[00:00] <StevenR> :)
[00:01] <truepurple> OMG, I am struggling with the simpliest thing, moving the terminal prompt to the "downloads" directory.
[00:01] <StevenR> truepurple: cd ~/Downloads ?
[00:01] <truepurple> It says it knows of no such file or directory
[00:02] <truepurple> oh wait
[00:02] <truepurple> I didn't use a ~
[00:02] <StevenR> truepurple: ~ is shorthand for "My Home Directory"
[00:03] <StevenR> or you can use things like ~someotheruser to go to their homedir (if you have permissions to do so, like managing a fileserver for lots of users)
[00:03] <truepurple> So if @myubuntu:~$ is home, then what is a@myubuntu:/home$ ?
[00:03] <StevenR>  /home is (usually) where everybody's homedirs live
[00:04] <truepurple> That doesn't seem to answer my question
[00:05] <StevenR> well you've pasted two prompt strings
[00:05] <truepurple> Yes
[00:06] <StevenR> one shows the current location as ~ or "My Homedir", the other shows the location as /home (Your homedir will be /home/yourusername
[00:07] <StevenR> so you'd also have say, /home/mycat where all your cat's files are stored, which could also be referenced as ~mycat or by your cat as ~   ... yes, in this example, you own a cat that can use a computer :)
[00:07] <truepurple> So home is different from "my home directory"
[00:07] <holstein> using tab to auto complete the path can help you ensure that you are navigating to something that is there, and not doing any typos
[00:08] <StevenR> truepurple: yes, /home is where everybody's homedirs live
[00:08] <StevenR> so, /home/user1, /home/user2, etc, etc
[00:08] <holstein> truepurple: its probably as simple as Downloads in stead of downloads
[00:10] <truepurple> It was the absense of the ~ actually
[00:10] <truepurple> I so miss the simplicity of windows root directory and folder system sometimes
[00:11] <truepurple> linux's folder system seems a mite unnecessarily complex
[00:11] <holstein> yeah, root all the time
[00:12] <holstein> the negatives far outweigh the positives for me though
[00:12] <holstein> and i like how nothing is hiding from me in linux
[00:12] <holstein> it might not be plain english, but its a language that i have access to learn if i choose to
[00:12] <truepurple> When I install a linux program, it always seems to decide where to install, and where to put its link in menu for me, how can I take that power back?
[00:13] <holstein> truepurple: you dont really want to i think
[00:13] <holstein> part of the 'magic' is the package management
[00:13] <truepurple> At least in windows, many install programs will let you decide such things
[00:13] <holstein> its mostly self maintaining
[00:13] <holstein> you can do it literally however you want
[00:14] <truepurple> If it puts the programs and links in folders in a patter that makes more sense to me, it will be easier for me to find them latter
[00:14] <truepurple> *pattern
[00:14] <truepurple> Why would it be a good thing for me to lose that selection?
[00:14] <holstein> why do you need to find them though?
[00:14] <holstein> i try and let apt deal with it whenever possible
[00:14] <truepurple> Say, if I want to start the program, or if I want to copy and paste a save file
[00:15] <holstein> a save file?
[00:15] <holstein> those are all in your /home
[00:15] <truepurple> There are different subfolders within your home directory
[00:15] <holstein> right
[00:16] <truepurple> Why can't I choose which one different things go to?
[00:16] <holstein> and hidden config directories
[00:16] <holstein> truepurple: its linux, you always can choose
[00:16] <truepurple> And why can't I choose which menu to go down under apps or whatever, to start a program?
[00:16] <holstein> but, going outside of what the system expects, as far as defaults, could prove to be more trouble than its worth
[00:16] <holstein> truepurple: you can
[00:16] <truepurple> No, its linux, it never lets me pick
[00:16] <holstein> its linux
[00:17] <holstein> truepurple: pick?
[00:17] <truepurple> choose
[00:17] <truepurple> pick=choose
[00:17] <holstein> by using synaptic or whatever, you are choosing
[00:17] <holstein> thats what happens when you apt-get that app
[00:17] <holstein> you can change that behavior
[00:17] <holstein> edit it afterwards
[00:17] <truepurple> Synaptic just installs it, doesn't let me choose the wheres
[00:17] <truepurple> how??
[00:18] <holstein> truepurple: its package management, thats implicit in the action of installing that way
[00:18] <truepurple> Huh?
[00:18] <holstein> truepurple: i just use apt, and am quite happy with the menu placement, but when i want to customize that, i use the menu editor in gnome
[00:19] <truepurple> So where is the menu editor? And how can I choose when I originally install?
[00:19] <truepurple> AFK a moment
[00:19] <holstein> truepurple: you can just build what you want from scratch, or compile it yourself
[00:20] <holstein> that will get you whatever result you want
[00:20] <truepurple> build?
[00:20] <truepurple> I'm no programmer
[00:20] <holstein> truepurple: thats what we are taking advantage of using apt or whatever
[00:20] <holstein> someone else has done the work for us
[00:21] <holstein> and we install it, and it does whatever its built to do, as far as menu and whatever else
[00:21] <holstein> you can always make your own packages, or build from scratch
[00:21] <holstein> but, that negates (for me) what i like to take advantage of with package management
[00:22] <truepurple> So its either use the installer, or make your own? What a inferior method to what windows does
[00:22] <holstein> truepurple: ?
[00:22] <holstein> its very similar then
[00:22] <holstein> you go and make an installer, like an .exe
[00:22] <truepurple> Windows programs don't require you to build your own damn installer, but do allow you to choose download location and menu location
[00:22] <holstein> and you are responsible for it
[00:22] <holstein> truepurple: someone has built those windows applications
[00:23] <truepurple> Linux installers should ask you where you want these things too
[00:23] <truepurple> Yeah so?
