[00:02] yay, django vs sqlalchemy ranting in full effect [00:03] light the pitchforks! [00:03] where you get great posts that start with: "Having only used the Django ORM and never used SQLAlchemy, ..." [00:03] *sigh* [00:07] geeze, people all loving the django orm __ based filter crap. Ugh [00:11] Ugh [00:35] Yay, upgrade gave me grub errors [00:35] fucking hell [00:36] oof, what were you upgrading? [00:37] Um, Ubuntu Natty. [00:38] Apparently there's some EFI removal that occurs. [00:46] Yay, and it's really fucked [00:47] bitching abouot blocklists [00:49] I love it when Ubuntu completely fucks me [00:53] wow, just a routine natty upgrade? That's scary [00:54] WEll, it was a kernel upgrade [01:15] Whelp, time for a fucking re-install [01:15] (yay) [01:15] Looking forard to re-downloading everything from Ubuntu One. That should be fuuuuun [01:48] <_stink_> :/ [03:42] Great... re-install and upgrade completely fucked my machine again [03:43] So, that's awesome [03:48] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/natty/+source/linux/+bug/800910/comments/3 [03:48] I am really getting sick of this shit [03:49] I mean, we ask people to help test this shit, and then abandon them when the new release shows up [03:49] Frankly, this is complete bullshit. [11:23] morning [11:29] morning [11:30] snap-l: Yes, it is complete bs [11:31] One of the biggest reasons I'm in favor of a rolling release. That will totally end the "we'll fix it (maybe) in the next release". [11:32] it's not all roses and sunshine in rolling release land either [11:33] but yea, come to the dark side and realize that Ubuntu isn't all it's cracked up to be any more [11:33] well, no, but it's better [11:34] especially when the rolling release allows you to accept upgrades at a "testing" or "stable" level, and also allows you to say "no matter what, I want to stay on version x.y" [11:34] you still end up with broken x.y [11:34] or "no matter what, I don't want version x.y" [11:34] that happens now, you have to keep up with the rolling or else you'll end up with some combo of broken packages/nested deps [11:35] sure, that is possible [11:35] BTDT [11:35] but it was better than this [11:35] but a bug like the one up there seems a bit big and should be fixed backwards [11:48] Finally got it working last night [11:48] It's not a hard fix, but it's also not intuitive what needed to be done [11:49] I don't think rolling releases would help Ubuntu at all [11:50] but I do think that 18 month support should include fixing shit that broke during said 18 month span. [11:51] There was a fix committed in there, but it hasn't been released yet. Oneiriieiciiieirieiierieec has a fix released. [11:52] well glad you're running [11:56] well, barely [11:57] grub is still very unhappy with me [11:57] but at least it boots. [12:01] Also, searching for hwmatch got me an ad for a Jehovah's Witness dating site [12:01] jwmatch [12:01] :-D [12:01] don't let Jodee find out you are going there... [12:02] Don't worry. ;) [12:02] OK, now things are a little better. Re-installed grub-efi, and it appears to have fixed itself [12:02] Man, what a pain [12:03] I'm not so mad that it happened, as I'm mad that I didn't know how to fix it initially (and did a reinstall because of it) [12:03] and I'm mad that it was implied that it wasn't going to be fixed at all [12:23] Awesome. Now everybody can look up Marilyn Monroe's skirt.... http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/gallery?Avis=C4&Dato=20110715&Kategori=ENT&Lopenr=107150802&Ref=PH/Marilyn-Monroe-statue-Chicago [12:31] hah, whoops, ctags just hit a 3G db dump file [12:31] that hung it for a few [12:36] heh, oops: http://artfair.org [12:36] Service Temporarily Unavailable [12:36] ? [12:36] yeah, it is the Ann Arbor Art Fair website, that starts this week (downtown is already all closed off to allow the setup) [12:36] FML. laptop hard drive died [12:37] brousch: bummer :( [12:37] brousch: ugh, sorry man! [12:37] brousch: Ugh [12:37] ok, everyone, backup your sh!t now. The Michigan LoCo is experiencing a high level of tech failure. You have been warned. [12:37] hah, so true [12:38] i left it in the car last night. it must've melted [12:38] * rick_h_ runs through repos doing git push [12:38] ooh, yea nasty weather for gear outside [12:38] brousch: eek, yeah, and the humidity [12:39] it boots to grub, but grub looks abnormal [12:39] it is surrounded by @ symbols [12:39] brousch: Did you do an upgrade recently? [12:39] taking bets on whther i can recover files i left on the desktop instead of in dropbox [12:39] * Wolfger worries about having his gear in the car all day after he checks out of the hotel [12:40] snap-l: the HD is very loud, so i'm sure it's the problem [12:40] I cannot afford to have my laptop die [12:40] brousch: Ah, that's indicitive. ;) [12:40] lots of clicking and grinding [12:40] :( [12:41] That's