| chronos00 | Hello everybody! I have trouble suspending my laptop with ubuntu 10.10, and intel i965 video chipset. I have searched every bit of many Ubuntu and Linux related forums, but only found one workaround that partially worked... | 02:17 |
|---|---|---|
| chronos00 | I have read in many places that this is a known issue, but I haven't found a consistent solution. | 02:18 |
| chronos00 | Does anybody know a workaround for this problem? | 02:18 |
| chronos00 | for the record, the solution that partially worked was: http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=10244071&postcount=6 | 02:19 |
| chronos00 | I have also tried: 'sudo apt-get install hibernate', but it didn't help either | 02:21 |
| philipballew | is there a launchpad bug for your issue? chronos00 | 02:27 |
| chronos00 | I think there is, I'll look it up for you now. I could probabluy find it again | 02:30 |
| chronos00 | philipballew | 02:30 |
| chronos00 | :p | 02:30 |
| philipballew | if there is thats a good place to put all the input so its in one central area | 02:30 |
| chronos00 | this would be the bug report description closest to my problem | 02:33 |
| chronos00 | note someone talked about a concurrency problem, and the posibble workaround of disabling all but uno processor | 02:34 |
| philipballew | hum. you could create a bug | 02:34 |
| chronos00 | the bug would be a duplicate of the one I just linked, wouldn't it? | 02:35 |
| philipballew | you never linked a bug? | 02:36 |
| chronos00 | Are you suggesting that a should report a new bug, and link it to the original by marking it as a duplicate? | 02:39 |
| pleia2 | chronos00: you said "the bug would be a duplicate of the one I just linked" but you didn't give a link (you only linked to a forum post) | 02:40 |
| pleia2 | chronos00: also you're probably better off asking in #ubuntu, this channel is used for classroom sessions (the next one is tomorrow) | 02:40 |
| philipballew | ^agreed | 02:41 |
| philipballew | if #ubuntu doesnt yeled anything try #ubuntu-beginners | 02:41 |
| chronos00 | I am sorry, It happend the same as when you mail someone talking about an attachment, and you forget to attach... :p | 02:41 |
| chronos00 | this is the link: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xserver-xorg-video-intel/+bug/276943 | 02:42 |
| ubot2 | Ubuntu bug 276943 in xserver-xorg-video-intel "Resume from suspend doesn't work on the Mobile 4 Series chipsets" [High,Fix released] | 02:42 |
| philipballew | alright! lets go to #ubuntu-beginners to talk to discuss this | 02:42 |
| philipballew | that is better for support | 02:42 |
| chronos00 | I guess you are right | 02:42 |
| chronos00 | I'd better start a new thread than a new bug report hehe | 02:42 |
| philipballew | perhaps, also as pleia2 said, you will get more help on other channels on the ubuntu irc network. the one i mentioned just above is good chronos00 | 02:44 |
| chronos00 | I wouldn't be able to reproduce this problem from a clean installation as I don't remember what application installation or upgrade caused this behavior | 02:44 |
| chronos00 | ok ok, I get it. Thanks for your time. I'll post on the forums. Regards. | 02:45 |
| philipballew | alright, when you go to irc for support chronos00 i recoment #ubuntu or #ubuntu-beginners | 02:46 |
| chronos00 | thank you philipballew, 'll keep it in mind. Regards. | 02:47 |
| philipballew | for sure chronos00! happy ubuntuing! | 02:48 |
| farodeAlejandria | hwlo | 02:55 |
| farodeAlejandria | hello | 02:55 |
| farodeAlejandria | so whats this chat aboiut | 02:55 |
| farodeAlejandria | ? | 02:55 |
| philipballew | farodeAlejandria, chat related to what? | 02:56 |
| farodeAlejandria | this chat room | 02:56 |
| farodeAlejandria | I'm interested in learning more about programming | 02:56 |
| farodeAlejandria | and I thought I could learn more about ubuntu and how to program for it | 02:56 |
| philipballew | this chatroom is for sessions on ubuntu, this week is ubuntu community week. try #ubuntu-app-devel they might help you better or know where you can get help | 02:58 |
| farodeAlejandria | is there gonna be session today? I jsut want to attend one | 02:59 |
| farodeAlejandria | as well | 02:59 |
| philipballew | there was, its tommorow https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuCommunityWeek | 03:00 |
| farodeAlejandria | are there recordings to go back and watch them or read them? | 03:01 |
| pleia2 | !logs | 03:06 |
| ClassBot | Logs for all classroom sessions that take place in #ubuntu-classroom can be found on http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/ | 03:06 |
| pleia2 | farodeAlejandria: ^^ | 03:06 |
| farodeAlejandria | thansk | 03:07 |
| farodeAlejandria | thanks | 03:07 |
| stephenthemartyr | hi | 03:31 |
| stephenthemartyr | what is bieng discussed here? | 03:31 |
| jmarsden | !classroom | 04:11 |
| ubot2 | The Ubuntu Classroom is a project which aims to tutor users about Ubuntu, Kubuntu and Xubuntu through biweekly sessions in #ubuntu-classroom - For more information visit https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom | 04:11 |
| vnetsaper | QUESTION: Is it too late to listen lessons? | 11:59 |
| head_victim | vnetsaper: there are always the logs | 12:02 |
| head_victim | !classroom | 12:02 |
| ubot2 | The Ubuntu Classroom is a project which aims to tutor users about Ubuntu, Kubuntu and Xubuntu through biweekly sessions in #ubuntu-classroom - For more information visit https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom | 12:02 |
| head_victim | !logs | 12:02 |
| ClassBot | Logs for all classroom sessions that take place in #ubuntu-classroom can be found on http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/ | 12:02 |
| === med_out is now known as medberry | ||
| cjohnston | yay mhall119 ! | 14:56 |
| mhall119 | yay! | 14:56 |
| mhall119 | is everyone here? | 14:56 |
| nigelb | o/ | 14:57 |
