[02:37] <kees> archive admins around?
[02:37] <kees> FAIL: ABI mismatch in lucid Updates: 33 != 32 (linux-meta 2.6.32.33.39 vs linux-backports-modules-2.6.32 2.6.32-32.32)
[02:37] <kees> FAIL: ABI mismatch in lucid Updates: 33 != 32 (linux-ports-meta 2.6.32.33.25 vs linux-backports-modules-2.6.32 2.6.32-32.32)
[02:37] <kees> slangasek: around to fix this? ^^
[02:37] <slangasek> kees: hrm
[02:38] <slangasek> kees: I copied all those packages over together; did I hit the publisher at the wrong time?
[02:38] <slangasek> kees: linux-backports-modules-2.6.32 | 2.6.32-33.33 | lucid-proposed | source
[02:39] <kees> slangasek: perhaps... this is why I've recommended doing everything except meta for 1 publisher cycle, then meta on the next cycle. I will re-run the check (this one was from cron)
[02:39] <kees> is there are archive-admin alias I can send email to? right now I just CC pitti on these warnings
[02:39] <slangasek> ah, I guess I may not have gotten that memo :)
[02:40] <slangasek> there's an ubuntu-archive mailing list
[02:40] <kees> okay, cool, looks like it was a publisher cycle split or something. the re-run check sees no problems.
[02:40] <slangasek> ok, good
[02:41] <kees> *whew*
[02:41] <kees> okay. thanks!
[02:42] <kees> slangasek: actually, wait... it's not in -security...
[02:42] <slangasek> is it supposed to be?
[02:42] <kees> slangasek: it should have gone to security (along with all ABI packages)
[02:43] <slangasek> ok; skaet asked me to copy it to -updates, wasn't sure what was meant to happen wrt -security
[02:43] <kees> slangasek: yes, the tracking bug (807175) shows "Security-signoff" as "Fix Released" which means "Promote-to-security" is Confirmed.
[02:43] <kees> both need to be done
[02:43] <slangasek> ok, copying
[02:43] <kees> see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/kernel-sru-workflow
[02:43] <kees> thanks!
[02:44] <kees> slangasek: you have now had a crash-course in kernel workflow publication. ;)
[02:44] <slangasek> so I see :)
[02:45]  * slangasek notes that the interface between this workflow and the pending-sru page leaves something to be desired
[02:46] <slangasek> copying done
[03:37]  * slangasek makes a face at d-shlibs
[04:10] <infinity> kees: There's the mailing list, there's also abusing members of ~ubuntu-archive in turn? :)
[04:11]  * persia has always been a fan of the archive-admin-of-the-day model
[04:11] <infinity> persia: That only works during work hours for said admin.
[04:11] <StevenK> Timezones tend to defeat that a bit.
[04:11] <infinity> persia: I doubt any of us want to sign up for 24h on-call.
[04:11] <infinity> Well, for 24h in a row, that is. :P
[04:11] <infinity> But we get good coverage between many of us.
[04:12] <persia> I suppose.  Most of the AAotD are generall cooperative as long as it's their day *somewhere*.
[04:12] <persia> y
[04:12] <micahg> infinity: I've never worried too much about hours when pinging the AA of the day :)
[04:12] <infinity> Often, but I wouldn't bank on it. ;)
[04:13] <persia> But asking the AAotD is better than randomly selecting someone from ~ubuntu-archive and abusing them
[04:14] <micahg> worse case, they say no, and you go find someone else
[04:14] <StevenK> I'd suggest not abusing them if you want to actually *do* something. :-)
[04:15] <lifeless> depends on the aaotd :P
[04:16] <infinity> persia: Sure, it was more of an "if the AAotD happens to be eating/sleeping/urinating" thing.
[04:16] <persia> infinity, And after checking the list, there's a significant number of listed AAotDs who don't generally do archive work during their working hours.  Not quite the majority, but getting close.
[04:16] <infinity> persia: Which some of us do. ;)
[04:16] <persia> If you want to use "us" in that context, go sign up as an AAotD :p
[04:17] <infinity> I was using "us" to refer to archive admins. :P
[04:38] <TheMuso> Can anybody clone a repo from gitorious? I am getting connection reset. Seems the website is ok though.
[04:39] <broder> TheMuso: same for me, though the http transport seems to be working
[04:39] <TheMuso> broder: Hrm right, thats certainly an option.
[04:41] <TheMuso> although that doesn't want to work with the repo I am trying to pull.
[04:41] <TheMuso> git://gitorious.org/qt-at-spi/qt-at-spi.git via http gives a fatal error.
[04:47] <TheMuso> Ah the http transport URLs are slightly different.
[05:08] <pitti> Good morning
[05:12] <ion> that.
[05:14] <pitti> cjwatson: nice! so that assumes that $PACKAGE is already apt-gettable, right? that's fair enough, I just wondered if it would be possible for testing to build it with a local deb
[05:14] <pitti> cjwatson: but I guess for that it could create a temporary file:// apt repo
[05:14] <pitti> cjwatson: but anyway, these are refinements I'm able to do :)
[05:15] <pitti> cjwatson: thanks!
[07:37] <dholbach> good morning
[09:08] <cjwatson> Daviey: mm, I don't know, commented on the bug to the effect that maybe Conflicts is too heavyweight - I'm not sure really
[09:10] <cjwatson> bdmurray: 442941 wiki> sorry, not yet, still on my to-do; I'm not sure I see how 349469 could be related to that
[09:11] <Daviey> cjwatson: thanks.
[09:12] <dholbach> @pilot in
[09:12] <cjwatson> pitti: heh, I abused --ppa a bit in my initial version for that, and created a temporary repository
[09:13] <cjwatson> pitti: it should be perfectly possible to support a local .deb; live-build supports that
[09:14] <cjwatson> pitti: I believe it works by dropping .debs into config/chroot_packages/
[09:14] <pitti> cjwatson: ah, so an extra --deb option would probably be handy
[09:15] <pitti> cjwatson: do you want to work on the script further, or do I take it from here?
[09:15] <cjwatson> boggle, that actually creates *and signs* a temporary repository with a temporary key
[09:15] <pitti> thorough :)
[09:15] <cjwatson> pitti: depends how fast you want it to happen :-)  I think I need to deal with the syslinux-themes-ubuntu packages
[09:15] <cjwatson> which is unfortunately not a five-minute job
[09:16] <pitti> cjwatson: OOI, why does that block local CD builds, but works with the official daily ones? isn't that also using live-build?
