rsalvetipersia: mahmoh: http://paste.ubuntu.com/642981/00:00
rsalvetiusing a usb-sata disk with a powered usb hub00:00
mahmohpersia: I know, I'm not scared, just don't want to get distracted00:01
mahmohah, 'cause hubs are supported!  that's cheating00:01
GrueMasterOk, I just got to a point where I could reboot with usb-sata attached, and u-boot detects it.00:02
persiau-boot can't tell if the hubs are in the SoC, on the board, or external.00:02
rsalvetiyou shouldn't connect a usb-sata disk directly, board doesn't have all the power to power it00:02
mahmohGrueMaster: you're using a hub?00:02
persiaGrueMaster, Excellent.  thanks for confirming this is a problem with mahmoh's device.00:02
mahmohit's working on my board00:02
mahmohGrueMaster: what's the model/make?00:03
rsalvetibut don't know if u-boot is have the support to give more power to the device00:03
rsalveti   - Interfaces: 1 Self Powered 100mA00:03
rsalvetidirectly it'd consume 500mA00:03
rsalvetilet me try without a hub00:03
mahmohok, powered hub it is00:03
GrueMasterHornettek Rhino.00:03
GrueMasterUsing external power supply (panda doesn't have enough power to support otherwise).00:04
rsalvetimahmoh: yeah, that's the problem00:04
persiaI don't see anything in the u-boot USB code that would indicate it does power level negotiation, but I'm not that familiar with the codebase.00:05
mahmohrsalveti: but wait, it works under linux though?00:05
rsalvetiprobably need to improve the usb protocol to do allow devices to request more power than the usual00:05
GrueMasterI bought 4 at Fry's.00:05
rsalvetimahmoh: yeah, but because on linux the kernel allows it to take 500mA00:05
mahmohlooks bulletproof00:05
rsalvetiso, it works, but you need to power it with a powered usb00:07
GrueMasterThat would be the Defender model.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOCVEVNU-PA00:07
GrueMasterIt has a 5vdc plug.00:08
rsalvetipersia: I don't think it does00:08
persiarsalveti, http://www.usb.org/developers/devclass_docs/batt_charging_1_1.zip has the info on the new shiny for granting up to 1.8A00:08
GrueMasterpersia: USB2.0 or 3.0?  Makes a difference.00:09
persiaGrueMaster, Battery Charging was introduced as part of 2.0, and I believe it was grandfathered into 3.0, although I'll admit that I haven't been paying as much attention to USB as I did 5 years ago.00:10
GrueMasterReason I say that is that the 2.0 plug can only handle x amps electrically, and that may be pushing the envelope.00:11
persiaThere's been something like 5 revisions of the plugs.00:11
persiaBut if the host isn't implemented with a plug that can handle that amperage, it isn't likely to be able to negotiate the higher amperage.00:12
persiaMind you, some idiot might have wired up a port to appear to handle charging without sufficient support, but the legion of iPod owners complaining about burned devices would likely be a sufficient source of complaint that we oughtn't care.00:14
GrueMasterSection 3.5 says the standard A connector is capable of 1500mA.00:15
persia(not to pick on the iPod specifically, but most of the USB power hardware I see in shops that supports higher amperages is labeled "supports iPod", rather than "supports Battery Charging Detection")00:15
GrueMasterA charger can push more if it has a port that can handle the load.00:15
persiaBut that ought be limited at a level u-boot can't fiddle.00:16
GrueMasterMy nook color pulls 1500 if it has the custom microusb cable.00:16
persiau-boot would fiddle the device registers to increase the level, but isn't likely to be able to reach higher than the device supports.00:16
GrueMasterAt any rate, I don't know what current the panda can push out the usb ports.00:17
persiaSupposedly 2A of the input power is expected to be used by the USB ports.  Mind you, that's hearsay: I've seen no documentation about this.00:17
GrueMasterBut it doesn't appear to be enough to handle these drives even with a USB Y cable.  The drives are 160GB rated at 0.56A00:17
persiaI suspect that the ports are likely rated at 1.5A each.00:17
persiaRemember, if the negotiation doesn't happen properly, even a Y cable will only provide 200mA00:18
GrueMasterAh.  So definitely a u-boot issue.00:19
GrueMaster(kernel as well).00:19
persiaLooks that way.  Looks like u-boot doesn't support current negotiation, so if the device needs more than 100mA, then it just won't work.00:19
GrueMasterExplains my earlier headache.00:20
persialinux does have some current negotiation, at least up to the 500mA level.  That said, it may be that the specific USB driver used here isn't implementing it correctly, or something.00:20
NekoXPcheck what is behind the ports00:20
persiaI have no idea if linux can support battery charging: anecdotally folks don't seem to get fast-charge of their media players / phones / etc. from plugging them into Ubuntu, so I suspect it doesn't.00:20
NekoXPusually you have something like an ISL6185XXC there which will be rated for a particular current and for a particular overcurrent protection00:21
persiaNekoXP, Is that something software detectable?00:21
NekoXPabsolutely not00:21
NekoXPbut the pandaboard schematics are available right?00:21
persiaThat's what I thought.00:21
GrueMasterpersia: I have not seen an issue charging my cell from my desktop, so I think the kernel has *some* logic in it.00:21
persiaGrueMaster, Does it charge as fast as if you attach it to a 1.5A 5V supply?00:22
GrueMasterNot sure.  never really measured it, but it appears to be fairly decent.  And I don't think my phone can pull that much.  Need to look at the spec on micro usb.00:23
persiaNekoXP, So, while board designers might do all sorts of things, do you think there's any risk in attempting to comply with the current negotiation specs all the way up to 1.8A in u-boot/linux?  Would it be safe to rely on the hardware to simply not do what was asked if it hit it's limites?00:23
GrueMasterSomething to test with my nook though.00:23
persiaI've pushed 2.0A over microUSB, but that required special HW on both ends.00:24
NekoXPabsolutely do not :D00:24
NekoXP1.8A is way, way over the spec00:25
persiaWhich spec?00:25
persiaAccording to Battery Charging Specification, it looks like a device can expect 5.25V at 1.8A assuming all negotiation is successful.00:26