| nigelb | cjohnston: why are you opped? | 14:57 |
| cjohnston | im not | 14:57 |
| cjohnston | o | 14:57 |
| cjohnston | i am | 14:57 |
| cjohnston | i dunno | 14:57 |
| cjohnston | i rock? | 14:57 |
| nigelb | Not anymore :P | 14:58 |
| cjohnston | :-( | 14:58 |
| mhall119 | aw, I guess I'll have to lead the class afterall then | 14:58 |
| mhall119 | alright, I guess we can get started | 15:00 |
| === ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Current Session: Writing Test Cases for the Ubuntu Community Website Project - Instructors: mhall119 | ||
| ClassBot | Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/07/22/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session. | 15:00 |
| mhall119 | so this isn't going to be a formal class, but more of an group chat about how to write test cases for loco-directory | 15:00 |
| mhall119 | the channel is open, so if you have questions or anything just ask them in here | 15:01 |
| mhall119 | I don't be using ClassBot or monitoring -classroom-chat for this | 15:01 |
| mhall119 | okay, so I would really like to see us adding test coverage to loco-directory, or really any other community websites we're currently involved in | 15:03 |
| mhall119 | such as summit, hall of fame, cloud portal, etc | 15:03 |
| nigelb | Isn't cloud portal wordpress? | 15:03 |
| mhall119 | nigelb: some part of it is django | 15:04 |
| nigelb | ah, go on :) | 15:04 |
| mhall119 | https://10.cloud.ubuntu.com/ is django I think | 15:04 |
| mhall119 | I'm only going to focus on some basic django testing for this session | 15:05 |
| mhall119 | firstly,the official link: https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/1.1/topics/testing/ | 15:05 |
| mhall119 | like pretty much all django documentation, that gives a very good coverage of what tests are and how to write them | 15:05 |
| mhall119 | Django supports 2 ways of writing tests, doctests and class-based tests | 15:06 |
| mhall119 | I've never been a fan of doctests, so I recommend using the class based method | 15:06 |
| mhall119 | test code can be placed in a tests.py module inside any django app, and it will be available to django to test | 15:07 |
| mhall119 | you can run those tests from the command line with "python manage.py test $app" | 15:07 |
| mhall119 | or, for loco-directory, you can run "make check", which will call that command for you | 15:07 |
| mhall119 | Django will look for any test classes in that module | 15:08 |
| mhall119 | for each test class, it will run each of it's member functions that start with "test_" | 15:08 |
| mhall119 | so you can have a method called "test_foo" and Django will consider that a test method and run it | 15:09 |
| mhall119 | before each test method, Django calls the "setUp" method for the class, and after each method it calls the "tearDown" method | 15:09 |
| mhall119 | setUp and tearDown are a good place to add data to the database, or files to the filesystem, that will be needed by the test methods | 15:10 |
| mhall119 | tearDown is where you clean up after yourself | 15:10 |
| mhall119 | it's important to clean up after yourself, otherwise the remains of one test might cause another test to fail | 15:10 |
| mhall119 | to make things easier, Django uses a test database, which is based off your normal database settings, except that it prepends "test_" to the database name | 15:11 |
| mhall119 | so if you have a MySQL database called "locodirectory", Django will create a database called "test_locodirectory" to run your tests against | 15:12 |
| mhall119 | to make it even easier, Django will reset that test database between every test, so if you add data to the database in setUp, you don't have to worry about deleting it in tearDown | 15:12 |
| mhall119 | any questions so far on how Django runs tests? | 15:13 |
| nigelb | Nope, looks good so far | 15:14 |
| mhall119 | okay, now let's get into some examples | 15:14 |
| mhall119 | take a look at the diff for https://code.launchpad.net/~mhall119/loco-directory/fix.806005/+merge/68181 | 15:14 |
| mhall119 | one of our friends in the Ireland team decided to see how many guests he could register in the Attendee registration form | 15:15 |
| mhall119 | and found out that we hit a database size limitation that throws an error, instead of gracefully validating in the Django form | 15:16 |
| mhall119 | for bugs like this, it's usually good practice to write your test case first | 15:16 |
| mhall119 | so I wrote the test case here | 15:17 |
| mhall119 | in the setUp method, you can see that I'm creating the minimum number of data records needed to reproduce this bug | 15:17 |
| mhall119 | so I have a country, a team, a venue and an event | 15:17 |
| mhall119 | and, because you need to be logged in to access the registration form, I also had to create a user record | 15:18 |
| mhall119 | on line 72 of the diff is where the actual test starts | 15:18 |
| mhall119 | it's good practice to include a docstring on your test methods, to tell people looking at it what it will be testing | 15:19 |
| mhall119 | so on line 76 I create the path that the registration form posts to, and on line 77 I define a dictionary containing the form data I will pass to it | 15:20 |
| mhall119 | notice that I chose a large number for guests in order to reproduce the error condition | 15:20 |
| mhall119 | now, since my test class is a child of the Django TestCase class, it inherits some helpful things | 15:21 |
| mhall119 | among them is the test client: self.client | 15:21 |
| mhall119 | this lets you mimic a browser accessing your site, without having to implement a full HTTP client or have the Django server running | 15:21 |
| mhall119 | self.client.get() will mimick an HTTP GET request to your app, and self.client.post() will mimick a POST request | 15:22 |
| mhall119 | again, since the registration form requires a logged in user, I first have to log the test client in as the user I created, I do this on line 82 | 15:22 |
