[00:03] <broder> huh, i apparently missed the exciting discussion
[00:04] <broder> Laney, maco: if you want people to make core-dev look less intimidating, you two should apply. right now i feel a little awkward applying for core-dev when my app is going to be reviewed by two people who were motu before me and who i know do more than i have recently
[00:05] <micahg> broder: I don't think most people are thinking about that
[00:06]  * ajmitch agrees that they should apply though :)
[00:27] <slangasek> bryceh: installation should always recurse down the recommends as well as the depends; so I don't know why it didn't get pulled in on install.  Is it *available* at install time?  (I.e., is it on the CD where it should be?)
[00:27] <slangasek> cjwatson: bugpattern - all seems reasonable to me
[00:29] <bryceh> slangasek, cjwatson sorted it.  I thought pitti had seeded it but it hadn't.
[00:29] <slangasek> bryceh: got it
[00:29] <bryceh> er, wasn't
[00:31] <lamont> if I go lucid->maverick->natty, do i need to bother rebooting into maverick?
[00:33]  * penguin42 would
[00:34]  * charlie-tca would, just to run all the updates
[00:34] <slangasek> lamont: let us know! :)
[00:34] <lamont> slangasek: heh
[00:35] <slangasek> lamont: btw, has kees pestered you yet about the bind9 package not shipping the dnssec root cert? :)
[00:35] <lamont> yeah
[00:35] <slangasek> that sounds inconclusive. :-)
[00:36] <lamont> he even convinced me that having installs of bind9 a year down the road fail horribly to run out-of-the-box, until manually corrected, makes sense
[00:36] <slangasek> ah :-)
[00:36] <lamont>  /bin/sh:        $python tests/test_all.py -q; \: not found
[00:36] <lamont> neat.
[02:03] <maco> broder: i kinda doubt ive done more than you recently :P also my next aspiration is kubuntu-dev :)
[02:04] <maco> broder: all ive done lately is sorta-emergency ubiquity poking
[02:09] <micahg> maco: there's no rush :), kubuntu-dev is very cool
[02:12] <broder> maco: i may be giving you guys crap as much/more than i'm being serious :-P
[02:13] <maco> and now that alpha 2 is out and kubuntu still doesnt have a working ubiquity, the emergenciness of my maybe figuring out how to fix it goes up *sigh* i think slangasek was a lot closer to figuring out what its doing than i am
[03:01] <slangasek> maco: oh ugh, is that bug still there?  I figured it'd gotten fixed somewhere along the line, since I hadn't heard any more about it :/
[03:02] <slangasek> maco: I understand what it's doing *wrong*, I just have no proposed solution for how to make it DTRT again
[03:02] <maco> slangasek: i havent seen an email from lp saying i can stop worrying about it...
[03:02] <maco> (i did see 9 emails from lp saying harald had decided i get 9 more bugs...)
[03:05] <maco> slangasek: ooh though given i see some bug reports about it now crashing on the partitioner, maybe it is getting past that part. will need to attempt in a VM
[03:08] <slangasek> we're talking about the keyboard map bug, right? which should have been language-specific?
[03:27] <ScottK> slangasek: Could you promote grantlee and it's binaries back to Main.  kde4libs is now depwait for it.
[03:36] <slangasek> ScottK: done
[03:38] <micahg> ScottK: so, anything left to do with bug 601662
[03:38] <ScottK> slangasek: Thanks.
[03:38] <ScottK> micahg: Yes.  It needs some work, but let's not block everything for a MIR that's been undealt with through a whole dev cycle.
[03:39] <micahg> k
[03:39] <slangasek> the package was already in main last cycle, so I think it's reasonable to repromote it on that basis anyway
[04:50] <pitti> Good morning
[04:51] <pitti> bryceh: no, I didn't check main promotion for xdiagnose, I just wanted the thing to work and use GTK 3 :)
[04:51] <pitti>  bryceh: it doesn't need seeding, it already has a reverse dependency
[04:51] <pitti> i. e. it wants to go into main already, just needs an MIR and actually promoting it
[05:01] <dupondje> Only Gnome Classic seems to work atm :(
[05:01] <dupondje> :p
[05:02] <pitti> not unity 2d? I heard talks that even 3d works on some platforms now
[05:02] <dupondje> nope, Xorg going 100% cpu and doing nothing :p
[05:03] <dupondje> gnome3 starts, but no menu's
[05:03] <dupondje> unity 3d also 100% cpu on Xorg
[05:03] <dupondje> :)
[05:04] <dupondje> something in last upgrades broke Gnome3
[05:04] <pitti> oh, somehow I read that as "on arm"
[05:04] <pitti> dupondje: you might want to talk with RAOF then
[05:05] <RAOF> dupondje: Define ‘last upgrade’.  Also, nvidia binary driver?