NekoXPONLY if the USB controller and the stuff behind it complies with the battery charging specification00:26
NekoXPwhich is a very complicated and kinda ass backwards spec00:26
persiaWouldn't a non-compliant implementation not respond to bit-banging to tell it to provide more than 1.5A (or, in practice, really 500mA)?00:27
persia(and yes, the spec is incredibly complicated)00:27
NekoXPI would assume that the panda pmic is supplying port power00:27
NekoXPso check if the pmic supports the BCS00:27
NekoXPand check that it supports it from a *we are the host* POV, instead of the "we are the device and you are charging your pandaboard's battery via the OTG port" which I am absolutely sure it would support00:28
persiaOh, panda almost certainly doesn't support BCS.00:28
persiaBut in terms of adding support for current negotiation to upstream u-boot, I'm unsure how much we care about a specific implementation.00:29
NekoXPit is entirely device specific00:32
NekoXPbut consider this00:32
NekoXPif your system loaded and did not get past bootloader, why would you be plugging your iPhone into it00:33
persiaSure, but if the system loaded, and started the bootloader, I might want to load my OS off my USB optical drive..  Those usually require ~700mA to spin up.00:33
NekoXPbut the maximum in the USB spec is 500mA00:34
persiaUnless one implements BCS.00:34
NekoXPyour CDROM drive will not comply with the BCS00:34
GrueMasterIt will with a usb Y cable.00:34
GrueMaster500ma per port.00:35
persiaHrm.  I've seen a number of one-plug optical drives floating around, which only work when attached to newer platforms.  I had presumed they were doing something like that.00:35
persiaGrueMaster, But that doesn't require BCS compliance: just regular current negotiation (which u-boot also doesn't have)00:35
NekoXPa USB Y cable is not the battery charging specification00:35
GrueMasterCharging spec or not, the question remains of why I can't power a usb-sata drive with a usb Y cable.  Charging my cell is very low on the list, but having working usb-sata is very high.00:38
GrueMaster(and I lost track of this thread when it diverged from that).00:38
NekoXPGrueMaster, quite possibly because at the end of the day the port power provided will never reach the levels you want00:38
persiaGrueMaster, There's a bug in u-boot.  It doesn't do *any* current negotiation.  As a result, your Y-cable is only providing 200mA to your HD.00:39
persiaI'm curious if we want to implement BCS in u-boot.00:39
NekoXPfor instance if you're using Freescale's MC13892 PMIC on a device, using ther VUSB regulator to provide port power, it will supply 100mA and that's it00:39
persiaI think NekoXP is suggesting that this probably isn't a good idea.00:39
GrueMasterIs it a u-boot or platform issue?  If u-boot, it is fixable.  If the platform can't handle the load due to design, that's a different issue.00:40
persiaNekoXP, Even if the software supports current negotiation?  The port can never do 500mA?00:40
GrueMasterSo, simple answer - hardware limitation.00:40
persiaGrueMaster, Both, but in the specific instance of the panda, there is support for 500mA.00:40
NekoXPin the specific case of the board you're trying to make it work on you shouldn't need to NEGOTIATE for current00:41
GrueMasterpersia: if the hw will support 500ma but u-boot doesn't support autoneg, that's a software issue.  If the panda power regulator can't handle it, then it is hardware.00:41
NekoXPyou simply have to configure the host controller, configure the port, turn VBUS on and initialize the device00:41
persiaNekoXP, But USB 2.0 specifies that the device is supposed to *ASK* if it wants more than 100mA.00:42
NekoXPbefore you actually kick the device it cannot draw more than 100mA per spec anyway00:42
persiaGrueMaster, For those definitions of "software" and "hardware", it's a software problem.00:42
NekoXPthe descriptors will say whether it wants more00:42
* GrueMaster will check back for an answer later.00:42
NekoXPand if so the host can grant that by turning on the regulator00:42
NekoXPthere's not really any protocol for it00:42
persiaNekoXP, Right, but what we've discovered is that u-boot isn't lifting the power even when the descriptors request more.00:43
GrueMasterOn a more immediate note, I just discovered panda (u-boot, kernel, whatever) doesn't like the SD to be removed, even when rootfs is on usb.00:44
GrueMasterVery odd.00:44
NekoXPGrueMaster, probably kernel00:45
persiaGrueMaster, Did you boot kernel from SD, or from somewhere else?00:45
NekoXPthere is an option to make the device a little persistent00:45
NekoXPi.e. assume it's there and if not, puke00:45
GrueMasterpersia: Should be irrelevant as it isn't a mounted filesystem.00:45
NekoXPpersia, USB "current negotiation" is down to physics, mostly00:46
persiaGrueMaster, I think linux still uses the boot source as a backing store, if it can.  I might be mistaken.00:46
GrueMasterWorks fine on babbage3.00:46
persiaNekoXP, Except the bit where the OS reads the descriptors and tweaks the regulator to push to 500mA, unless I misunderstood something (in which case, please tell me what I should have read)00:46
persiaGrueMaster, Very odd.00:46
NekoXPa device will not draw more current than you can provide it, and it will not draw current unless you turn it on.. you plug in a USB stick, the USB host controller is providing capability of 500mA (or whatever) to the device 99.9% of the time. if this is controlled by some kind of regulator this voltage can be changed based on power management policy. The USB spec states that an unconfigured device may only draw 20mA suspended (which goes away the moment you00:48
NekoXP talk to it) 100mA otherwise. If you read a descriptor that says 500mA then you may turn your regulator up to 500mA, but in actual fact, most systems just leave it at 500mA and you have no choice really00:48
NekoXPif a device wants 1.8A then it will draw it if you supply it00:49
NekoXPthe real problem with magnetic media, cdrom drives and so on is that they have a ridiculous need for spinup current, which spikes and is probably way way over the maximum most USB regulators provide.00:49
NekoXPas the device gets older, it actually needs more to spin up00:49