| mhall119 | this login step is only necessary when you need to test pages that require a logged in user | 15:23 |
| mhall119 | now that I'm logged in, I can mimick the form submission, which happens on line 85 of the diff | 15:23 |
| mhall119 | this returns an HttpResponse object | 15:23 |
| mhall119 | I also inherit several assert methods from the Django TextCase, which is what you use to check that the values you expect are the values that you get | 15:24 |
| mhall119 | first I want to make sure that my request recieved the HTTP 200 OK response status | 15:25 |
| mhall119 | so I use assertEquals to check that response.status_code == 200 | 15:25 |
| mhall119 | the assert methods tell Django whether a test is passing or not | 15:25 |
| mhall119 | it will abort the test method at the first assert call that fails | 15:26 |
| mhall119 | if none fail, it considers the test method as having passed | 15:26 |
| mhall119 | another useful assert method we inheris is assertContains, which will check to see if a given string exists in the response HTML | 15:27 |
| mhall119 | on line 91, I'm checking ot make sure that the error message that the form should generate exists in the response | 15:27 |
| mhall119 | now again, all of this was written before the fix was implemented | 15:27 |
| mhall119 | why write the test first? | 15:27 |
| mhall119 | well, how do you test your test? You do that by making sure that it fails when it should fail, and the easiest way to do that is to write it and run it before you fix the bug | 15:28 |
| mhall119 | so I write this test, then run "python mange.py test events" | 15:28 |
| mhall119 | and sure enough, my response.status_code is 500, and my assertion fails | 15:28 |
| mhall119 | but now I know that my test will fail if the bug is still there | 15:29 |
| mhall119 | so now I can fix the code | 15:29 |
| mhall119 | (actually somebody else fixed this code, so I just had to merge their branch at this point) | 15:29 |
| mhall119 | then re-run the test. | 15:29 |
| mhall119 | if the tests pass, you're good to go, you know the bug is fixed | 15:30 |
| mhall119 | if they fail, the bug is probably still there | 15:30 |
| mhall119 | now that this test case is in the code, we can run it any time we want to make sure that the bug is still fixed | 15:31 |
| mhall119 | so if somebody changes something in the form in the future, and it stop's validating the guests number, we'll know right way | 15:31 |
| mhall119 | ok, so that's how you write a basic test | 15:31 |
| mhall119 | now for a slightly larger example: https://code.launchpad.net/~mhall119/loco-directory/fixes-805280/+merge/66736 | 15:32 |
| mhall119 | we had a problem using the country name in Venue URLs | 15:32 |
| mhall119 | and these venue URLs were used in multiple places | 15:32 |
| mhall119 | some problems were caused by spaced in country names, others by commas in country names | 15:33 |
| mhall119 | so I had to write multiple tests to cover as many different scenarios and locations as I could think of | 15:33 |
| mhall119 | you can see that in setUp(), I'm again creating the minumum number of records needed to reproduce this problem | 15:34 |
| mhall119 | then I have 3 different test methods to check different parts of the site, and difference data scenarios | 15:35 |
| mhall119 | the first 2 make sure that we're converting the country name into a URL-acceptable slug by replacing spaces with underscores | 15:35 |
| mhall119 | again I'm using the test client to mimick browser actions, and using assertContains to make sure that the response contains what I would expect it to contain | 15:36 |
| mhall119 | the 3rd test, test_country_contains_comma, will need slightly different test data, so the first thing I do is change the country name | 15:36 |
| mhall119 | I'm using the specific example that we had | 15:36 |
| mhall119 | again, since django resets the database between calls to test_ methods, I don't need to worry about this change breaking other tests | 15:37 |
| mhall119 | so, that's the 30 minute crash course in writing django tests | 15:37 |
| mhall119 | are there any questions? | 15:38 |
| cjohnston | mhall119: why are the teams tests failing | 15:38 |
| mhall119 | cjohnston: the teams tests where written long ago, and have probably been failing for most of that time | 15:38 |
| cjohnston | you arent helping me here | 15:39 |
| mhall119 | when you change code that changes functionality or output, you're usually going to cause tests to fail, because the conditions they were checking have changed | 15:39 |
| mhall119 | when this happens, it just means that you need to update the tests to reflect the new functionality or output | 15:39 |
| cjohnston | i cant test my tests if the other tests that are being tested by my test fail when tested without my test | 15:39 |
| mhall119 | so, the teams tests need to be updated to match what the loco-directory is doing now, not what it was doing way back when they were written | 15:39 |
| mhall119 | you can test all the django apps at once, or you can specifiy one or more apps to test | 15:40 |
| mhall119 | for example, "python manage.py test events" will only run the tests for the events app | 15:40 |
| cjohnston | can you walk us through fixing the teams test | 15:41 |
| mhall119 | you can also run individual TestCase classes, or even individual test methods, from the command line | 15:41 |
| cjohnston | how | 15:42 |
| mhall119 | "python manage.py test $app.$TestClass.$test_method" | 15:42 |
| mhall119 | so, for example you can run: | 15:44 |
| mhall119 | python manage.py test events.FormTests.test_large_guest_validation | 15:44 |
| mhall119 | and it will only run that one test method | 15:44 |
| cjohnston | list index out of range :-( | 15:45 |
