rick_h_yay, django vs sqlalchemy ranting in full effect00:02
rick_h_light the pitchforks!00:03
rick_h_where you get great posts that start with: "Having only used the Django ORM and never used SQLAlchemy, ..."00:03
rick_h_geeze, people all loving the django orm __ based filter crap. Ugh00:07
snap-lYay, upgrade gave me grub errors00:35
snap-lfucking hell00:35
Blazeixoof, what were you upgrading?00:36
snap-lUm, Ubuntu Natty.00:37
snap-lApparently there's some EFI removal that occurs.00:38
snap-lYay, and it's really fucked00:46
snap-lbitching abouot blocklists00:47
snap-lI love it when Ubuntu completely fucks me00:49
Blazeixwow, just a routine natty upgrade? That's scary00:53
snap-lWEll, it was a kernel upgrade00:54
snap-lWhelp, time for a fucking re-install01:15
snap-lLooking forard to re-downloading everything from Ubuntu One. That should be fuuuuun01:15
snap-lGreat... re-install and upgrade completely fucked my machine again03:42
snap-lSo, that's awesome03:43
snap-lI am really getting sick of this shit03:48
snap-lI mean, we ask people to help test this shit, and then abandon them when the new release shows up03:49
snap-lFrankly, this is complete bullshit.03:49
Wolfgersnap-l: Yes, it is complete bs11:30
WolfgerOne of the biggest reasons I'm in favor of a rolling release. That will totally end the "we'll fix it (maybe) in the next release".11:31
rick_h_it's not all roses and sunshine in rolling release land either11:32
rick_h_but yea, come to the dark side and realize that Ubuntu isn't all it's cracked up to be any more11:33
Wolfgerwell, no, but it's better11:33
Wolfgerespecially when the rolling release allows you to accept upgrades at a "testing" or "stable" level, and also allows you to say "no matter what, I want to stay on version x.y"11:34
rick_h_you still end up with broken x.y11:34
Wolfgeror "no matter what, I don't want version x.y"11:34
rick_h_that happens now, you have to keep up with the rolling or else you'll end up with some combo of broken packages/nested deps11:34
Wolfgersure, that is possible11:35
Wolfgerbut it was better than this11:35
rick_h_but a bug like the one up there seems a bit big and should be fixed backwards11:35
snap-lFinally got it working last night11:48
snap-lIt's not a hard fix, but it's also not intuitive what needed to be done11:48
snap-lI don't think rolling releases would help Ubuntu at all11:49
snap-lbut I do think that 18 month support should include fixing shit that broke during said 18 month span.11:50
snap-lThere was a fix committed in there, but it hasn't been released yet. Oneiriieiciiieirieiierieec has a fix released.11:51
rick_h_well glad you're running11:52
snap-lwell, barely11:56
snap-lgrub is still very unhappy with me11:57
snap-lbut at least it boots.11:57
snap-lAlso, searching for hwmatch got me an ad for a Jehovah's Witness dating site12:01
Wolfgerdon't let Jodee find out you are going there...12:01
snap-lDon't worry. ;)12:02
snap-lOK, now things are a little better. Re-installed grub-efi, and it appears to have fixed itself12:02
snap-lMan, what a pain12:02
snap-lI'm not so mad that it happened, as I'm mad that I didn't know how to fix it initially (and did a reinstall because of it)12:03
snap-land I'm mad that it was implied that it wasn't going to be fixed at all12:03
WolfgerAwesome. Now everybody can look up Marilyn Monroe's skirt.... http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/gallery?Avis=C4&Dato=20110715&Kategori=ENT&Lopenr=107150802&Ref=PH/Marilyn-Monroe-statue-Chicago12:23
rick_h_hah, whoops, ctags just hit a 3G db dump file12:31
rick_h_that hung it for a few12:31
greg-gheh, oops: http://artfair.org12:36
rick_h_Service Temporarily Unavailable12:36
greg-gyeah, it is the Ann Arbor Art Fair website, that starts this week (downtown is already all closed off to allow the setup)12:36
brouschFML. laptop hard drive died12:36
rick_h_brousch: bummer :(12:37
greg-gbrousch: ugh, sorry man!12:37
snap-lbrousch: Ugh12:37
greg-gok, everyone, backup your sh!t now. The Michigan LoCo is experiencing a high level of tech failure. You have been warned.12:37
rick_h_hah, so true12:37
brouschi left it in the car last night. it must've melted12:38
* rick_h_ runs through repos doing git push12:38
rick_h_ooh, yea nasty weather for gear outside12:38
greg-gbrousch: eek, yeah, and the humidity12:38
brouschit boots to grub, but grub looks abnormal12:39
brouschit is surrounded by @ symbols12:39
snap-lbrousch: Did you do an upgrade recently?12:39
brouschtaking bets on whther i can recover files i left on the desktop instead of in dropbox12:39
* Wolfger worries about having his gear in the car all day after he checks out of the hotel12:39
brouschsnap-l: the HD is very loud, so i'm sure it's the problem12:40
WolfgerI cannot afford to have my laptop die12:40
snap-lbrousch: Ah, that's indicitive. ;)12:40
brouschlots of clicking and grinding12:40
snap-lThat's pretty strange though. WOuldn't think a HDD at rest would be subject to heat.12:41
brouschyeah, it was hi9bernating, so i didn't worry about it12:42
* Wolfger proposes a test: stick snap-l's laptop in a sauna for 8 hours, see if anything bad happens12:42
snap-lWolfger: Only if you'll keep it company12:43
brouschi should've sprung for the SSD12:43
Wolfgersnap-l: I'll be taking periodic "dive in the pool" breaks. Should I leave your laptop in the sauna, or take it with me?12:44
snap-lWolfger: No, you won't either. No breaks. That's the point. ;)12:44
Wolfgerdifference being, you think the HDD isn't subject to heat. You know I am.12:45
brouschcrap. i'll have to move back to the macbook pro until i get a new drive12:49
brouschi'm using my ancient work desktop now. ubuntu 10.04 was so nice12:55