NekoXPfrom experience, most board designers don't bother to actually have a configurable regulator00:50
NekoXPit's on or it's off00:50
persiaAha.  I think I understand then.  So the panda apparently defaulting to 100mA unless told to act differently by software is a specific quirk of the implementation, and in general the practice is to pump 500mA while expecting 100mA draw unless something odd happens?00:51
NekoXPit supports 500mA or not.00:51
NekoXPand the reason it doesn't work is your disk is about 6 months old, it has some wear and tear, and the switcher behind the usb port can't handle a load spike as fast as the disk needs it00:51
persiaI see.  So, if my understanding of the issue is correct, we'd need panda-specific code in u-boot that checked stuff and turned up the regulators if appropriate.00:52
persiaMind you, u-boot needs to completely turn off USB before booting the OS, so just randomly cranking them probably isn't ideal.00:52
persiaDo you happen to know that this sort of thing is not required for common i.MX51 and i.MX53 boards?00:53
NekoXPon the efika, vbus controls whether power is on or off00:54
NekoXPit's configured through the phy which some people consider weird00:54
NekoXPwe just turn the damn thing on00:54
NekoXPand this always goes through a hub, which is always powered00:54
persiaOK, so u-boot just scans USB, does it's thing, turns "off" the devices (but the hub is powered), and loads the OS?00:55
NekoXPif you don't twiddle vbus, the hub gets 20mA and it fucking likes it. that's actually not enough to bring the hub up.00:55
persiaRight.  I think I understand.  Thanks.00:58
NekoXPoh, yeah01:03
NekoXPthe other problem with disks is they actually need 12V supplies01:03
NekoXPand USB is 5V01:03
persiaDepends on the disk.  Lots of 2.5" and 1.8" disks work fine with 5V.01:03
NekoXPso there's some stuff on the board to get a12V supply from a 5V one and they kind of take time to work, and it reduces the current, and of course as THOSE components age.. they suck :D01:03
NekoXPdepends on the disk, really01:05
persiaOh, indeed.01:06
GrueMasterI have yet to see a laptop sata drive that needs 12v.01:24
* jburkholder got his pandaboard02:14
armelTesthey anyone have probs with getting the build-essential packages?03:19
armelTestanyone here?03:21
persiaarmelTest, Lots of folk.03:28
persiaFor hich release are you having issues getting build-essential packages?03:28
armelTest9.10 karmic03:29
armelTestany thoughts?03:30
persiaAre you pointing at ubuntu-ports.ubuntu.com in your sources.list?03:30
armelTestidk brb03:31
infinitypersia: By which you mean posts.ubuntu.com?03:33
armelTestyeah im waiting on this device to restart03:34
persiaWell, considering your hostname and my hostname work equally well for karmic, I'm not sure it matters.03:34
infinitypersia: Eh?  ubuntu-ports.ubuntu.com doesn't exist. :P03:34
infinityports.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-ports sure does, though.03:34
persiaBut it's after 29th April.03:35
* persia gets confused03:35
armelTestummm can i just echo "deb http://ports.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-ports/" > /etc/apt/sources.list03:36
persiaYou could.03:36
persiaBut that this works is an accident.03:37
infinityExcept that's wrong.03:37
persiaYou want "deb http://old-releases.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ karmic main restricted universe multiverse"03:37
infinityecho "deb http://ports.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-ports karmic main" > /etc/apt/sources.list03:37
infinityOh, or old-releases, if karmic's been moved.  Right.03:38
persiaExcept karmic will disappear from ports.ubuntu.com any day now03:38
infinityI just meant "wrong" in that it was missing the dist and component(s). :)03:38
persiaIt hasn't, but it's EOL, so there's no reason for it not to have moved.03:38
persiaHence my earlier confusion.03:38
persiaarmelTest, What is your hardware platform?03:39
infinityBe a little more specific. ;)03:39
persiaSupports the ARMv7-A ISA?03:39
armelTesthtc incredible03:39
armelTestandroid phone03:39
armelTestidk is there a way i could find out03:40
persiaWell, EOL for the incredible and EOL for karmic match, but given that platform, I'd want to run natty.03:40
armelTestcall me a dumb ass but what is natty?03:41
infinityUbuntu 11.0403:41
persiaarmelTest, Find out what?  That you have a QSD8650?  I used wikipedia.03:41
infinityI used htc.com, similar result. :P03:41
armelTestyes that is it :-)03:42
infinityAnd then I saw the word "Snapdragon" and died a little inside. ;)03:42
persiaarmelTest, So, karmic is EOL, and there's no support for it at all, plus it's slow and buggy.03:42
armelTestbad exp with a snappy03:42
infinityNope, bad experiences with Qualcomm.  I'll recover some day.03:43
persiaFrom the command line, if you run `do-release-upgrade` you should get upgraded to something newer, shinier, and supported.03:43
infinitypersia: (Which would just be lucid, going from karmic)03:43
infinityThough lucid runs fine on all my armel hardware here, with the possible exception of kernels.03:44
infinityAnd I assume he's running an Android kernel.03:44
persiainfinity, Would it?  The do-release-upgrade manpage is kinda unspecific about precisely where you end up from older systems.03:44
infinityPerhaps a bad assumption, but...03:44
armelTestyeah cyanogen
infinitypersia: Only LTSes provide the option to jump to another LTS, everything else will upgrade to the next release.03:44
infinitypersia: (In this case, his next release IS an LTS, but whatever)03:45
persiaThat's a bug in the manpage then, because it says "upgrade to the latest release", rather than the "next newer release".03:45
armelTesthttp://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/lucid/universe/binary-armel/Packages.gz404 Not Found [IP: 80], W:Failed to fetch03:45
infinityWell, if you run it over and over again, you'll get to the latest! ;)03:45
infinityBut yeah, file a bug.03:45
infinityarmelTest: No armel on archive.03:46
infinitydo-release-upgrade is confused.03:46
persiaHrm?  I thought I fixed that all the way back to hardy!03:46
infinityI bet it would be unconfused if your sources.list said ports.03:46
infinitypersia: Did you fix it for the old-releases case?03:46
infinity(Since there's special-case code for s/old-releases/archive/)03:47