| mhall119 | as for fixing team tests, I haven't even looked into what's broken, so I wouldn't want to do that in here, but we can do it in #ubuntu-website after I've had a chance to look | 15:45 |
| mhall119 | cjohnston: okay, we can debug in the other channel | 15:45 |
| mhall119 | nigelb Ronnie daker: any questions from you guys? | 15:46 |
| nigelb | nope. | 15:46 |
| mhall119 | okay | 15:46 |
| mhall119 | now, since loco-directory, summit and the rest all have a large existing codebase, it's not practical for us to try and write tests for all existing features | 15:47 |
| mhall119 | but, for any new features, and when fixing any new bugs, we should make a habit of including test cases | 15:47 |
| mhall119 | these both ensure that our fixes actually work, and it lets us easily make sure that future changes don't break them | 15:47 |
| mhall119 | so I would highly, highly recommend that our merge proposals all contain at least one new test | 15:48 |
| mhall119 | I'll leave it to the various project leads to decide how strictly they want to enforce that | 15:48 |
| nigelb | would you suggest that we set up something like jenkins/buildbot ? | 15:49 |
| mhall119 | it might be helpful in the future, but for now we can probably get by just by running the entire test suite before approving an MP | 15:49 |
| ClassBot | There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session. | 15:50 |
| mhall119 | okay, one last thing I wanted to talk about | 15:50 |
| mhall119 | while it's important to test that your code works as expected, it's just as important, if not more so, to make sure it fails as expected | 15:51 |
| mhall119 | so if you're testing a field that can be null, you should write a test for when it has a value, and another test for when it doesn't have a value, to make sure both instances behave properly | 15:51 |
| mhall119 | the goal is to cover as many possible scenarios as you can think of | 15:51 |
| mhall119 | so does everybody feel comfortable with making test writing a part of our normal development process? | 15:52 |
| cjohnston | on | 15:53 |
| cjohnston | no | 15:53 |
| nigelb | yes | 15:53 |
| mhall119 | well, I'll be in #ubuntu-website and I'm more than happy to help if you get stuch on something | 15:53 |
| nigelb | after participating in 3 projects tat do that, I think its wort it. | 15:53 |
| mhall119 | once you get into the habit of it, it'll become much easier | 15:53 |
| mhall119 | nigelb: definitely worth it | 15:53 |
| nigelb | Its trouble alright, but the long-term regression catching potential we have is worth the trouble. | 15:54 |
| ClassBot | There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session. | 15:55 |
| mhall119 | okay, let's call it a wrap | 15:56 |
| mhall119 | thanks everyone for taking the time to come | 15:56 |
| nigelb | \o/ | 15:58 |
| === ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Community Week - Current Session: Preparing for Approval and Re-Approval. Do's and Don'ts - Instructors: czajkowski - Slides: http://is.gd/s3AxPn | ||
| ClassBot | Slides for Preparing for Approval and Re-Approval. Do's and Don'ts: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuCommunityWeek/oneiric/slides?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=session17.pdf | 16:00 |
| ClassBot | Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/07/22/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session. | 16:00 |
| czajkowski | Preparing for Approval and Re-Approval. Do's and Don'ts | 16:01 |
| czajkowski | Aloha and welcome to my 2nd session this week, todays topic is on Preparing for Approval and Re-Approval. Do's and Don'ts | 16:01 |
| czajkowski | So for those of you that don't know me I'm Laura Czajkowski and I'm currently one of 6 people who sit on the Ubuntu LoCo Council, something which I'm rather passionate about. | 16:01 |
| === bambee_ is now known as bambee | ||
| czajkowski | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncil I've been on the council for almost 20 months now and I've learned a lot about teams and how best to approch the approval and re approval process and | 16:02 |
| czajkowski | today I'm going to explain some key things that not only will help you and your team, but also help the council help you and advise you on how best you can perform and where you can improve | 16:02 |
| czajkowski | So lets get cracking! | 16:02 |
| czajkowski | Firstly for those of you who don't know who we are: | 16:02 |
| czajkowski | There are 6 of us on the council Laura Czajkowski / czajkowski Alan Pope / popey | 16:03 |
| czajkowski | Christophe Sauthier / huats Chris Crisafulli / itnet7 Paul Tagliamonte / paultag | 16:03 |
| czajkowski | Leandro Gomez / leogg and we are elected by the CC for a 2 year term. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncil/ | 16:03 |
| czajkowski | We are elected to help you loco team members help your team be as active and prodcutive as possible. | 16:03 |
| czajkowski | You can find most of us on irc either on our home team channels or hanging out in #ubuntu-locoteams | 16:03 |
| czajkowski | If you join that channel and need help or want our attention or find out how to contact us you can use the command | 16:04 |
| czajkowski | !lococouncil | 16:04 |
| czajkowski | < ubot4> lococouncil is The Loco Council is itnet7, czajkowski, paultag, huats, leogg, popey - they are there to help, just ask! :) You can send them an email at loco-council@lists.ubuntu.com | 16:04 |
| czajkowski | Please be patient , we may not be online and only some of us run screen sessions, you can always email us | 16:04 |
| czajkowski | Emails are moderated so don't be alarmed we will get back to you, and you don't need to suscrbibe to the list. | 16:04 |
| czajkowski | We're going to start looking at Team going for APPROVAL for their first time, we'd recommend going for this after being active for approximately 6 months, basically a cycle. | 16:04 |
| czajkowski | For us to access this we look at what you've done, so Creating a | 16:05 |
