[00:00] i'm off for antiques roadshow. old? yes, i am. see everyone tomorrow [00:21] greg-g: no idea when we'll cross paths again [00:58] rick_h_: :( [00:59] greg-g: yea, we'll figure something out at some point [01:03] rick_h_: if you need it by any point, just let me know, and I'll take the time to head to CHC [11:12] g'morning [11:15] morning [11:15] early party greg-g ? [11:21] about the usual now. I have an employee that needs to start at 8am (so she can get to her second half-time gig by noon-ish) so I need to be there to open the door for her [11:22] ah, gotcha [11:41] nappy nappy [11:43] morning [11:44] brousch: +1 [11:45] crap, now I feel like I'm a google ad when I do a +1 in chat [11:45] why do you even do +1? We've always been a ++ crowd.... [11:45] python doesn't do ++ [11:45] It doesn't? [11:46] Lame [11:46] +=1 [11:46] -- [11:48] google's in your head, man [11:48] crap! /me runs [11:49] Good morning [11:49] We were doing +1 before +! became cool [11:50] We're +1 hipsters [11:51] morning [11:52] Nice, looks like Jamendo updated their terms of service [11:55] And we're about 5 minutes away from the OMC big four of CC metal [11:57] crap, i'm way behind on omc [11:58] no assburners? [11:58] No assburners [11:58] Everything else, though [12:00] i'm boycotting [12:02] brousch: OK. [12:02] http://openmetalcast.com/2011/07/12/open-metalcast-episode-25-the-big-four-of-cc-metal/ [12:03] i need a snappy protest chant [12:03] snap-l: do you know what the changes were to the Jamendo TOS? [12:05] blah blah own your ass blah blah all your music are belong to us blah blah lawsuit [12:06] They give a small summary [12:06] one sec. [12:07] http://paste.mitechie.com/show/361/ [12:07] Mostly that artists need to make sure they're not part of some collective agency (ASCAP) [12:07] that they can pull out of Jamendo Pro at any time (used to be a year) [12:08] and that Jamendo is committed to not using their tracks for things like pornos, political stuff, etc. [12:08] ah, so mostly with PRO [12:08] and the assurance that artists will keep their music "free" on the site. [12:09] * greg-g nods [12:09] ie: I'm CC, but also ASCAP [12:09] or I made a CC cover of Rick Astley, but that's ASCAP [12:09] heh, right [12:09] or BMI, or ... [12:10] brousch: Still boycotting? [12:10] yes, until this afternoon when i'll have a chance to listen [12:11] Ok, just wanted to make a note in Google Analytics. ;) [12:11] I hope you all like the intro [12:27] http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2011/07/military-meltdown-monday-90k-military-usernames-hashes-released.ars [12:27] *sigh* [12:30] rick_h_: That's AWESOME. [12:31] (and by awesome, I mean freaking terrible) [12:31] yea, 90k military passwords for potential reuse across any facing military sites [12:31] sha-1 wheeee [12:31] If there's a high ranking officer in there with 12345 as a password, I'm going to explode [12:32] rick_h_: Brace for it [12:32] http://www.duosecurity.com/docs/top250gawker.txt better not match up [12:36] yeah, chances are there is one with 12345 (but maybe up to 8 if there are char limits) :) [12:37] always have greg-g to help me feel better [12:37] 'tis what I'm here for [12:40] qwertyui [12:41] or for the touch-typists out there, a password meeting normal restrictions would be Asdfjkl; [12:41] (one cap plus one non-alpha) [12:42] Wolfger: however, if you reuse that password it's all for naught [12:45] * greg-g nods [12:45] Thank you, Revelation Password manager [12:46] * Wolfger contemplates the name "Revelation" for a password manager.... [12:46] I don't want my passwords revealed :-p [12:47] hah [12:47] only to you, my good boy [12:50] any one looking for work? OU has a sysadmin opening in the school of business. it's going to me mostly windows work. just fyi [12:50] and you get to work with me :) [12:51] we would get to work with windows? [12:51] is that supposed to be an incentive? [12:52] heh, don't listen to brousch, he's a windows worker already :P [12:53] But my goal is to phase it out of existence [12:59] I'd be interested in that position, but something tells me OU wants a degreed applicant. And/or it won't pay comparable to