persiainfinity, I summarily rewrote deb lines in sources.list with what I thought was correct based on other conditions, excepting a whitelist (which didn't include old-releases)03:47
persiaAha, which special case might happen after my summary execution of random mirrors :(03:47
infinityarmelTest: echo "deb http://ports.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-ports karmic main restricted universe multiverse" > /etc/apt/sources.list && do-release-upgrade03:49
infinityarmelTest: 20 to 1 odds that doesn't trip the broken codepath. :)03:49
armelTestok brb03:49
armelTestit may be working!!!03:51
infinitySuch excitement over a "maybe".  I like it. :)03:52
armelTestbrb imma try something03:53
persiainfinity, Any idea where that special-case lives?  I don't see it in the update-manager or python-apt code, although I see lots of tests in update-manager to make sure it works.03:53
infinitypersia: I didn't write it, so not entirely sure, I just know it's there somewhere.03:54
infinitypersia: And might sometimes work.03:54
persiaI'm certain it's there, or the tests would very clearly fail.03:54
armelTestroot@localhost:/# do-release-upgradedo-release-upgradeChecking for a new ubuntu releaseDone Upgrade tool signatureDone Upgrade toolDone downloadingextracting 'lucid.tar.gz'authenticate 'lucid.tar.gz' against 'lucid.tar.gz.gpg'tar: Removing leading `/' from member namespcilib: Cannot open /proc/bus/pcilspci: Cannot find any working access method.Reading cacheChecking package managerPreparing the upgrade failedPreparing the system for 03:56
persiaHeh.  Seems nobody ever tested do-release-upgrade from karmic.03:57
persiaAnd, yep, it's marked in LP so that we can't update it.03:58
persiaOK.  Next method.03:58
persiaTry "deb http://ports.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-ports/ lucid main restricted universe multiverse" as your sources.list03:59
persiaThen try `apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade`03:59
persiaThis is more likely to break than do-release-upgrade, but also less prone to failures from the various bits trying to blunt the sharp edges.04:00
armelTesti can do the apt-get dist-upgrade on a seperate line04:08
armelTesti may run outta room04:09
persiaThat works too :)04:09
armelTestlol i only have an 8g sdcard and ummm its 82% full04:09
persiaHrm.  That *might* work, but it might not.04:12
persiaThe packages will be upgraded in place, so they shouldn't take up that much room.04:12
persiaThat said, they all need to be downloaded first, so /var/cache/apt gets kinda full.04:12
persiaRunning `apt-get clean` will remove any cached package files you have, which may improve things.04:13
armelTestkewl i am learning so much!04:13
armelTestthis is awesome. the only reason i wanna do this is so i can develop android apps while driving down the road...04:14
infinityI usually cheat and put /var/cache/apt on a NFS or SMB share when I'm upgrading devices with low space.04:14
armelTestthat is really smart04:14
persiaAndroid still doesn't have a self-hosted development environment?  Oh my.04:15
armelTestit is upgrading!04:15
infinitypersia: It's not meant to.04:15
armelTestwell they have the ndk but i like using eclipse tho04:15
infinitypersia: Though, I imagine at some point it will anyway.04:15
* persia grumbles about silly people using embedded paradigms on perfectly reasonable general purpose computers04:15
armelTestalong with the jdk04:15
infinity(Maybe that point is now, noting the mention of an ndk)04:15
infinitypersia: And preaching to the choir on that one.  You have no idea how long I cursed Maemo failing at being perfectly self-hosting and for NO GOOD REASON, except that scratchbox broke it in subtle ways.04:16
armelTestwhat sux is you have to use vncviewer to load x04:16
infinity(Most things still built fine on Maemo itself, but sometimes things went pear-shaped due to SB breakage)04:17
persiainfinity, even the Maemo that shipped with the n810 was self-hosting, if you recompiled everything in a sane environment once: it just needed a bootstrap.04:17
infinitypersia: I think my N900 still has a Debian chroot with a full scratchbox environment IN THAT... Stop and think about that insanity for a second.04:17
infinitypersia: "Self-hosting, if you re-bootstrap" doesn't quite qualify. ;)04:18
persiainfinity, Consider a reinstall: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/N90004:18
armelTestthat is how linux runs on android chroot04:18
persiaBeats failing to self-host because of design decisions in my book.04:18
infinitypersia: That would be a better sell, if the URL worked.04:18
armelTestthrough busybox04:18
infinityAnyhow, off to dinner.04:19
infinityarmelTest: Good luck with your fiddling.04:19
persiaarmelTest, Oh, you don't run Ubuntu native?04:19
armelTestno its chroot04:19
armelTesti cant run native and still have my phone functionality04:20
armelTestwhich sux04:20
persiaLack or drivers?04:21
armelTestidk never really looked in to it really brb04:22
persiaNo worries.  There's only drivers for a few baseband chipsets, and not so many dialers.04:24
armelTesthttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/Specs/AndroidExecutionEnvironment check this out04:24
persiaYeah, that got squashed.  The mechanism by which it was supposed to work ended up being unmaintained by the Android folk.04:25
armelTestsee what you can make outta it. im just a simple programmer just spreading my wings into other platforms04:25
persiaNCommander and I should clean that up, and make it clear why it will/won't happen, but we keep putting it off because there is some good idea about how to do it which we don't get around to implementing.04:25
persiaAs it turns out, lots of other people are trying to do similar things, which may mean that we can eventually implement it just by adding a couple upstream packages and filing some minor bugs.04:26
armelTestxda has some good stuff on it but its greek to me right now04:30
armelTestcan i just manually delete the stuff from /var/cache/apt?04:34
persiaBetter to use `apt-get clean`04:35
persiaOtherwise apt can get confused and complain.04:35
persiaapt-get clean will delete everything safe to delete in there.04:35
armelTestwell ummm apt-get clean wont work because the dir is locked because its full04:35