| czajkowski | 1) Team on Launchpad | 16:05 |
| czajkowski | 2) Mailing List | 16:05 |
| czajkowski | 3) IRC Channel - you may want to commuicate only via Mailing list and this is fine, each team is different. | 16:05 |
| czajkowski | 4) Create a wiki page - for the examples today I'm going to use my Team page Ireland - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrishTeam | 16:05 |
| czajkowski | Store all your information here | 16:06 |
| czajkowski | how to email the team | 16:06 |
| czajkowski | team contact information | 16:06 |
| czajkowski | irc channel | 16:06 |
| czajkowski | basically if someone wanted to contact your or see what you are doing what they should see | 16:06 |
| czajkowski | All of the teams that are created get added to the Loco Directory (LD) http://loco.ubuntu.com/teams/ubuntu-ie | 16:07 |
| czajkowski | Any questions so far ?? | 16:07 |
| czajkowski | grand | 16:07 |
| czajkowski | When that is all done, now you need to grow your community your loco team and get people involved and show us this | 16:07 |
| czajkowski | A) Started to communicate with one another, either via the mailing list or IRC | 16:07 |
| czajkowski | B) Had a team meeting each month - publish the minutes of the meting to a wiki page | 16:08 |
| czajkowski | C) Held an event - Can be anything a face to face meeting, Geeknic, a talk something that shows us you are an Ubuntu group and added it to the loco directory - http://loco.ubuntu.com/teams/ubuntu-ie/events/history | 16:08 |
| czajkowski | D) Have some fun as a team! | 16:08 |
| ClassBot | head_victim asked: Do team meeting minutes need to be on the wiki AND the loco page? | 16:09 |
| czajkowski | at present the meeting mins should be on the wiki page, we would love in the future for them to be added to the LD and have the summary of them meeting as you can already create the event on there | 16:09 |
| czajkowski | not sure what you mean by wiki AND loco page | 16:10 |
| czajkowski | your team should have a page called TEAMREPORTS | 16:10 |
| czajkowski | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrishTeam/TeamReports | 16:10 |
| czajkowski | we can see at a glance here that each month the team has them all done | 16:11 |
| czajkowski | ok moving on | 16:11 |
| czajkowski | Now when it comes to your Approval, you can add your team to the Ubuntu LoCo Council Agenda page - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncil/Agenda | 16:11 |
| czajkowski | 1) Please do this BEFORE the day of the meeting , it gives us a chance to view them but also makes sure you are prepared. | 16:12 |
| czajkowski | 2) TURN up to the meeting if you've added your team to the agenda | 16:12 |
| czajkowski | 3) BRING along Team members!!!! WE want to talk to the team contact, but also love to hear from people in the team how they interact and how they enjoy being in the team | 16:13 |
| czajkowski | 4) If the time doesn't suit due to timezones, we do fully understand that, just email us and we will email back and we usally as a few questions like we would do in the meeting, just | 16:13 |
| czajkowski | know that this option is there for you and it's fine. | 16:13 |
| czajkowski | *ON YOUR APPLICATION * | 16:13 |
| czajkowski | We love clear detailed wiki pages. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrishTeam/IrishTeamApprovalApplication | 16:14 |
| czajkowski | Don't think you have to use colour all over the place, it's not easy on the eye to read and in some cases really off putting to try and read, note you won't be the only team we are looking at. | 16:14 |
| czajkowski | You would be amazed at the times we see wiki pages with lack of contact details, like your launchpad page, or team details, use the meeting to tell us how your team is doing while | 16:14 |
| czajkowski | we read the wiki page, don't have us googling all over the place to find the content for you. | 16:14 |
| czajkowski | *useful Tip* Every time you run any event, write up a report on it, and even take a photo, this will help you when it comes to your application as this shows us and tells us how active you are | 16:15 |
| czajkowski | it also helps just to keep track of things. | 16:15 |
| czajkowski | Create links to past events stored on the loco directory or photos of events. Pictures make us happy! | 16:15 |
| czajkowski | Create links to podcasts team members have done or have taken part in or interviews they've been involved in - this is the time to show case your team | 16:16 |
| czajkowski | 16:16 | |
| czajkowski | In the meeting we're likely to ask you, | 16:16 |
| czajkowski | 1) How you share things out in your team | 16:16 |
| czajkowski | 2) How do you motivate your members | 16:16 |
| czajkowski | 3) What being a locoteam means to you | 16:17 |
| czajkowski | 4) What have you do to warrant being an approved team | 16:17 |
| czajkowski | Be prepared to talk in the meeting, so again if English is not your first language email us that you want the application done via email we do understand this, it is not a problem, | 16:17 |
| czajkowski | we're here to help you | 16:17 |
| czajkowski | ANy questions so far ?? | 16:17 |
| czajkowski | Now Lets have a look at **Re Approval Application** | 16:18 |
| czajkowski | 16:18 | |
| czajkowski | So, we've been tasked we the reassessment of locoteams that have been approved over 2 years. | 16:18 |
| czajkowski | It's a bit of a task and some cycles are quieter than others, this cycle we have 27 teams to get through | 16:18 |
| czajkowski | so we're a bit busy so lets look at how to make things easier on all of us shall we! :) | 16:19 |
| czajkowski | So similar to creating a wiki page above for your approval you need to create a NEW Wiki page | 16:19 |
| czajkowski | Call it Reapproval and year as again this is going to happen every 2 years https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrishTeam/IrishTeamReApprovalApplication2011 | 16:19 |