my existing job :-p [13:05] yeah, 4 year degree is a must [13:07] working with windows is always a joy. :p [13:13] Speaking of Windows: https://identi.ca/notice/78611773 [13:15] :-) [13:15] All it needs is a talking paperclip... [13:21] Speaking of cutesy little crap... Why hasn't Ubuntu changed the "working" cursor to a rotating Ubuntu circle? That would be pretty slick... [13:23] Wolfger: I'm not sure why. [13:23] I'm surprised they didn't use the Atari ST Bee. [13:23] http://www.cafepress.com/atari_st_bee [13:23] That way you'd know your computer was a busy bee. [13:24] groan [13:25] * snap-l is regretting sticking witht eh Atari 8 bit for as long as I did [13:25] missed out on the classic mac, the Atari ST, etc. [13:28] jcastro: which museum were you working at on dinosaur stuff? [13:30] Thanks for the RTs [13:31] East siders with kids, how awesome is the Detroit Science Center? http://www.detroitsciencecenter.org/ [13:32] brousch: I don't know. I haven't been to the DSC in a while [13:32] on the order of many many years. [13:32] brousch: Have you been to Impression 5? [13:33] http://impression5.org/index.php [13:33] no [13:33] Last I was there, it was pretty damn awesome. [13:33] that's been over 10 years now, iirc. [13:33] But it's a very hands-on place. [13:33] we were supposed to have a family outing to the detroit zoo this weekend, but people are dropping due to heat [13:33] 10yrs and 10 budget cuts later ... [13:34] so i'm trying to reroute it to someplace indoors before people just give up [13:34] DSC is teh awesome [13:35] no kids, but I have godchildren :-p [13:35] and I love it just for the domed Imax movies [13:36] <_stink_> brousch: it's worth a trip, i think [13:36] <_stink_> depends on the age of the kids [13:37] 3 - 4 [13:37] i think the animatronic dinos would be enough by themselves [13:37] <_stink_> yeah [13:38] <_stink_> it's a good alternative for sure [13:38] <_stink_> for the zoo [13:46] anyone know anything about http://www.typemock.com/ [13:46] ? [13:47] I just got a personal email suggesting we (the LoCo) do a webinar about it [13:47] if you want a free license for it, let me know, I don't think we'll do the webinar as a group :) [13:48] Interesting. [13:48] greg-g: not seen/heard of typemock [13:48] brousch: There's also the Cranbrook museum, but that's not as geared to young ones, if memory serves. [13:52] btw, I feel soooo much better with my Photos/Videos/Music now on my RAID 1 enclosure (only took about an hour last night after a couple failed first starts, figuring out the optimum setup) [13:57] greg-g: Very cool [14:14] greg-g: and in the cloud, i assume [14:22] brousch: Photos and Music are on my colo, videos not (yet) [14:22] takes a lot longer to transfer video from laptop to USB drive than laptop to colo over wifi :) [14:22] erm, switch than [14:23] even using U-M's ginormous pipes? [14:24] well, the wifi is artificially limited, and I can't plug my laptop into the ethernet since it is not U-M owned (that is library policy, I could when I worked in the Med School's Dept. of Enabling Technologies) [15:13] so Python can do "normal" variable insertion of variables inside print statements, and also C-style formatted (i.e. %s to placehold for string variable) insertion? Why would you ever actually want to do the second of those two things? [15:13] <_stink_> what do you mean by the first of those things? [15:14] print "There are", cars, "cars available." [15:14] Wolfger: it's useful for decimal formatting [15:14] <_stink_> ah, ok [15:14] <_stink_> formatting and keeping a string template around for repeated use [15:15] <_stink_> but now % substitution is deprecated, and .format() is what we're supposed to use. [15:15] ah, I understand the latter. Example of decimal formatting? [15:16] <_stink_> http://docs.python.org/library/stdtypes.html#string-formatting-operations [15:16] <_stink_> like number of places to the right of the decimal type stuff [15:16] ok so two parts [15:17] one, strings are immutable [15:17] building a string with + is a performance kill [15:17] never ever do that [15:17] .format() is the bomb and does all the fancinesss you want in one function call [15:18] http://paste.mitechie.com/show/362/ [15:18] I want fanciness? ;-) [15:19] * snap-l looks at all of his + concatenated strings. [15:20] What should I use in place of +, then? [15:20] snap-l: .format() [15:21] blergh [15:21] % is gone in pythong3 [15:21] print "Sending of " + infile + " with file-type " + data_file_type + " failed" [15:22] so instead that would be: [15:22] print "Sending of {0} with filetype {1} failed.format(infile, data_filetype) [15:22] print "Sending of {} with file-type {} failed".format(infile,date_file_type) [15:22] or [15:23] print "Sending of {in} with filetype {type} failed.format(in=infile, type=data_filetype) [15:23] I think works [15:23] which is generally better since you can do things like [15:24] data = {in: xxx, type: zzz, size: 999} [15:24] and just do .format(**data) [15:24] and it'll match any names that exist4 [15:24] /exist4/exist [15:24] Now that is fairly sweet [15:24] Ah, interesting. [15:24] but each time you do + it reallocates memeory and builds a new string [15:25] so "test" + 3 + "bob" + var3 actually builds 4 different strings in memory [15:25] ugly [15:25] and you end up getting one back and the other 3 have to be garbage collected [15:25] yea, the .format() is also good for bringing all your 'output messages' to a single file [15:25] and doing things like [15:25] print msgs.invalid_file.format(**data) [15:26] poor mans internalization or string changes from client to client [15:26] <_stink_> rick_h_: so **some_dict is how you take an existing dict and pass it into a function expecting keyword args? [15:26] right, it loops through the dict turning each key:val into kwargs [15:26] <_stink_> that.... is something i did not know [15:26] <_stink_> thanks [15:26] yea, very handy for things like that [15:27] cool when an object implements the dict protocol [15:27] say you have user.name user.age user.sex [15:27] you can fill out a whole user page with just html.format(**user) [15:27] screw book learning, I'm just going to ask questions in-channel when rick_h_ is around :-) [15:28] heh, well like all rules I don't always follow and I cheat and do + if I'm only doing it once in a string kind of thing [15:28] all my functional tests have "should not be empty: " + str(response) [15:28] because it's in tests and shorter than the .format() version [15:28] Now is all that dict-passing goodness peculiar to Py3, or is it in Py2 as well? [15:31] It's in Py2 [15:31] Also, is there some point at which the size of the dict becomes an issue? I mean, if we're concerned about building 4 strings to print one, are we also concerned that we might wind up passing a 200 entry dict into a print that needs only 1 or 2 of those? [15:31] well, string operations tend to be looped [15:31] say you're outputting a csv file or soething [15:31] you do 4 for each row of the file [15:31] and yes, dicts can have overhead [15:32] they'd about 5x more memeory overhead than a namedtuples [15:32] which is the preferred way to keep data like that if you're going ot have tons of it [15:32] the dict/object thing is handy since most data can/should be in that format anyway [15:32] but anytime I have a ton of dicts in a script I start using namedtuples [15:33] <_stink_> what do you lose, then? some dict methods? [15:33] well namedtuples are only as big as you define them [15:33] <_stink_> ah, ok [15:33] so if there are 4 properties, you can only have those 4 [15:33] you can't keep adding to them [15:33] since they're immutable [15:34] so you can't update the values as well [15:34] like a counter or something [15:34] they behave more like tuples, but with pretty names so it reads much nicer than [15:34] <_stink_> right, gotcha [15:34] data[1], data[2] [15:34] <_stink_> mutability is the key difference [15:34] it's data.filename, data.size [15:34] rgr [15:34] but if you're processing something known, file fields, data on a file you know, etc, it's much better performance [15:35] <_stink_> yep [15:35] <_stink_> cool, thanks [15:35] and thus ends python 101 by @mitechie for the day lol [15:35] homework is due thurs [15:35] <_stink_> my dog ate it [15:35] psh, must be submitted to the server via git push [15:40] Anyone using GitHub pages at all? [15:42] no, I looked into it, but doing it with sphinx docs seemed more compliacted [15:48] wait, what? [15:48] I missed the assignment. [15:49] And now I need Git 101 to submit my homework [15:49] * Wolfger cries [15:49] that was a pre-req [15:49] how did you get in without it? [15:49] dunno. They just let me sign up [15:52] OK, periscope down and back to work. P.S.: I hate stupid rules on the laptop that prevent the wifi from working the instant you plug a cable in, even though the cable is a direct connect to a device :-p === mpiccinato_ is now known as mpiccinato [16:46] Wolfger: Are you using VPN? It's likely to keep you from routing crap around [16:47] All in the name of security. [17:18] whoa, just got emailed out of the blue to present at 1DevDay detroit [17:19] anyone know David Mckinnon? [17:19] or ever been to 1DevDay? [17:21] neither [17:22] never heard of either [17:28] http://1devdaydetroit.wordpress.com/ and https://sites.google.com/site/1devday/ [17:28] looks like [17:28] cool, michigan based dev conf [17:38] rick_h_: That is awesome. When is it? [17:38] No 4/5th [17:38] Nov that is [17:39] opening stuff the evening of 4th [17:39] conf day is 5th [21:03] rick_h_: What would you present? Alot of the topics seems to about Java [21:11] rick_h_: david is a good guy, runs the Detroit Java User Group and has setup a couple local dev events [21:24] Hello? [21:25] alpha-01: hey [21:25] It works! [21:25] hello blazeix [21:25] hey, yep [21:25] Hello there. [21:26] I was told this was the place to go to find local michiganders who might be able/willing to assist me with updating my OS [21:26] any chance that might be any of you? [21:27] Um, that depends. [21:27] i thought so, just wanted to get some sort of conversation started [21:27] what would it depend on? [21:28] What OS you're talking about? [21:28] ubuntu [21:28] do you know what version? [21:29] i read 11.04 was buggy when you try to thumbstick install it using sandisk [21:29] so i'd be content with whatever would actually work [21:30] You should be more specific about the version you're trying to upgrade from [21:30] what version are you on now? [21:30] i haven't been able to get a successful install since the first time i did this which was 8. something [21:30] You can go to the "System > About" menu, I htink [21:30] so i figure it is time to seek help from others and swallow that granual of pride [21:30] 8.10 [21:31] i have a netbook so a live cd is out of the question... [21:32] and while i can get the machine to boot from the usb, it hangs at one point and just won't go anyfurther, gives up, and loads 8.10 [21:33] alpha-01: I don't believe you can upgrade from 8.10 to 11.04 directly [21:34] because the intervening versions aren't there [21:34] i've also tried 10.04 to no avail [21:34] and you'll likely get messed up [21:34] explains a lot [21:35] alpha-01: What netbook? [21:35] and what CD image are you trying to put on the UDB drive? [21:35] *USB [21:36] ubuntu-10.04.2-desktop-i386 [21:39] How are you putting the image on the USB key? [21:43] sorry for the disappearing act [21:44] ubuntu-10.04.2-desktop-i386.iso [21:46] anybody there? [21:49] anybody? [21:57] somebody, anybody! [21:57] I am sorry for leaving you [21:57] I won't ever do it again... [22:02] alpha-01: don't worry about it, some of us are busy. are you using usb-creator to create the usb stick? [22:03] "create a usb start up disk" part of ubuntu 8.10 admin apps. [22:08] so i am guessing the likelihood of finding another michigander is a little less than likely. Know thought that I still heartilly appreciate your effort. [22:22] ok, different question. what must i do to join an additional room? [22:22] or channel as i believe they might be called here. [22:22] <_stink_> alpha-01: just do /join #whateveryouwant [22:23] thanks stink [22:23] <_stink_> np [22:25] "i am guessing the likelihood of finding another michigander is a little less than likely", I know Flint's a ghost town, but I don't think its that bad [22:25] :) [22:26] detroit is closer, but then again, how many detroiter's use ubuntu, and of that number, how many in this