[00:23] <StevenR> truepurple: hundreds of people have spent many hours packaging literally thousands of pieces of software for ubuntu, all available on demand to you :)
[00:23] <holstein> and you arent required to build them in linux, you can take advantage of whats already build
[00:23] <holstein> truepurple: i dont want them to ask me
[00:23] <holstein> and others dont either
[00:23] <StevenR> truepurple: why do you need to pick where the bits of the package live, so long as you can launch them?
[00:23] <truepurple> If you need to get into the program, and sometimes you do
[00:24] <holstein> there are rules in place for where menu icons go. its quite an elegant process really
[00:24] <holstein> truepurple: you still can get in there, you just need to learn where the files are
[00:24] <truepurple> Whats wrong with it asking? Like a windows screen, if you want default, you just go past that
[00:24] <StevenR> truepurple: can you give an example? (There are a ton of "find" type tools anyway :) )
[00:25] <holstein> truepurple: it doesnt need to... i dont want to be asked... when i install firefox, it goes to the internet menu item
[00:25] <StevenR> truepurple: because it doesn't need to ask. Things go in standard places.
[00:25] <holstein> yeah, they are standard to linux systems, and protocols that are in place
[00:26] <StevenR> truepurple: all the config files are in /etc, log files in /var/log. It works out really well :)
[00:26] <holstein> truepurple: it sounds like you are saying 'why isnt ubuntu windows?' and its just not
[00:27] <truepurple> StevenR: An example of what exactly?
[00:27] <holstein> example?
[00:27] <StevenR> truepurple: "if you need to get into the program" ... an example of that... why would I? What would I need to do?
[00:28] <holstein> if i did need to get in there, i can, and i can always make my own custom version of whatever i want, and im actually encouraged to do so
[00:28] <holstein> nothing is hiding anywhere
[00:29] <truepurple> Well heres a example, one AV program wanted to be under applications> system tools, and another wanted to be under applications> accessories Now maybe I can change this after the fact, but I really should have been allows to choose where they were in the first place
[00:29] <holstein> truepurple: thats just the menu though... thats really not a big deal at all
[00:29] <truepurple> When are more options, a bad thing? Those that don't want to use those options, need not do so
[00:29] <truepurple> It is a big deal to me
[00:29] <truepurple> It means trouble finding the app when I want to use it
[00:30] <holstein> truepurple: you can easily edit that
[00:30] <truepurple> It should allow me to choose in the first place
[00:30] <StevenR> but *why* ?
[00:30] <holstein> truepurple: you can always file a bug report on anything
[00:30] <truepurple> Because its better for the users
[00:30] <StevenR> truepurple: ok, how is it better?
[00:30] <truepurple> More options are always a good thing, especially with something like how things are organized
[00:31] <holstein> truepurple: its not better for me though, because i prefer it as-is, and the fact of the matter is, we can both customize
[00:31] <truepurple> Its like this, if you moved into a apartment, even if the apartment did provide the movers, would you want them to decide where everything is placed?
[00:31] <StevenR> truepurple: no, they aren't always a good thing. OK, You've bought a server from my work. Do you want proftpd or vsftpd?
[00:32] <holstein> truepurple: right, but you can build your own apartment, this place is ubuntu's place
[00:32] <truepurple> Its your space, just like menu layout is part of the GUI interfact on your own PC that is your own space
[00:32] <truepurple> No, on my PC, it is my space
[00:32] <holstein> truepurple: and its fully customizable
[00:32] <holstein> truepurple: right, but you have chosen ubuntu as a base
[00:32] <truepurple> Should let you choose from the start, rather then forcing you to clean up after its messes
[00:32] <holstein> there are certain defaults associated with that
[00:33] <StevenR> truepurple: but you can change all of that. ALL of it. You can build your own package that puts the menu item in the COOKIEMONSTER folder on the programs menu if you want.
[00:33] <holstein> you can build your own purplebuntu that does all of that, and share it with others
[00:33] <holstein> and link it here :)
[00:33] <truepurple> I don't know how to make packages, and even if I did, I shouldn't have to go through all that work, just to be able to decide where it puts the damn shortcuts
[00:34] <holstein> truepurple: windows doesnt ask that either, not about the menu
[00:34] <truepurple> I mean that sounds like more work then moving the links after the fact
[00:34] <holstein> theres not even what i consider proper sub menus
[00:34] <holstein> its just a big list
[00:34] <truepurple> Yes it does, well depends on the program, many do though
[00:34] <holstein> but, thats just my opinion
[00:34] <holstein> truepurple: nope, just the install location
[00:34] <holstein> not the menu
[00:35] <StevenR> truepurple: those choices are designed to work out of the box and be simple to get people up and running. If you feel a particualr package has got it wrong, file a bug for that packae. It's not a perfect universe.
[00:35] <truepurple> And menu locations too with at least some
[00:35] <holstein> truepurple: ive never seen it, i havent used windows much since XP, but what i just tested the other day in win7 (todo backup) didnt ask
[00:35] <truepurple> One could allow people to choose where it installes, and have it no less simple
[00:35] <holstein> truepurple: you can allow that for yourself and others if you want
[00:36] <truepurple> Some have for me holstian
[00:36] <holstein> if you want ubuntu to do that, you'll need to file a bug report, and follow up
[00:36] <StevenR> truepurple: you've added a layer of complexity that most people don't care about. Most packages get it right (as far as I can see).