| czajkowski | We will again want to see all the basic details of your team | 16:20 |
| czajkowski | We are trying to establish here how active you've been in the two years since we would last have met | 16:20 |
| czajkowski | So you need to show us this | 16:20 |
| czajkowski | You will need to list events you've organised or taken part in | 16:20 |
| czajkowski | It will be more detailed than your first application as it should have 2 years worth of information. | 16:20 |
| czajkowski | Again come prepared and have it submitted to us before hand | 16:21 |
| czajkowski | Link to all past events and how you do things | 16:21 |
| czajkowski | Questions you are likely to be asked in the meeting are | 16:21 |
| czajkowski | 16:21 | |
| czajkowski | 1) how have you done things since you were first approved | 16:21 |
| czajkowski | 2) If you've had difficulty how have you over come these issues and what have you learned from them | 16:21 |
| czajkowski | 3) how do you share out tasks | 16:21 |
| czajkowski | 4) How have you grown in 2 years | 16:22 |
| czajkowski | 5) plan for the next 2 years | 16:22 |
| czajkowski | 16:22 | |
| czajkowski | Obviously it's re approval so your team should be more established and we will want more detail so bring people along so they can help answer the questions, have your wiki page up to date and have the information on us. | 16:22 |
| czajkowski | Each team should have a TEAM CONTACT some call this a TEAM LEADER and some teams have a TEAM CONTACT *AND* a TEAM LEADER | 16:22 |
| czajkowski | We encourage teams to contact us, it's what we are elected here to help and do so don't be shy and please don't be annoyed with members who do contact us. | 16:23 |
| czajkowski | 16:23 | |
| czajkowski | Some team mail us or poke us on IRC asking us to have a look over their application, that's fine I'd prefer a team to do that then turn up and be told your wiki page has no information and only shows 1 years worth of activity and come back, where I can tell that to them in a quick pm on IRC | 16:23 |
| czajkowski | Any questions ?? | 16:23 |
| czajkowski | So to Summerise | 16:24 |
| czajkowski | 16:24 | |
| czajkowski | 1) CLEAR and CLEAN wiki pages - Less colouring and more writing does help | 16:24 |
| czajkowski | 2) Links to events - check your links work folks, don't have it go to a 404 | 16:24 |
| czajkowski | 3) Detailed wiki pages with current information, if your reapplication is 2011 don't have the wrong dates in the application | 16:24 |
| czajkowski | 4) Try and have as much information on the events on the wiki page a short discreption or a link to a blog post on it | 16:25 |
| czajkowski | 5) keep a back up of photos - we hear a lot that who ever had the photos their ac was deleted | 16:25 |
| czajkowski | 6) Come to us if you want some advice BEFORE the meeting | 16:25 |
| czajkowski | 7) If the time doesn't suit email us and we can do it via Email | 16:25 |
| czajkowski | 8) Bring along team members, don't come alone as you're a team so show that by having a presence there on the day. | 16:25 |
| czajkowski | 9) Be prepared to answer questions, have some information written out about your team, again if this is an issue due to language email us. | 16:25 |
| czajkowski | 10) Show up to the meeting!!! | 16:26 |
| czajkowski | you'd be susprised......... | 16:26 |
| czajkowski | and finally | 16:26 |
| czajkowski | 11) Show us how you are a LoCo Team, show us how you promote and enjoy the Ubuntu Community | 16:26 |
| czajkowski | we're not out to trick people or not help teams | 16:26 |
| czajkowski | we don't want to unapprove teams | 16:26 |
| czajkowski | so you have to prove to us you are a LoCo | 16:27 |
| czajkowski | you have the content we need to read | 16:27 |
| czajkowski | don't have us searching for it | 16:27 |
| czajkowski | That's me done folks | 16:27 |
| czajkowski | thanks for listening and reading :) | 16:27 |
| czajkowski | anyone have any questions.... | 16:27 |
| czajkowski | I'll post the link to this session on my blog | 16:36 |
| czajkowski | with a link to irc logs folks | 16:36 |
| sabdfl | hello all | 16:37 |
| ClassBot | Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/07/22/%23ubuntu-classroom.html | 16:40 |
| === ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || | ||
| === ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Weekly Q and A - Current Session: Weekly Q+A - Instructors: sabdfl | ||
| ClassBot | Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/07/22/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session. | 16:41 |
| sabdfl | hello! | 16:41 |
| sabdfl | we interrupt your usual programming for a special preview session on .... | 16:42 |
| sabdfl | copyright assignment and contribution agreements | 16:42 |
| sabdfl | there was a scheduling slipup, and this session will happen properly at a later date | 16:42 |
| sabdfl | but since i was originally told to be here, now, to answer questions... | 16:42 |
| sabdfl | i blogged this afternoon, and am here now | 16:42 |
| sabdfl | but will be back | 16:42 |
| sabdfl | when people actually know about it :-) | 16:43 |
| sabdfl | nevertheless, if there are questions, we have till the top of the hour | 16:43 |
| sabdfl | perhaps i'll riff a little on the subject, then take questions as and when you feel like asking them | 16:43 |
| sabdfl | first, my focus is on making a fantastically successful free software ecosystem | 16:44 |
| sabdfl | what would that look like? | 16:44 |
| sabdfl | well, it would have lots of jobs for free software programmers to work on free software applications full time, on top dollar | 16:44 |
| sabdfl | it would also have a very wide range of applications available in the ecosystem, and much more of them under the GPL and related licenses | 16:45 |