jrwrensnap-l: WSSE? define please?13:10
snap-lSOAP security envelope13:11
jrwrensnap-l: SOAP is now done via the WCF library instead of asmx, so google "WCF WSSE" and there are lots of ways to make it work.13:11
snap-ljrwren: Oh, I'm sure.13:11
snap-lI'm not a C# expert, though13:11
snap-lWhat's interesting is the person I'm supporting seems to think that because whatever he's chosen doesn't support WSSE, we need to expose libraries that obviate the need for WSSE13:12
snap-lif not, he'll have to patch so far down as to be not worth the trouble.13:13
snap-lWhich kills me because he obviously knows what he's doing, but is getting so tied up with requiring the library to support things.13:14
jrwrenit supports WSSE trivially from the looks of those blog posts13:19
jrwrenjust write a simple client that consumes teh wsse service adn send it to him.13:20
snap-ljrwren: Which blog post are you reading?13:24
jrwrenare you doing wsse plain text over http adn not https?13:27
snap-lhttp://www.frenchcoder.com/content/wcf-ws-security-hell ?13:27
snap-lWe're using https13:27
jrwrenoh, then that doesn't apply.13:28
jrwrenhttp://blogs.msdn.com/b/appsec/archive/2007/03/04/wcf-supporting-tokens.aspx  passing additional security tokens to a service  ??13:28
snap-lErm, not sure. Not seeing the XML out of it.13:29
snap-ljrwren: Appreciate the help, but at this point I think it's up to the developer to figure this stuff out.13:30
jrwrensnap-l: yup, refer him to me if you want.13:31
jrwrenand if it continues, let him and his boss know that I'm available for consulting.13:31
snap-lThanks. ;)13:31
jrwrenif you want to give 'em a map, here is a page : http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa738565%28VS.85%29.aspx13:31
snap-lI don't think he can claim poverty for security support.13:32
jrwrenand the library (WCF) is extremely extensible. so he could write his own support if needed (although might not be easy)13:33
snap-lSee, this is what I wish Java did13:33
jrwrenit does.13:34
jrwrenyou were just using the wrong java library.13:34
jrwrenuse Axis2 instead.13:34
jrwrenonly idiots at giant corps use the shit OOTB with JDK13:34
snap-lMy biggest problem was using wsdls to generate code.13:34
snap-lwhich uses the OOTB Java foo13:34
jrwreni think axis has their own WSDL code gen tool13:34
jrmyhey guys been awhile13:38
jrmyi was wondering what computer language i should learn if i want to make a website but at the same time to write an irc channel and/or server, whichever is needed first13:40
jrwrenhi jrmy13:40
jrwrenjrmy: as many as possible.13:40
jrwrenjrmy: depends on who you ask. I think here people will tell you python.13:40
jrwrenand give those two requirements (and only those two) I agree.  python.13:40
snap-lIf you're looking for a good all-purpose language that won't bite back too hard, I'd say Python13:41
jrmyheh, guess i should of learned it back a year or so ago13:41
brouschto make a website you need html, css, and javascript (if it's fancy)13:42
jrwrenjust keep in mind, its like you just said "money is no object, what car should I buy if I want to move my and my dog from point A to point B"13:42
jrwrenyou are going to get lots of varying answers./13:42
jrwrendo you know any computer languages now?13:42
jrwrenthen my answer does not change :)13:43
jrmyjust had an idea and decided i want to pursue it13:43
jrmydecided figuring out what i need is teh first step13:43
jrmyif it doesnt end up working though.. i dont know how i'll take that13:43
jrmysuppose its always worth trying13:44
jrwrendo you have any inherent interest in any lang before you asked?13:44
brouschthere are pre-built irc servers, so it's unlikely you actually need to write your own13:44
jrmywell for this use i'd need to be able to have multiple irc channels.. and if the site became successful i'd need thousands13:45
jrmyor not...13:45
jrmyidk.. still in theory on how it works13:45
jrmydont think its been done though13:45
jrwrenuse an OOTB irc server.13:46
jrwrendon't reinvent the wheel.13:46
jrwrenunless you are just doing it to learn and play, then by all means,13:46
jrwrenbut if you are doing it for production, make the right business decision13:47
jrmywhats a OOTB irc server?13:47
jrwrenOOTB=out of the box13:47
jrmysuppose i need an example13:48
snap-lyou may also be talking about an IRC bot13:49
snap-lare you looking to host your own IRC service, or just have something that you can program to respond to people?13:49
jrmywhy dont i just explain what i want to make13:49
snap-lthat would be awesome. ;)13:49
jrmywell its for fear that someone else might take the idea and make it happen but whatever13:49
jrmyat least it could be made and i could use it13:50
jrmybut uh.., basically a message/status posting website mixed with irc13:50
snap-ljrmy: If you fear that someone will make something that you make, let me disabuse you of that notion13:50
snap-lfew things are so novel that nobody has thought of them before. ;)13:51
snap-lso something like twitter that posts to IRC?13:51
jrmyso you can post messages on one hand when no one else is on and chat with irc when people are in your circel of friends13:51
jrmyso like a better chatting system if you look at facebook13:52
snap-lInteresting, so a mash-up of Google Plus but with an IRC interface?13:52
jrmyi dont like straight  IMing13:52
jrmyive thought about it before13:52
jrmybut never thought about wanting to make it13:53
jrwrenso like chat.stackexchange.com ?13:53
jrwrenor do you mean more like campfire ?13:53
jrmyat first glance no.. not like chat.stackexchange.com13:53
jrmyyou have a profile and you can talk in irc13:54
