[00:29] <ojwb> not really ubuntu related, but ...
[00:30] <ojwb> http://www.nzosa.org.nz/ is giving 502 Bad Gateway and seems to be hosted at catalyst it
[00:30] <ojwb> anyone here know who to prod?
[00:33]  * ibeardslee prods
[00:33] <mwhudson> so... do people who actually do ubuntu development have a .pbuilderrc that's about a megabyte?
[00:36] <ajmitch> mwhudson: I don't know about others, but mine surely isn't that large
[00:36] <ajmitch> it's large, yes
[00:37] <mwhudson> i guess a megabyte is pretty unlikely
[00:37] <mwhudson> but long
[00:37] <ajmitch> about 120 lines
[00:37] <ojwb> mine is 18 bytes
[00:37] <ojwb> though I'm not sure I really count
[00:37] <mwhudson> what i actually want to do is add a ppa to the sources.list in the chroot
[00:37] <mwhudson> is that straightforward?
[00:38] <ajmitch> you can do that with a hook
[00:38] <ojwb> or with OTHERMIRROR - e.g.: OTHERMIRROR='deb file:/data/olly/svn/xapian-trunk-debian/build/ ./'
[00:39] <ojwb> that's what I use to build a package against another that's not yet uploaded
[00:39] <ojwb> but any sources.list entry can go in there
[00:39] <ajmitch> eg I have a hook called D10_use_results which echoes a repository line into /etc/apt/sources.list & does apt-get update
[00:39] <mwhudson> ah right, --othermirror works i guess
[00:39] <ajmitch> that works as well, I guess :)
[00:39] <ajmitch> my pbuilder configuration has mutated over several years
[00:39] <ojwb> if you are doing a lot of building, sbuild is faster, but harder to set up
[00:40] <mwhudson> i think https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PbuilderHowto has mutated over the years too
[00:40] <mwhudson> ojwb: how come?  less downloading?
[00:40] <ojwb> less unpacking of tarballs helps
[00:41] <ojwb> you can set it up in all sorts of ways, but e.g. I have chroots on btrfs which it will snapshot to get a build env, then just discard after the build
[00:41] <ojwb> it can also do overlays with a ram disk, snapshots on lvm
[00:42] <mwhudson> i'll just abuse my SSD for now i guess :)
[00:42] <ojwb> with an SSD, pbuilder is probably a good solution - the reduced space from keeping the chroot in a tarball is nice if your SSD isn't huge
[00:44] <ajmitch> I think there'd be other speedups you can do with dpkg like libeatmydata or similar flags to make it avoids fsyncs
[00:44] <ajmitch> not sure how much it'd impact on an SSD
[00:46] <mwhudson> i guess building in a ramdisk or something would be better for drive lifetime
[00:47] <hads> I'm guessing you'd be upgrading an SSD because it's obsolete before you kill it.
[00:48] <ojwb> I run the build under eatmydata
[00:48] <ojwb> btrfs fsync performance with dpkg is apparently somewhat disappointing, and if the cloned chroot is trashed you really don't care
[00:51] <mwhudson> woot i have packages
[00:52] <mwhudson> i guess the next thing is a vm (or lxc?), because i sure don't trust myself enough to install them on my system :)
[00:52] <ajmitch> I use virtualbox for that
[00:52] <ajmitch> and if you're really not confident in the packages, vm snapshots help :)
[00:53] <mwhudson> heh
[00:55] <ojwb> just upload them to unstable and let other people test them for you
[00:55] <ojwb> (joke)
[00:56] <ajmitch> if noone complains for 10 days, you're set?
[00:56] <ojwb> yep
[01:14] <ibeardslee> ojwb: should be back now
[01:14] <ojwb> ibeardslee: cool, that looks happier
[01:28] <ibeardslee> I got an "ah shit" then "it's back"
[04:21] <mwhudson> ajmitch: do you have a trick for getting debs onto the vm?
[04:21] <mwhudson> ajmitch: i've been doing it by copying them via london, seems silly
[04:22] <ajmitch> mwhudson: I don't really, though you can use shared folders with virtualbox, or serve them from a local httpd
[04:22] <ajmitch> I tend to go for the local httpd option, since I run dpkg-scanpackages after building
[04:23] <mwhudson> i can't figure out how to get to the host from the guest
[04:23] <mwhudson> network wise
[04:23] <ajmitch> using virtualbox & NAT?
[04:23] <mwhudson> yeah
[04:23] <mwhudson> admittedly i haven't tried /very/ hard
[04:23] <ajmitch> you should be able to just use the normal internal network address on the host
[04:24] <ajmitch> I tend to switch them to bridged mode
[04:24] <ajmitch> then I can have the VM automatically pick up ipv6 & be available by ssh outside my home network
[04:25] <mwhudson> ajmitch: oh yeah, that works
[04:26] <mwhudson> hang on, no it doesn't
[04:26] <mwhudson> ping works, but no tcp
[04:27] <ajmitch> no iptables or funny routing ?
[04:28] <mwhudson> nope
[04:28] <ajmitch> odd
[04:28] <mwhudson> i guess i should figure out bridged mode
[04:28] <ajmitch> it's pretty simple, no real configuration needed
[04:29] <mwhudson> it's just a "i'm doing eleventy million things i don't really understand already" sort of day :)
[04:30] <ajmitch> heh :)
[04:30] <ajmitch> those days are just so much fun
[04:42] <mwhudson> does debhelper have documentation?