| sabdfl | i think we have to accept that we have 20 years of data now, the FLOSS experiment is no longer theory, and we should review progress and think hard about what we have learned | 16:45 |
| sabdfl | there are some amazing successes. linux on the server is #1 in all the sense we really care about | 16:46 |
| sabdfl | and Android is setting the pace on the handset and device world | 16:46 |
| sabdfl | but there are also some concerns | 16:46 |
| sabdfl | we have a very poor selection of apps, compared to Windows, IOS, Android | 16:46 |
| sabdfl | and those last two concern me the most | 16:46 |
| sabdfl | we used to say "Windows dominates because it has an illegal monopoly" | 16:47 |
| sabdfl | but neither iOS nor Android suffered from that | 16:47 |
| sabdfl | so, the scientist in me wants to know how to adapt our thinking so that our ecosystem, the Gnu based ecosystem, could be as successful | 16:47 |
| sabdfl | that's the first part | 16:47 |
| sabdfl | the second part is that i think hybrids, and interbreeding, and cross-pollination, are all good | 16:48 |
| sabdfl | i think purists usually end up shooting themselves in the foot | 16:48 |
| sabdfl | and i try to encourage others not to make that mistake | 16:48 |
| sabdfl | i think, when we look at the evolution of the ecosystem, we should be open to approaches which grow the Gnu base, even if they are not pure | 16:48 |
| sabdfl | instead, what i see is a lot of nastiness; it's much easier to be a proprietary software developer, in our parties, than to work for a company which spans those worlds | 16:49 |
| sabdfl | we ignore the proprietary world | 16:49 |
| sabdfl | but we're very nasty to companies, like MySQL or TrollTech, which have dual license strategies | 16:49 |
| sabdfl | and this, I think, is self-destructive | 16:49 |
| ClassBot | There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session. | 16:50 |
| sabdfl | from my perspective, those companies have done enormous amounts for good for FLOSS | 16:50 |
| sabdfl | I'd like to have more of them | 16:50 |
| sabdfl | and frankly, if the whole ecosystem was driven by projects with a similar slant, that would be OK by me | 16:50 |
| sabdfl | because i think it would be energetic, competitive, and ultimately result in much more, much better FLOSS | 16:50 |
| sabdfl | now, I know this is extremely controversial | 16:50 |
| sabdfl | but someone has to say it :-) | 16:50 |
| sabdfl | i find it weird that I end up defending companies that stay silent, because they just don't want to get drawn into the politics | 16:51 |
| sabdfl | why, do I do that? | 16:51 |
| sabdfl | because in the end, we live or die as Ubuntu by the quality of our ecosystem | 16:51 |
| sabdfl | we want millions of people to embrace Ubuntu. they will do so if they have fantastic apps | 16:51 |
| sabdfl | i personally want most of those apps to be free | 16:51 |
| sabdfl | but i suspect the best way to achieve that is to encourage companies to participate | 16:52 |
| sabdfl | and i haven't heard many good answers from the purists on how to do that | 16:52 |
| sabdfl | or a response to the fact that the most dynamic focused apps are coming from projects which have institutional backing | 16:52 |
| sabdfl | there are of course exceptions | 16:52 |
| sabdfl | they key to me is to ask "what will motivate investment in this project"? | 16:52 |
| sabdfl | in the case of the kernel, the answer is obvious: as a hw vendor, you HAVE to invest in it | 16:53 |
| sabdfl | there are no other projects where that is true | 16:53 |
| sabdfl | so it's a false example that the purists often throw out :-) | 16:53 |
| sabdfl | any questions? | 16:54 |
| sabdfl | ah, that was easy :-) | 16:54 |
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| ClassBot | There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session. | 16:55 |
| ClassBot | dscassel45 asked: What do you think LoCo teams could be doing that they aren't doing now? | 16:56 |
| jono | <anakin_87792> QUESTION What do you think most ubuntu enthusiasts despise Unity and considering switching to other debian based distros like Linux Mint? | 16:56 |
| sabdfl | hi dcassel | 16:56 |
| ClassBot | There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session. | 16:57 |
| ClassBot | There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session. | 16:57 |
| sabdfl | i think LoCo teams should focus on a balance of fun + ubuntu | 16:57 |
| sabdfl | i think it's great we have a structure that brings together a social perspective and a technical one | 16:57 |
| sabdfl | loco's thrive when they are well organised and balance entertainment and technology | 16:57 |
| sabdfl | at least, that's my assessment, and i've spent time with quite a few :-) | 16:58 |
| sabdfl | from an adoption point of view, i think a key shift is happening in the corporate desktop | 16:58 |
| sabdfl | loco's *may* be in a position to spot local companies that could really benefit from that | 16:58 |
| sabdfl | and in turn, help fuel the revolution | 16:58 |
| sabdfl | but that really depends on the nature of the loco, and what its members do from 9-5 | 16:59 |
| sabdfl | anakin_87792: hi Darth ! | 16:59 |
| sabdfl | i see your Schwartz is as big as mine | 17:00 |
| === ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Community Week - Current Session: Simple Ways to Help Build a Stronger Local Community Team - Instructors: itnet7 - Slides: http://is.gd/LSqiBN | ||
| ClassBot | Slides for Simple Ways to Help Build a Stronger Local Community Team: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuCommunityWeek/oneiric/slides?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=session18.pdf | 17:00 |
| sabdfl | thanks all | 17:00 |
| ClassBot | Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/07/22/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session. | 17:00 |
| nhandler | We will try to get sabdfl back in the near future (since he was cut short due to some confusion on our part) | 17:00 |