[09:16] <cjwatson> no, the official ones only use live-build for the squashfs, not for the entire iso
[09:16] <pitti> cjwatson: I think I'll need today for the remaining /run stuff, and release meeting etc., but I should have time to continue working on this stuff on monday
[09:16] <pitti> ah
[09:16] <cjwatson> how about I get this to the point where it can actually build workable images (possibly not today, I need to work on 10.04.3) and then hand it over to you?
[09:17] <pitti> so for testing it's sufficient, as I can just inspect the squashfs
[09:17] <cjwatson> right
[09:17] <pitti> cjwatson: sounds great
[09:17] <cjwatson> I did the bare minimum of making sure that it actually contained the defaults package and its dependencies
[09:17] <cjwatson> mostly I just wanted to check on the interface with you, before it gets published and set in stone
[09:17] <pitti> cjwatson: I need to implement some extra things into defaults-builder anyway for the one remaining thing in the qin spec which it doesn't support yet
[09:19] <pitti> cjwatson: your --ppa is really like "--apt-source", right? i. e. I could use it to point to a file:// mirror on an alternate CD, to avoid downloading the entire thing for each test run
[09:20] <cjwatson> well, live-build does its own caching
[09:20] <cjwatson> but yeah
[09:20] <pitti> ah, so much the better
[09:20] <cjwatson> I don't actually like the --ppa interface right now; special-casing stuff starting with 'deb' is a massive hack :)
[09:20] <cjwatson> but it was temporarily convenient
[09:21] <pitti> oh, sure; but hacking that is easy
[09:21] <cjwatson> I'd rather just support --ppa user/ppaname and have some other interface for extensions
[09:21] <pitti> *nod*
[09:21] <pitti> but it's great to have a script which does the live-build invocation right, it would have taken me quite a bit to figure that out
[09:22] <pitti> but it actually seems to be delightfully easy
[09:22] <pitti> seems all the hard work is already in livecd-rootfs
[09:29] <pitti> jhunt: hey James, how are you?
[09:32] <jhunt> pitti: hi! good thanks.
[09:33] <pitti> jhunt: part of the /run transition is the move from /dev/.initramfs/ to /run/initramfs
[09:33] <pitti> jhunt: we need a small change in upstart for this, in bug 810956
[09:34] <pitti> jhunt: we have a compatibily symlink now, so it shouldn't be broken, but it would be good if we could do the transition before the next lts
[09:34] <pitti> jhunt: it just affects one small part of the code, and is a simple string substitution
[09:35] <pitti> however, it would break stuff if you tried to backport the package to natty
[09:35] <pitti> so perhaps a more involved fix would be to check both directories and ignore /dev/.initramfs/ if it is a symlink?
[09:35]  * Riddell nudges barry into looking at https://code.launchpad.net/~jr/ubuntu-packaging-guide/fixes/+merge/67951
[09:36] <jhunt> pitti: sure, np. we could always get upstart to check for the existence of both directories and use the first it finds for safety.
[09:37] <pitti> jhunt: ah, then it should prefer /run/initramfs/, and fall back to /dev/.initramfs
[09:37] <pitti> that indeed seems to be safe
[09:37] <jhunt> pitti: sure. this whole chunk of code can of course go away once upstart has full state passing :)
[09:38] <pitti> jhunt: can you do this right in the upstream branch, or do you want me to go through the merge proposal/cherrypick steps?
[09:38] <jhunt> pitti: the upstream doesn't have this initramfs+pid file feature - it's Ubuntu-specific.
[09:38] <pitti> ah, handy
[09:40] <jhunt> pitti: I've assigned the upstart part of that bug to me and will try to look at that today/monday.
[09:40] <pitti> jhunt: thanks
[10:01] <Amoz> hi all :)
[10:08]  * Amoz hugs dholbach 
[10:18] <apachelogger> cjwatson: is there going to be a germinate version that can handle kubuntu seeds branches being owned by kubuntu-dev soon?
[10:20] <cjwatson> apachelogger: why dodes germinate need to change?  you tell it where seeds live
[10:20] <cjwatson> *does
[10:20] <apachelogger> cjwatson: -S also works for bzr?
[10:21] <apachelogger> --seed-source= that is
[10:21] <cjwatson> apachelogger: yes
[10:22] <cjwatson> or you can just use the default non-bzr mirror which is the default
[10:22] <cjwatson> er, tautology, but YKWIM
[10:22] <cjwatson> the mirror at http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/seeds/ points to kubuntu-dev for >= oneiric now
[10:23] <cjwatson> and has done for a month or so
[10:23] <apachelogger> ok, thanks :)
[10:33]  * dholbach hugs Amoz back :)
[10:33] <dholbach> Amoz, mvo uploaded your patch :)
[10:36] <mvo> thanks Amoz creating the patch
[10:36] <Amoz> dholbach, which one?
[10:41] <dupondje> Who maintains http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/ ?
[10:42] <dholbach> Amoz, sessioninstaller
[10:43] <dholbach> dupondje, geser and gaspa judging by the source
[10:43] <persia> dupondje, The ubuntuwire team.  I believe geser does most of the updates.
[10:47] <Amoz> dholbach, ah. speaking of bugs, I wish to find a small project (preferably C) where I can dig a little deeper than just spelling mistakes
[10:47] <Laibsch> anybody else having trouble with "sudo pbuilder-dist unstable create" on either lucid or natty?
[10:49] <Amoz> could also be python and such, just as long as I learn something about the debian eco system
[10:50] <dholbach> Amoz, you could try having a look at bugs tagged with "patch-needswork" - maybe there's a problem with an existing patch that just needs some fixing?
[10:50] <persia> Amoz, Have you looked at crash bugs?  Those tend to be small fixes most of the time, but interesting to investigate.
[10:50] <Laibsch> Amoz: are you more interested to package stuff or to code software?
[10:50]  * Laibsch winks at persia, 久しぶり
[10:52] <Amoz> Laibsch, packaging is new to me, and I'd love to learn how to package stuff. Even though I read manuals/tutorials, they rarely prepare one for the real world packaging errors =) However, I guess I'll do more good in the coding field for now
[10:52] <Amoz> persia, thanks, I will try to find some!