[05:05] <dupondje> nope
[05:06] <dupondje> broken Zeitgeist couldn't cause that ?
[05:06] <dupondje> else I upgraded compiz yesterday
[05:07] <RAOF> Oh, yeah.  Jason was reporting that ubuntuone was eating all his CPU.
[05:07] <RAOF> Possibly a similar thing?
[05:07] <dupondje> Yea zeitgeist causes that
[05:07] <dupondje> but that could also cause Gnome3 doesn't start completely ?
[05:10] <dupondje> thats https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/zeitgeist/+bug/807203 btw
[05:16] <dupondje> Any idea's on how I can debug the real cause ? Could be usefull :)
[06:42] <didrocks> good morning
[06:50] <evfool> morning didrocks
[06:50] <didrocks> hey evfool
[07:56] <dholbach> good morning
[08:15] <mvo> cjwatson: the changelog stuff should be fixed now and the backlog it has caught up on now over night
[08:29] <jml> good morning
[08:30] <RAOF> Ra raw!  What's broken? :)
[08:34] <jml> RAOF: M-d in my virtualbox install of Ubuntu
[08:35] <RAOF> Oh.  Again, or still? :)
[08:35] <jml> RAOF: More "still" than "again".
[08:37] <jml> RAOF: am trying out the proprietary alternatives to see if things are better there
[08:37] <RAOF> Ah.
[08:37] <RAOF> It's not unity annoyingly eating the super key?
[08:38] <jml> RAOF: no. At first I thought it was (and I think unity eating super complicates things), but after much xmodmap hackery and also, you know, seeing what happened without unity, I ruled it out.
[08:39] <RAOF> Heh.  It's my great fear that at some point someone will really want me to learn about X keyboard handling in detail.
[08:40] <jml> RAOF: I guess as a fallback I could get used to having meta & super switched around. But that's not the way that technology is supposed to work.
[08:40] <RAOF> Right
[08:45] <cjwatson> maco: I'm pretty sure I fixed the keyboard bug.  I tested my fix and I could no longer reproduce the bug.
[08:45] <cjwatson> mvo: great, thanks a lot
[10:37] <pitti> infinity, lamont: would it be possible to kill the glib build on allspice and gnome-keyring build on yellow? they both eternally hang in the test suite
[10:37] <pitti> (and block amd64 builds)
[10:38] <pitti> the i386 build of keyring on vernadsky has the same problem apparently
[10:59] <pitti> infinity, lamont: bah, today is a good day for a buildd to die :( pygobject on crested is hanging as well, can you please kill, too?
[11:00] <pitti> I understand the latter, and have a fix; for keyring/glib we are currently testing a fix
[11:04] <pitti> elmo: ^ can you kill builds? lamont will probably still sleep for a couple of hours
[11:23] <lamont> pitti: infinity can't
[11:23] <lamont> on it
[11:26] <lamont> pitti: if I'm hearing you correctly, that's glib on allspice, pygobject on crested (how about actinidiaceae??) and gnome-keyring on yellow?
[11:26] <pitti> lamont: actinidiaceae can be killed as well
[11:26] <pitti> lamont: thanks!
[11:27] <pitti> need to disappear for a few hours, bbl
[12:17] <dupondje> All right :) Gnome is working again :)
[12:18] <dupondje> what was broken now ?
[12:24] <dholbach> if somebody could approve my post to u-d-a I'd appreciate it :)
[12:25] <dholbach> supi
[12:30] <cjwatson> dholbach: done
[12:32] <dholbach> cjwatson, thanks muchly
[12:52] <nigelb> james_w: Do you want to talk about packageme for 5 minutes at UDS lightning talks?
[12:52] <james_w> UDS?