jrmybut the irc is where its probably complicated to program13:54
jrmysay you can talk to everyone youre connected to like in facebook and google+13:55
jrmyexcept its not with instant messaging but everyone else alos has this feature13:55
jrwrenso you want to write twitter but more realtime?13:55
jrmybut with both13:55
jrmybut also having them seperate13:55
jrwreni'm lost.13:55
jrmybut integrated13:55
jrmyas it would be teh same site13:56
snap-lI think you want to write Google Plus, but with text chat instead of hangouts.13:56
jrmyidk it might not work as well as i'd think13:57
jrmyperhaps not everyoen would want to be in a chatroom with everyone on their friends/following list13:57
snap-ljrmy: Well, it's about the equivalent of saying "I'd like to learm to program games. I'm going to write warcraft"13:57
jrmyi like teh idea though13:58
snap-lIt's a big task13:58
jrmybut perhaps rewarding13:58
snap-lNot saying you couldn't, but there's a lot of moving pieces to it13:58
_stink_gawd, after all that work, i hope it's rewarding13:58
jrmythats why im contemplating it13:58
jrmymaybe i should ask my friends if they'd want to build it with me13:59
jrmythough doing something like this would be stupid in the first place13:59
snap-ljrmy: Do they know any programming languages?13:59
jrmyone of my friends know a little of python the other works at a liquid web14:00
snap-ljrmy: I wouldn't say it's stupid, I'd say that it's the equivalent of someone wanting to know what time it is, and deciding to build a pocket watch from scratch.14:00
snap-ljrmy: OK, so there's some folks that can help you.14:00
jrmywell we all start small14:00
jrmybut i suppose whatever i want to do of the relevant interests which is electronics i generally would need to learn some programming14:02
snap-lWell, there's something you can do for electronics14:02
jrmyat least to understand how it would work if i didnt write teh code14:02
snap-lIt requires a little mone, though14:02
snap-lmoney, though14:02
WolfgerFTL: help desk via India. FTW: Sexy-sounding young Indian lady with hot British accent.14:02
snap-ljrmy: ^^14:03
jrmyi shall bookmark that one14:04
snap-lit uses a language called "Processing" which is very easy to pick up14:04
jrmywhat do robots usually have?14:04
snap-ljrmy: depends on the robot.14:05
jrmywho makes the.. is it toyota?>14:05
snap-lAsimov was made by Honda14:05
jrmyi forget who makes robots but is a big company14:05
jrmyah maybe theres a couple14:05
snap-lThere's a bunch of robot companies out there14:05
jrmyi suppose python works either way14:06
snap-lagain, robot means anything from small toys to large industrial robots.14:06
* Wolfger needs to get back to^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h start his TwittRC project14:06
jrmyi just need to get off my ass and learn some python14:06
jrmythats the jist of things14:07
WolfgerI had big plans to make an app that essentially turns any Twitter hashtag into an impromptu IRC-style chat room (though not actually IRC)14:07
WolfgerThere are two groups I know of already using hashtags like this. I'm sure there are many more.14:07
jrmyi dont even know what an impromptu is14:07
Wolfgerand no app that I'm aware of really does this14:07
Wolfgerimpromptu =~ spur of the moment14:08
jrmythats what i get for hating english class...14:08
jrmymaybe i should join a community college for robotics14:10
_stink_jrmy: i may have said this here before, but the only way in my experience to learn to write code is to (1) pick something you want and (2) try to write it.14:10
_stink_if you try to write something you don't want yourself you'll never do it.14:10
_stink_and realize going in that it will take you a long time and you won't even use the code you write at first, because it will suck.14:11
_stink_so you'll rewrite it at least once.14:11
_stink_but that's the only way, as far as i can tell.14:11
snap-l_stink_: ++14:11
_stink_so pick the coolest thing you can think of and just try to write it.  start from the very beginning just write.14:11
snap-lI'd also recommend getting a book and starting to learn the language14:12
snap-ltype in the examples, or you'll never learn the language.14:12
jrmythought i suppose i'll need material to make it work if its for a robot14:12
_stink_snap-l: hey, i had a coworker ask me this yesterday - is there a good book for a current C++/Java programmer to learn python?14:12
_stink_those o'reilly books are scary huge.14:12
snap-l_stink_: Yeah, they are.14:12
snap-lI used Dive into Python initially14:13
snap-lit's a little concise, though14:13
snap-land somewhat confusing at first14:13
_stink_i'll point him to it, thanks.14:13
brouschjrmy: Lansing Python Group is just getting started http://www.meetup.com/Python-Lansing-User-Group/14:13
snap-lI do like Learning Python, but I'd recommend getting the electronic version14:13
WolfgerI'm giving http://learnpythonthehardway.org/ a try14:14
_stink_oh yeah, i have another friend that's trying that14:14
_stink_never looked myself14:14
snap-lPartially because electrons have no discernable mass on my computer, and because O'Reilly has some awesome deals on their ebooks.14:14
_stink_and you can search it, i hope :)14:15
snap-lYeah, they're not pricks with DRM14:15
jrmywel i guess whatever i do i shouldnt do it alone.. im no tony stark14:16
jrmyman is it hot.. brb getting a fan and some water14:17
jrmyshould i read my atari booklets and stuff to learn? i have some old stuff that my grand father owned14:19
jrmymight be a bit archaic14:19
_stink_don't bother14:20
_stink_with that14:20
_stink_although it has awesomeness of history14:20
jrmyyeah i thought they were neat14:21