persiaSo, let's step back.  Since this is only a chroot, we aren't quite as afraid of bricking the device.04:37
persiaHow did you construct the chroot?04:37
armelTestnope aint afraid of bricking04:37
armelTesthold on ill send you the script04:38
ubot2For posting multi-line texts into the channel, please use http://paste.ubuntu.com | To post !screenshots use http://imagebin.org/?page=add | !pastebinit to paste directly from command line | Make sure you give us the URL for your paste - see also the channel topic.04:39
armelTestsorry son was trippin bout something04:46
persiaOK.  From where did you get /sdcard/ubuntu/ubuntu.img ?04:49
persiaI'm thinking it's probably easier to just replace that then try to upgrade, given the space.04:50
armelTestfrom xda-developers.com04:52
armelTesti could mount any image and chroot as long as i have the dirs right and the arc is arm04:54
armelTestis that correct?04:54
persiaSo, I won't recommend any image that isn't hosted by Ubuntu, because I can't trust that it's really Ubuntu04:54
* persia fails to say anything about http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=98774004:54
persiaSo, there's a few ways you can get a mountable image file using Ubuntu.04:55
persia1) You can download one of the images, and then make it do what you want.04:55
persia2) You can run rootstock to generate a local image (for development only)04:56
persia3) You can run debootstrap yourself, and construct an image04:56
persiaI'd be happy to explain any of those if you like :)04:56
armelTestintresting... i have heard of rootstock. i dont have another arm dev to make an image myself tho04:57
persiaMost folk run rootstock on an i386 or amd64 machine, but you will want to have Ubuntu installed there.04:58
armelTesti do have an external 1tb04:59
armelTestu suppose i could install it on that the live/persistant boot and make an image05:01
persiaBase images are usually less than 1GB.05:02
armelTesti am about to free up some space on my sd card... got vids of my son i can move over05:03
persiaBut they often need 2-3GB uncompressed space, so as long as you have more than 4G on that drive, you should be fine.05:03
persiaHeh, that might let the upgrade work :)05:03
armelTestlol yeah if i didnt mess up this image by rm *.* in var/cache/apt05:04
persia(and running `apt-get clean` post-upgrade will regain most of the space the upgrade needs)05:04
armelTestonly 1 way to find out... yeah the apt-clean didnt work05:04
armelTestapt-get clean05:04
persiaSupposedly nothing in /var/cache is important.  That said, while I expect apt to be fairly robust, I've not tried that.05:04
persiaDoes `apt-get update` work?05:05
armelTestbrb gonna restart my phone05:05
persiaYou may need to repopulate apt's local cache of the available software sources before you can clean up.05:06
armelTestshit this is gonna take a min05:14
armelTestwell my wife wants me to come be a husband... thanx for your help!!!05:16
rsalvetijanimo`: can you trigger a rebuild of wacomtablet? this will fix the ftbfs for it05:58
StevenKrsalveti: Given back.05:59
rsalvetiStevenK: thanks06:00
rsalvetiStevenK: libtuxcap also need a rebuild07:52
rsalveticrtmpserver too08:00
janimo`rsalveti, given back, now that LP is writable again09:40
lilstevieis there a way of configuring the lid open sensor information? I am inverted10:38
lilstevieif I open the lid, it blanks the screen as per my powere management settings10:39
LPhasi'm quite unable to read information in launcpad.net, but is this package https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-omap4-extras-multimedia supposed to be available to natty ?11:45
sijiHi All11:49
sijiAnyone tried XBMC on ubuntu arm ?11:50
sijiMy rootstock build is returning errors like12:24
sijiI: Switching to Virtual Machine for second stage processing12:24
sijiSegmentation fault12:24
sijiW: Bad Bad Qemu, trying second stage one more time (LP #604872)12:24
ubot2Launchpad bug 604872 in qemu-linaro "qemu-system-arm segfaults emulating versatile machine after running debootstrap --second-stage inside vm" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/60487212:24
sijiHow to fix this12:25
sijiogra_, any idea ?12:32
sijifriends ,my issue solved13:19
sijiadded  qemu-arm-static13:19
mahmohmy io tests are still runnning on both boards, now init's behaving but the threaded io is really impacting performance (terminal interaction is slow at best)13:33
mahmohcpu load is minimal, 4-30%, I guess that makes sense - I should check the scheduler though13:34
ogra_note that we default to no-op on all our images13:35
=== zyga is now known as zyga-afk
janimo`Preparation material for tomorrow's Ubuntu developer week, ARM FTBFS session. Feedback welcome :)  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/FTBFS13:56
mahmohwell mine are set to cfg, oops, I need to check to see which kernel is getting loaded again13:59
mahmohbut the server kernel should be deadline scheduler ogra_13:59
mahmoh^ right Daviey?14:00
ogra_mahmoh, thats something the image build scripts should do, if they dont on your images, files a bug14:00
ogra_for preinstalled we can be sure we are running on SD14:00
ogra_for that no-op is the fastest14:00
ogra_thats why we set it to no-op there by default, for server netinstall where you might install to rotary disks, the installer should select the scheduler based on the root device14:01
mahmohagreed but netinstall should install the correct kernel after tasksel and the server kernel should be deadline, which I need to verify14:01
mahmohso if I'm able to check - during - netinstall it'll14:02
mahmohchange the scheduler?14:02
ogra_i doubt there is code for that yet14:02
ogra_talk to NCommander14:03
ogra_iirc on the netinst images the flash-kernel-installer udeb creates the kernel cmdline, it should get code to detect the root device and add the proper elevator option to the cmdline14:04
mahmohmakes sense, if it doesn't do that I'll file a bug14:04
amalgokhello, I would like to know if I can find a Ubuntu for OMAP35x EVM14:39
amalgokmore exactly for AM351714:39
* ogra_ isnt sure we have a kernel supporting that, but userspace will definitely be fine 14:41
amalgokoh ogra, I've seen that you have built a Ubuntu for OMAP35x EVM14:44
amalgokbut the link is dead14:44
