[00:53] <ailo> ScottL, ping
[03:50] <ScottL> ailo, pong
[03:50] <ailo> Hi ScottL 
[03:50] <ScottL> hi ailo
[03:50] <ailo> How's progress? I was just working on the documentation a bit
[03:50] <ailo> Realized I was overdoing some things. Hoping we can keep it really short and simple :P
[03:50] <ScottL> i haven't done anything this week
[03:51] <ScottL> but i have a hole in my schedule tomorrow afternoon that i was going to use for this
[03:52] <ailo> No news on the XFCE bit?
[03:52] <ailo> I just installed Oneiric yesterday btw
[03:53] <ailo> And I got myself a firewire device a few days ago
[03:54] <ScottL> ailo, i saw that you talking about your firewire in OSM
[03:54] <ScottL> that's cool
[03:55] <ScottL> the bit about xfce, cory has his packages lined out and is waiting for mr prouit (i think) to look over them
[03:55] <ScottL> mr prouit is from the xubuntu devs
[03:56] <ScottL> i really should go ahead and make my changes to the bzr branches in preparation for cory's changes
[03:57] <ScottL> the loose schedule is to have this ready to test the xfce by alpha2
[03:58] <ailo> ScottL, Sounds good.
[03:59] <ailo> ScottL, As far as ubuntustudio-controls goes, I will need a couple of more weeks, but it's really not going to be much of a problem to code. 
[03:59] <ailo> I should probably look into what's happening with python overall
[04:00] <ailo> And gtk
[04:00] <ailo> Things are changing now with Gnome3
[14:36] <scott-work> ailo:  do have any of your notes somewhere where i can view them or should i just start making a google doc now?
[14:43] <holstein> scott-work: are you talking about documentation?
[14:43] <holstein> if so, get me in on that doc
[14:44] <scott-work> holstein: i can do that
[14:44] <scott-work> i have a process consideration or goal in documentation
[14:45] <scott-work> i am hoping that at some point after we have started identifying what pages we would need that we can group them
[14:45] <scott-work> and create major heading or topics
[14:45] <scott-work> then using these topics we can start moderating the existing pages to fit this form so that when new pages are created we have a place to link them
[14:46] <scott-work> i am concerned about having orhpan pages and a general lack of organization
[14:46] <holstein> yeah, and im having a hard time getting my mind around it
[14:47] <holstein> but, if ailo had a page where he could delegate some work, id chip away at it
[14:47] <scott-work> if you want to read about what has already been done i'll provide some links
[14:48] <scott-work> this is labaled as "video tutorials" but basically outlines what i felt the documentation should follow: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/IntroTutVideos
[14:48] <scott-work> the very first section of this page was an attempt to organize it visually as well:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Sandbox
[14:50] <scott-work> basically, the organizational thought was to create a linear path that would educate a new user through giving step-by-step examples for experienced users
[14:51] <scott-work> hopefully we can also align/supplement this with actual videos as well for key areas
[14:51] <holstein> yeah... its challenging, but i think its something that could at least aid
[14:51] <holstein> these are things that most of which might actually be distro non-specific too
[14:52] <holstein> which i think would be cool... get some arch user traffic or whatever
[14:52] <holstein> not that im trying to convert, but having other users talk up our wiki's and tute's... that would be cool
[14:53] <scott-work> oh agree, especially that jack stuff, explaining what it is, why is usefull, how powerful it is
[14:53] <holstein> the key stuff right after you get it running
[14:53] <scott-work> especially if we can get in early on new stuff like jack-session...i wonder how many people really understand what it is, why it's useful, and how to use it?
[14:54] <holstein> tweaking it, and connecting... thats all generic
[14:54] <scott-work> holstein: exactly, which is why i wanted to view this from a new user perspective
[14:54] <scott-work> "key stuff right after you get runnign"^^^^
[14:54] <holstein> scott-work: what i find is even alot of the ubuntustudio users dont know how to use it
[14:54] <scott-work> by it do you mean "ubuntu studio" or "jack"?
[14:54] <holstein> JACK
[14:54] <scott-work> right
[14:55] <scott-work> i agree, it's fucking daunting if you are uneducated about it
[14:55] <scott-work> oops, sorry for language
[14:55] <holstein> often, an old-schooler will pipe up in the OSMP channel and say 'OK... how the hell do i use JACK?"
