56
cjohnstonJanC: so why have a spanish team22:57
cjohnstonand there is a mx team22:57
JanCthe point is, the French help forum is run by the French loco, and the Dutch help forum is run by the Dutch loco22:57
mhall119AlanBell: you'll look at it, you'll look and it and you'll like it!22:58
mhall119or you'll get no dessert22:58
JanCso as Ubuntu Belgium, we point peopel to those resources  ;)22:58
cjohnstonJanC: ok? thats fine.. you can use their forums.. but it isnt a "dutch speaking loco team"... there arent any english speaking loco teams22:58
AlanBellmhall119: don't wanna22:59
mhall119JanC: is there any reason the dutch locale team can't use the belgian loco team's IRC and ML?22:59
cjohnstonnope22:59
JanCcjohnston: but the Dutch Locoteam is also the dutch-speaking locoteam, and similar for the French  ;)22:59
mhall119or why the belgian loco team can't use the dutch IRC and ML?22:59
AlanBellI want to click europe, then I want a map of europe then I want to click where my house is, then I am done22:59
mhall119AlanBell: code that up and we'll apply the patch23:00
cjohnstonJanC: that is going to be changed.. as a locale team isnt a local team.. and its going to be defined23:00
AlanBellmhall119: ok23:00
JanCmhall119: the Dutch locale team has a separate mailing list, but uses the Dutch IRC channels for e.g. meetings23:00
mhall119JanC: okay23:00
JanCand they are in some ways part of the dutch locoteam23:00
JanCalso using their wiki etc.23:01
mhall119so does the Belgian loco team also use those resources?23:01
JanCin some ways, the Belgian locoteam uses Dutch/French locoteam resources, yes  ;)23:01
JanCas I said before, things are blurry  :P23:02
* cjohnston has to go.. dinner time23:02
cjohnstonyes.. and we are unblurring23:02
cjohnstono/23:02
JanCno23:02
JanCpleasy don't23:02
JanCyou'll make things complicated for us  :P23:02
* AlanBell wonders who's problem this is all solving23:02
JanCwell, I'm happy to listen to proposals23:03
JanCbut I prefer rules that aren't too strict to be practical23:04
AlanBellhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Location_European_nation_states.svg so we start with something like this, make it clickable23:04
AlanBelldo the same for the other continents23:05
mhall119AlanBell: who's gonna keep this up to date?23:06
JanCanother example: the frysian team is (or will be) half part of the Dutch team and half independent23:06
AlanBellmultiple countries sharing a common language click to the same place23:06
AlanBellmhall119: it is mostly a one-off excercise23:06
JanCAlanBell: where to click depends on what users want though  ☺23:07
AlanBellso click on belgium and it could ask you what you want23:08
mhall119what you want?23:08
mhall119you clicked on Belgium23:08
JanCsomething like that; if they want support vs. if they want to help promote Ubuntu23:08
mhall119doesn't that mean you want belgium?23:08
AlanBellmhall119: not neccessarily, no23:08
AlanBellEurope != America23:09
JanCmhall119: if you want support on a forum, IRC, mailing list; Ubuntu Belgium doesn't really provide that23:09
mhall119JanC: why not?23:09
JanCwe point to ubuntu-nl/ubuntu-fr/ubuntu-de/etc. for that23:09
AlanBellhowever you could easily go click on holland if you want dutch, but happen to live over the border23:10
JanCmhall119: what's teh point of having our own support channels?23:10
JanCand splitting up knowledge?23:10
mhall119JanC: so you can meet up with people who need help23:10
JanCthe best 1st line for support are the channels of ubuntu-nl/ubuntu-fr/etc.23:11
mhall119hmmm, I think the problem is how we view the purpose of loco teams23:12
AlanBellJanC: do you think a clickable map of europe could work?23:12
JanCAlanBell: if every locoteam can provide their own set of links after that, yes23:13
AlanBelltechnically it would be trivial to click on belgium and offer links to a few teams, or user could go back and click a different country if they want to identify with that23:13
AlanBellmhall119: the mapping of languages to countries in Europe is messy23:14