[00:36] <holstein> get it marked wish-list
[00:36] <truepurple> Where do you go for that?
[00:37] <truepurple> One simple thing ubuntu and probably others need, is to have windows url links working by default
[00:37] <holstein> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ReportingBugs
[00:37] <truepurple> Especially since the code for it is so simple
[00:37] <StevenR> truepurple: "windows url links" ?
[00:37] <StevenR> huh?
[00:37] <truepurple> Links to webpages made under windows
[00:37]  * holstein doesnt follow
[00:38] <holstein> webpages made under windows?
[00:38] <StevenR> you mean .lnk files?
[00:38] <truepurple> If you pull the icon next to a URL to a desktop or folder it creates a link to a webpage, when you do this under windows, those links don't work by default under ubuntu
[00:38] <StevenR> truepurple: well, file a bug report.
[00:39] <truepurple> Suggestions go under bug reports too?
[00:39] <holstein> yeah, i didnt know about that one
[00:39] <StevenR> truepurple: provide a patch, or maybe an algorhythm on how to do it?
[00:39] <StevenR> truepurple: yeah, wish-list or similar category probably.
[00:39] <truepurple> Well someone else gave me the code and instructions (and I dont know if I still have the instructions, but I am sure they can figure it out)
[00:39] <holstein> most folks find it easier to just make their own spin
[00:40] <truepurple> spin?
[00:40] <holstein> truepurple: you and i or anyone can take ubuntu and change it or whatever
[00:40] <holstein> we have access to all the resources freely
[00:40] <truepurple> There is already enough distros
[00:40] <StevenR> truepurple: the more help you can give, the more likely you are to get the outcome you want. (with the bug report on links)
[00:41] <truepurple> And theres that weird thing where programs arent available to all distros, even though I thought any linux program could work on any linux distro
[00:41] <holstein> you can always build it
[00:41] <holstein> well, assuming the creator gives you what you need i suppose
[00:41] <StevenR> truepurple: that just means that a program hasn't been packaged for that distro.
[00:41] <truepurple> Hell, I still don't even know what you mean by "build it" and I doubt I could, whatever it means
[00:42] <holstein> truepurple: its linux, the answer is always yes :)
[00:42] <holstein> doesnt mean its easy though...
[00:44] <holstein> StevenR: you have guest os's hosted via ssh with virt-manager?
[00:45] <StevenR> holstein: could you precise your question please?
[00:46] <holstein> maybe... im wondering if you have the guest hosted elsewhere and connect to if via ssh ?
[00:46] <StevenR> I run virt-manager over ssh (either with ssh -X or using virt-manager's builtin ssh-hook) and I access the guests via ssh (mostly, some are desktop test machines and similar)
[00:47] <StevenR> holstein: I have a box with 16GB of RAM, though I rarely sit in front of it. It's also my "TV" (using mythtv and a couple of DVB usb sticks)
[00:48] <holstein> i'll have to see if i can get my mind around it... virtualbox is very GUI easy, but i think i might like some of that functionality
[01:19] <thewrath> hey all
[01:19] <thewrath> when is the next meeting
[01:26] <thewrath> hey stlsaint
[01:28] <stlsaint> thewrath: sup man
[01:28] <thewrath> nothing much
[01:29] <stlsaint> thewrath: you see now backtrack iso released?
[01:29] <stlsaint> im way behind on it already
[01:29] <thewrath> new backtrack?
[01:29] <thewrath> is it 4?
[01:30] <stlsaint> nope 5
[01:30] <stlsaint> and it looks flipping awesome
[01:30] <thewrath> oh ok
[01:30] <thewrath> wow really
[01:31] <stlsaint> yep, they released a kde version this go around
[01:31] <stlsaint> thewrath: after i take the pen-tester course maybe i can try and circumvent that honeypot you got all setup ;)
[01:31] <thewrath> lol
[01:31] <thewrath> I have not set it up yet
[01:32] <thewrath> I was talking with bodhi and he said use honeyd on fedora
[01:32] <stlsaint> aye, well hopefully sometime next year after i get back from kuwait and take course
[01:32] <thewrath> ok
[01:32] <thewrath> what course?
[01:32] <stlsaint> thewrath: yes fedora is extremely app rich as i am starting to see
[01:32] <stlsaint> especially with virtualization and security
[01:32] <thewrath> well fedora is red hat beta as i like it call it
[01:33] <stlsaint> thewrath: the offensive security course for backtrack
[01:33] <thewrath> nice
[01:33] <stlsaint> im actually mad at a few of the default configs in fedora, particualry with yum that even upstream doesnt do
[01:33] <stlsaint> but thats for another time, gotta go man, bbiab (about an hour)
[01:33] <thewrath> upstream?
[01:33] <stlsaint> red hat
[01:33] <thewrath> ok
[09:46] <HAWK_> is this where i can ask a question?
[11:44] <Mohan_chml> o/ philinux
[11:57] <philinux> 0/
[11:59] <Mohan_chml> how is life philinux ?
[12:03] <philinux> Mohan_chml: good yeah. Just checking emails etc etc
[12:03] <Mohan_chml> kewl!
[13:24] <HAWK_> hello
[13:31] <RiggsFolly> Hi, I am new to all forms of *nix. I have just installed Ubuntu 11.04 and am looking for some doc on "Users and Groups". When I look at ubuntu.com the screen shots dont match the ones I get on my installation? Have I got the wrong desktop manager running, or have things changed since the doc was last maintained?
[13:32] <RiggsFolly> Also I cannot find a description of the groups that already exists which the Group Manager! Can somebody point me to some good docs.