[14:55] <holstein> and ive been assuming they already were
[14:55] <scott-work> lol...that's funny (and sad) how that happens
[14:55] <holstein> some of them are coders too
[14:56] <holstein> JACK is just different
[14:56] <holstein> i think someone with access to a studio patchbay (which i have) might be able to draw some comparisons
[14:57] <scott-work> a good picture of one would assist the analogy, certainly :)
[14:57] <holstein> thats really a selling point too
[14:58] <holstein> the thing that makes it challenging to a new user or convert would really turn a studio guy on
[14:58] <holstein> and especially as this stuff gets more attractive looking
[14:58] <holstein> the JACK connection GUI's
[15:04] <scott-work> i saw that qjackctl has a new release
[15:04] <scott-work> side note:  i hope to test the -lowlatency kernel past just installing it during the long weekend
[15:05] <scott-work> hopefully then we can get it packages and start pushing it into the repos some what soon then after others test it as well
[15:39] <scott-work> holstein: thanks, mike :)
[15:39] <holstein> :)
[15:41] <scott-work> i'll try to watch the videos soon to understand what's what
[15:41] <holstein> i just did a 'hangout'
[15:42] <holstein> i had a virtual tour of the main office at redhat :)
[17:22] <scott-work> holstein: i had forgotten that ailo had shared a doc with me, i think i shared it with you as well
[17:24] <holstein> scott-work: got it... thanks
[17:41] <scott-work> holstein: i'm adding some stuff right now, i don't know how google is handling that or if you can update it or see that i've even changed it
[17:41] <scott-work> not changed, but added to it
[17:42] <holstein> its actually pretty quick to update
[17:42] <holstein> we use one for the ubuntu weekly newsletter
[17:45] <scott-work> that's cool
[17:45] <scott-work> i'm thinking about how we describe things like recording audio with ardour
[17:45] <scott-work> would it be better to give them a lot of little "block" of information or throw it all together in a tutorial with a larger goal?
[17:46] <scott-work> example, i'm currently forwarding showing a user how to get sound ito ardour, then how to record a track, then how to multitrack it
[17:46] <scott-work> or should this all just be wrapped into a tutorial?
[17:47] <holstein> i think smaller ones that are well indexed somewhere
[17:47] <holstein> then, we can add to the master index or whatever easily
[17:48] <scott-work> i like this idea because if you are struggling to do a certain part it can be confusing to try to find that section within a larger tutorial sometimes
[17:48] <holstein> yeah... i think its easier on both ends
[17:55] <scott-work> i suppose if the tutorial were clearly laid out, "in the first part we will focus on getting audio into ardour" for example, it could still existin with a tutorial though
[17:55] <scott-work> i kinda like the tutorial because it becomes kinda like a playbook for people to put it all together, even though the steps are logical and in order
[17:56] <scott-work> i admit that i dislike it when people tell me, "look at the manpage" because i want more than just the specifics, i want an overall view of things, kinda like a well written tutorial
[17:57] <scott-work> also, we need to think about how MIDI will fit within the audio portion, especially if we are using tutorials
[17:58] <holstein> yeah... i think it'll be easier with an index
[17:58] <holstein> then, we can edit as we go, if needed
[17:58] <holstein> otherwise, we gotta get the whole thing laid out, and working, and then put it up
[17:58] <scott-work> right, that's my feelings exactly :)   right on the head
[18:01] <scott-work> i wish there was a white board we could use to scribble things together 
[18:01]  * scott-work is going to lunch
[18:03] <holstein> http://www.skrbl.com/173451774 maybe
[18:06] <holstein> nah... its laggy
[19:18] <ailo> scott-work, Just to add to the discussion on documentation. I really want to separate documentation that tries to teach users about how to make music and how to mix songs from the type of documentation that deals with just reference about the tools that are available
[19:19] <ailo> I really would like the documentation to be as simple as possible, but have it include links to other documentation projects that deal with specific things
[19:20] <ailo> While I was working on it before, I felt like the US documentation doesn't really be very extensive at all
[19:20] <ailo> doesn't need to be extensive, is what I was trying to say
[19:21] <scott-work> ailo:  i agree that a majority of the documetnation doesn't need to be extensive
[19:21] <ailo> Workflows can be interesting, but they should be a separate part all togehter
[19:21] <scott-work> many topics just need to be mentioned, almost in a casual conversational way, just so people are aware of it
[19:21] <ailo> Right
[19:22] <scott-work> audio interfaces are a subject like this, i believe
[19:22] <scott-work> we can point out a few items to contrast their abilities and limitations and move on
[19:23] <scott-work> ailo: i also agree with linking to other sources, saves time
[19:23] <scott-work> ailo: but i'm not sure i understand what you mean about separating different documentations (this is from your first sentence)
[19:24] <ailo> Well, I guess the best way is to show you what I would prefer, once I have it somewhat sorted out
[19:25] <ailo> Right now, I have some topics, in order but I'm trying to decide what to write about each one
[19:25] <ailo> One thing that came to mind, which seems like a big part of the audio bit, is about jack, PA, ladish and stuff like that
[19:26] <ailo> scott-work, Did you work out how the PA-jack bridge works?