jrmyive got the instruction booklets of a few games and some 2 issues of a magazine14:21
jrwrentwittRC? does that tweet when you drink rc cola?14:21
jrmythe 1st and 4th isue14:21
jrwrenmy advise: stop chatting and go learn python :p14:21
jrmybut i dont have a book to read yet14:22
jrwrenhttp://www.diveintopython.org/  here just read on the web.14:22
jrwrenyou don't need to buy a book.14:22
jrmyok a recommendation was all i was looking for14:22
jrwrenchapter 1 is installing... so if you have it already, start with chatper 214:22
jrmyhad it but ive gone thorugh a few computers so not anymore14:23
jrwrenon linux, you have it.14:23
jrwrenon windows... i guess start with chapter 1 :)14:23
jrmyyeah been using windows.. havent found a use for linux though14:23
snap-lThe more programming you do, the more use for Linux you'll find.14:24
jrwrenno offense, but... then why are you here?14:24
snap-lbut that's for a later date. Start with that.14:24
jrmylol.. because i know i cant find geeks anywhere else14:24
_stink_yep, i installed linux for the first time to write code at home for CS classes.14:24
jrwrenexcellent answer :)14:24
jrmybesides theres no such thing as a windows community well at least i dont think there is.. and if there is theyre probably a bunch of douche bags14:25
brouschWindows communities don't hang out in IRC. They all have Yahoo groups14:26
jrwrenthere are lots of windows communities.14:27
jrwreneven on irc.14:27
jrwrenthere are windows channels here on freenode.14:27
jrwren#ntmojo on ars irc also comes to mind.14:27
jrwrenSTFU and code.14:27
snap-lOur manifesto: http://programming-motherfucker.com/14:28
brouschi was talking to the calvin college CS dept head yesterday. he mentioned this http://scratch.mit.edu/14:28
brouschhe's running a camp for 6th graders using that14:29
brouschyou build programs by putting blocks together. it's designed for animation and music14:30
jrwreni ahte those.14:30
gamerchick02brouch, that sounds like fun. too bad i never had that kind of camp when i was in 6th grade. i went to girl scout camp14:30
jrwrenalthough I guess some people are visual14:30
jrwrenbut this idea that EVERYONE is visual and that dragging things makes it easy is ASSININE.14:31
jrwrenif that is what I was shown at 6yo I would have not got into programming14:31
Wolfgerjrwren: should I call it THC instead?14:34
WolfgerTwitter Hashtag Chat14:34
brouschwell if i remember right, jrmy is a musician and gamer, so i thought it might appeal to him14:35
jrmy_i dont know but i think it disconnected me.. whatever14:39
jrmyok so the browser based irc wasnt working for some reason14:53
jrmyso i downloaded a irc client..14:53
jrmyalso im thinking of getting a copy of ubuntu on my desktop as soon as i get a new video card 'cause the python interface isnt of my liking for windows14:54
jrmyunless thats just what 3.2 looks like14:54
jrmythat and i dont understand why print isnt working14:54
_stink_jrmy: hmm, i'd see what the others say, but i'd stick with 2.7 for now14:54
_stink_but i might be off the python coolness14:55
brouschpython interface?14:55
jrmyyeah its black14:55
jrmywhite text14:55
jrmylooks like windows command prompt14:55
brouschyou mean the windows command line?14:55
jrmyno im running python14:55
jrmyguess i'll get 2.7 and see if there is a difference14:56
brouschyou are running an interactive python session14:56
jrwrenstfu and code :p14:56
brouschthere will not be a difference in colors14:57
jrmyah.. yeah im suppose to run IDLE14:57
jrmythats why..14:58
brouschug, idle14:58
brouschgo for it14:58
jrmyidk im lost..  do i type print "hello"?14:59
brouschanything else will require downloads and pain14:59
jrmy'cause its not working14:59
jrmywhatever im getting 2.714:59
jrwrensteep learning curve. keep trying. stfu and get your learn on14:59
_stink_what jrwren said15:00
rick_h_lol jrwren15:04
jrmyhow old is the "dive into python"?15:04
jrmyif doesnt seem to be a command15:04
_stink_a command?  it's a book you can get online.15:06
jrmyno if.. returns as a syntax error in python15:07
jrmyso i dont even15:07
jrmyat least in 3.215:08
jrmyim sure they changed things15:08
jrwrenits a statement, not an expression15:08
jrwrenbut that is compsci langauge details that shant concern you.15:08
jrwrenyou are doing it wrong :p15:08
jrmyit told me to put this in python or whatever and it gets an error15:09
jrmyso thats why im asking about the age of teh documentation that i was recommended15:10
jrwrenI think that is meant to be in a file.15:10
jrmyshould that run in idle?15:10
jrwrenmaybe this book is not beginner enough.15:11
jrmyi guess not15:11
jrwrenhttp://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Non-Programmer%27s_Tutorial_for_Python_3.0 maybe?15:12
jrwrenI'd say study that last link for a day or two and then move onto diveintopython15:15
brouschis dive into python updated for python3?15:19
snap-lyes, there's a version for Python 315:19
rick_h_don't learn on python3 yet15:24
snap-lso sayeth rick_h_, so say we all.15:25
jrmyso... 2.7?15:25
jrwrenwhy wouldn't you do python3?15:26
jrwrenits been around for YEARS15:26
brouschno web frameworks15:26
jrwrenwho cares?15:26
brouschsomeone who plans to build a web site15:26
jrmyim sure by the time i'll use it, it will15:26
jrwrenbah... ok... see all this b.s. is why I don't do python... learn C#!15:26
jrmyi'd use a language for robots anyways15:27
brouschbut then you have to use ASP, which is as pleasant as ramming a rusty fence post up your pooper15:27
jrmymaybe not a website15:27
rick_h_jrwren: because there's next to no where to deploy py3 to15:27
rick_h_and yea, the only py3 valid web is cherrypy15:28
snap-lOK, I think this is going into the weeds.15:28