pretty strange though. WOuldn't think a HDD at rest would be subject to heat. [12:42] yeah, it was hi9bernating, so i didn't worry about it [12:42] * Wolfger proposes a test: stick snap-l's laptop in a sauna for 8 hours, see if anything bad happens [12:43] Wolfger: Only if you'll keep it company [12:43] i should've sprung for the SSD [12:44] snap-l: I'll be taking periodic "dive in the pool" breaks. Should I leave your laptop in the sauna, or take it with me? [12:44] Wolfger: No, you won't either. No breaks. That's the point. ;) [12:45] difference being, you think the HDD isn't subject to heat. You know I am. [12:45] ;) [12:49] crap. i'll have to move back to the macbook pro until i get a new drive [12:55] i'm using my ancient work desktop now. ubuntu 10.04 was so nice [13:10] snap-l: WSSE? define please? [13:11] SOAP security envelope [13:11] snap-l: SOAP is now done via the WCF library instead of asmx, so google "WCF WSSE" and there are lots of ways to make it work. [13:11] jrwren: Oh, I'm sure. [13:11] I'm not a C# expert, though [13:12] What's interesting is the person I'm supporting seems to think that because whatever he's chosen doesn't support WSSE, we need to expose libraries that obviate the need for WSSE [13:13] if not, he'll have to patch so far down as to be not worth the trouble. [13:14] Which kills me because he obviously knows what he's doing, but is getting so tied up with requiring the library to support things. [13:19] it supports WSSE trivially from the looks of those blog posts [13:20] just write a simple client that consumes teh wsse service adn send it to him. [13:24] jrwren: Which blog post are you reading? [13:26] frenchcoder.com [13:27] are you doing wsse plain text over http adn not https? [13:27] http://www.frenchcoder.com/content/wcf-ws-security-hell ? [13:27] We're using https [13:28] oh, then that doesn't apply. [13:28] Yeah [13:28] http://blogs.msdn.com/b/appsec/archive/2007/03/04/wcf-supporting-tokens.aspx passing additional security tokens to a service ?? [13:29] Erm, not sure. Not seeing the XML out of it. [13:30] jrwren: Appreciate the help, but at this point I think it's up to the developer to figure this stuff out. [13:31] snap-l: yup, refer him to me if you want. [13:31] and if it continues, let him and his boss know that I'm available for consulting. [13:31] Thanks. ;) [13:31] if you want to give 'em a map, here is a page : http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa738565%28VS.85%29.aspx [13:32] Wow. [13:32] I don't think he can claim poverty for security support. [13:32] right. [13:33] and the library (WCF) is extremely extensible. so he could write his own support if needed (although might not be easy) [13:33] See, this is what I wish Java did [13:34] it does. [13:34] you were just using the wrong java library. [13:34] use Axis2 instead. [13:34] only idiots at giant corps use the shit OOTB with JDK [13:34] My biggest problem was using wsdls to generate code. [13:34] which uses the OOTB Java foo [13:34] i think axis has their own WSDL code gen tool [13:38] hey guys been awhile [13:40] i was wondering what computer language i should learn if i want to make a website but at the same time to write an irc channel and/or server, whichever is needed first [13:40] hi jrmy [13:40] jrmy: as many as possible. [13:40] jrmy: depends on who you ask. I think here people will tell you python. [13:40] and give those two requirements (and only those two) I agree. python. [13:40] yeah [13:41] If you're looking for a good all-purpose language that won't bite back too hard, I'd say Python [13:41] heh, guess i should of learned it back a year or so ago [13:42] to make a website you need html, css, and javascript (if it's fancy) [13:42] just keep in mind, its like you just said "money is no object, what car should I buy if I want to move my and my dog from point A to point B" [13:42] you are going to get lots of varying answers./ [13:42] do you know any computer languages now? [13:42] no [13:43] then my answer does not change :) [13:43] just had an idea and decided i want to pursue it [13:43] decided figuring out what i need is teh first step [13:43] if it doesnt end up working though.. i dont know how i'll take that [13:44] suppose its always worth trying [13:44] do you have any inherent interest in any lang before you asked? [13:44] there are pre-built irc servers, so it's unlikely you actually need to write your own [13:45] well for this use i'd need to be able to have multiple irc channels.. and if the site became successful i'd need thousands [13:45] or not... [13:45] idk.. still in theory on how it works [13:45] dont think its been done though [13:46] use an OOTB irc server. [13:46] don't reinvent the wheel. [13:46] unless you are just doing it to learn and play, then by all means, [13:47] but if you are doing it for production, make the right