[19:28] <scott-work> ailo: i did!
[19:29] <scott-work> it worked well for my m-audio delta 44 card, but made the onboard card all but unusable
[19:29] <ailo> scott-work, So, what do you think? Should we not try to add that as an option to system settings on a us-controls application?
[19:30] <ailo> scott-work, Would you care to let me know about the details about that?
[19:30] <scott-work> ailo: i would still consider including it by default
[19:30] <scott-work> ailo: i will gladly share the details, but there isn't much
[19:31] <ailo> scott-work, Any extra packages, or just a script?
[19:31] <scott-work> ailo: i testing it twice before removing the pulseaudio-module-jack package because i was doing the linux outlaws interview using pulse and skype
[19:32] <ailo> ok
[19:32] <scott-work> ailo: all i did was install pulseaudio-module-jack and either relog or reboot (don't remember) and it worked
[19:32] <scott-work> pulse sinks showed up in the jack connections window
[19:32] <ailo> Aha, well, that's cool then. I think I tried it once, but no success
[19:32] <ailo> Will need to try again
[19:33] <scott-work> david h. said that natty was the first system to be "ready" for it (i think)
[19:33] <scott-work> something about dbus or jack-dbus or something, cant' remember the specifics from the email on the list
[19:34] <ailo> scott-work, Why is it that your onboard card didn't work, I wonder
[19:34] <ailo> I should ask falktx about that maybe
[19:34] <scott-work> i woudl like to know as well, i was planning on doing more testing with it, develop a procedure and then ask others to test it as well
[19:35] <scott-work> but i need to get a few other things done first, like testing the -lowlatency kernel, documetnation, and updated the seeds for applications updates :)
[19:46] <scott-work> ailo:  i want to reiterate something i told holstein, i think of the documentation progress as a linear progression of how i would explain ubuntu studio to a new user who is unfamiliar with it
[20:14] <scott-work> ailo: my previous statement wasn't intended to mandate how the documentation of the organization, it was just to explain _my_ organization of it
[20:15] <holstein> scott-work: you're allowed to mandate :)
[20:15] <scott-work> lol, but that doesn't really facilitate cooperation, collaboration, or community ;)
[20:17] <ailo> scott-work, No worries. I'm pretty flexible :P. I have some clues and ideas right now, and I feel ok with them. Just need to finish something up and present it
[20:18] <holstein> ailo: i implied this earlier, but..
[20:18] <holstein> if you are heading up this documentation
[20:18] <holstein> feel free to farm things out to me
[20:18] <holstein> i just cant seem to take the time to get my mind around the scope of how to get started
[20:19] <ailo> holstein, One thing that I have no clue about right now is installation
[20:19] <ailo> Since, we're moving on to Xubuntu based installation
[20:20] <holstein> ailo: as long as its a wiki page right?
[20:20] <holstein> and just says 'installation'
[20:20] <holstein> we can update and switch out as needed
[20:20] <ailo> I'm going to write stuff up in documents first
[20:20] <holstein> ideally, a link to a youtube with a screencast
[20:20] <holstein> and other visual aides
[20:21] <ailo> holstein, About the wiki, I'm not in a hurry to start pages there yet. I want to work out the text somewhere first
[20:21] <ailo> holstein, So, Google docs, or just OO docs is what I use right now
[20:22] <holstein> ailo: and ideally, revamp what we got, and clean them up
[20:22] <holstein> so theres not duplicates
[20:22] <scott-work> holstein: ailo and i have had this discussion before so i'm hesitant to beat the dead horse, but... i agree that having some structure identified (an outline or skeleton) will greatly facilitate progress
[20:22] <scott-work> although i think we need to all agree with the general outline or structure
[20:23] <ailo> I think we'll get there pretty soon, but it's not a bad idea to just start somewhere either
[20:23] <ailo> Like, doing something on just installation
[20:23] <ailo> But, starting to add wiki pages without an idea about structure is perhaps a little tricky
[20:27] <ailo> I feel more comfortable starting to work on the structure once I already have some text to fill it with
[20:28] <ailo> That's why I'm starting off by just writing and thinking about the different topics
[20:28] <ailo> Like, the sound system. PA, jack, alsa
[20:30] <ailo> It gets a little complicated trying to explain the sound system in just a few lines
[20:30] <ailo> For new users, that is
[20:31] <scott-work> ailo: i agree :)
[20:31] <ailo> But, if we have a very nice default way of doing things, we can just very quickly describe that