channel right now? [22:26] :) [22:42] <_stink_> alpha-01: do you have another machine handy? one with a CD ROM drive? [22:43] <_stink_> there are utilities for XP (and i guess for win7, not that i would know) that can make a bootable ubuntu USB drive [22:43] <_stink_> might be your best bet [22:44] i might try that [22:45] other machine has no internet though so it will take a couple extra steps [22:45] thanks for the input [22:46] Milyardo: something about Python. I'm token divisertiy :) [22:46] mpiccinato: ah cool [22:47] <_stink_> alpha-01: yeah, gotta get the ISO file onto the other machine somehow. [22:47] the regular install .iso? [22:48] <_stink_> yeah - those USB creation tools always want you to be able to point at the iso file on the local machine's hard drive somewhere. [22:49] <_stink_> and if that machine's not on the internets, you'll have to shuffle it via USB or something. [22:49] i have that already [22:49] <_stink_> cool. you just have to get it on the machine you'll create the bootable USB from. [22:49] ubuntu has an app to convert it to bootable usb form. [22:50] but it doesn't work [22:50] it gets stuck and then gives up and boots regular [23:34] Have you verified the media? [23:37] ?? [23:37] totally verified...? [23:40] greg-g: ?? you going back to CC? [23:43] rick_h_: yep! [23:44] greg-g: dude! quit doing awesome stuff :P [23:44] alright, email writing time, transition period begins [23:44] going back to CA then? [23:44] yeah [23:44] boooooo! but yay [23:44] :/ :) [23:45] wait, moving to california? [23:46] alpha-01: there is quite a large linux user group in detroit [23:46] snap-l is one of the board members or something [23:47] really? [23:47] i thought snap-l was from DC [23:47] nope, our snap-l is in Detroit, board member of MUG (http://mug.org) [23:47] most of the active users in here are in detroit/ann arbor [23:47] nice [23:48] alpha-01: when you emailled me, i assumed you were in west mi [23:48] MUG is going on right now, so that is why he isn't responding, he just finished giving a preso [23:48] heh [23:48] wow [23:48] where is MUG? [23:49] we're in Southfield now [23:49] lol [23:49] http://www.mug.org/map/ [23:49] :) [23:49] at the engineering society of detroit office [23:49] I'm hanging out in madison heights and live in west bloomfield [23:49] yay oakland county [23:50] :) [23:50] well, if tyrok led me astray i may i have to meet up with one of you at some point. [23:50] is this still the unofficial MUG channel or did they get their own? [23:50] tyrok is the man [23:50] we have one but this remains more active [23:50] very helpful [23:50] brousch: mug has its own channel [23:51] but this is official back channel not to be used on the projector :) [23:51] #mugorg [23:52] my dad just got wimax out here in the boondocks between ravenna and sparta [23:52] i'm hooking up the rest of his network [23:52] intrepid ibex is dead, so he recommended replacing intrepid references with karmic in the etc/apt/sources.list and then upgrading which seems to be working so far. [23:52] not to the reboot yet, we shall see... [23:52] hm, risky [23:53] hopefully you backed up first [23:53] he had be back up [23:53] nothing else seemed to work, so hopefully this does the trick. [23:54] i recommend you back up your home dir and install the newest ubuntu. otherwise you'll have to upgrade through 9.04, 9.10, 10.04, 10.10, 11.04 [23:54] tried installing 11.04 but i guess it is buggy with a sandisk thumbstick [23:54] then tried 10.10 to no avail. [23:55] greg-g: WHere in CC are you headed? [23:55] and COngratulations! [23:55] And yes, I'm in Michigan. [23:55] hopefully after this i can jump to 10.10, otherwise it will be upgrade after upgrade. [23:56] snap-l: where in CC? or where in CA? in CA: Bay Area (live in SF-city, work in Mt. View) [23:56] in CC: well, working on OER stuff [23:56] blog post forthcoming [23:56] greg-g: did you see that MSU stuff from Titus I linked you to hte other day? [23:56] CC course stuff for the genome mapping stuff [23:57] yeah! that was really awesome looking [23:58] not sure if that fits your stuff, but figured it was cool none the less [23:59] yeah, definitely related