business decision [13:47] whats a OOTB irc server? [13:47] OOTB=out of the box [13:47] right [13:48] suppose i need an example [13:49] you may also be talking about an IRC bot [13:49] are you looking to host your own IRC service, or just have something that you can program to respond to people? [13:49] why dont i just explain what i want to make [13:49] that would be awesome. ;) [13:49] lol [13:49] well its for fear that someone else might take the idea and make it happen but whatever [13:50] at least it could be made and i could use it [13:50] but uh.., basically a message/status posting website mixed with irc [13:50] jrmy: If you fear that someone will make something that you make, let me disabuse you of that notion [13:51] few things are so novel that nobody has thought of them before. ;) [13:51] so something like twitter that posts to IRC? [13:51] so you can post messages on one hand when no one else is on and chat with irc when people are in your circel of friends [13:51] circle* [13:52] so like a better chatting system if you look at facebook [13:52] Interesting, so a mash-up of Google Plus but with an IRC interface? [13:52] i dont like straight IMing [13:52] yeah [13:52] ive thought about it before [13:53] but never thought about wanting to make it [13:53] so like chat.stackexchange.com ? [13:53] or do you mean more like campfire ? [13:53] at first glance no.. not like chat.stackexchange.com [13:54] you have a profile and you can talk in irc [13:54] but the irc is where its probably complicated to program [13:55] say you can talk to everyone youre connected to like in facebook and google+ [13:55] except its not with instant messaging but everyone else alos has this feature [13:55] so you want to write twitter but more realtime? [13:55] but with both [13:55] but also having them seperate [13:55] i'm lost. [13:55] but integrated [13:56] as it would be teh same site [13:56] I think you want to write Google Plus, but with text chat instead of hangouts. [13:56] possibly [13:57] idk it might not work as well as i'd think [13:57] perhaps not everyoen would want to be in a chatroom with everyone on their friends/following list [13:57] jrmy: Well, it's about the equivalent of saying "I'd like to learm to program games. I'm going to write warcraft" [13:58] i like teh idea though [13:58] the* [13:58] It's a big task [13:58] yeah [13:58] but perhaps rewarding [13:58] Not saying you couldn't, but there's a lot of moving pieces to it [13:58] <_stink_> gawd, after all that work, i hope it's rewarding [13:58] lol [13:58] thats why im contemplating it [13:59] maybe i should ask my friends if they'd want to build it with me [13:59] though doing something like this would be stupid in the first place [13:59] jrmy: Do they know any programming languages? [14:00] one of my friends know a little of python the other works at a liquid web [14:00] jrmy: I wouldn't say it's stupid, I'd say that it's the equivalent of someone wanting to know what time it is, and deciding to build a pocket watch from scratch. [14:00] lol [14:00] jrmy: OK, so there's some folks that can help you. [14:00] well we all start small [14:01] true [14:02] but i suppose whatever i want to do of the relevant interests which is electronics i generally would need to learn some programming [14:02] Well, there's something you can do for electronics [14:02] at least to understand how it would work if i didnt write teh code [14:02] It requires a little mone, though [14:02] money, though [14:02] yeah [14:02] FTL: help desk via India. FTW: Sexy-sounding young Indian lady with hot British accent. [14:03] lol [14:03] http://www.makershed.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=MSGSA&CartID=0 [14:03] jrmy: ^^ [14:04] i shall bookmark that one [14:04] it uses a language called "Processing" which is very easy to pick up [14:04] what do robots usually have? [14:04] <_stink_> souls [14:05] lol [14:05] jrmy: depends on the robot. [14:05] who makes the.. is it toyota?> [14:05] Asimov was made by Honda [14:05] i forget who makes robots but is a big company [14:05] ah maybe theres a couple [14:05] There's a bunch of robot companies out there [14:06] i suppose python works either way [14:06] again, robot means anything from small toys to large industrial robots. [14:06] * Wolfger needs to get back to^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h start his TwittRC project [14:06] i just need to get off my ass and learn some python [14:07] thats the jist of things [14:07] I had big plans to make an app that essentially turns any Twitter hashtag into an impromptu IRC-style chat room (though not actually IRC) [14:07] There are two groups I know of already using hashtags like this. I'm sure there are many more. [14:07] i dont even know what an impromptu is [14:07] and no app that I'm aware of really does this [14:08] impromptu =~ spur of the moment [14:08] thats what i get for hating english class... [14:08] figures [14:10] maybe i should join a community college for robotics [14:10] <_stink_> jrmy: i may have said this here before, but the only way in my experience to learn to write code is to (1) pick something you want and (2) try to write it. [14:10] <_stink_> if you try to write something you don't want yourself you'll never do it. [14:11] <_stink_> and realize going in that it will take you a long time and you won't even use the code you write at first, because it will suck. [14:11] <_stink_> so you'll rewrite it at least once. [14:11] <_stink_> but that's the only way, as far as i can tell. [14:11] _stink_: ++ [14:11] <_stink_> so pick the coolest thing you can think of and just try to write it. start from the very beginning just write. [14:12] I'd also recommend getting a book and starting to learn the language [14:12] <_stink_> +1 [14:12] type in the examples, or you'll never learn the language. [14:12] thought i suppose i'll need material to make it work if its for a robot [14:12] <_stink_> snap-l: hey, i had a coworker ask me this yesterday - is there a good book for a current C++/Java programmer to learn python? [14:12] <_stink_> those o'reilly books are scary huge. [14:12] _stink_: Yeah, they are. [14:13] I used Dive into Python initially [14:13] it's a little concise, though [14:13] and somewhat confusing at first [14:13] <_stink_> i'll point him to it, thanks. [14:13] jrmy: Lansing Python Group is just getting started http://www.meetup.com/Python-Lansing-User-Group/ [14:13] I do like Learning Python, but I'd recommend getting the electronic version [14:14] I'm giving http://learnpythonthehardway.org/ a try [14:14] <_stink_> oh yeah, i have another friend that's trying that [14:14] <_stink_> never looked myself [14:14] Partially because electrons have no discernable mass on my computer, and because O'Reilly has some awesome deals on their ebooks. [14:15] <_stink_> and you can search it, i hope :) [14:15] Yeah, they're not pricks with DRM [14:16] wel i guess whatever i do i shouldnt do it alone.. im no tony stark [14:16] lol [14:17] man is it hot.. brb getting a fan and some water [14:19] should i read my atari booklets and stuff to learn? i have some old stuff that my grand father owned [14:19] might be a bit archaic [14:20] <_stink_> don't bother [14:20] <_stink_> with that [14:20] <_stink_> although it has awesomeness of history [14:21] yeah i thought they were neat [14:21] ive got the instruction booklets of a few games and some 2 issues of a magazine [14:21] twittRC? does that tweet when you drink rc cola? [14:21] the 1st and 4th isue [14:21] my advise: stop chatting and go learn python :p [14:22] but i dont have a book to read yet [14:22] http://www.diveintopython.org/ here just read on the web. [14:22] you don't need to buy a book. [14:22] ok a recommendation was all i was looking for [14:22] http://www.diveintopython.org/toc/index.html [14:22] chapter 1 is installing... so if you have it already, start with chatper 2 [14:23] had it but ive gone thorugh a few computers so not anymore [14:23] on linux, you have it. [14:23] on windows... i guess start with chapter 1 :) [14:23] yeah been using windows.. havent found a use for linux though [14:24] The more programming you do, the more use for Linux you'll find. [14:24] no offense, but... then why are you here? [14:24] but that's for a later date. Start with that. [14:24] lol.. because i know i cant find geeks anywhere else [14:24] <_stink_> yep, i installed linux for the first time to write code at home for CS classes. [14:24] excellent answer :) [14:25] besides theres no such thing as a windows community well at least i dont think there is.. and if there is theyre probably a bunch of douche bags [14:26] Windows communities don't hang out in IRC. They all have Yahoo groups [14:27] there are lots of windows communities. [14:27] even on irc. [14:27] there are windows channels here on freenode. [14:27] #ntmojo on ars irc also comes to mind. [14:27] STFU and code. [14:28] <_stink_> o/ [14:28] Our manifesto: http://programming-motherfucker.com/ [14:28] i was talking to the calvin college CS dept head yesterday. he mentioned this http://scratch.mit.edu/ [14:29] he's running a camp for 6th graders using that [14:30] you build programs by putting blocks together. it's designed for animation and music [14:30] i ahte those. [14:30] brouch, that sounds like fun. too bad i never had that kind of camp when i was in 6th grade. i went to girl scout camp [14:30] although I guess some people are visual [14:31] but this idea that EVERYONE is visual and that dragging things makes it easy is ASSININE. [14:31] if that is what I was shown at 6yo I would have not got into programming [14:34] jrwren: should I call it THC instead? [14:34] Twitter Hashtag Chat [14:35] well if i remember right, jrmy is a