[10:52] <dupondje> geser: Would it eventually possible to add the newest debian version in the ftbfs page ?
[10:53] <dupondje> this way we can easly see if there is a new version in debian, which in alot of cases fixes the ftbfs
[10:53] <Laibsch> Amoz: Great.  I maintain a couple of packages and I think I lack some of the skills you seem to have.  We could learn from and help each other if you are interested to co-maintain packages.  private chat?
[10:53] <Amoz> dholbach, will investigate that too
[10:53] <dholbach> geser, do you track bugs for the ftbfs page somewhere?
[10:53] <Amoz> Laibsch, uuh, what skills do you refer to? I'm just a beginner ;)
[10:57] <Satoris> I try to upgrade from natty to oneiric alpha. The update manager starts but then fails with an error stating some packages can't be downloaded due to "403 forbidden". Should it work?
[10:58] <Laibsch> Satoris: try #ubuntu+1 channel
[10:58] <Satoris> Will do, thanks.
[10:59] <dupondje> I dunno if there is any chance of getting permissions to push a rebuild on launchpad ?
[11:00] <cjwatson> dupondje: the permissions for that are identical to upload permissions
[11:00] <dupondje> oh ok
[11:00] <cjwatson> dupondje: what package/version?
[11:00] <dupondje> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/4store/1.1.3-1ubuntu2
[11:01] <cjwatson> dupondje: so you're saying that simply retrying those builds will work now?
[11:01] <dupondje> yep
[11:01] <dupondje> just tried locally :)
[11:01] <cjwatson> dupondje: OK, retried
[11:01] <dupondje> thx
[11:01] <dupondje> going tru the ftbfs list now :)
[11:04] <cjwatson> pitti: could you have a quick look at my debian-installer upload to lucid-proposed?  skaet says we want the 2.6.32-33 kernel for 10.04.3
[11:08] <pitti> cjwatson: looks straightforward, accepted
[11:10] <geser> dholbach: not yet, I plan to try to move the code to the ubuntuwire project (after that filing bugs should be possible)
[11:11] <dholbach> geser, awesome
[11:12] <geser> dupondje: you mean to show if Debian has a newer version? code-wise it should be possible. Do you have any suggestion where to display it?
[11:14] <dupondje> geser: yea indeed, show if there is newer debian version. I would put it next to the ubuntu version?
[11:17] <persia> Maybe just have a small display indicator, which presents a link to the PTS if there is a new version?
[11:17] <persia> That page is already very information rich.
[11:17] <dupondje> or a color ?
[11:17] <dupondje> Think its just usefull to see quickly if there is newer version in debian
[11:18] <cjwatson> pitti: ta
[11:18] <persia> dupondje, Colour where: on the package name?
[11:19] <dupondje> persia: or on the PTS field ?
[11:19] <dholbach> jdstrand, were you happy with https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/sox/+bug/809619?
[11:19] <persia> dupondje, Colour on the PTS field sounds reasonable.
[11:51] <dupondje> http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/644718/ => anyone has an idea ?
[12:00] <jhunt> pitti: I've got a fix for upstart+/run/initramfs in my stuff-and-nonsense ppa, but it might need a prod to get it built any time today :)
[12:01] <pitti> jhunt: a "prod"?
[12:01] <pitti> jhunt: ah, you mean PPA builders are congested?
[12:01] <jhunt> pitti: yeah :)
[12:02] <pitti> jhunt: there, that should be better
[12:03] <jhunt> pitti: I'm having some pbuilder issues over here (including a bug I just found relating to /run :) so would like to build it in the ppa.
[12:03] <jhunt> pitti: thanks
[12:03] <pitti> patch looks fine to me, thanks!
[12:27] <jdstrand> ls
[12:28] <jdstrand> dholbach: I was yes. I thought I uploaded it. apparently I forgot. let me do that now
[12:29]  * dholbach hugs jdstrand
[12:29] <mdeslaur> ls: cannot access .: No such file or directory
[12:30] <jdstrand> hehe
[12:30] <jdstrand> mdeslaur: you caught that huh? :P
[12:30] <mdeslaur> jdstrand: busted :)
[12:30] <jdstrand> :)
[12:31] <jdstrand> dholbach: while I have you. there is a work item for me: "coordinate with dholbach on developer initiatives and create a weekly or monthly list of packages 10-15"
[12:31] <jdstrand> dholbach: I worked on my other work item for developing a process to identify these
[12:32] <jdstrand> dholbach: and have decided to suggest 5 packages per week in our weekly meeting
[12:32] <dholbach> jdstrand, that sounds great
[12:32] <jdstrand> dholbach: I need to find another place besides the meeting minutes to have those
[12:33] <jdstrand> dholbach: is there somewhere that you would suggest?
[12:33] <dholbach> jdstrand, if you give me the link to them or mention them to me, I'm happy to put them into my weekly update about ubuntu development
[12:33] <dholbach> (ubuntu news, omg!ubuntu! and other places)
[12:33] <jdstrand> dholbach: cool. I think I can add them to our GettingInvolved page too
[12:34] <jdstrand> dholbach: thanks! :)
[12:34] <dholbach> sweet - just let me know and I'll include them
[12:34] <jdstrand> dholbach: expect to here from me on monday (our next meeting)
[12:34] <dholbach> excellent
[12:34] <jdstrand> actually, we can have these be 9 days.... you might here from me today again :)
[12:35] <jdstrand> s/here/hear/
[12:40] <jdstrand> dholbach: oh, one other thing, I wrote https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Recipes/PackageSecurityUpdate and added it to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Recipes. a) was that the type of thing you had in mind for packaging guide integration, and b) would you mind reviewing it for me?
[12:40] <dholbach> jdstrand, I'm happy to have a look at it, sure - I'll add a TODO item
[12:40] <dholbach> for the future it would be nice to get it into lp:ubuntu-packaging-guide
[12:41] <jdstrand> dholbach: ah, I was unware of that
[12:41] <jdstrand> dholbach: I might have missed it-- I looked at the Maintenance pages, but didn't see it
[12:41] <dholbach> but getting the content right is the most important thing :)
[12:41] <jdstrand> dholbach: shall I check it in now?