[14:35] <holstein> RiggsFolly: hey
[14:36] <holstein> im going to assume you have 11.04 installed
[14:36] <holstein> 11.04 used the unity desktop, and *if* you dont have 3d support on with your graphics hardware, you will be defaulted to gnome
[14:37] <holstein> thats why the screenshots would look different than what you see
[14:38] <holstein> for the user information, what are you trying to do?
[15:17] <tyr> hi, i know this might be a silly question, but how do you address a user so that he will see my message highlighted red?
[15:17] <holstein> tyr: like that <<
[15:17] <tyr> yes, like that
[15:18] <holstein> i just used your nick
[15:18] <holstein> you can use tab to complete the nick
[15:18] <holstein> type hol and hit tab
[15:18] <tyr> holstein, test
[15:18] <coalwater> holstein, hi :D
[15:18] <coalwater> lol
[15:18] <tyr> ok, thanks
[15:18] <holstein> if you type h and hit tab a bunch, you'll scroll through the h's
[15:18] <holstein> coalwater: o/ :)
[15:19] <coalwater> btw, holstein  who should i talk to if i want to get a cloak
[15:19] <holstein> coalwater: i got mine in #freenode
[15:20] <holstein> the free unafilliated one
[15:20] <coalwater> u just go there and ask anyone?
[15:20] <holstein> they gave me one for me and my bot :)
[15:20] <holstein> coalwater: yeah, if its not busy, an op should be able to hook you up really quick
[15:21] <holstein> i wouldnt ping an op though... i would just try later if no one responds
[15:22] <holstein> coalwater: you can also donate and get a cloak
[15:22] <coalwater> lol of course i can :D
[15:22] <holstein> http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#cloaks
[15:22] <coalwater> bet they wont mind a donation , but i can use some donations my self, so no i could stick with ugly free ones :D lol
[15:29] <RiggsFolly> holstein: Sorry, the Mother in law called and needed a bit of remote support.
[15:31] <RiggsFolly> holstein: I do have 11.04 installed and I guess the graphics card issue could be the case as its a fairly old PC i am using.
[15:35] <holstein> RiggsFolly: theres a 2d version of unity if you are interested, and cant get 3d support for your card
[15:35] <RiggsFolly> holstein: Just checked and yes I have Gnome running
[15:36] <coalwater> holstein, got it :D
[15:38] <RiggsFolly> holstein: I can live without unity for now.
[15:38] <coalwater> RiggsFolly, sometimes installing drivers does the trick
[15:38] <RiggsFolly> holstein: RE: User and Group info. I see there are a set of GROUPS defined in group manager but I dont know what any of them mean. Especially confused about adm and admin??
[15:39] <RiggsFolly> holdsein: I can guess most of them but some documentation would be nice!
[15:40] <RiggsFolly> coolwater: Ok thanks. I will have to find out how to get drivers, once I work out what graphics card is in this mechine.
[15:41] <coalwater> if ur on classic gnome u should have administrator > additional drivers, try there
[15:41] <coalwater> administration* i think
[15:41] <RiggsFolly> coolwater: Currently has an nvidia driver runnning
[15:41] <RiggsFolly> GFORCE 6200
[15:41] <RiggsFolly> I will have to check what that is capable of!!
[15:42] <RiggsFolly> Does UBUNTU keep a hardware compatibility list somewhere
[15:44] <holstein> RiggsFolly: we have extensive wikis, but i suggest getting a question in mind, and going from there
[15:44] <holstein> the only reason im aware of user groups is for audio work
[15:44] <holstein> i run sudo adduser holstein audio
[15:45] <holstein> that adds my user to the audio group which gives that user rights to use the sound device
[15:45] <holstein> otherwise, when i run JACK, i need to run JACK as root, and all the other audio apps as root
[15:45] <holstein> and you generally want to be careful what you are running as root and why
[15:46] <holstein> RiggsFolly: if its just a general 'whats this button do?' kind of question, i say, dont push that button, and take it slow
[15:46] <holstein> and i think you'll get the hang of it as you go
[15:47] <holstein> and as always, any specific questions you have, feel free to ask here
[15:47] <RiggsFolly> well i guess i am being picky. I am an old techy and I like to understand what I am up to. Ignorance is not so much bliss as dangerous in my experience
[15:47] <holstein> heres a very little information on adding users and groups
[15:47] <holstein> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AddUsersHowto
[15:48] <holstein> RiggsFolly: its all about permissions really
[15:48] <charlie-tca> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDeveloperWeek Day 2 starting in 12 minutes in #ubuntu-classroom
[15:48] <RiggsFolly> yea thats what I was talking about when I said my windows look different to the ones in the graphics i.e the content is layed out differently
[15:49] <holstein> RiggsFolly: gnome is quite different than unity
[15:50] <holstein> if you have no frame of reference, you probably wont care much, or miss something that unity has
[15:50] <RiggsFolly> wow, i guess all this flexibility is great when you have a handle on what you are doing. Right now it just seems to make things even more complicated for me the beginner
[15:51] <holstein> RiggsFolly: i can identify with that
[15:51] <holstein> i moved my recording studio over to linux not too long ago
[15:51] <RiggsFolly> And that doc does not mention anything about the "groups" and what rights they impart to a user when a user is placed i one of them
[15:52] <holstein> the options are daunting at first, but its literally as close as i feel i cant get to a 'your imagination is your only limit' system
[15:52] <holstein> RiggsFolly: think of it this way
[15:52] <holstein> you and i are going to make that document
[15:52] <holstein> for one thing, some apps you install make groups
[15:53] <holstein> SO, we have some users with different groups than others
[15:53] <holstein> and all of the groups are going to have different permissions based on what they are and what they do
[15:53] <holstein> and also, how the user may or may not customize those permission
[15:53] <holstein> RiggsFolly: some of them are obvious
[15:53] <holstein> like the one im familiar with... audio
[15:54] <holstein> the audio groups has permission to use the audio devices
[15:54] <holstein> root would have those permissions, and now my user does
[15:54] <RiggsFolly> holstein: correct some of them are. Or is that just a dangerous assumption
[15:54] <holstein> why would i not want that out of the box?