[12:53] <nigelb> er, UDW
[12:53] <james_w> not this time I don't think
[12:53] <nigelb> ok, np :)
[12:54] <mterry> apachelogger, looking at the MIR now
[12:59] <jbernard> serge_: no objections here
[13:12] <lool> doko: Not sure whether you saw this, but latest gcc-4.6 has a libgcc1 breaking older gcc-4.4 and 4.5, which seem to need a merge from Debian
[13:13] <doko> lool: yes, seen
[13:18] <abhinav-> dholbach: kudos for bringing the long descriptions to harvest but I think something is wrong with harvest at the moment. can't list bugs in any package
[13:18] <sabdfl> can IRC tell me last-seen, or do i need to ask a bot?>
[13:22] <lool> sabdfl: nickserv might tell you
[13:23] <lool> sabdfl: /m nickserv info sabdfl
[13:23] <sabdfl> thanks lool
[13:41] <serge_> jbernard: thanks, i'll push the pkg
[14:01] <Amoz> dholbach, aha! found ya
[14:15] <Amoz> dholbach, maybe you already know this but harvest isn't showing any opportunities
[14:26] <maco> cjwatson: thanks! that one was scaring me :)
[14:28] <dholbach> Amoz, it's known - I hope we get it fixed soon
[14:28] <dholbach> abhinav-, yes, it's broken - I hope we get it fixed soon
[14:55] <bdmurray> mvo: bug 801059 had a corrupt alternatives file added to it
[15:11] <Amoz> dholbach, cool
[15:31] <jibel> users are reporting non working keyboard and mouse on Oneiric, bug 807306 , bug 807291, bug 807538
[15:31] <jibel> it started today, could someone have a look at it
[15:32] <seb128> jibel: does downgrading the new xorg-server make it work?
[15:32] <seb128> jibel: do you have the issue and can test?
[15:33] <jibel> seb128, no I tried, but can't reproduce with usb keyboard and mouse
[15:33] <seb128> hum
[15:36] <seb128> jibel: would be useful to have a list of the packages they upgraded before getting the update as well?
[15:36] <seb128> update->issue
[15:39] <jibel> seb128, I requested more info and the history log.
[15:40] <seb128> jibel: kenvandine has the issue, he says it's happening on a real box and with startx without lightdm
[15:41] <seb128> cjwatson, did you do an autosync run around the time you did the manual sync round you did yesterday?
[15:42] <cjwatson> no
[15:42] <seb128> cjwatson, I'm trying to figure if -changes has a list of all uploads around that time or not
[15:42] <cjwatson> we're past Debian import freeze, nobody should be doing autosyncs
[15:42] <seb128> ok, so -changes probably has all what changed
[15:42] <cjwatson> it should do, yeah
[15:49] <tgardner> is it a known problem that oneiric x86en chroots cannot be installed on lucid/maverick/natty ?
[15:52] <dholbach> Amoz, abhinav-: fixed
[15:52] <abhinav-> dholbach: cool. thanks :-)
[16:04] <cjwatson> tgardner: the other way round is known.  I hadn't heard of that way round
[16:04] <tgardner> cjwatson, I just tested using an oneiric host. it doesn't work there either
[16:05] <cjwatson> oh, you can't build an oneiric chroot at the moment anyway, the /run transition is incomplete and breaking stuff
[16:05] <cjwatson> mentioned it in the release meeting just now
[16:05] <tgardner> cjwatson, oh, is that the root of my problem ?
[16:05] <cjwatson> could well be
[16:06] <tgardner> I got busy watching the shuttle launch and forgot to pay attention to the release meeting
[16:37] <doko> slangasek: for the eglibc build failure: either you try to build with gcc-4.6, or you wait until gcc-4.5 is uploaded
[16:37] <slangasek> doko: I can wait for gcc-4.5 to be uploaded, certainly
[16:38] <slangasek> doko: should eglibc not be switched to use gcc-multilib, instead of gcc-4.5-multilib?
[16:38]  * doko didn't want to hear this ;p
[16:38] <slangasek> heh
[16:39] <doko> no, a first eglibc build with a new major version should be checked first
[16:39] <slangasek> ok
[16:47] <Laney> can someone please look at sparkleshare in NEW/oneiric? It's been there some time
[16:47] <Laney> (and people are starting to ask me about it)
[17:16] <infinity> Laney: Done.