musician and gamer, so i thought it might appeal to him [14:37] ah [14:39] i dont know but i think it disconnected me.. whatever [14:53] ok so the browser based irc wasnt working for some reason [14:53] so i downloaded a irc client.. [14:54] also im thinking of getting a copy of ubuntu on my desktop as soon as i get a new video card 'cause the python interface isnt of my liking for windows [14:54] unless thats just what 3.2 looks like [14:54] that and i dont understand why print isnt working [14:54] <_stink_> jrmy: hmm, i'd see what the others say, but i'd stick with 2.7 for now [14:55] <_stink_> but i might be off the python coolness [14:55] python interface? [14:55] ok [14:55] yeah its black [14:55] white text [14:55] looks like windows command prompt [14:55] you mean the windows command line? [14:55] no im running python [14:56] guess i'll get 2.7 and see if there is a difference [14:56] you are running an interactive python session [14:56] stfu and code :p [14:57] lol [14:57] there will not be a difference in colors [14:57] ah [14:57] ah.. yeah im suppose to run IDLE [14:58] thats why.. [14:58] ug, idle [14:58] maybe.. [14:58] go for it [14:59] idk im lost.. do i type print "hello"? [14:59] anything else will require downloads and pain [14:59] 'cause its not working [14:59] whatever im getting 2.7 [14:59] steep learning curve. keep trying. stfu and get your learn on [15:00] <_stink_> yes [15:00] <_stink_> what jrwren said [15:04] lol jrwren [15:04] how old is the "dive into python"? [15:04] if doesnt seem to be a command [15:06] <_stink_> a command? it's a book you can get online. [15:07] no if.. returns as a syntax error in python [15:07] so i dont even [15:08] at least in 3.2 [15:08] im sure they changed things [15:08] its a statement, not an expression [15:08] but that is compsci langauge details that shant concern you. [15:08] you are doing it wrong :p [15:09] http://paste2.org/p/1528591 [15:09] it told me to put this in python or whatever and it gets an error [15:10] so thats why im asking about the age of teh documentation that i was recommended [15:10] I think that is meant to be in a file. [15:10] should that run in idle? [15:11] maybe this book is not beginner enough. [15:11] i guess not [15:11] http://wiki.python.org/moin/BeginnersGuide/NonProgrammers [15:12] http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Non-Programmer%27s_Tutorial_for_Python_3.0 maybe? [15:14] yes. [15:15] I'd say study that last link for a day or two and then move onto diveintopython [15:15] ok [15:19] is dive into python updated for python3? [15:19] yes, there's a version for Python 3 [15:19] http://diveintopython3.org/ [15:24] don't learn on python3 yet [15:24] imo [15:25] so sayeth rick_h_, so say we all. [15:25] oh [15:25] so... 2.7? [15:26] why wouldn't you do python3? [15:26] its been around for YEARS [15:26] no web frameworks [15:26] who cares? [15:26] someone who plans to build a web site [15:26] im sure by the time i'll use it, it will [15:26] bah... ok... see all this b.s. is why I don't do python... learn C#! [15:27] i'd use a language for robots anyways [15:27] but then you have to use ASP, which is as pleasant as ramming a rusty fence post up your pooper [15:27] maybe not a website [15:27] jrwren: because there's next to no where to deploy py3 to [15:28] and yea, the only py3 valid web is cherrypy [15:28] OK, I think this is going into the weeds. [15:28] There's enough overlap between Python 2.7 that when you decide to migrate to Python 3.x, it'll be smooth [15:28] so I'd recommend learning 2.7 for now [15:29] asp.net mvc is EXCELLENT. [15:29] so should i learn 3.2 or not? [15:29] it's the rest of it that sucks [15:29] i don't even know what brousch is talking about wrt "ASP" [15:29] concentrate on this first, and don't worry about if what you're learning is going to be immediately applicable [15:29] i have it installed starting to read it.. [15:29] jrmy: Just focus on 2.7 for now [15:29] the whole "windows server" part, the whole "wooo IDE joy!" part, and the whole "might I get some dev licenses please sir?" part [15:29] jrmy: I'd focus on whatever you can find the most docs for. [15:29] the differences are so little that it shouldn't matter until you are deep into things as a python master. [15:30] jrmy: What you really need to learn is the fundamentals of development and programmer focus [15:30] Think of it not as learning a skill, but learning a process [15:30] whatever.. im just gonan read and learn 3.2 [15:30] like learning how to meditate. [15:30] really? learning a process? [15:31] oh, you just mean that it never ends. [15:31] jrwren: yes [15:31] that is true of anything, if you want to make it true. [15:31] I learned BASIC as a child, and while I don't use BASIC now, it taught me how to focus and think about development [15:32] sadly, it ends far too soon for too many devs ;( [15:32]