[15:54] <holstein> security
[15:55] <holstein> it becomes more obvious with some of the disk groups
[15:55] <holstein> i also add myself to the firewire group, this means if something malicious was happening on a firewire network device
[15:56] <holstein> that something malicious *could* have root access
[15:56] <RiggsFolly> holstein: I understand the concept of group based security, I have been in tech support ( not unix ) for many years.
[15:57] <RiggsFolly> What I am asking is: Is there a doc somewhere that describes what rights/privilages are imparted to a user for each of the groups in that GROUP list.
[15:58] <holstein> RiggsFolly: right, but how would that doc look?
[15:58] <holstein> im saying, if you and i want to make that doc, these are some of the issues we would face trying to make that doc
[15:59] <holstein> the groups list is *not* necessarily static
[15:59] <raju> i have installed java successfully from a .bin file
[15:59] <holstein> http://thameera.wordpress.com/2011/06/16/unity-2d/ < on unity 2d if you're interested
[15:59] <RiggsFolly> adm = This gives the group member the right to xxxxx
[15:59] <RiggsFolly> avahi-autoipd = This gives the group member the right to yyyyyy
[15:59] <raju> if i enter java or javac its not listing the flow and showing some pkgs
[15:59] <holstein> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Audio/TheAudioGroup
[16:00] <RiggsFolly> holstein: Aghhhhhh now we might be getting somewhere
[16:01] <holstein> RiggsFolly: you could search/ask on a group by group basis
[16:01] <holstein> i think that would be best
[16:01] <RiggsFolly> ok thanks
[16:02] <holstein> RiggsFolly: also, these wikis are 2 ways really... if you feel we need a 'default user groups explained' wiki page, go for it... i'll even help if i can
[16:03] <RiggsFolly> yea, think I had better learn a littel more before I go telling others the wgong thing
[16:03] <RiggsFolly> but I will bear the idea of getting involved in mind
[16:04] <holstein> RiggsFolly: thats why i dont want to say too much as well
[16:05] <holstein> i have only used those few groups enough to really have something to share
[16:05] <RiggsFolly> ok well thanks for what you have done for me.
[16:06] <holstein> i think keeping in mind that any of these groups your user is in can be a potential security risk is enough
[16:06] <RiggsFolly> exactly
[16:06] <holstein> i have to be in the audio group and video
[16:06] <holstein> and im aware of the risks
[16:06] <holstein> i dont do that on every machine though
[16:07] <holstein> i could also do something like have a seperate user for recording audio
[16:07] <holstein> i bascially have that since i have a dedicated machine for that task
[16:08] <RiggsFolly> the more i see about these groups the less I think i need to use them for what I want to do
[16:10] <holstein> RiggsFolly: whats the goal?
[16:11] <holstein> RiggsFolly: also, its challenging as well to have a hardware compatibility list
[16:11] <holstein> there are lots of wikis though, and a new 'ubuntu friendly' initiative
[16:11] <RiggsFolly> the goal was actually only to understand what they were each for
[16:11] <holstein> but, a kernel rev and really knock out some support for older hardware
[16:12] <RiggsFolly> like I say I like to know what I am doing and I dont on unix ( I am a mainframe and Windows guy )
[16:12] <holstein> RiggsFolly: the more i learn about ubuntu and the internals, the more im just amazed that it all works and anything gets done
[16:12] <holstein> theres *so* much information
[16:13] <holstein> just bug reports alone are quite time consuming
[16:13] <holstein> RiggsFolly: its just different
[16:13] <holstein> with windows, what would you do?
[16:13] <holstein> you'd buy hardware and look for a driver
[16:13] <holstein> not much different really
[16:14] <holstein> theres just more freedom i find
[16:14] <RiggsFolly> yea, I just wanted to set up a PC to run as a jukebox basically. To site in the Clubs bar and play CD's and the like
[16:14] <RiggsFolly> maybe I am just getting a bit to picky
[16:14] <holstein> RiggsFolly: the answer is always yes basically
[16:14] <holstein> nothing is hiding from you
[16:14] <holstein> and instead of microsoft, its really just you and me
[16:14] <holstein> and we can do whatever we learn how to do
[16:15] <RiggsFolly> THAST WHAT WORRIES ME, cause I knoe I dont know enough
[16:15] <holstein> RiggsFolly: you gotta start somewhere :)
[16:15] <RiggsFolly> anyway  THANKS. I got go now and collect the GF from work
[16:15] <holstein> sure... we can talk about some jukebox solutions sometime if you'd like
[16:15] <holstein> o/
[16:26] <bdfhjk> Hi!
[16:27] <bdfhjk> Is there anyone, who can help me in router issue on ubuntu?
[16:28] <holstein> bdfhjk: i can try, whats up?