[17:20] <tkamppeter> pitti, hi
[18:28] <cr3> is there a nice way to check if a package is installed programmatically, to be used in a shell script or a makefile?
[18:28] <cr3> dpkg -l package_name | tail -n 1 | grep '^ii' doesn't seem absolutely reliable
[18:30] <brendand> cr3: is dpgk --get-selections not reliable?
[18:31] <cjwatson> I would go for something involving dpkg-query -W
[18:31] <cjwatson> brendand: it's the wrong question
[18:31] <cjwatson> --get-selections asks for the intended state, not the actual state
[18:34] <cr3> cjwatson: so, if the package is installed, I get two columns, otherwise I get either one column if the package is known or the string "No packages found..." which might be localized. what about dpkg --status?
[18:35] <cjwatson> you can customise the output with the --showformat option - you don't need to parse out columns.  read its man page
[18:35] <cjwatson> dpkg-query will be easier than using dpkg --status and parsing the output
[18:35] <cr3> cjwatson: awesome, I will have a closer look. thanks!
[18:35] <cjwatson> the string "No packages found ..." goes to stderr, not stdout
[18:35] <cjwatson> 2>/dev/null and only look at stdout
[18:36] <cr3> dpkg-query -W -f='${Status}' and what you said about stderr, I should be set
[18:38] <cjwatson> ${Status} is a bit fiddly because it has both desired state and actual state; I think I'd go for ${Version} being non-empty
[18:38] <cjwatson> hm, maybe not, that fails on packages that are removed but still have config files present
[18:39] <cjwatson> I guess ${Status} is the best you've got
[18:44] <cr3> success: ifeq "$(shell dpkg-query -W -f='$${Status}' $package 2>/dev/null)" "install ok installed"
[19:07] <bambee> any idea about this strange behaviour http://paste.ubuntu.com/640306/ ?
[19:09] <penguin42> echo $PATH
[19:18] <bambee> penguin42: already done, http://paste.ubuntu.com/640313/ <-- /usr/bin is there
[19:21] <bambee> apparently the symlink is dead
[19:22] <bambee> and not correct http://paste.ubuntu.com/640316/ (I am an amd64)
[19:40] <slangasek> Keybuk: hey there
[19:42] <slangasek> Keybuk: it looks like the base-files /run migration is incomplete compared to the Debian approach; /var/run isn't provided as a symlink.  Is this deliberate for any reason, or can I patch up base-files to do the same as in Debian?
[19:44] <ion> Any major breakage in oneiric? Thinking of upgrading my laptop from natty.
[19:45] <slangasek> I'm sure there is some, though I'm typing this from it and have no specific complaints :)
[19:45] <slangasek> well, that's not true, I have many specific complaints but none that rise to the level of "major breakage"
[19:46] <slangasek> or even "I've gotten around to filing a bug" ;)
[19:49] <bdmurray> slangasek: I just uploaded a base-files debdiff to fix another issue
[19:51] <bdmurray> slangasek: and when I say uploaded I mean added to bug 744253
[20:04] <Keybuk> slangasek: umm, what base-files /run ?
[20:04] <slangasek> Keybuk: the one uploaded to Ubuntu yesterday with your name in the changelog? :)
[20:06] <bdmurray> @pilot in
[20:06] <slangasek> bdmurray: do you think that change is required if we get the website fixed (which it ought to be, given that this URL is in existing releases)?
[20:07] <bdmurray> slangasek: yes, I think it is still a nice addition
[20:07] <slangasek> fair enough
[20:07] <bdmurray> slangasek: however I don't recall what used to be at the original url
[20:08] <Keybuk> slangasek: I didn't upload anything
[20:08] <Keybuk> in fact, I'm pretty damned sure I still can't upload
[20:08] <micahg> slangasek: barry uploaded that
[20:08] <slangasek> oh
[20:08] <Keybuk> due to the whole Launchpad hates my GPG key issue
[20:09] <slangasek> why did barry put your name on it? :)
[20:09] <slangasek> I saw the bzr log listed him, but thought that was some manual archive/UDD reconciliation
[20:09] <bdmurray> didn't he say something about it in his pilot report?