[12:42] <dholbach> jdstrand, it'd require a bit of reformatting (moin vs. ReStructured text)
[12:42] <jdstrand> dholbach: is moin autogenerated from the ReStructured text?
[12:43] <dholbach> no, at some stage in the future we want to retire the Wiki pages
[12:43] <jdstrand> I see
[12:43] <dholbach> http://people.canonical.com/~dholbach/packaging-guide/html/ is the current guide
[12:43] <jdstrand> well, I can check it in
[12:43] <dholbach> I think I even filed a bug for it
[12:43] <dholbach> if you don't mind doing it, I could review the MP
[12:44] <jdstrand> let's do it that way
[12:44] <dholbach> you are a hero
[12:45] <jdstrand> dholbach: heh
[12:45] <jdstrand> dholbach: so, this is what generates the pdf?
[12:46] <dholbach> html, pdf, epub and a whole lot of other things
[12:47] <jdstrand> dholbach: huh, the branch doesn't see to coincide with the pdf I downloaded yesterday
[12:48] <dholbach> oh?
[12:48] <dholbach> do you remember where you got the pdf from?
[12:48] <jdstrand> dholbach: well, yes, for example, "Welcome to the Ubuntu Packaging Guide
[12:48] <jdstrand> " is not in the introduction-to-ubuntu-development.rst
[12:48] <jdstrand> ah, it is in index.rst
[12:48] <jdstrand> ok, clearly this will take me a moment
[12:49] <dholbach> take your time
[12:49] <dholbach> thanks a lot already for getting the content together
[12:50] <jdstrand> dholbach: ok. I grepped for 'Recipes' (as is in the table of contents) and GnuPrivacyGuardHowto (which is in the 'Updating an Ubuntu Package
[12:50] <jdstrand> ' recipe), but couldn't find it
[12:50] <jdstrand> dholbach: where are the recipes?
[12:51] <dholbach> it's a different structure - let me for now just file a bug and review the wiki pages
[12:51] <jdstrand> dholbach: (sorry if I am being dense)
[12:51] <jdstrand> heh
[12:51] <dholbach> you're not, don't worry
[12:51] <jdstrand> dholbach: I'm happy to do the work :)
[12:52] <dholbach> ok - for now you could just make it a separate article and we link to it from the knowledge base and from other articles
[12:53] <jdstrand> ok, so something like 'update-package-security.rst' and then jam that into knowledge-base.rst
[12:53] <Laibsch> anybody else having trouble with "sudo pbuilder-dist sid create" on either lucid or natty? I need a Debian unstable build environment.
[12:53] <dholbach> exactly
[12:53] <jdstrand> I can do that
[12:53]  * dholbach hugs jdstrand
[12:53] <dholbach> awesome! :)
[12:53]  * jdstrand hugs dholbach 
[12:53] <dholbach> alright, I'll take the dog for a walk now - let me know if there's anything else I can do
[12:55] <cyphermox> cjwatson: using libpipeline, how would I go about getting both stdout and stderr from the output of commands?
[12:56] <kenvandine> @pilot in
[13:09] <cjwatson> cyphermox: I think you need an extension to libpipeline.  Could you file a bug report describing what you need, and I'll add support for it?
[13:14] <cyphermox> cjwatson: sure, thanks
[13:29] <jibel> pitti, buxy , about bug 541595, a way I've been able to reproduce during a dist-upgrade was to modify update-mime to always exit 1 and cause a failure during a release upgrade.
[13:29] <jibel> pitti, buxy this made the trigger fail and cause the 'already installed' error
[13:30] <pitti> jibel: oh, nice
[13:30] <jibel> not a dist-upgrade, during a release upgrade
[13:30] <jibel> but that may work with a dist-upgrade too
[13:31] <pitti> shouldn't really matter; anything which triggers the dpkg error message should suffice to test the bug pattern
[13:35] <buxy> jibel: but there are other cases that will trigger this error (other than just a failing trigger)
[13:36] <buxy> Like this one recently: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/apt/+bug/809223
[13:37] <buxy> and where there's no obvious error at all
[13:49] <pitti> buxy: hey
[13:49] <pitti> buxy: the pattern is in place, just need to find/run a local test to verify that it's working
[13:53] <buxy> pitti: I saw your mail, unfortunately I don't have one to provide you, I don't know if mvo got further since we discussed it but he had troubles reproducing it as well
[13:54] <tkamppeter> mpt, hi
[13:55] <mpt> hello tkamppeter
[13:57] <tkamppeter> mpt, I did not see anything of g-c-c starting s-c-p or parts of it. I updated the system several times this week, and now I updated again and what I get is the new g-c-c printer setup tool and no button to add a printer.
[13:59] <mpt> tkamppeter, ok, but at UDS you had a list of things that the g-c-c one didn't do.
[13:59] <mpt> tkamppeter, I don't know enough about each of them to report meaningful bugs about them, but you do. :-)
[14:00] <mvo> buxy: I have not looked into this paricular one, but apt never does dpkg -i directly, always unpack/configure. it might be that the ordering code is confused and its configuring it at the wrong spot (or too early)
[14:01] <tkamppeter> mpt, so the step of getting access to s-c-p in Oneiric is not started yet?
[14:01] <pitti> tkamppeter: still underway, yes
[14:01] <mpt> tkamppeter, my message wasn't about Oneiric. It's about 12.04 and 12.10 and so on.
[14:02] <mvo> buxy: actually this one looks like one of the apt recovery code kicked, I commented in the bug
[14:03] <tkamppeter> mpt, what you need from me now is a list of bugs to work through to make g-c-c having all features of s-c-p, so that someone can so-to-say rewrite s-c-p in C, as far as it is needed?
[14:03] <pitti> FWIW, that sounds like a step backwards to me
[14:03] <barry> pitti: ping
[14:03] <pitti> s-c-p is hardly performance critical, so the python overhead hardly matters
[14:04] <pitti> an exception is the daemon which always runs in the user session
[14:04] <pitti> hey barry; I'm talking, so I'm obviously here :)
[14:05] <buxy> mvo: what represents the grouping between Log started/Log ended ? is this not equivalent to a call to dpkg ?
[14:05] <mpt> pitti, I don't really care *how* the printer settings end up inside the System Settings window, whether that's by rewriting them or allowing Python panels or whatever else.
[14:05] <pitti> mpt: so you prefer keeping the control panel, as opposed to a unity lens?