[16:28] <bdfhjk> I have new router
[16:28] <bdfhjk> and try to connect to it
[16:28] <bdfhjk> using 198.162.1.1 addres
[16:28] <bdfhjk> but in this addres I have apache welcome page
[16:29] <bdfhjk> I removed apache, deleted IP from /etc/network/interfaces
[16:29] <holstein> maybe the router has a webserver
[16:29] <bdfhjk> but still entering 192.168.1.1 I see "it works! "
[16:30] <bdfhjk> no, this router work normal in windows
[16:30] <holstein> hit control+F5 as well
[16:30] <holstein> maybe you are seeing a cached page
[16:30] <bdfhjk> and I see this message also when it is not connected
[16:31] <bdfhjk> this is not cached
[16:31] <bdfhjk> I restarted computer :-)
[16:31] <holstein> that doesnt mean its not cached
[16:32] <holstein> if the machine is not online, and you are seeing a webpage that used to be at 192.168.1.1, thats a cached page
[16:32] <holstein> bdfhjk: control+F5 forces a refresh in most browsers
[16:32] <holstein> restarting the box doesnt necessarily
[16:33] <holstein> bdfhjk: control+F5 did what??
[16:39] <holstein> bdfhjk: whats the word?
[16:39] <holstein> im about to head out the door... i still say its a cached page
[16:39] <holstein> if you cant figure out control+F5, and you dont want to clear the browser cache, install another web browser and try it
[16:39] <holstein> sudo apt-get install midori
[16:42] <coalwater> bdfhjk, are u sure the router is on that ip ?
[16:42] <coalwater> like for example my ip uses 192.168.16.1
[16:42] <coalwater> my router* sorry
[16:43] <coalwater> check the default route on the connection information on the network applet
[16:43] <coalwater> or not :D
[16:43] <coalwater> he broke his router
[16:43] <coalwater> lol
[16:45] <bdfhjk> eh now I am back
[16:45] <bdfhjk> I connected by wi-fi to router
[16:45] <bdfhjk> and now I can connect by wi-fi
[16:45] <bdfhjk> but I can't connect by eth
[17:00] <kristian-aalborg> has anybody had success running this "paltalk" thing on Linux?
[17:00] <kristian-aalborg> I see it can be done via Wine/VM... but nothing native, amirite?
[17:11] <coalwater> bdfhjk, can u tell me ur problem again, u can't connect to the router thru eth0 but u can from wifi ?
[17:33] <bdfhjk> coalwater: hi
[17:33] <coalwater> hello
[17:33] <bdfhjk> coalwater: now I solved one problem
[17:33] <bdfhjk> coalwater: and have another
[17:34] <bdfhjk> coalwater: I try to set internet sharing
[17:34] <bdfhjk> coalwater: from PC (Ubuntu, ppp0 - wireless modem)
[17:34] <coalwater> there was a post in the website about internet sharing
[17:34] <bdfhjk> using router
[17:34] <coalwater> hm let me check
[17:34] <bdfhjk> to X10
[17:34] <bdfhjk> phone
[17:35] <coalwater> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WifiDocs/ShareEthernetConnectionThroughWireless
[17:36] <bdfhjk> thanks, but
[17:36] <bdfhjk> I saw this
[17:36] <bdfhjk> the main problem
[17:37] <bdfhjk> I can connect phone to router and computer to router
[17:37] <bdfhjk> I can also set a firestarter to enable connection sharing
[17:38] <bdfhjk> but I can't set a gateway in router
[17:38] <bdfhjk> I don't know how to do it
[17:39] <bdfhjk> So what IP I should put in gateway
[17:39] <bdfhjk> My ppp0 IP or my computer-router IP (eth0)
[17:39] <bdfhjk> ?
[17:41] <holstein> my router's ip is 192.168.5.1
[17:41] <coalwater> i don't really know, most these stuff are auto
[17:41] <coalwater> dhcp handles most of this
[17:42] <holstein> right
[17:42] <holstein> you can always set it to static
[17:42] <bdfhjk> My router DHCP assign IP for X10
[17:42] <holstein> i have 192.168.5.10 through 192.168.5.90 for DHCP
[17:43] <bdfhjk> But it should direct connections to PC
[17:43] <holstein> your router assigns an ip for everything unless you specifiy otherwise
[17:43] <holstein> thats what you have asked it to do
[17:43] <bdfhjk> and I don't know how to set it to do this
[17:43] <holstein> static ip
[17:44] <bdfhjk> where ?
[17:45] <holstein> i dont know what an x10 is
[17:46] <bdfhjk> It is impossible to set it in android
[17:46] <holstein> but i would probably start with 'x10 how to set static ip
[17:46] <holstein> bdfhjk: should be
[17:46] <bdfhjk> I know should be :-)
[17:46] <bdfhjk> but isn't
[17:46] <bdfhjk> I must use DHCP
[17:46] <bdfhjk> and set all in router
[17:47] <holstein> http://androidforums.com/htc-hero/48713-static-ip-address.html
[17:47] <bdfhjk> I don't have advanced tab
[17:48] <bdfhjk> because I don't rooted it
[17:48] <bdfhjk> when I root phone, I lose my guarantion
[17:51] <holstein> bdfhjk: on the wifi tab?
[17:51] <bdfhjk> yes
[17:51] <bdfhjk> I read about it some days ago
[17:53] <holstein> bdfhjk: you wont be able to set a static ip on cellular
[17:53] <holstein> thats not what you want anyways
[17:54] <holstein> ive seen some router firmware that lets you specifiy
[17:54] <holstein> eitherway, you should be able to find the IP of the droid
[17:54] <holstein> im just not clear on what you want
[17:55] <holstein> i mean, you dont need to share anything on the buntu box if you have wifi from the router
[17:55] <holstein> i use http://www.dd-wrt.com/site/index assuming you have a compatilble device
[17:55] <holstein> might give you more flexibility
[18:03] <bdfhjk> sorry for late answer
[18:03] <bdfhjk> I have wi-fi from the router
[18:04] <bdfhjk> I am thinking about how to tell my router to direct connections to ppp0 in ubuntu computer
[18:04] <holstein> why?