snap-lThere's enough overlap between Python 2.7 that when you decide to migrate to Python 3.x, it'll be smooth15:28
snap-lso I'd recommend learning 2.7 for now15:28
jrwrenasp.net mvc is EXCELLENT.15:29
jrmyso should i learn 3.2 or not?15:29
rick_h_it's the rest of it that sucks15:29
jrwreni don't even know what brousch is talking about wrt "ASP"15:29
snap-lconcentrate on this first, and don't worry about if what you're learning is going to be immediately applicable15:29
jrmyi have it installed starting to read it..15:29
snap-ljrmy: Just focus on 2.7 for now15:29
rick_h_the whole "windows server" part, the whole "wooo IDE joy!" part, and the whole "might I get some dev licenses please sir?" part15:29
jrwrenjrmy: I'd focus on whatever you can find the most docs for.15:29
jrwrenthe differences are so little that it shouldn't matter until you are deep into things as a python master.15:29
snap-ljrmy: What you really need to learn is the fundamentals of development and programmer focus15:30
snap-lThink of it not as learning a skill, but learning a process15:30
jrmywhatever.. im just gonan read and learn 3.215:30
snap-llike learning how to meditate.15:30
jrwrenreally?  learning a process?15:30
jrwrenoh, you just mean that it never ends.15:31
snap-ljrwren: yes15:31
jrwrenthat is true of anything, if you want to make it true.15:31
snap-lI learned BASIC as a child, and while I don't use BASIC now, it taught me how to focus and think about development15:31
jrwrensadly, it ends far too soon for too many devs ;(15:32
jrwrenMMMmmmm BASIC.15:32
jrwrenLET A$ = "hi"15:32
jrwrenor was it $A ?15:32
jrwrenwhat was the string syntax on TRS80 ?15:32
jrwrenA$. good.15:33
snap-lUnder Atari Basic, you didn't need the LET15:33
jrmyi wish i were born in an earlier time or if my parents were just rich15:33
snap-ljust DIM A$(100)15:33
jrwrendidn't on newer TRS80 BASIC15:33
jrwrenbut it was always part of the language grammar15:33
jrmyseeing as id probably already know all of this stuff15:33
jrwren[LET] var = value15:33
snap-ljrmy: Stop worrying about what other people did15:33
snap-lFocus on the now15:34
jrmyseeing as my grandfather had an atari which i own now15:34
jrwrenjrmy: did you have a game console growing up?15:34
snap-lyou have the tech now to program15:34
snap-lyou have the materials now to program15:34
jrmyi had a snes15:34
brouschyes rich parents mean their children are born with the sum of all human knowledge15:34
snap-lyou are a product of now, so please FOCUS.15:34
jrmyi might of owned a computer is what im saying15:34
jrwrenso you had parents of plenty of wealth to buy an SNES... they just got you the wrong things :p15:35
snap-ljrwren: Oh FFS, just let the boy code.15:35
brouschi didn't do anything with computers until college, 19 years old15:35
jrwrenSTFu and code.15:35
brouschnow i have the skills to troll jrwren until his eyes bleed15:35
jrmywell at least i had teh interest to use ubuntu and meet you guys for helping me learn a language15:36
jrwrenlol @ eyes bleed... i'm picturing the vampires in True Blood15:36
Wolfgersnap-l: I'm pretty sure it was $A15:37
Wolfgerand you forgot the line number15:38
WolfgerBASIC required line numbers, so you had something to GOTO to15:38
jrwrenzomg! I did forget the line number.15:38
jrwrenAmiga Basic 1.2 spoiled me.15:38
jrwrennot all BASIC required line numbers.15:38
WolfgerC-64 BASIC is the One True BASIC15:39
jrwrensome BASIC was structured and had subroutines.  Amiga Basic 1.2 & 1.3 <315:39
jrwrenwahtever... C64 BASIC is shit.15:39
Wolfger10 PRINT "Hello World"15:39
jrwrenno drawing primitives.15:39
Wolfger20 GOTO 1015:39
jrwrenAtari 800XL BASIC was WAY better.15:39
snap-l<3 Atari Vasic15:40
WolfgerLet us not forget LOGO on the Apple II CS15:40
jrwreni only did LOGO once.15:40
WolfgerI had a class in HS that taught us LOGO15:40
snap-lI have a LOGO cart. :)15:40
jrwrencart for what platform?15:41
WolfgerLOGO would be an awesome language for programming a robotic cart....15:41
snap-lAtari 8Bit15:41
snap-lThat and PILOT15:41
Wolfgerwhat was that you were saying about going into the weeds?15:42
WolfgerSo, long story short: Python 2, stfu and program15:43
gamerchick02sorry had to restart15:58
jrmy_i think i want to hire a programmer instead of trying to lear the code.. just be the engineer and build teh machines16:10
jrmy_mechanics imo is easier to learn16:10
Wolfgereverybody needs to find what they're good at, and stick to it.16:11
WolfgerThat's why I'm a smartass. :-D16:11
jrmy_i do liek robots though16:12
jrmy_i'd love to buidl some16:12
jrmy_but the programming looks to difficult and time consuming16:12
ptenhoopenjrmy_: Me too16:12
=== jrmy_ is now known as jrmy
jrmyhard to say if i could find anyone to do the programming for me16:13
jrmyat least i'd rather have a friend then someone i pay to write code16:13
jrmybut i just got lost reading a bit of the tutorial in the very beginning, so it seems to be a little overwhelming16:15
jrmysteep learning curve indeed16:15
jrmyreally dont know what to do16:20
jrmyneed to do something with my life16:21
jrmycant keep playing viddeo games.. i'll end up doing nothing some more16:21
Wolfger...and suddenly the "Find My Purpose" song from Avenue Q pops into my head...16:21
jrwrengreat, you've become that douche that every programmer hates, that tries to get people to code for free.16:25
jrmywell not for free16:26
jrwrenany idiot can have an idea. executing and bringing it to life is the hard part.16:26
jrwren"EQUITY" is free.16:26
jrwrenbecause... if you can't learn to code, how the fuck are you going to learn to run a business?16:26
Wolfgerjrwren: aren't all of us in the FLOSS community "that douche"?16:26