AlanBelland in fact everywhere23:14
mhall119AlanBell: yes23:14
mhall119all the more reason to stich with the less messy borders23:14
AlanBellI could totally see #ubuntu-us-tx-es happening23:14
AlanBellor a -us-hispanic loco23:15
AlanBellhowever I think clickable map would hide the names to the point where strict standardisation of the names is not much of an issue23:16
mhall119AlanBell: are you gonna make Palestine clickable?23:17
JanCright, clicking Texas could show the locoteam including sublocos, related locos, etc23:17
AlanBellmhall119: if the wikimedia commons map has it as a distinct entity then it would be clickable23:18
mhall119FYI, there are other borders/nations that are contentious23:19
JanCand if not, the Isreali & Palestine loco's will have to manage the links attached to it23:19
mhall119Kurdistan is another example that I think came up23:19
mhall119and Taiwan23:19
AlanBellthat would be a yes23:19
JanCKurdistan isn't considered independent by any nation AFAIK23:20
mhall119it's not23:20
JanCbut Taiwan is (often under another name)23:21
mhall119AlanBell: I'm  just warning you, it's likely to come up for one of these23:22
AlanBellyeah, that is fine23:23
AlanBellI would deal with that by delegating border decisions to wikimedia commons23:23
AlanBelland if in doubt show the user both loco's in the area23:23
mhall119also, it's likely that countries will change on about an annual basis23:23
AlanBellbzr branch23:23
AlanBellmerge request23:23
AlanBelldone \o/23:24
JanCthe US already has many locoteams, we could remove them too  ;-)23:24
JanC(j/k)23:24
AlanBellyeah, that would make it simpler :)23:24
mhall119JanC: except our loco teams are geographic23:25
AlanBelland a random combination of states and cities23:25
mhall119the only trouble they cause is having multiple per country23:25
mhall119yeah, the cities are mostly relics of the early community though23:25
mhall119they should probably get consumed by/expanded into state-wide teams23:25
JanCmhall119: right, but in some countries geographic makes less sense23:25
mhall119JanC: depends on what the purpose is23:26
mhall119if the purpose is finding people like you online, then probably not23:26
mhall119if the purpose is finding people near you, then it is23:26
AlanBellor some combination thereof23:27
rrnwexec@mhall119: I don't consider our city team a "relic". In fact we likely have more people than the country team that pre-dates us ;)23:27
mhall119for example, someone in Mexico might be interested in an #ubuntu-us-tx-es, but they won't likely be attending meetups in Texas23:27
rrnwexecand our goals are differnet.23:27
mhall119rrnwexec: what teams and how are they different?23:28
JanCIIRC there is an ubuntu-tamil team, that caters to speakers of that language in India (and maybe other countries?)23:28
mhall119JanC: great, but will that work for meetups?23:28
AlanBellif you are german/french/italian speaking swiss then it really isn't far to go over the border to find people to meet up with23:28
AlanBelland the border you want to go over depends on your favourite language23:28
mhall119AlanBell: that's great in the EU, where you can cross borders with ease23:28
rrnwexec@mhall: vancouver is a local team. canada is a national (dispersed) team.23:28
AlanBellexactly23:29
JanCmhall119: considering that ubuntu-in is not allowed "state" locoteams currently, I suppose it could be useful  :P23:29
mhall119rrnwexec: ah, yes, Canada is a huge country, even your provinces are really too big to be practical loco teams23:29
JanCas tamil is spoken mainly in soem states23:29
rrnwexecwe cannot realistically grow a community at a national level. we need to start with neighbourhoods, towns, cities.23:30
mhall119JanC: IIRC, tamil is also spoken outside of India23:30
rrnwexecbut for smaller countries and states it may work23:30
JanCmhall119: it is23:30
mhall119JanC: so can someone from one of those countries attend a meetup in India?23:30