[14:05] <barry> pitti: :)  hi!  do you have any good references for starting to learn about pygi and g object introspection?  i'm looking at bug 806574, which leads me there, and i need to learn more about it anyway.  well, *is* there any good references? ;)
[14:06] <mpt> pitti, I don't understand the question
[14:06] <mpt> What does this have to do with Unity lenses?
[14:06] <pitti> mpt: so right now we use the c-c shell, i. e. a window with all possible options
[14:06]  * brendand has the same question as barry
[14:06] <brendand> seems not well documented
[14:07] <pitti> mpt: in earlier releases we had the "System -> Preferences" menu instead; personally I preferred that, but in natty this was impractical due to the new unity
[14:07] <tkamppeter> mpt, I could report a bug for each feature, telling for what the feature is good for and how to visualize it/try it out?
[14:07] <pitti> mpt: but similar to the old menus which went into unity, the settings bits could move there as well?
[14:07] <mvo> buxy: a full operation of apt-get, this is why I'm puzzled, there is also no "commandline" information there, I wonder if its something like aptdaemon or packagekit that kicks in here actually violating some locking or something like this
[14:07] <mpt> tkamppeter, I think the g-c-c developers would find that very helpful.
[14:08] <pitti> tkamppeter: do you know what Tim thinks about this? it seems like an exceptional waste of developer time to port and bugfix s-c-p to a control center applet written in C..
[14:08] <tkamppeter> mpt, should I do these bug reports upstream or on LP?
[14:08] <mpt> tkamppeter, bugzilla.gnome.org
[14:09] <barry> brendand: indeed
[14:09] <pitti> barry: I recently wrote https://live.gnome.org/PyGObject/IntrospectionPorting which is a fairly detailled braindump
[14:09] <mpt> pitti, <mclasen_> we're actually working with twaugh to reasonable features shared between s-c-printer and the printer panel
[14:09] <barry> pitti: awesome, thanks.  i'll go digest that
[14:09] <buxy> mvo: maybe it would be useful to add which libapt user is generating the log indeed
[14:10] <tkamppeter> pitti, mpt, I am completely against rewriting the features of s-c-p in C. What I like to have is that the Python code of the s-c-p features gets something like a library or plug-in which various printer setup tools (also of KDE) can use.
[14:10]  * pitti shakes head.. that's what FOSS needs, rewriting everything that's alrady written in sensible languages in C..
[14:11] <pitti> barry: hmm, gtk_list_store_reorder() actually exists in C..
[14:11] <barry> pitti: yep, this code worked fine before the switch to pygi
[14:11] <mvo> buxy: yeah, we have a CommandLine tag for this in history.log now
[14:11] <pitti> barry: ah, there we go
[14:11] <mpt> tkamppeter, fair enough.
[14:11] <pitti> barry:
[14:11] <brendand> pitti - i've seen that, it seems the best resource available atm
[14:11] <pitti>       <method name="reorder"
[14:11] <pitti>               c:identifier="gtk_list_store_reorder"
[14:11] <pitti>               introspectable="0">
[14:12] <mpt>  So on the one hand we have language purity from developers of an OS that has ~0 users, and on the other hand practicality from an OS that does ~0 upstream development.
[14:12] <pitti> barry: so this needs to be fixed in GTK
[14:12] <barry> pitti: that was my suspicion based on something else i read.  where did you find that bit of xml?
[14:12] <brendand> if someone was a beginner to gtk completely they'd sort of need to mix that with another tutorial
[14:12] <pitti> barry: in the gir -- /usr/share/gir-1.0/Gtk-3.0.gir
[14:13] <pitti> brendand: so the fact that this part doesn't work is a bug, not a documentation issue
[14:13] <barry> pitti: thanks.  i'm sure there's a good reason why that's currently non-introspectable, but i don't know enough about this stuff yet.
[14:13] <mpt> tkamppeter, but even if that library existed, each of its features would still need to be exposed in g-c-c *somehow*.
[14:13] <brendand> pitti - sorry, i'm going off on a tangent here
[14:13] <dholbach> @pilot out
[14:14] <barry> pitti: interesting, i don't have that file
[14:14] <pitti> barry: libgtk-3-dev
[14:15] <mpt> pitti, I'm surprised you liked the old Preferences menu. :-) I regard the System Settings window as not perfect, but a massive improvement, for several reasons, including less scrolling and less closing of windows.
[14:15] <pitti> barry: my initial hunch is that it's because it passes an array of ints of unknown size
[14:15] <barry> pitti: ack.  /me apt-gets
[14:15] <pitti> mpt: I like being able to do windows + "mouse" to get to the settings I want
[14:15] <pitti> now, that already works today
[14:16] <pitti> but sometimes it's indeed useful to have a collection of all preferences
[14:16] <pitti> it's just that upstream control-center now makes this exceptionally har
[14:16] <mpt> pitti, there's no reason g-c-c can't be searchable, apart from a lack of planning
[14:16] <pitti> d
[14:16] <mpt> searchable from the Dash, I mean
[14:16] <pitti> mpt: it is
[14:17] <tkamppeter> mpt, so I will report all the features as separate upstream bugs and after that create a master bug which depends on all these bugs. In each bug I will also paste in a piece of text telling to not try to rewrite s-c-p in C or to freely invent this described functionality. I will also CC Tim Waugh and other people (tell me who) to all these bug reports to let them discuss and agree on a solution. WDYT?
[14:17] <mpt> pitti, so what do you mean by "makes this exceptionally hard"? (I'm in 11.04 right now, installed Ocelot on another partition yesterday)
[14:17] <pitti> mpt: my worries are that g-c-c has become pretty much a locked fortress now, and we aren't able to and don't want to rewrite all our configuration bits to be an upstream control center capplet in just a cycle or two
[14:18] <pitti> aside from the fact that this would be completely impractical
[14:18] <pitti> so it'll be a hack either way
[14:18] <mpt> pitti, rewriting them all in Nux and C++ would be even *less* practical!
[14:18] <pitti> mpt: c-c in 3.0/3.2 now forbids external/distro specific settings
[14:18] <pitti> mpt: ?
[14:18] <mpt> pitti, I know, I organized the UDS session about that.
[14:18] <pitti> mpt: and embedded panels pretty much require in-process code and C
[14:19] <pitti> mpt: who said we'd need to?