[20:09]  * slangasek looks
[20:10] <stgraber> http://tinyurl.com/622frtw
[20:10] <Keybuk> I don't know, I'm not barry ;-)
[20:10] <stgraber> - merged base-files patch to resync archive with sjr's working branch. archive and udd branch should now be in sync.
[20:10] <slangasek> Keybuk: so in conclusion, I should do whatever I think is right? :)
[20:10] <stgraber> (from barry's e-mail to ubuntu-devel)
[20:10] <slangasek> stgraber: yep
[20:11] <Keybuk> slangasek: I think in general that is a good plan for life
[20:11] <slangasek> heh
[20:11] <Keybuk> for you, especially
[20:11] <stgraber> I remember that last time we talked about it in #ubuntu-devel, the discussion was that the changes barry uploaded were done before Debian started migrating to /run and that now that we're late for that change we should merge whatever they did
[20:15] <micahg> Keybuk: BTW, you could create a throwaway key just for uploading
[20:16] <slangasek> stgraber: yeah, that seems approximately correct
[20:16] <Keybuk> micahg: I'd have to install gpg on my Mac then ;-)
[20:16] <micahg> heh
[20:21] <Keybuk> natty really doesn't like VMs :-(
[20:25] <micahg> Keybuk: unity-2d works with one of the kvm drivers
[20:25] <Keybuk> micahg: all I see is an old-style gnome desktop with half the bits missing or not working
[20:26] <micahg> oh right,, classic was fallback
[20:26] <micahg> well, if you want unity, unity-2d it might work
[20:27]  * highvoltage wants to see what goes wrong in gnome 3 fallback this weekend. it works fine in debian
[20:35] <Sarvatt> ion: lots of people reporting no mouse/keyboard after the post alpha-2 updates, might be something to watch out for
[20:38] <ion> sarvatt: Thanks. https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xorg/+bug/807306 apparently
[20:38] <ion> Oh, that’s about a VM.
[20:38] <Sarvatt> yep indeed, people are hitting in on real installs too though
[20:39] <Keybuk> micahg: tbh, I just wanted something vaguely usable for doing Ubuntu work on
[20:40] <ion> Sounds like something i might be able to debug.
[20:40] <ion> “After this operation, 8,765 MB disk space will be freed.” (Deleting a bunch of games i meant to try out but haven’t got around to. :-P)
[20:41] <ion> A.k.a. spring cleaning before release upgrade.
[20:43] <bdmurray> slangasek: speaking of base-files bug 285734 is rather interesting too
[20:43] <bdmurray> I'm particularly worried about that guy's sister
[20:43] <bdmurray> "OMIgawds!"
[20:45] <slangasek> bdmurray: who presses Ctrl+Alt+F1 by accident? :)
[20:45] <ScottK> People like that aren't rare.
[20:45] <ScottK> The same ones that hit Ctel+Alt+Backspace
[20:46] <ScottK> Apparently it was a lot.
[20:46] <bdmurray> slangasek: I seem to recall mpt mentioning it in a presentation at UDS
[20:47] <slangasek> hmm
[20:48] <slangasek> well, at the moment I'm trying to unbreak debootstrap... I don't think I'm in the right headspace to properly consider edits to /etc/issue
[20:49] <infinity> I'm as puzzled as others by the idea that you can ctrl-alt-f1 by accident.
[20:49]  * tumbleweed used to press ctrl+alt+backspace quite a lot when I was using ctrl+alt to change workspaces
[20:50] <infinity> You could also end up with people, upon crashing their DM (okay, rare, but probably less rare than accidental ctrl-alt-f1) then wondering why the "text-mode's" instructions are a lie.
[20:52] <slangasek> crashing the dm is supposed to launch the failsafe X interface
[20:53] <slangasek> though I see now that /etc/init/failsafe-x.conf only handles gdm, not lightdm, hah
[21:02] <Sarvatt> slangasek: it's trying to exec /etc/gdm/failsafeXServer which doesn't exist too
[21:02] <infinity> slangasek: I like the theory and all, but there are still times when X is just so hideously hosed that you're ultimately going to end up at a terminal.  Or calling tech support.