[18:05] <bdfhjk> because my phone can only connect to router
[18:05] <bdfhjk> can't to computer
[18:05] <holstein> right, but whats the problem with that?
[18:05] <holstein> at that point they are networked
[18:06] <holstein> making the phone share the network from the buntu box shouldnt give you any more functionality
[18:06] <holstein> AFAIK, it will basically be acting as a switch
[18:08] <bdfhjk> problem lays in android system policy
[18:08] <bdfhjk> with don't allow to modify system settings
[18:08] <holstein> right, but thats *always* going to be the same
[18:09] <holstein> doesnt matter how you connect to your network
[18:09] <holstein> what are you trying to do?
[18:09] <bdfhjk> I am trying to have net in my phone :-)
[18:09] <bdfhjk> And in android system
[18:09] <bdfhjk> phone can only connect to wi-fi AP
[18:10] <bdfhjk> ad-hoc connections aren't allowed
[18:10] <holstein> right, but that gets you 'net on the phone'
[18:10] <holstein> when you connect via wifi
[18:12] <bdfhjk> You mean via wifi to computer?
[18:12] <holstein> where ever
[18:12] <holstein> i mean to the router
[18:13] <holstein> where i am pretty sure if i understand you, you are able to connect
[18:13] <holstein> connecting the phone to the computer bypassing the router wont afford you any more luxuries
[18:14] <bdfhjk> I am sorry If I get You wrong ( I am not expierienced in english)
[18:14] <holstein> OK
[18:14] <bdfhjk> but
[18:14] <holstein> lets imagine for a minute we travel an hour and a half in the future
[18:15] <holstein> and you are connected to the ubuntu box with your phone
[18:15] <holstein> then what?
[18:15] <holstein> you still got the same android permissions issues
[18:15] <holstein> if the issue is the phone, it wont matter where you connect or how
[18:16] <bdfhjk> That isn't true. My computer network card don't have AP mode. My router have it
[18:16] <bdfhjk> and phone can connect only in AP mode
[18:16] <holstein> right, and what does that matter?
[18:16] <holstein> that still doesnt help you with the phone issues
[18:16] <holstein> AP mode doesnt give you more access
[18:16] <holstein> or less
[18:16] <bdfhjk> this not a problem
[18:16] <bdfhjk> the problem is
[18:17] <bdfhjk> how to set router
[18:17] <bdfhjk> that it will direct connections from phone to computer-> internet
[18:17] <holstein> its not doing anything to prevent that
[18:17] <holstein> the 2 devices are on the network
[18:17] <bdfhjk> yes
[18:17] <bdfhjk> but look
[18:18] <bdfhjk> my computer have 192.168.1.4 IP
[18:18] <bdfhjk> my phone ....5
[18:18] <holstein> right
[18:18] <bdfhjk> and my router ....1
[18:18] <holstein> right, router/gateway
[18:18] <bdfhjk> but when I use internet on phone
[18:18] <bdfhjk> it connect with gateway
[18:19] <bdfhjk> but gateway isn't connected with internet
[18:19] <holstein> ah.. theres the piece of the puzzle ive been missing
[18:19] <holstein> the ubuntu box is connected to the internet
[18:19] <holstein> and the router is not
[18:20] <holstein> you cant just run the internet into the router? and use it in a more traditional fashion?
[18:21] <coalwater> ok so can i try imagine something, u have gateway, with no wireless, and a router with a wireless? and u want to connect internet to the router to give access to the phone ?
[18:22] <coalwater> it sounds more like a switch with a wireless interface
[18:22] <holstein> well, i just have one router/gateway
[18:22] <bdfhjk> hm...
[18:22] <coalwater> yea
[18:22] <holstein> the others just act like switches
[18:22] <bdfhjk> maybe I draw it
[18:22] <bdfhjk> and create thread at forum
[18:23] <coalwater> gateway->router->computer would do fine
[18:23] <holstein> im not clear on why you dont use the router as that, a router, and plug the main internet directly into it
[18:24] <holstein> and then, connect all other devices through the router, which is online
[18:24] <holstein> and then, all devices have internet, and are networked with each other
[18:24] <bdfhjk> because I have cellular internet
[18:24] <coalwater> i've seen one at my cousin, the router doesn't really have a gateway, so it's just a switch with wirelsss, i think that's what he's talking about
[18:24] <bdfhjk> form HSDPA modem in netbook
[18:24] <holstein> bdfhjk: you should lead with that next time
[18:24] <bdfhjk> sorry
[18:25] <coalwater> so the computer is the gateway
[18:25] <bdfhjk> yes
[18:25] <coalwater> lol
[18:25] <coalwater> that's totally different now
[18:25] <bdfhjk> but phone can't direct connect to computer
[18:25] <holstein> still, if the netbook has 2 network cards you should be able to grab wifi, and sent it via wired network to the router
[18:25] <holstein> then, like coalwater says gateway-router-devices
[18:26] <bdfhjk> I try to set up router it this model
[18:26] <bdfhjk> computer connect to internet
[18:26] <coalwater> does the computer have wireless?
[18:26] <bdfhjk> yes
[18:26] <coalwater> so u want the wireless to act as an access point
[18:26] <holstein> yeah, make a wifi router out of the netbook
[18:27] <bdfhjk> I want to use router as access point
[18:27] <holstein> connect it up wired then, and use it like a switch
[18:27] <coalwater> it's kinda easy to do so on windows, u mark an interface to allow others to connect, and let others target that ip
[18:27] <bdfhjk> yes, but not in android
[18:27] <bdfhjk> when I have windows mobile
[18:28] <holstein> android will just connect to the AP though
[18:28] <holstein> and that will be online
[18:28] <holstein> in this scenario^
[18:28] <bdfhjk> yes
[18:28] <bdfhjk> but how to make AP ?