[14:19] <mpt> pitti, and it was Ubuntu's patch to override that which sparked the discussion about printer settings in #gnome-os this morning.
[14:19] <mpt> pitti, you did, by suggesting that they be a Unity lens.
[14:19] <pitti> I'm in favor of (1) being able to write settings bits in Python or other languages, and keep our stuff, as it also provides KDE frontends
[14:19] <mpt> yep
[14:19] <pitti> and (2) still being able to get a consoliated view of all settings apps
[14:19] <mpt> yep*2
[14:20] <pitti> but if upstream g-c- doesn't want us to add our own stuff, and we have this wonderful unity thing anyway, why not make a lens which shows all available settings things
[14:20] <pitti> pretty much like the old system -> prefs menu did
[14:20] <pitti> and get rid of the c-c shell window
[14:20] <pitti> which sticks out like a sore thumb from the session menu anyway
[14:21] <pitti> that doesn't require any reimplementation -- it's just showing all desktop files with a "Settings" category
[14:22] <mpt> pitti, because that would be punishing users (by making them open and close more windows) because of an implementation detail
[14:23] <pitti> how so?
[14:23] <tkamppeter> pitti, mpt, I also do not like to have "System Settings" in the "Off-Button" menu. As it moved to there I needed a certain time to find it and nearly reported a bug about disappeared System Settings, that about usability.
[14:23] <pitti> whether you open it through a lens or the shell, it's the same number of clicks?
[14:23] <pitti> my train station is coming up, back in ~ 30 mins
[14:24] <tkamppeter> pitti, mpt, what is a unity lens>
[14:24] <tkamppeter> ?
[14:27] <mpt> tkamppeter, it's a black overlay that covers most of the screen and presents things to search or launch
[14:27] <mpt> The things that appear if you click "Applications" or "Files & Folders" in the launcher are examples of lenses.
[14:29] <mpt> pitti, simple example. Every time you disconnect from AC power, the screen dims. You want to turn that off. You open the lens and choose "Power", but it isn't there. Eventually you figure out that it's in "Screen" instead.
[14:29] <mpt> pitti, with a lens, that would be : (1) open lens, (2) open Power, (3) close Power, (4) reopen lens, (5) open Screen, (6) close Screen.
[14:29] <mpt> pitti, with g-c-c, it's: (1) open g-c-c, (2) open Power, (3) click "All Settings", (4) open Screen, (5) close g-c-c.
[14:29] <tkamppeter> mpt, thanks. Such a thing, with a decent icon, not the standard magnifier, would make the system settings much easier to find.
[14:30] <mpt> pitti, the more settings you want to change at once, the greater the savings.
[14:31] <mpt> (It was even worse for the Preferences and Administration menus: partly because there were two of them, increasing the probability of errors, and partly because they were both submenus, increasing the cost of each error.)
[14:33] <tkamppeter> mpt, are the bug reports still needed? Or will we go away from this over-rigid System Settings on the Off button to a lens which let us continue to use any application?
[14:33] <mpt> tkamppeter, this has nothing to do with the Off button and nothing to do with lenses.
[14:34] <mpt> tkamppeter, yes, please report the bugs.
[14:34] <tkamppeter> mpt, if we switch to a lens, we should patch away the System Settings entry in the Off menu or let this entry also open the lens to avoid that users use inferior duplicates of the config tools.
[14:35] <cr3> barry: out of curiosity, have you heard about any problems importing psycopg2 on oneiric? ImportError: can't import mx.DateTime module
[14:35] <mpt> Somebody, please, give me something to bash my head against
[14:35] <cr3> barry: I'm about to try to reproduce myself, just curious beforehand
[14:36] <mpt> tkamppeter, this has nothing to do with the Off button and nothing to do with lenses.
[14:36] <pitti> mpt: actually, it's not totally unrelated to lenses
[14:36] <mpt> The g-c-c developers do not care about Unity at all, let alone lenses in particular.
[14:37] <pitti> mpt: as with a lens, we can easily have s-c-p itself instead of waiting for it to be NIHed in c-c
[14:37] <tkamppeter> mpt, I was only thinking about how in Ubuntu Linux system settings are presented the bnest way, easy to find and conserving the know-how which has made it into the tools in all the years ...
[14:38] <tkamppeter> mpt, NIHed?
[14:39] <mpt> tkamppeter, I am not involved in the design of Unity. I can explain (and just did explain) why settings shouldn't be in the Dash, but I can't guarantee they won't ever be there.
[14:40] <cjwatson> mvo: have you noticed bug 807715?
[14:42] <mvo> cjwatson: I have a look
[14:44] <tkamppeter> mpt, sorry, who is the right one to discuss with about the design decision of how System Settings tools are made available in Ubuntu?
[14:47] <Laibsch> Are all packages that FTBFS due to missing packages listed in http://qa.ubuntuwire.org/ftbfs/? I just tried to build isdnutils and oneiric is missing tcl8.3-dev
[14:49] <mpt> tkamppeter, JohnLea
[14:51] <pitti> mvo: did you see the question to you in bug 806559?
[14:51] <pitti> mvo: I started discussing this with Robert, but I'd appreciate your input which solution is better
[14:57] <mvo> pitti: sure, I have a look
[15:00] <Riddell> packaging guide reviewers:  https://code.launchpad.net/~jr/ubuntu-packaging-guide/fixes/+merge/67951 https://code.launchpad.net/~jr/ubuntu-packaging-guide/02-udd-introduction/+merge/68078 https://code.launchpad.net/~jr/ubuntu-packaging-guide/03-packaging-from-scratch/+merge/68099
[15:00] <nemo> I do wish archive.canonical.com was accessible over https...
[15:00] <nemo> Over here, I have 2 options for updating the ubuntu machines.  ftp protocol for mirrors that support, http for mirror.anl.gov that I fought to get websense whitelisted, or https.
[15:01] <nemo> unfortunately, none of those work for sun java which is only available from archive.canonical.com
[15:01] <nemo> hmmm. maybe archive.canonical.com supports ftp!