[21:03] <Sarvatt> looks like that's now in xdiagnose installed to /usr/share/xdiagnose/failsafeXServer
[21:03] <slangasek> Sarvatt: ugh
[21:03] <bryceh> lightdm doesn't call it anyway
[21:03] <infinity> slangasek: I dunno.  I have no real objections to handholding in issue and motd, I just have old skool UNIX user grumpiness about issue being needlessly verbose, I suspect. ;)
[21:04] <bryceh> slangasek, lightdm just exits to console right now if X terminates during startup
[21:05] <infinity> slangasek: And one could keep it the same classic UNIX terseness with something like: "Ubuntu 10.04.2 LTS \n \l (Alt-F7 to return to GUI)"
[21:06] <infinity> slangasek: (And of course, even that's a blatant lie if you don't actually have X and/or something graphical on VT7)
[21:06] <bryceh> or if it is on vt8
[21:06] <infinity> Yeah, or that.
[21:07] <bryceh> pidof /usr/bin/X would give you whether X is running
[21:07] <bryceh> ps a | grep X shows it on tty7, so seems like would be straightforward to figure out where it is too
[21:08] <infinity> Yeah, but /etc/issue is just a text file.
[21:08] <broder> ConsoleKit also knows
[21:08] <infinity> So, this goes from a wishlist "update a text file" bug to something nasty involving hacking getty.
[21:09] <infinity> Which still doesn't work, since getty outputs to terminals when it spawns, not when you switch to them. :P
[21:09] <broder> infinity: one option would be something along the lines of "press enter to switch back to your session" or whatever
[21:09] <broder> instead of outputting a specific tty to switch to
[21:11] <infinity> You'd have to find a key sequence to trap that doesn't break the brains of every console user in the world.
[21:11] <infinity> (for instance, the first thing I do when I connect a serial terminal is hammer enter a few times to get a prompt)
[21:12] <infinity> Though, obviously, our slightly-odd getty codepath would only be running on VTs.
[21:12] <infinity> I dunno.  I think we've just proven the bug's a bit deeper than a text file addition, regardless.
[21:12] <bryceh> finally, a use for CAPSLOCK
[21:13] <broder> sure, i do the same with enter. the potentially simpler solution would be to just use enter anyway, but include in the "please press enter" printout instructions on how to disable that behavior
[21:13] <infinity> "To return to your graphical session, hit left, right, left, right, up, down, A, B, CAPS"
[21:13] <james_w> just make changing VT a sysreq combo
[21:13] <bryceh> if no user is logged in and it's just a login prompt, there's probably a set of keys which  have no purpose which could be used.  E.g. Home or Esc maybe
[21:14] <infinity> james_w: And how long until people complain that they can hit sysrq by accident?
[21:14] <infinity> james_w: Seems about as likely as ctrl-alt-f1, to be fair.
[21:14] <slangasek> not only is /etc/issue just a text file, it's output to the console in parallel to X startup
[21:14] <slangasek> right, infinity said that already
[21:14] <infinity> slangasek: Before, generally.
[21:14] <james_w> infinity, that's what was done for ctrl-alt-backspace
[21:14] <james_w> I haven't heard complaints
[21:14] <bryceh> I have ;-)
[21:14] <james_w> it was only a semi-serious suggestion anyway
[21:15] <infinity> james_w: I switch terminals a lot more than I need to kill X.
[21:15] <james_w> heh
[21:15] <james_w> complaints from people others that X developers :-)
[21:15] <infinity> (And, sometimes I switch terminals TO kill X, since ctrl-alt-bkspc no longer works out of the box)
[21:15] <bryceh> ;-)
[21:15] <slangasek> infinity: usually after :)
[21:16] <slangasek> infinity: we try to bring the X server up ASAP; we wait until rc is done before spawning getties
[21:16] <infinity> slangasek: Oh, right.  Start on stopped rc, I forgot about that change.
[21:16] <slangasek> at least for tty1
[21:16] <bryceh> c-a-b angst recently spotted @ http://linuxlock.blogspot.com/2011/06/canonical-alienates-their-major-asset.html
[21:16] <infinity> slangasek: Stil, close enough to parallel to not really allow you to do silly things like this.
[21:17] <infinity> bryceh: I can't be bothered to read to article, but I love that the URI implies that our "major asset" is people who like to kill X servers.