[18:28] <coalwater> ok, connect to the router, and connect the router to the pc, and write the computer ip as a gateway ip
[18:28] <bdfhjk> ok
[18:28] <bdfhjk> but what IP
[18:29] <bdfhjk> 'what computer IP
[18:29] <coalwater> the computer's ip on the wired network
[18:29] <bdfhjk> 192.168.1.4?
[18:29] <coalwater> i dont know ur network set up, if that's the computer ip then i guess
[18:29] <bdfhjk> ok
[18:29] <bdfhjk> I try
[18:37] <bdfhjk> When I connect to router
[18:37] <bdfhjk> my computer was disconnected with internet
[18:37] <bdfhjk> and I don't know
[18:37] <bdfhjk> where to set gateway in router
[18:38] <bdfhjk> please look
[18:38] <bdfhjk> http://www.image-share.com/ipng-772-17.html
[18:38] <bdfhjk> http://www.image-share.com/ipng-772-18.html
[18:38] <bdfhjk> there are screenshots from my router settings page
[18:42] <keapon> bdfhjk I don't know, but usually gateways end in a .1 or .0
[18:44] <bdfhjk> keapon: not in this case
[18:46] <holstein> you dont want the gateway to the a computer IP
[18:47] <holstein> bdfhjk: work with a small piece of the puzzle
[18:47] <holstein> take the cellular connected machine while its connected
[18:47] <holstein> wire the router to it, and get that forwarding the network like a switch
[18:47] <holstein> at that point, everything else should just connect and be easy
[18:50] <bdfhjk> I must set forwarding in gateway
[18:50] <bdfhjk> actual my gateway is router
[18:50] <bdfhjk> and I can't change this
[18:51] <holstein> nah.. you just want to share on the machine
[18:51] <holstein> the router will just do that
[18:51] <holstein> route
[18:51] <holstein> the cellular connected netbook will be acting like a modem for you
[18:52] <bdfhjk> yes
[18:52] <bdfhjk> but my phone don't know this
[18:52] <holstein> your phone is not an issue
[18:52] <holstein> the phone doesnt need to be in the equation yet
[18:53] <holstein> you get the router working properly, and you can connect your phone or whatever to that later
[18:53] <bdfhjk> holstein, I setted internet forwarding, connected phone to router and router to computer
[18:54] <bdfhjk> but I must also tell router, that it should look at internet in computer
[18:54] <holstein> right, thats not the order
[18:54] <holstein> dont connect anything to the router yet
[18:54] <bdfhjk> so what I should do?
[18:54] <holstein> bdfhjk: put the phone down
[18:54] <holstein> the router will just take the internet from the wired network device on the computer
[18:54] <holstein> when that is configured properly
[18:55] <bdfhjk> this not working
[18:56] <holstein> right
[18:56] <holstein> does your ISP block this?
[18:56] <holstein> what i would do is get another known good network card, like on a desktop machine or another laptop
[18:57] <holstein> i would plug that into the netbook with the cellular connection
[18:57] <holstein> i would then configure the netbook intil it was sending its internet over to the other machine via the wired interface
[18:57] <holstein> i would want to ping google.com or whatever
[18:58] <holstein> THEN, in theory, when you plug the router in where that test machine was plugged in, it *should* just work
[19:00] <bdfhjk> I try to solve this tomorow
[19:02] <bdfhjk> Thanks for help
[19:02] <holstein> sure
[19:02] <bdfhjk> holstein, coalwater and keapon
[19:02] <coalwater> hey
[19:02] <holstein> the issue is not with the router though...
[19:02] <holstein> i say, the netbook is *not* passing the network along, unless you have tested that
[19:02] <bdfhjk> I tested, I can connect another computer to netbook by cable and share internet
[19:02] <bdfhjk> but today I am tired
[19:03] <holstein> bdfhjk: with it like that, you should be able to reset the router, and just plug it in
[19:03] <bdfhjk> yes, but this not work ( I tried this)
[19:03] <holstein> bdfhjk: after reseting the router?
[19:03] <holstein> with the button?
[19:04] <holstein> you want to look at a few IP addresses for conflicts then
[19:04] <bdfhjk> yes
[19:06] <holstein> you want to see what IP a machine is getting from the netbook
[19:07] <coalwater> bdfhjk, do u know what i do, i grab the usb sim card and stick it in the phone and use it directly lol
[19:08] <holstein> hehe... thats an idea, i dont have a sim card phone though
[19:09] <keapon> Could it be a DHCP issue? The laptop and the router both trying to assign IP addys?
[19:09] <bdfhjk> I can't do this
[19:09] <bdfhjk> because
[19:10] <bdfhjk> some programs on androin can download data only by wi-fi connection
[19:10] <bdfhjk> and can't use internal mode
[19:10] <bdfhjk> 'modem
[19:10] <bdfhjk> 'android
[19:11] <bdfhjk> sorry for errors
[19:12] <bdfhjk> keapon: not, computers, router and phone have diffrent IPs
[19:14] <keapon> Typically the router assigns internal IPs to whatever devices are connected to it
[19:15] <holstein> yeah, you can try disabling DHCP on the router
[19:15] <holstein> that would be the preferred way either way
[19:23] <keapon> I have a syslog problem, it's not logging