[04:46] <ajmitch> should have manpages & some documentation online
[04:46] <ajmitch> 'man dh', or 'man debhelper'
[04:46] <ajmitch> you can often get away with a pretty minimal debian/rules if it's a straightforward package
[04:47] <mwhudson> yeah, i've cargo culted a minimal one :)
[04:47] <mwhudson> and now need to make it a bit less minimal
[04:50] <mwhudson> i'm so happy pbuilder spends time
[04:50] <mwhudson> mv debian/tmp/usr/twisted debian/tmp/
[04:50] <mwhudson> Building database of manual pages ...
[04:50] <mwhudson> rather
[04:50] <mwhudson> during a build
[04:51] <ajmitch> heh
[04:51] <ajmitch> so you're doing a python package?
[04:51] <mwhudson> yeah
[04:51] <ajmitch> seen the guides on the python helpers & example packages?
[04:52] <mwhudson> what i want to do is move a file after the default action for the install step
[04:52] <mwhudson> ajmitch: no
[04:52] <mwhudson> but i don't know what the cwd will be there
[04:52] <ajmitch> http://wiki.debian.org/Python is where it starts
[04:53] <ojwb> the cwd will be the directory with the debian directory in
[04:53] <ojwb> unless I misunderstand what you mean
[04:54] <ajmitch> $(CURDIR) is often used there
[04:54] <ojwb> but if you just want to install a file in a different place, you can do that in a .install files
[04:54] <mwhudson> yeah that might be more appropriate
[04:55] <mwhudson> (an .install file i mean)
[04:55] <ajmitch> 'man dh_install' for details
[04:55] <mwhudson> what's the relationship between dh_foo and dh_auto_foo?
[04:56] <ojwb> similar names
[04:56] <ojwb> and they're both part of, or at least to do with, debhelper
[04:56] <mwhudson> i see
[04:57] <mwhudson> they're not related in any magic way?
[04:57] <ajmitch> manpage for dh_auto_install seems to say that it's called before dh_install is used
[04:57] <ojwb> no
[04:58] <ajmitch> I'm not very familiar with it tbh
[04:58] <ojwb> there doesn't even seem to be a dh_foo for several of the dh_auto_foo
[04:58] <ojwb> no dh_test or dh_configure for example
[06:01] <ojwb> hmm, downloaded a CSV of bank transactions and one of the names has "&amp;amp;" in
[06:01] <ojwb> not exactly confidence inspiring
[06:02] <ojwb> though I guess it could be wrong in the data the bank got
[06:10] <ajmitch> at least it wasn't bobby tables
[07:01] <hads> Bank systems suck.
[19:35] <ajmitch> morning
[19:59] <ibeardslee> morning
[20:06] <ibeardslee> ahh shit .. looks like I'll be looking elsewhere for a distro
[20:17] <ajmitch> ibeardslee: why?
[20:20] <ibeardslee> thunderturd looks looks like it'llbe the default mail client
[20:23] <ajmitch> and you can't install evolution yourself?
[20:25] <ajmitch> switching distro based on one default app seems like a bit of overkill
[20:26] <ibeardslee> yeah .. haven't had enough coffee yet
[20:26] <ibeardslee> will throw my toys if they drop ope/libre office from the CD though
[20:26] <ajmitch> I wouldn't think that you'd be an irrational fanboy :)
[20:27] <ibeardslee> what do you think the 'i' in 'ibeardslee' means ;)
[20:27] <ajmitch> persoinally I wouldn't care too much if it was dropped, but I know that others use it
[20:28] <ibeardslee> my gripe about the thought of dropping it is that if Ubuntu is going to be the CD for the masses .. what good does it become if people then need to go download a fairly commonly used app for kids homework etc
[20:29] <ajmitch> this is why they were talking about a ~1.5GB image as well
[20:29] <ajmitch> a single CD is great, but it's not a lot of space
[20:29] <ajmitch> I don't think they'll drop it soon though
[20:30] <ibeardslee> there will be much gnashing of teeth and philosophical debate when that time comes
[20:32] <ajmitch> especially given ubuntu's appeal in countries where high-speed uncapped internet isn't the norm
[20:33] <ibeardslee> and just quickly back to Thunderbird .. I hope that means that they are going to put effort into making sure that Lightning works and doesn't get out of sync with the Thunderbird version
[20:35] <ajmitch> don't hold your breath
[20:35] <ajmitch> I know that the guys who do firefox/thunderbird packaging do a lot of work, but I don't know how much upstream development would be done, or how much is needed
[20:38] <ajmitch> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-o-default-email-client lists a few lightning tasks
[20:48]  * ibeardslee starts installing the alpha-2
[20:59]  * mwhudson is an equal opportunity mua hater
[21:01] <ajmitch> still using pine? :)
[21:12] <mwhudson> god no
[21:13] <mwhudson> i use notmuch, but i realise that's not a client for everyone :)
[21:14] <ajmitch> I used to be a regular mutt user
[21:41] <chilts> morning
[21:43] <chilts> I used to use mutt, and I _think_ I may go back to it, but online email wins
[21:43] <chilts> (and yes, I know the two aren't mutually exclusive) :)
[21:49] <mwhudson> i've never understood mutt at all
[21:54] <ibeardslee> virtualbox IS better for testing ubuntu releases :(
[21:55] <ajmitch> ibeardslee: what broke?
[21:55] <ibeardslee> can't use the unity interface in kvm
[21:56] <ajmitch> you could try the unity-2d fallback
[21:56] <ibeardslee> err yeah .. that appears to be broken as well .. maybe it is the alpha status
[21:57] <ibeardslee> hmm .. now why did that work better that time?