[20:31] <scott-work> but a few sentences can explain that there are two and that they serve different purposes
[20:31] <ailo> And give reference on each sound system separately at their own pages, if we want
[20:32] <ailo> Like, it's not hard to get some sound out, if you do this, this and this. No need to go inte detail. In this sence, that description would be more workflöw based
[20:33] <ailo> At the end of the page you can have some links for Alsa, PA, Jack, OSS and whatever else
[20:34] <ailo> Anyway, that's one thing I've been thinking about now
[20:34] <ailo> And also about hardware and devices
[20:35] <ailo> pci, usb and firewire
[20:35] <ailo> Cause it would be nice if it all could be explained quickly and very generally
[20:37] <ailo> The first thing a user wants, is just to start working on music. They want to get right into it
[20:37] <ailo> And try things out
[20:37] <ailo> Once they've done that a bit, they might revisit the documentation to read about more advanced topics
[20:38] <ailo> Or, video
[20:38] <ailo> Or, graphics
[20:39] <ailo> At first, I see it as a three step process. 1. install. 2. sound-check (jack, drivers, video-drivers, etc). 3. programs
[20:40] <ailo> Once you've done those three steps you might want to learn more about each step
[20:41] <ailo> The most frustrating thing that can happen to the user is when 1. installation doesn't work. 2. Can't get any sound
[20:41] <holstein> i like where this is going :)
[20:42] <holstein> is there a way to view all the current pages in ubuntustudio/*
[20:42] <holstein> on the wiki
[20:42] <ailo> We've been talking about tagging them
[20:42] <ailo> I don't know that much about the wiki myself, but I suppose tagging them would allow to see all pages in an index
[20:42] <ailo> Or, is it by adding a category?
[20:43] <holstein> im not sure about the indards, but its quite configurable
[20:43] <holstein> and ideally, they are just easy to find, and logically linked together
[20:43] <holstein> and from the site
[20:44] <holstein> now.. you look at something simple like !vanilla, and its all over the place
[20:44] <holstein> it would be easier i think going forward to think about having one page for things like that
[20:44] <holstein> instead of vanilla in hardy or whatever
[20:44] <holstein> just one running wiki that we can add to, and update, and remove stuff
[20:45] <holstein> anyways, ailo.. if you get the outline going, i can poke around and find pages that may be what we need, and plug them in on the google doc
[20:46] <holstein> we can revamp them with the material we have on the doc
[20:47] <holstein> i have a blueray burner coming today
[20:47] <ailo> holstein, You think you'll have any use for it? :P
[20:47] <holstein> im looking forward to archiving some ardour sessions easily, and getting them off the main machine
[20:47] <holstein> ailo: i plan on just using it for data
[20:47] <ailo> holstein, Is it very reliable, do you think?
[20:48] <holstein> ailo: i'll let you know ;)
[20:48] <ailo> Why not hard drives? Isn't that cheaper
[20:48] <holstein> i have an internal 1tb and external that im mirroring to
[20:48] <holstein> but still, i'd like to just archive some things and not mirror them and/or worry with them
[20:49] <ailo> I got to get some server space somewhere one of these days
[20:49] <ailo> Just for files
[20:49] <holstein> i thought about that too
[20:49] <holstein> im just not ready yet
[20:49] <ailo> Not good having all machines under one roof
[20:49] <holstein> theres that too
[20:50] <holstein> i can archive, and leave a copy somewhere else if its something that important
[20:50] <holstein> over at my parents house or whatever
[20:55] <ailo> We have a machine standing in my rehearsal. I use git to sync the machines
[20:55] <ailo> But, the bandwidth is too slow
[20:55] <ailo> Doesn't really work with large audio files
[20:55] <holstein> imagine with video :/
[20:57] <ailo> Mobile internet is getting cheaper, but it'll be a while before I get that
[20:57] <ailo> Would be nice with 100 Mbit
[20:59] <scott-work> i use several portable usb drives to backup and most of the time i keep one at work as well just to get it away from the others
[20:59] <scott-work> i had been backup up to cds and dvds but i heard that cds/dvds go bad over several years
[21:00] <scott-work> s/backup/backing up
[21:00] <scott-work> i had considered somethign like carbonte which i hear as a flat $57 a year for infinite backup but i don't think there is a linux client
[22:23] <saidinesh5> ailo: where do you stay??
[22:24] <ailo> saidinesh5, You mean, where do I live?
[22:24] <ailo> Sweden
[22:24] <saidinesh5> hehe..... ya
[22:24] <saidinesh5> just curious.....since you mentioned 100Mbit :P