[15:01]  * nemo tests
[15:01] <nemo> nope :(
[15:02]  * nemo sighs and copies the file over manually
[15:10] <jdstrand> dholbach: ok, wrote fixing-a-bug-security.rst and proposed the merge just now
[15:12] <nemo> s/2 options/3 options/
[15:12] <dholbach> jdstrand, you rock - will have a look in a bit
[15:12] <jdstrand> dholbach: thanks! :)
[15:29] <cr3> barry: so, I can confirm there's a problem with python-psycopg2 on oneiric when importing mx.DateTime. I tried bzr branch lp:ubuntu/psycopg2; debuild; dpkg -i ../*.deb and that worked. trying pbuilder in case it builds the package differently
[15:30] <barry> cr3: interesting.  have you filed a bug yet?
[15:31] <cr3> barry: not yet, bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/psycopg2 seemed sparse, so I'm waiting to gather more info to report
[15:35] <cr3> cyphermox: is there still a problem with pbuilder create for generating an oneiric tarball on oneiric?
[15:36] <highvoltage> 1/win 20
[15:36]  * cr3 doesn't have the patience to setup an sbuild environment :(
[15:38] <cyphermox> cr3: I haven't tried lately. like I said, I switched to using sbuild following mdeslaur's advice ;)
[15:39] <cr3> cyphermox: security > usability, I guess :)
[15:40] <cyphermox> no, it's not that. It's just as simple as pbuilder, really
[15:40] <cr3> cyphermox: have you read that wiki page? I feel asleep part of the way through :(
[15:41] <cyphermox> like I told you, don't bother with the umt script thing, just the first part of the wiki page; there's something like 2-3 files to modify/create and then you run the commands to build the chroots
[15:42] <cr3> cyphermox: can you remind me of the wiki page url again? google is returning this but this but I vaguely recall the page being different: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SbuildLVMHowto
[15:43] <cyphermox> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/BuildEnvironment
[15:44] <brendand> where do i find extra gobject typelibs?
[15:45] <brendand> looking for GUdev, it's not in /usr/lib/girepository-1.0
[15:45] <brendand> not sure about the package name
[15:46] <cyphermox> brendand: gir1.2-gudev-1.0 maybe
[15:46] <barry> cyphermox, cr3 i use sbuild almost exclusively too, though occasionally pbuilder.  that security team page rocks
[15:46] <dholbach> Last day of UDW (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDeveloperWeek) starting in 15 minutes in #ubuntu-classroom
[15:46] <brendand> cyphermox - in general is it gir1.2-*?
[15:46] <cyphermox> it is
[15:48] <cr3> barry: I'll give sbuild a try once again and I reported bug #811115 for now
[15:55] <pitti> cjwatson: ah, seems I misread the original numbers: the old ibus-pinyin didn't take 15 MB, but just 1.5; apt-get install ibus-pinyin additionally pulls in pinyin-database (14 MB), but that wasn't on the CDs
[15:56] <pitti> so moving to sunpinyin actually caused a 17 MB increase, not 4
[15:56] <barry> cr3: i'll take a look after lunch
[15:56] <cjwatson> pit	ah, wow
[15:56] <cjwatson> pitti: ^-
[15:56] <pitti> cjwatson: so I guess we'll go back to pinyin for the standard CDs if we need to retain Chinese support there, and only use sunpinyin for the Chinese Edition/check-language-support
[15:57] <cjwatson> that seems the only practical choice, from what you've said, yes
[15:57] <cjwatson> (of course note that the installer uses check-language-support ...)
[15:57] <pitti> cjwatson: it seems fine for downloading if you are online
[15:58] <pitti> but ibus-pinyin with ibus-pinyin-db-open-phrase at least provides a reasonable offline fallback
[15:58] <cr3> barry: I'm hoping to have more information or suggest a patch once I get my sbuild environment running
[16:12] <pitti> good night everyone
[16:26] <bdrung> jamespage: eclipse ping
[16:30] <SpamapS> Copyright: 1979-2007, MySQL AB
[16:30] <SpamapS> Whoa.. how long have they actually existed?! :-P
[16:33] <slangasek> SpamapS: heh
[16:33] <SpamapS> thats on a one line shell script.. :-P
[16:33] <SpamapS> one line, 684 chars long :-P
[16:34] <slangasek> clearly someone is confused about copyright :)
[16:34] <SpamapS> heh, I think maybe by now they can drop it.. 'msql2mysql.sh'
[16:37] <SpamapS> Heh.. I'm not so sure licensecheck2dep5 is helping here.. :-P
[16:38] <SpamapS> I think its accurate.. but.. a 3000+ line copyright file is probably a bit too detailed.
[16:38] <slangasek> licensecheck2dep5?
[16:38] <slangasek> where's that from?
[16:38] <SpamapS> slangasek: its in cdbs.. scheduled for appearance in devscripts at some point
[16:38] <slangasek> in cdbs!
[16:38] <broder> licensecheck2dep5> whoaaaaa
[16:39] <broder> that's awesome
[16:39] <hyperair> that thing should go into devscripts
[16:39] <slangasek> no, it clearly isn't, it should do something more sensible than generating a 3000+ line copyright file :)
[16:39] <SpamapS> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=472199
[16:39] <hyperair> slangasek: it does a great job at summarizing stuff.
[16:40] <SpamapS> MySQL *is* extremely detailed in their files
[16:40] <hyperair> i usually start from licensecheck2dep5, and then trim stuff down
[16:40] <hyperair> manually
[16:40] <SpamapS> 3781 ../copyright
[16:40] <SpamapS> hyperair: I think it MIGHT be a little bit crackheaded in this case. ;)
[16:41] <slangasek> is it 3000+ lines of copyright holder names, or is it 3000+ lines of silly per-file statements because it doesn't use sensible heuristics for aggregation?
[16:41] <SpamapS> Per file
[16:41] <SpamapS> There are only 2 or 3 copyright holders.. since MySQL has a CLA
[16:41] <hyperair> SpamapS: i'd rather start from the licensecheck2dep5 output than from licensecheck's raw output
[16:42] <SpamapS> Sun, FSF, MySQL AB, Oracle, and Innobase
[16:42] <slangasek> SpamapS: right; so I consider that a significant bug in the tool
[16:42] <hyperair> CLA?
[16:42] <SpamapS> Oh and NetBSD since they embed libedit.. how lovely
[16:42] <slangasek> because it does exactly what the dep5 critics say they don't want to have to deal with on their packages :)
[16:42] <SpamapS> hyperair: Contributor Licensing Agreement.