ogra_that was loooong ago14:48
amalgokhaha okay14:49
ogra_you should be able to just use the omap3 images but replace the uImage with yours14:49
ogra_(and MLO/U-boot.bin)14:49
amalgokyeah I have my uImage14:49
ogra_see wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/OMAP14:50
amalgokalso mlo and u-boot and x-loader14:50
amalgokbut do you know how to create the SD card for an update of the system?14:50
amalgokI've followed this14:52
ogra_ah, no, just create the SD like described on the ubuntu wikiw14:53
amalgokbut I don't understant how to place my kernel and filesystem into the nand flash then (update)14:53
amalgokah okay14:53
ogra_then replace MLO, u-boot.bin and uImage on the first partition of the SD14:53
amalgokoh okay14:53
ogra_the EVM only has 128M, right ?14:54
ogra_you will most likely want the headless image with that14:54
ogra_yeah, still to low for an ubuntu desktop14:54
amalgokyeah I was thinking about :)14:54
ogra_unity.-2d with idling desktop eats 148M here14:55
ogra_gnome and xubuntu will be similar14:56
ogra_KDE will use even more14:56
ogra_lubuntu could work14:56
amalgokmaybe Matchbox14:58
amalgokbut don't know if Ubuntu support that14:58
ogra_its in the archive14:59
ogra_in universe14:59
amalgokI can't find a version of ubuntu without X1115:01
ogra_the headless image is what yxou want, just follow the wiki15:04
amalgokokay I'm trying15:06
rsalvetijanimo`: thanks15:28
rsalvetiLPhas: not yet, TI didn't release all multimedia components still15:42
rsalvetiI know robclark is working on trying to get it all working, so soon we should have something :-)15:42
rsalvetionce we get it integrated with gst and such, then normal applications will be able to decode using hw acceleration15:43
robclarkrsalveti, display is in bad shape on 2.6.38..  I'm actually starting to work on 3.0..15:49
rsalvetirobclark: and how it's going with 3.0?15:49
rsalvetiso we'll end up skipping natty, but luckly it'll work for oneiric :-)15:50
rsalvetiand if we get sound working out-of-box it'd be a huge step forward ;-)15:50
robclarkI had some issues w/ i2c initially, making DVI not work.. but I seem to have that working now15:51
robclarkHDMI is a bit flakey... at least when you have kernel w/ PM enabled..15:51
rsalvetirobclark: hm, interesting15:51
rsalvetirobclark: are you also porting the drm driver?15:52
robclarkyes, of course ;-)15:52
rsalvetiawesome :-)15:52
rsalvetirobclark: and where are you publishing your work this time?15:52
rsalvetirobclark: would be nice to integrate at the linaro tree once you think it's good enough15:52
robclarkrsalveti, well, I'm trying to get display team to push the DSS patches.. and then once those are upstream I can push the drm driver15:55
robclarkwell.. soon it will have a TILER dependency too (for GEM), but I'll try and keep that separate..15:56
rsalvetirobclark: cool, even better :-)15:56
brendandis oneiric working with the pandaboard yet anyone?16:06
=== zyga-afk is now known as zyga
GrueMasterbrendand: Alpha 2 server images work well, desktop is hit or miss (due to SD card variants).  Current netinstall works as well.16:42
GrueMasterrsalveti: It looks like u-boot is generating two different mac addresses currently.  00:02:03:04:05:06 for bootp and then it looks for panda/pxelinux.cfg/C0A80045 for the pxe config.  pxe should be looking for the file with the mac address.17:46
GrueMasterIt may be doing a reciprical of the mac.  Haven't checked.17:47
rsalvetiGrueMaster: how it's getting to C0A80045?17:47
rsalvetithat's why this will be probably fixed once jcrigby fixes the mac address at u-boot level17:47
GrueMasterGrrr.  Local mirror isn't syncing with ports.u.c properly.  Can't do netinstall with local mirror.17:49
rcn-ee_at_workGrueMaster, i've had good luck with apt-cacher-ng ....17:50
* ogra_ is approx fan17:51
GrueMasterI'm using a combo of apt-mirror & ubumirror since karmic.  Worked quite well until Tuesday.17:51
ogra_ah, its the tuesday bug17:52
GrueMasterFill me in.17:52
ogra_a bug that shows up on tuesdays :)17:53
GrueMasterThis is not Windows!17:53
* ogra_ was just kidding ... no bug to point to 17:53
ogra_we had one where printing didnt work on tuesdays17:53
ogra_its not impossible :)17:54
GrueMasterI heard that there was an issue with debootstrap earlier this week.17:54
ogra_well, with udev and the new /run directory i think17:54
ogra_but yeah, it breaks debootstrap17:54
GrueMasterI'm having to reinstall one system.  Somehow the partitions did a role reversal.  1G rootfs, 156G swap.  oops.17:55
GrueMasterDoing a netinstall from ports.u.c works.  So I need to figure out what isn't getting mirrored.17:55
GrueMasterapt-mirror only copies debs & source, ubumirror is setup with a large list of excludes to skip old releases & arches I don't care about.  Somewhere in there something is getting lost in translation.17:57
ubot2Ubuntu bug 255161 in cupsys "I am unable to print from open office, I tried reinstalling open office but it did not work. I use a brother mfc240c printer and I am running Hardy. Printing from other apps has not been an issue. (dup-of: 248619)" [Undecided,Invalid]18:01
ogra_btw :)18:01
ubot2Ubuntu bug 248619 in file "file incorrectly labeled as Erlang JAM file" [High,Fix released]18:01
robclarkrsalveti, pvr Xorg driver is up and running on 3.0..  i2c still hitting "timeout waiting for bus ready" a lot, which is a bit inconvenient..19:49
rsalvetirobclark: cool, great progress20:31
jeremiahpmcgowan: ping20:47
persiajeremiah, He doesn't seem to be around just now.  Is there a general question with which we can help?20:48
ogra_persia, linux-ac100 is in NEW fyi20:55
=== arun__ is now known as arun_
sgnbit looks like all ocaml stuff started segfaulting recently on Ubuntu's armel... (whereas everything works fine in Debian)21:56
persiasgnb, Do you have a trace (or a bug with a trace)?22:00
sgnbpersia: no, but have a look at https://launchpadlibrarian.net/75113357/buildlog_ubuntu-oneiric-armel.lwt_2.3.0-3_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz22:03
sgnb(I don't have an Ubuntu armel box at hand)22:03
persiasgnb, Hrm.  Indeed, that looks unpleasant.22:04
sgnb(same for postgresql-ocaml, ocaml-sqlite3, oasis...)22:05
persiaYeah, with that level, of segfaulting, I'd expect it for everything.22:05