jrmyidk i guess i need to find a programmer that wants to make robots but cant buidl worth a crap16:27
jrwrenonly the non coders.16:27
jrmyor say screw robots for now and pursue my music career16:28
jrmyseeing as ive had almost 10 years of experience with music16:28
jrmyactually played a show this month too16:28
jrmybut my band breaks up because our bassist has a contract to be a professor in texas for at least a year16:28
jrmyantropology i think is his field16:29
Wolfgeryou can't find another bassist?16:29
jrmybassist for metal that are actually good?16:29
jrmyyou study peopel in that field right?16:30
rick_h_jrwren: ah, thanks for reminding me why I had this guy on /ignore16:31
jrmysucks to not fit in anywhere btw16:32
jrmyidk whatever guess im out.. perhaps i'll talk again if i have any nerd questions or not.. theres always google16:33
snap-lBecause every problem gets solved by bitching at it.16:34
Wolfger"I don't use Linux, and I don't plan to, but you guys are nerds and can help me, right?"16:35
Wolfger"Wow. I've tried to learn programming for 15 whole minutes now, and I just can't program a robot yet. This stuff is too hard."16:36
Wolfgerso incredibly hard, he'll go and find a nerd "friend" to do it for free16:37
jrwrenthat is the same guy from a month or so ago?16:39
snap-lSeveral months ago16:40
jrwrenI didn't connect the two until now.16:40
jrwreni wouldnot have fed teh troll so mcuh16:40
WolfgerI remembered seeing him before. Forgot how lame he was.16:41
jrwrenwe are very welcoming :)16:41
jrwrenbut I think stfu and code is a good motto :)16:41
snap-lAnd of course nobody is going to want to be the first to break the silence after "SFTU and code".16:48
_stink_every time i hope his light bulb goes on.  then it doesn't.17:05
snap-lWow, holy netsplit17:12
snap-lMan, my Sansa really is slow copying17:22
rick_h_um, wow17:23
Wolfger_stink_: open the fridge door...17:24
snap-lwow indeed17:24
Wolfgerugh. The lame "stealing is stealing" argument again17:25
Wolfgerstealing means you take something, and then the original owner no longer has it.17:26
Wolfgercopying something is not theft17:26
Wolfgerreading something is not theft17:26
snap-lCopying things that are not for general consumption is... ?17:27
Wolfgerillegal, but not theft17:27
snap-lbreach o f privacy, no doubt17:27
Wolfgerif I view a movie online without permission, that's like sneaking into the theater... I haven't stolen the movie, though I did watch it without paying for it.17:28
WolfgerI just hate it when they try to persuade people it's wrong via calling it something it isn't.17:28
WolfgerIf I remove the hard drive from your server, I've stolen your data. If I hack into your computer and copy all the files off your hard drive, I've committed computer tresspass.17:29
WolfgerI always want to put too many s's into that word17:30
Wolfgernotice, he's not charged with theft ;-)17:30
brouschrick_h_ scared off jrmy while i was gone?17:37
Blazeixor jrwren, either way, I'm fine with that.17:38
brouschi was really surprised with how patient jrwren was with him17:38
_stink_and i think stfu&c is now an unofficial motto here17:39
brouschi can't. i'm still bringing my system back to life :P17:39
brouschwait, it's done installing. now i need to stfu and copy 200GB of crap17:40
brouschjrmy makes me weep for the future17:42
rick_h_now imagine he's your co-worker17:42
_stink_and lives in NC? :)17:43
rick_h_the thought crossed my mind17:44
rick_h_today I'm getting to try to teach that javascript is in fact code17:44
rick_h_and you can make classes, and wrap function calls17:44
Blazeixdude, JS is for hacking stuff that you can't figure out how to do server side17:44
BlazeixIdeally you'd only use it when you can't figure out how to do it with ASP.NET Webforms17:45
rick_h_ah, that sounds right17:45
greg-gI still can't believe that aaronsw is 2417:45
rick_h_greg-g: yea, nothing makes me feel old like successful damn kids17:46
greg-geffing eh, he's done so much in those 24 years17:46
rick_h_Blazeix: yea, so I guess trying to describe the facade pattern in JS is just too much17:46
rick_h_after all, there's no jquery function for that17:46
greg-gWorked "with him" on a project while I was an intern at CC, a joint project with the internet archive17:46
rick_h_*sigh* I hate django17:48
snap-lHow the fuck is that trolling?17:48
jrwrenI didn't know taht the reddit guy was a founder of demand progress. that is a great PAC17:50
snap-lI swear, some days I just want to disconnect the internet and... well, be off the internet17:50
snap-lSeriously, not everyone has a sacred geode that needs acknoledging17:51
brouschhm, i was actually in #pocoo (Flask) yesterday talking to them about my pyohio presentation. alex gaynor was in there too17:51
rick_h_yea, he's all over the place17:53
rick_h_he's working for quora now, crazy17:53
rick_h_pypy, django, etc17:54
jrwrenquora is built on pypy & django?18:10
rick_h_no, quora is built on pylons and they're checking out using pypy vs cpython on it18:16
snap-lI <3 my boss18:16
rick_h_uh oh18:16
snap-lshe's all freaking out and forwarding this little meet up mail that I sent for coverage to these other managers18:16
snap-lcall was done in 15 minutes18:17
snap-lincluding all of the smalltalk18:17
Wolfgerso.... the other managers all dialed in after it was over?18:17
greg-gbtw, aaron's response: http://demandprogress.org/aaron18:17
snap-lI hope they do18:17
rick_h_greg-g: my only thing is that where does he say wtf he was doing downloading it all?18:19
greg-git doesn't18:21
Wolfgergreg-g: Interesting. I was about to sign the petition, but he looks so bloody guilty in that photo ;-)18:21