[16:42] <hyperair> ah i see
[16:43] <SpamapS> Actually I think its simpler, they just require assignment.
[16:43] <hyperair> that's just CA
[16:43] <bdmurray> cjwatson: I'd rather not do this but I think memtest could use a source package hook refiling some bugs about grub
[16:43] <hyperair> copyright assignment, is it not?
[16:43] <hyperair> similar to canonical's
[16:43] <SpamapS> slangasek: agreed, it should be able to look at the massive chunk of files and use globbing.. and year heuristics
[16:43] <slangasek> yes
[16:44]  * SpamapS hacks a bit on it
[16:44] <slangasek> there's probably enough information there to pick a "default" copyright statement for the upstream source
[16:44] <SpamapS> slangasek: the most common gets the * .. ;)
[16:45] <slangasek> SpamapS: already?
[16:45] <slangasek> yuck
[16:45] <SpamapS> slangasek: no, I was thinking of doing that
[16:45] <slangasek> ah, yes
[16:55] <broder> how much of the variation is from differences in the exact copyright statement, as opposed to the license?
[16:55] <broder> (i.e. differences in year or something)
[16:57] <SpamapS> broder: a lot
[17:04] <kenvandine> @pilot out
[18:13] <barry> cr3: bug 811193
[18:15] <cr3> barry: noticed the email, I really like the dh_python2 for free part :)
[18:15] <barry> cr3: indeed! :)
[18:45] <vikapi> using kubuntu11.04..my rkonq is crashing quite frequently.
[19:03] <micahg> vikapi: you probably want #kubuntu
[19:07] <vikapi> micahg: thought wud report to developers.
[19:09] <micahg> vikapi: then you probably want #kubuntu-devel
[19:09] <SpamapS>   3781 ../copyright
[19:09] <SpamapS>   2567 ../new.copyright
[19:09] <SpamapS> Heh.. progress
[19:09]  * SpamapS plods on
[19:20] <bdmurray> Is there somebody who wouldn't mind sponsoring openssh for me?  I just made a change to the apport package hook.
[19:21] <bdmurray> http://people.canonical.com/~brian/tmp/openssh_5.8p1-4ubuntu2.debdiff
[19:24] <infinity> bdmurray: Sure.
[19:24] <infinity> bdmurray: Sufficiently tested and such, I hope? :)
[19:26] <sladen> bdmurray: simple un-intent?  What if statement was it originally under?
[19:26] <infinity> sladen: un-indent plus a newline!
[19:26] <infinity> (putting it outside the if)
[19:27] <sladen> infinity: yeah, wondering what the if statement was/is
[19:27] <bdmurray> there is a ui.yesno regarding sensitive info in /etc/ssh/ssh_config
[19:28] <bdmurray> and asking whether or not you want to include it
[19:28] <infinity> bdmurray: Have you tested this?
[19:28] <infinity> bdmurray: It looks to me like these lines might just exit straight out:
[19:29] <infinity>     if response == None: # user cancelled
[19:29] <infinity>         raise StopIteration
[19:29] <bdmurray> yes that's true
[19:29] <infinity> bdmurray: Which means your code will never get run.
[19:29] <bdmurray> no, if the dialog box is closed by clicking X and you don't choose yes or no that happens
[19:30] <infinity> Ahh.  Fair enough.  I don't speak apport, so wasn't sure what the dialog responses would be.
[19:30] <infinity> So, None = cancel and back out, True = include private stuff, False = include only non-private stuff?
[19:31] <bdmurray> that's correct
[19:31] <infinity> Mmkay.  Signing and uploading.
[19:32] <bdmurray> thanks
[19:56] <nigelb> tumbleweed: ping
[19:56] <tumbleweed> nigelb: hi
[19:57] <nigelb> tumbleweed: lightning talks start in 3 mins, can you join #ubuntu-classroom-backstage? :)
[20:45] <SpamapS> slangasek: well I'm down from 3781 lines to 2305 ... :)
[20:46] <slangasek> progress!
[20:46] <SpamapS> I've managed to get each "owner" line down to one.
[20:46] <SpamapS> and directories in which all files fall into the same owner are *'d ..
[20:47] <SpamapS> There's a merge operation now that needs to happen..
[20:47] <SpamapS> actually I'm not even convinced thats true..
[20:47] <SpamapS> mysql files are all single copyright holder from what I can see.
[20:49] <SpamapS> hrm.. licensecheck seems to be broken when a copyright spans multiple lines.
[20:49] <SpamapS>    Copyright (C) 1984, 1989, 1990, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006
[20:49] <SpamapS>    Free Software Foundation, Inc.
[20:49] <SpamapS> That produces an empty copyright holder
[21:03] <cjwatson> infinity: openssh is maintained in lp:ubuntu/openssh, and the importer is having trouble with openssh at the moment.  Could you please commit the changes you sponsored there?
[21:07] <infinity> cjwatson: Can do.
[21:12] <infinity> cjwatson: Done.
[21:12] <cjwatson> ta
[21:22] <Daviey> SpamapS: Is this mysql 5.5 or the current package in Debian?
[21:28] <mikewhatever> !regression-alert
[21:31] <mikewhatever> The 2.6.32-33.70 kernel update introduced some Elantech touchpad related changes.
[21:32] <mikewhatever> Relevant bug #780588.
[21:33] <mikewhatever> The touchpad on my Dell Mini 10 is now unusable - its dimentiones are wrong, right click is jumpy, etc.
[21:59] <bryceh> mikewhatever, did you boot to the earlier kernel and verify it is the kernel update?
[22:10] <mikewhatever> quit
[23:11] <micahg> any AAs who know how to copy stuff still around?
[23:13] <slangasek> micahg: there are only two of us in Pacific Time, you could poke us by name ;)
[23:14] <micahg> slangasek: I could, but I didn't want to bother you if you we busy with something
[23:14] <slangasek> micahg: what do you have?
[23:14] <micahg> slangasek: could you please copy thunderbird from security to updates for maverick and natty only, *NO LUCID* :)
[23:14] <slangasek> ack, looking
[23:17] <slangasek> micahg: done
[23:17] <micahg> slangasek: thanks!, have a great weekend
[23:17] <slangasek> micahg: you too :)
[23:29] <SpamapS> Daviey: 5.5