persiaEven works for Debian armhf, so unlikely to be an ISA issue.22:06
persia( http://buildd.debian-ports.org/status/fetch.php?pkg=postgresql-ocaml&arch=armhf&ver=1.16.0-1&stamp=1309697444 by example)22:06
ogra_bah, sigh, how many more languages are there22:08
* ogra_ waits for apachelogger's spam on -changes to stop :P22:09
persiaI seem to recall that the answer was somewhere above 370 last time I tried to answer that question.  That was a few years ago, so the number can only have increased.22:09
sgnbpersia: but armhf is not native in Debian22:09
persiasgnb, Hrm?  Does that affect how the buildd works?22:09
sgnbpersia: I mean, ocaml doesn't generate native code for armhf (whereas it does for armel)22:10
persiaogra_, also, thanks for the wiki edit: I now have a happy glow.22:10
sgnbso the generic bytecode compiler/interpreter is used there22:10
persiasgnb, What sort of code does ocaml generate for armhf?  Why isn't it native?22:10
ogra_persia, heh, welcome, lets just hope an archive admin is bored enough to review the kernel now22:10
sgnbit generates a portable bytecode, with run with an interpreter written in C22:11
persiaWithout the ability to debootstrap, I'm unsure how much I care about the timing there.22:11
* ogra_ will land the flash-kernel bits and -meta tomorrow 22:11
apacheloggerogra_: couple more two come22:11
persiasgnb, Do you happen to know why it isn't native for armhf?22:11
apachelogger<50 ^^22:11
* ogra_ hugs apachelogger :)22:11
sgnbpersia: because it hasn't been activated22:11
* apachelogger hugs ogra_ right back22:11
sgnb(so never tried)22:12
persiasgnb, Hrm.  Then it *could* be an ISA issue :(22:12
sgnbnative code generated by ocaml compiler on arm always uses soft floats... would that be a problem?22:12
persiaNo, Ubuntu armel uses a softfloat ABI, but it's ARMv7 vs. ARMv4t for Debian armel, which means that some assembly isn't compatible.22:13
ogra_but that would have been a prob since lucid22:13
persiaUbuntu armel is also compiled to thumb2 by default, rather than ARM, which has other knock-on effects in terms of allowable ISA and ABI interactions.22:14
persiaogra_, Depends what instructions are being excited.  A new upstream version might have some improved optimisation, or changes to call semantics that could trigger something.  Needs investigation.22:14
* ogra_ blames toolchain or libc 22:14
ogra_note that the old ocaml segfaults here22:15
ogra_while building new ocaml stuff22:15
sgnb"old"? "here"?22:15
ogra_in the build log you linked22:16
persiaThat's for lwt.22:16
ogra_it calls /usr/bin/ocamlfoo22:16
ogra_which segfaults durign execution22:16
persiaSure, but I'm not sure why that is necessarily "old".22:16
ogra_its not a new upstream, it is what is in the archive right now22:17
persiaDo you happen to know that no new upstream for ocaml-nox has entered the archive in oneiric?22:17
ogra_no, i dont, do you happen to know it did ?22:17
persiaI do.  oneiric has 3.12.0, whereas natty only had 3.11.222:18
sgnbbut stuff has been already compiled successfully with 3.12.0 in oneiric in the past22:19
persiaThat's extra annoying.22:19
persiaBecause it means that some library changed ABI without updating SONAME underneath ocaml.22:19
persiasgnb, Do you happen to know the *first* package that FTBFS due to ocaml segfaulting wildly?22:19
sgnbI think it is oasis22:21
sgnb(according to http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/transitions/ocaml.html )22:21
persiaogra_, Do you know of any way to find stuff that built on 29th June?22:23
ogra_not really, apart from checking -changes22:23
persiaThat's sources, not binaries.22:23
persiaAnd 29th June was pre-DIF, so all the autosync stuff is invisible to -changes22:24
persiasgnb, I really don't expect you to have an answer, but do you happen to know the last package that worked?22:24
sgnbpersia: my guess would be nurpawiki22:25
sgnbor ocaml-data-notation, maybe22:26
sgnb(based on what happend in Debian)22:26
* persia goes to investigate that, with hope, wondering how one could possible find this22:26
persiaAh, yeah, given the essentially random timing of autosync, I have no idea how reliable that might be (autosync is a manual process, which happens whenever an archive admin has ~10 minutes to kick it off, but not less than twice a week)22:27
persianurpawiki build 2011-05-2022:27
persiaocaml-data-notation failed 2011-06-28 with mp segfaults (unlreated failure).22:28
persia2011-06-28 to 2011-06-29 is close enough I'll dig through the versions of build-depends, hoping to find a useful discrepancy22:29
persialibmpfr4 3.0.1-3 -> 3.0.1-422:32
persialibudev 171-0ubuntu3 -> 171-0ubuntu422:33
persiaapt -> 0.8.15ubuntu122:33
persiaudev matching libudev22:33
persiaapt-transport-https matching apt22:34
persiamprf4 looks like a no-op failed attempt to clean up how patches are applied in a format: 3.0 (quilt) package.22:36
ogra_and the others dont look like they could make binaries segfault22:37
ogra_(that worked before)22:37
persiaudev is a cleanup on stopping udevd processes, which shouldn't even be used in a buildd chroot.22:38
persiaNo, but if I don't investigate, I'm not going to be confident :)22:38
ogra_i think its some transient issue from something completely ocaml unrelated22:39
ogra_i would have said libc but that doesnt match the timing22:39
persiaI'm not convinced it's transient, as it has persisted for two weeks.22:39
persiaStill, checking build-essential happens first, then specific build-depends (in part because I have to clean up my script to generate readable diffs for build-deps)22:39
ogra_binutils was upgraded on the 18th ... doesnt fit either22:40
sgnbthe first segfaulting command is "/usr/bin/ocamlfind query -format %v findlib"... maybe it's easier to test it in past snapshots? (à la git-bisect)22:40
persiaapt change is large, but I can't see anything that should affect other binaries at runtime.22:41
sgnboh! but ocamlfind itself changed meanwhile22:41
sgnb(1.2.6 -> 1.2.7)22:41
persiaIndeed.  1.2.7+debian-1 failed, but 1.2.6+debian-1build1 succeeded.22:42
ogra_aha, i though it didnt22:42
sgnbI cannot imagine how this could have an influence, though22:42
persiaMaybe there was a misbuild.22:42
persiaCould "Make Camlp4 depend on Dynlink on every arch" affect the autodependency generators?22:43