greg-gWolfger: :P18:21
Wolfgerrick_h_: does it matter?18:21
rick_h_Wolfger: yea, I think intent is a big deal18:21
snap-lWhat are we petitioning now?18:21
rick_h_I mean he didn't sell the stuff18:21
rick_h_but did they just catch him before the final act?18:21
rick_h_not that I think bad things about hte guy18:21
rick_h_but it sounds a lot like getting caught sneaking cady from the 7-11, but since I hadn't walked out yet, it's ok it's in my pants18:22
WolfgerI think all that matters is that the "victim" is asking for charges to be dropped and saying he didn't do anything wrong.18:22
greg-gugh, must. do. other. work. can't. get. sucked. into. this18:22
_stink_greg-g: no!  blog now!18:22
greg-g_stink_: NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!18:22
_stink_if you don't do it now you'll lose hits.18:22
snap-lMan, what's up with the world?18:23
rick_h_it's falling over18:24
snap-lFirst Newscorp, now reddit... all of the big news organizations getting taken down.18:24
rick_h_hadn't you heard?18:24
Wolfgerthe world sucks18:24
Wolfgerdid he just call Reddit a "big news corporation"?18:24
snap-lWhat next, Internet? 4chan?18:24
rick_h_sounds like he's not been involved in reddit in some time though18:30
rick_h_the whole "reddit cofounder!" is a bit of news blowing uppity18:30
snap-lIt's the "why should I care about X"18:31
snap-l"Important man has something happen" "important to who?"18:31
WolfgerYeah. Same thing happens to Joe Blow, nobody cares.18:34
Wolfgerstupid celebrity-worshiping idiots18:34
greg-gexcept this is big news in the circle of people who care about copyright, access to knowledge, libraries, and publishers18:38
ColonelPanic001I heard reddit and came running18:39
Wolfgergreg-g: yes, but it should be big news regardless of who it was18:40
Wolfger$1M and 35 years in prison for no harm done....18:41
brouschdamn. no response from my old hd18:43
brouschthis will make it a long recovery18:43
_stink_your old harddrive is just screening calls18:44
_stink_call from your cell18:44
greg-gWolfger: it *is* big news regardless of who it was.18:45
snap-lgreg-g: Right, but it gets legs because of who it is18:46
snap-lIf it was just joe random-student, it wouldn't have gotten nearly as far.18:46
greg-gon the contrary, look up the Diebold DMCA case18:47
greg-gat the time, those kids were just some random students18:47
greg-g(full disclosure: I'm good friends with Asheesh Laroia, who was heavily involved, to put it midly)18:48
snap-lgreg-g: Not terribly coparable18:48
snap-lDiebold going after some group of students over voting machines was enough to get noteriety18:49
greg-gThe government going after a person who JSTOR already said "don't prosecute" is news in and of itself18:49
snap-lIf some student got indicted for downloading documents, that would get play on Schnier and Techdirt18:49
snap-lIt wouldn't get the same play18:50
greg-gfunny thing is this isn't on TechDirt yet :)18:50
greg-ginstead, it is everywhere else: http://news.google.com/news/more?pz=1&cf=all&cf=all&ncl=dGlAPFJp2lYoaOM4SurZDouf5YPdM18:51
greg-gand the stories usually lead with "harvard university fellow" or leave out Reddit all together18:52
snap-lTechdirt tends to be more reserved about blowing it's wad18:52
greg-ghehe, yeah18:52
greg-gplus, he had his own legal threat to deal with today18:52
snap-lSeems between Bitcoin trademarking and monkey photos, Techdirt has been targeted a lot lately18:54
snap-lI've been loving the monkey photo case, btw.18:55
snap-lIf there's anything to make DMCA look foolish, it's gotta include monkeys.18:55
Wolfgermonkey photo case?18:56
WolfgerI heard something about this, but really have nfc. What's it about?18:56
snap-lWolfger: ^^18:57
greg-gyeah, that is a fun one19:02
jrwreni support aaron.19:03
jrwrenjust becuase he used wget in a way MIT and JSTOR didn't expect, does not make him guilty of lawbreaking.19:03
jrwrenand if he is... law should change.19:03
jrwrenthey are running a smear campaign against aaron, just like they did assange, because he is dangerous.19:05
jrwrendemadn progress got too powerful19:06
greg-ginteresting theory19:10
jrwreni want to know wtf the grand jury was thinking.19:10
jrwrenand who the hell his shitty defense lawyer was.19:10
jrwrenor i guess it could be a complaint indictment19:11
snap-lI need a new job.19:11
jrwrenblacklist Carmen M. Ortiz19:12
snap-lBoss just sent me a note that she's sorry that she's still in a meeting19:12
snap-land apologized for not joining.19:12
snap-lThe meeting that was 15 minutes... about 1 hour ago.19:12
jrwrenalthough this is a fun story.  "entered a computer wiring closet"  <-- who hasn't done this?!?19:13
jrwrenoh wait.19:13
jrwrenshit, forget I said that ;]19:13
greg-ghah, and now Anonymous members have been arrested, big news day :)19:14
greg-gjrwren: :)19:14
jrwrena shitty day for freedom :(19:14
jrwrenIMO they are all freedom fighters adn we are worse off now.19:15
rick_h_meh, they sure seemed to pick off easy targets and just wreck havoc vs any sort of real freedom fighting19:15
rick_h_"oh look, my script found that xxx is able to be hit via sql injection, let's think up a reason to piss on them"19:16
jrwreni anonymous case sure.19:17
jrwrenbut aaron shartz's actions were much more powerful IMO19:17
rick_h_was there a post with more reasoning?19:17
rick_h_sorry, half following channel19:17
jrwrenjust facts AFAICT19:17
jrwreni want to know wtf MIT doesn't lock its closet doors.19:18
jrwrenIMO its MITs fault for not appropriately securing their net19:18
rick_h_oh please, so the guy walks around planting gear on the network and he's ok?19:19
jrwrenopinions like imajoebob @ http://crookedtimber.org/2011/07/19/aaron-swartz-indicted/ make me sick.19:19