[21:17] <infinity> s/read to/read the/
[21:18] <infinity> Besides, if he wants the old functionality back, all he has to do is install unity.
[21:18] <infinity> It's less predictable, but just as reliable.
[21:18] <bryceh> infinity, 'The first threads came apart when decisions were made to remove certain keyboard shortcuts, "for the good of the new user".  Ctrl/alt/delete and ctrl/alt/backspace were removed.'
[21:19] <infinity> Ctrl-Alt-Del isn't removed...
[21:20] <bryceh> plus it was upstream that removed the shortcut.  But why spoil a rant with messy facts.
[21:20] <infinity> That sort of proves his Ubuntu = Linux side-rant.
[21:20] <micahg> bryceh: it's in the comments
[21:20] <bryceh> micahg, yep
[21:21] <slangasek> ah, this is the HeliOS guy
[21:25] <bryceh> but in terms of actual ubuntu users, james_w is right, we haven't gotten bug reports about it.  Seems a total non-issue with our users.
[21:25] <james_w> I was commenting more about the lack of complaints that sysreq was too easy to hit
[21:25] <james_w> I realise that there were complaints about taking away ctrl-alt-backspace
[21:25] <bryceh> james_w, ah, also true
[21:25] <infinity> james_w: I'll file a bug.
[21:26] <james_w> or rather hiding it in the keyboard configuration
[21:26] <infinity> james_w: My 1 Sysrq bug will match the 1 Ctrl-Alt-F1 bug, and we can have a showdown. ;)
[21:26] <slangasek> bryceh: I don't think bug reports is an accurate measure of whether people are bothered by the Ctrl+Alt+BkSp change
[21:26] <maco> bryceh: did the dude JUST realise c-a-b is non-default *now*?
[21:27] <slangasek> I expect people who use Ctrl+Alt+BkSp to also be more likely to research issues before filing new bug reports
[21:27] <bryceh> maco, I assume he's been holding it in until now ;-)
[21:28] <bryceh> slangasek, I like the world you live in, with sane bug reporters, can I join?  :-)
[21:29] <slangasek> bryceh: well see, that just goes to show that the people you're getting bug reports aren't the ones who use c-a-b! :)
[21:29] <infinity> bryceh: It's easy, you just filter your bugmail and only read incoming mail from the 4 people you like.
[21:29] <bryceh> anyway, from what I understand of how c-a-b works, it likely isn't going to give the relief that it used to, since the freezy bits have moved from X to the kernel, and c-a-b won't help there
[21:31] <bryceh> it will help if a client goes seriously out of control and locks up X that way, but that seems to be thankfully rare in practice
[21:48] <bdmurray> slangasek: I seem to recall a guideline for patch numbering like 33-zyx.patch
[21:48] <bdmurray> slangasek: is there one?
[21:49] <infinity> bdmurray: Patch numbering made more sense with systems like simple-patchsys where they were applied in filesystem order.
[21:50] <infinity> bdmurray: But some large/complex source packages still like to codify meaning in numbers (like 000->500 = to/from upstream, 900+ = local only, never being forwarded, etc)
[21:51] <infinity> bdmurray: With people (in some cases, slowly) moving to source-format 3.0 and quilt, though, the filesystem ordering is meaningless, and even the coded meaning is only marginally useful, since they're all meant to have headers that don't suck.
[21:52] <bdmurray> ah okay thanks
[21:56] <slangasek> yeah, I don't know of any guideline for patch numbering
[21:57] <slangasek> there's a guideline for headers within the patches
[21:58] <infinity> Does dpkg-dev, devtools, or quilt, have a utility to list patches with consice header info?  I haven't looked.
[21:58] <infinity> concise too.
[21:59] <infinity> devscripts, even.  It's clearly Friday afternoon.
[22:12] <bdrung_> infinity: it's Saturday. :p
[22:36] <micahg> bdrung_: the debian package doesn't include the entire multiarch diff as specified in the 1.4.6-5 changelog, is that not a problem?
[22:37] <micahg> bdrung_: sorry, libgcrypt11 ^^
[22:38] <bdrung_> micahg: multiarching it was done differently
[22:38] <bdrung_> micahg: the result should be the same
[22:51] <bdmurray> @pilot out