ogra_    - add armel to native architectures; note that the Dynlink module is22:43
ogra_      not available in native code there: software using it should take care22:43
ogra_      of this new possibility22:43
persiaAha!  That would be the issue then.22:44
ogra_from the ocaml changelog22:44
sgnbthis was way before22:44
ogra_not sure thats the issue but it could22:44
persiaDebian bug #63049022:44
ubot2Debian bug 630490 in libfindlib-ocaml "camlp4 depends on Dynlink on all architectures" [Important,Fixed] http://bugs.debian.org/63049022:44
ogra_debian bug #34727022:44
ubot2Debian bug 347270 in ocaml "ocamlopt produces buggy arm programs" [Important,Fixed] http://bugs.debian.org/34727022:44
ogra_oh, another intresting entry22:45
ogra_add binutils-dev to Buid-Depends22:45
persiaThat's *OLD*22:45
sgnbyes, way before nurpawiki22:45
persiaOh, but not Fixed old :)22:45
persiaBut yeah, ocaml isn't the issue.22:46
persiaBoth the working and failed builds use ocaml 3.12.0-722:46
ogra_thats what came into ubuntu on may 5th22:46
ogra_afterwards the ocaml transition started22:46
persiaDon't care.  It's not different between oasis and ocaml-data-notation builds, so it is unlikely to be the cause of one failing and the other succeeding.22:47
sgnbthe ocaml transition finished before stuff started segfaulting22:47
sgnb(it finished with nurpawiki)22:47
persiaWell, ocaml-data-notation was built in Ubuntu over a month after nurpawiki, but kinda :)22:48
sgnbit was not part of the "ocaml 3.12.0 transition"22:48
sgnbby "ocaml 3.12.0 transition", I mean "recompile everything because ABI changed"22:49
sgnbafter that, we continued updating things in Debian as usual22:49
persiaStill, I'm suspecting findlib for now.22:49
persiaBut I don't see anything in the patch that is especially exciting.22:50
sgnbthe changes also look innocuous to me22:51
sgnbit might be that the generated assembly for the new version is somehow bugguy22:51
persiaThere's a number of "failed to remove" and "cannot stat" messages in the build log.22:51
sgnbOCaml code shouldn't segfault by itself22:52
persiaShouldn't or can't?  It is native-compiled, right?22:54
sgnbI don't see the difference22:54
sgnbit is impossible in pure OCaml to do a segfault, it's a property of the language22:54
sgnband ocamlfind looks like pure OCaml22:55
sgnb(I mean, except basic I/O)22:55
sgnbsegfaults in ocaml programs usually comes from C code called from OCaml code22:56
persiaThat'd be can't :)22:57
persiaLesser languages aren't defined in a way that prevents such behaviours.22:57
persiaBut some *shouldn't*, because of how they work, for example python or java.22:58
persiaWhereas something like C has neither sort of protection, and segfaults reliably.22:58
persiaAha!  So, the new findlib build is whining about not being able to parse ${ocaml:Depends}.22:59
sgnbpersia: you mean dpkg-gencontrol?23:00
sgnbit doesn't matter23:00
sgnbit is a common warning23:00
sgnband only related to build tools23:01
sgnb(I mean dpkg-dev)23:01
persiaI thought that warning happened whenever one didn't handle the substr stuff properly.23:01
sgnbit happens when the variable is not defined23:02
persiaBut the package relationships are very similar between 1.2.6+debian-1build1 and 1.2.7+debian-1 : the latter adds a recommendation on libfindlib-ocaml-dev23:03
sgnbit does that even for shlib:Depends23:03
persiaI'm of the opinion that one should only use variables in control that one defines, but I'm known for being kinda particular about things :)23:03
sgnbmaybe, but that's not the point here23:04
sgnbif I had access to a faulty box, I would start running gdb on "ocamlfind query -format %v findlib" to see where exactly the segfault occurs23:04
persiaUnfortunately, it seems findlib doesn't have a test suite that runs at build-time, so we can't know that the build worked (or didn't).23:04
* persia tries to run debootstrap again, in vain hope, given the continued discussion in #ubuntu-devel23:06
persiaogra_, In unrelated news, did you see my package?  Any suggestions to improve the README or change the package split?23:07
ogra_well, i would at least add another 0 to the version23:08
ogra_i saw your ping in the other channel, but havent looked yet23:08
persiaPlease don't.  I tried to add enough that when upstream (you) decides to actually release code, there would be no change of conflict.23:08
ogra_wsell, i would just take yours :)23:09
ogra_the code surely needs cleanup, i didnt write it with a generic installer in mind23:09
persiaConsidering that the README isn't complete and talks about killing kittens, that -tools is missing one of the scripts, and all the other issues, I'd hope not directly.23:09
ogra_and i cant imagine many ways to package it23:10
ogra_you split it ?23:10
ogra_what did you split into tools ?23:10
ogra_it should eb a single package with three initrd files23:10
persiaThere's the stuff that belongs in the image, and the stuff that belongs on the machine used to create the image.23:10
persiaGo look.23:10
ogra_one in conf.d one in hooks and one ins scripts23:11
persiaI think I have four scripts.23:11
persiaMaybe five.23:11
ogra_the one additional script isnt for the public ... it will be worked into debian-cd23:11
persiadebian-cd is public :)23:11
ogra_(the one that adds the md5sum file)23:11
ogra_well, i meant as extra code23:11
persiaBut yeah, if you're sticking the control code into debian-cd, then -tools isn't useful.23:11
ogra_sure it should be public23:12
persiaOh well.  libc6 still doesn't install in the chroot :(23:12
ogra_build natty and upgrade ;)23:12
persiaHrm.  I wonder if my wrapper scripts can handle that.23:13
persiaMaybe I'll just do a one-off upgrade of natty to test this one thing.23:13
* persia grumbles at dpkg: error: failed to open '/var/lib/dpkg/status' for writing status database: Invalid argument on a natty->natty upgrade23:50
persiasgnb, I get an immediate segfault return from `ocamlfind query -format %v findlib` on current oneiric/armel23:51
persiaAny hints on what to check, or do you recommend digging through core?23:51
sgnbpersia: run through gdb, and pinpoint where the segfault comes from23:57
sgnb(is it C code? is it assembler? is it a library?)23:58

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