jrwrenits not illegal.19:19
rick_h_I don't get that. "Well, work doesn't block porn sites so I thought I could bitorrent it all to my laptop I brought in onto the wireless"19:19
jrwrenalso not illegal.19:20
brouschjrwren: and it's your fault you were raped for wearing that slutty dress19:20
jrwrenalthough you'll probably lose your job.19:20
jrwrenbrousch: strawman. useless. stupid.19:20
rick_h_meh, it's clear he knew he was messing around19:20
rick_h_the whole "I didn't think I'd get caught" is for the birds19:20
jrwrenits not illegal to conciel your activity or to plug into a network jack.19:21
jrwrenfind me a law he broke.19:21
jrwrenI can't wait to see how this plays out.19:21
rick_h_it is illegal to get a hold of material he didn't pay for19:21
rick_h_if I get a hold of the itunes music library and don't resell it doesn't mean I'm not illegal19:21
jrwrenit is?19:21
greg-gif anything it is a breach of a TOS19:22
jrwrencriminal copyright violation... yeah, I guess so.19:22
rick_h_"well, the truck with all the stuff wasn't locked. So I just parked the truck in my driveway, nothing's missing thogh so we're cool"19:22
jrwrenrick_h_: strawman. useless. stupid.19:22
greg-gand potentially (C), but I'm not sure if what he downloaded was protected by copyright or not19:22
rick_h_saying MIT should have bio security network closets is stupid19:22
jrwrena locked door with a key would at least make it breaking and entering19:22
jrwrensoudns like they don't have locked doors!!!19:22
jrwrenI never said bio sec.19:23
jrwrenI said lock the door19:23
rick_h_no, they've got security cameras and sign in19:23
rick_h_that he evaded19:23
jrwrenI didn't read that.19:23
jrwrenlink please.19:23
jjessew/ bike helmet according to the kotke article19:23
jrwrenconcieling identity with a bike helmet is not illegal.19:23
jjesseso he must have known he was doing something "wrong"19:23
rick_h_it was the link you sent me19:23
jjesseotherwise why hide?19:23
jrwrenzomg, I wore a hate and sunglasses, so I must have known I was doing something "wrong" its not illegal.19:23
jrwrenamerican's have no sense of thier own rights. it makes me sick.19:24
jjessehat and sunglasses is different than having a bike helmet19:24
rick_h_I just mean that a lock != security19:24
jrwrenjjesse: he has a right to hide himself.19:24
jjesseblock your face and using the venilation holes to navigate19:24
rick_h_having a process/policy can count19:24
jrwrenrick_h_: legally, I think it is.19:24
jrwrenrick_h_: legally its B&E.19:24
rick_h_ok, then fine19:24
rick_h_then he B&E knowingly and is a douche for that :P19:25
jrwrenit will plea out and we will never know how the law falls on these things.19:25
jrwrenIMO, he is a hero.19:25
rick_h_ok, well I want your respect, so I'm going to see if I can B&E into my network cage here and get me some good files. brb19:25
snap-l /me would liek to remind everone of his hay allergies19:26
snap-ltoo many strawmen in here19:26
jrwrenis that what it is this week? my allergies have been going NUTS since sunday... either that, or I've got a  cold19:27
snap-lreferring to the arguments in here. ;P\19:27
greg-gjust in case you all didn't see JSTOR's comments: http://about.jstor.org/news-events/news/jstor-statement-misuse-incident-and-criminal-case19:32
jcastrohey rick_h_ you use instapaper right?19:34
jrwrenwhoa, it was a MA grand jury!19:34
snap-ljcastro: I use instapaper.19:35
jrwrenwow, a good lawyer would have a field day with this.19:35
jrwreni hope it gets thrown out.19:35
jcastrohow do you save a bunch of pages at once?19:35
snap-lOne at a time19:36
snap-lI'm not sure what you mean, though.19:36
jcastroso basicall I want to put this entire thing on my kindle: http://www.unet.univie.ac.at/~a0000265/Spec/Beasts.html19:37
snap-lOh man19:37
snap-lThe only way I now of is to use something like ... what the hell is the nameof that program that begins with a C19:37
snap-lcreates eBooks19:37
snap-land it'll look like shit once it gets there19:38
snap-lNice, almost done syncing with Ubuntu 119:44
snap-lPro tip: use a wired cable. ;)19:44
greg-gas apposed to an unwired cable?19:45
snap-lwifi, fool. :)19:45
jrwrenwifi sucks.19:48
jrwreni use wired whenever possible.19:48
rick_h_jcastro: not any more, I just use bookie19:50
greg-gword, bookie's readable is pretty nice19:51
rick_h_I want to spend some time getting some default css on there soon to help clean it up a bit19:51
rick_h_but that's for 0.419:52
* greg-g nods19:52
snap-lHow do you use ipython as a debugger?20:19
snap-lIU'm not having any luck with %run -d20:19
snap-lAh, figured it out20:21
snap-l%run -d script.py20:21
snap-lAlso realizing that using h as a vairable is pretty dumb20:21
brouschman, 10.04 is so nice. why are we getting rid of it again?20:23
snap-lbrousch: progress20:24
brouschthe only good thing about dead hard drives is that it gives me another chance to practice installing eclipse+aptana+pydev+android dev+eclipse plugin20:58
snap-lYeah, that's... um... bonus?21:00
brouschandroid dev has many layers, like an onion21:00
brouschoh, and phonegap21:01
greg-gok, where is the bug report for Unity where it complains about windows going all the ef over the place when you go from dual monitor to single?21:13
jcastrosmoser: man, I just can't catch a break22:37
jcastrothe intel-only one of that is probably badass. :-/22:37
jrwrenbut i3 1.3Mhz? that is a dog.23:03
jrwrenits target market is mac book air alternative?23:03
Dekkardif that is a dog... what is a p111 800?23:13
Dekkardthat is still to advanced..23:14
Dekkard its a prion23:14

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