mhall119rrnwexec: can't we just partition Canada some more?23:31
* AlanBell decides to revoke America's declaration of independence23:31
mhall119:P23:31
mhall119AlanBell: try it, it didn't work out so well for you last time23:31
rrnwexec@mhall119: yes. i think the proposal i heard earlier makes sense. have a map that can drill down to the town level.23:32
mhall119rrnwexec: I'd like to have that, regardless of my stance on language teams23:32
mhall119like I told AlanBell, all I need is mergeable code23:32
rrnwexeclanguage teams make clickability tricky for sure23:32
JanCmhall119: some dutch people come to belgian events when we announce them on the dutch channels23:34
JanCsometimes those events are closer for them than dutch events  ;)23:34
mhall119JanC: do you mean dutch people outside of Belgium?23:34
JanCyes23:34
mhall119because, unless I'm mistaken, "dutch" isn't a place23:35
* AlanBell goes ewww at the way the current map is implemented23:35
JanCwell "dutch" can refer to inhabitants of The Netherlands  :P23:35
mhall119right23:35
mhall119but again, it's hard to say "I'm far from dutch, but close to Belgium"23:36
JanCthat's another thing!23:36
JanC"dutch" is an adjective23:36
JanCand "the dutch" means somebody from the Netherlands23:37
mhall119all the more reason for it not to be a loco team23:37
JanCthe locoteam is ubuntu-nl, meaning both dutch & dutch-speaking  :P23:38
JanC(currently)23:38
mhall119or, meaning local to the Netherlands23:39
JanCwell, yes & no, depending on the topic  :P23:39
JanCdutch as in local to the Netherlands + dutch as in dutch-speaking23:40
mhall119what might a topic look like that involved ubuntu-nl, but didn't involve the Netherlands?23:40
JanCe.g. from time to time we post announcements or requests for volunteers for events in Dutch-speaking Belgium on the ubuntu-nl forum23:41
JanCand in some cases, there is documentation about Belgium-specific things (like our e-ID)23:42
AlanBellfairly astonished at how that world map works23:43
AlanBellit uses this image http://loco.ubuntu.com/media//images/map.png23:43
mhall119JanC: does Belgium not have a loco team?23:44
JanCmhall119: we have !!23:44
mhall119so why doesn't that team host the events in Belgium?23:44
JanCmost of us also work inside ubuntu-nl or ubuntu-fr though  ;)23:44
AlanBellhttp://loco.ubuntu.com/media//css/continents.css and this css file to move bits about when hovering23:44
mhall119JanC: which is great, Florida's loco is involved in events throughout the south eastern US23:45
JanCmhall119: we host events here, that's our main purpose, but finding new volunteers is often easier by using the existing channels23:45
mhall119JanC: I still don't understand why the Netherlands team can't promote an event in Belgium, without having to have a language team in the middle23:46
mhall119for example, the Florida team promoted among it's members the South East Linux Fest which was held in South Carolina23:46
JanCthe language team is semi-independent and semi-dependent of ubuntu-nl  ;)23:47
JanCanyway, events don't involve the language team23:47
JanCexcept if translations are needed  :P23:47
mhall119JanC: it's not that we don't like language teams, but you can see how it's practically impossible to support them in the LD while still being useful to geographically local teams23:48
JanCI think AlanBell's proposal fixes that  ;)23:48
JanCmake all locoteam relevant to a country manage the links that people see when they click their country23:49
JanCmanage it together23:49
AlanBellhttp://testing.webdesignsarasota.com/europe-560px/23:50
AlanBellsomething like that we could do23:51
AlanBellwe have jquery to use and a source of svg maps that would have all the right ids23:51
* JanC should have gone to bed at least 1 hour ago23:54
AlanBellme too, night all o/23:54
JanCso, al, sleep wel  ☺23:54
JanCwell23:54
mhall119night JanC and AlanBell23:55
* JanC has to promote Ubuntu in the European Parliament tomorrow :P23:56
mhall119\o/23:59

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