| itnet7 | Thanks sabdfl and nhandler ! | 17:02 |
| itnet7 | Hello everyone!! | 17:02 |
| itnet7 | Unfortunately, I dont' have any slides, but I will start out with a quick brief introduction :-) | 17:02 |
| itnet7 | My name is Chris Crisafulli, aka itnet7. I am an IT professional and have been involved with Ubuntu Project since around 2007. I have been using Ubuntu since it was first released. I am currently a leader within the Florida LoCo Team, and a Member of the LoCo Council. | 17:02 |
| itnet7 | Today I am going to lead a discussion on how to increase the Strength of your LoCo Teams! | 17:03 |
| itnet7 | bear with me as I check out the Question/Answer functions of the Bot then we'll get started | 17:04 |
| itnet7 | !question | 17:05 |
| itnet7 | lol | 17:05 |
| itnet7 | !q | 17:05 |
| itnet7 | There are plenty of ideas out there on what you can do to help make your team stronger. I am going to talk about several things that you can do (if you aren't already). | 17:06 |
| itnet7 | One of the first things I would suggest is to create a semi templated e-mail Welcome Aboard Letter, that you can send out to new team members that join. This by far is one of the things that most new team mates commented on to me in person after meeting them. | 17:07 |
| itnet7 | Sending out Welcome Aboard letters, actually meets two goals. One.... It lets the newcomers know that you took interest in him/her joining the team, and two, it gives you the opportunity to invite them to IRC and/or upcoming events in the near future. | 17:07 |
| itnet7 | This is great because in a sense you're helping establish an early sense of inclusion and acceptance. Newcomers will have a smoother transition in joining the team and may really become motivated about wanting to contribute. | 17:09 |
| itnet7 | The actual welcome aboard letter itself doesn't have to be elaborate. | 17:09 |
| itnet7 | 1st paragraph could welcome the NC (New Comer/New Contributor). This line can kind of be in template form. | 17:09 |
| itnet7 | 2nd paragraph could discuss how to join IRC, the Mailing List, Etc. Same with this one. | 17:10 |
| itnet7 | 3rd paragraph will be freestyle so to speak, there are plenty of things you can say... For example, I often read about their team memberships, or looked to | 17:10 |
| itnet7 | see what part of our state they were from, and could let them know about members of our team that live near them in case they are wanting to meet members that are local to them. | 17:10 |
| ClassBot | DieselDragon asked: Pardon my community ignorance, but what exactly does a LoCo (Local Community?) team do? | 17:11 |
| itnet7 | DieselDragon: No worries, LoCo Teams are a way of local enthusiasts to come together and advocate the use of Ubuntu | 17:12 |
| itnet7 | They also provide support for their areas, and do alot of other things. I can send you a few links at the end if you want more info | 17:13 |
| ClassBot | dscassel45 asked: Is there a nice automated thing in launchpad, or do you send them out manually when you get new team member notifications. | 17:13 |
| itnet7 | dscassel69: not at the moment, but when I was drafting this session, I was thinking of asking paultag how hard it would be to automate this a bit whenever someone joins | 17:14 |
| itnet7 | a team | 17:14 |
| itnet7 | We want to try and minimize the work, but we still want to give it a little personal feel | 17:14 |
| itnet7 | if you know what I mean :-) | 17:14 |
| itnet7 | Much of the info that you would want to include in these Welcome aboard letters can be found pretty easily by searching, but a lot of times, brand new people to the project are hit with a lot at once | 17:15 |
| itnet7 | so any time we can save them when they first get involved would be great | 17:16 |
| itnet7 | Another win is to use our team mailing lists to keep others in the loop about events | 17:17 |
| itnet7 | Most of us have jobs and access to irc, etc. during the day is limited | 17:18 |
| itnet7 | but we can leverage the Mailing lists to highlight events that are upcoming, communicate upcoming meetings, and let the rest of our team mates know how things went on events that have just passed | 17:19 |
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| itnet7 | Social Media is another way to help your teams flourish | 17:20 |
| itnet7 | It costs next to nothing to create a facebook group or to create an account on Meetup | 17:20 |
| itnet7 | Even though you may not really like some of these Social Media sites for self-use, you can use them to reach people that you wouldn't normally have within your audience range. | 17:21 |
| itnet7 | For example, I use twitter and identica.... I personally prefer identica, but I know that there is a lot of potential for using both | 17:22 |
| itnet7 | Just remember if you are planning to schedule an event and add it to facebook or something similar, you might have a few extra people you wouldn't expect show up | 17:24 |
| itnet7 | so be prepared, and if the venue is small I would say you may want to be careful how many places you post the event | 17:25 |
| itnet7 | Another way you can grow your team is by recruiting from other enthusiast groups | 17:26 |
| itnet7 | See if some Local Linux User Group Members like Ubuntu. If they do invite them to join the LoCo Team. Let them know early the intent is not to steal them from their Lug or anything. | 17:26 |
| itnet7 | Often times there are Ubuntu Users in Lugs that would love to do something Ubuntu related, but often they don’t have the time or patience to do presentations on say Software Center or quicklists... but Ideally if they join their LoCo Team there is a good chance that they can learn more about Ubuntu, and get some LoCo members involved when doing install fests/presentations. | 17:27 |
| itnet7 | I have in the past, volunteered to give presentations for local pc user groups (windows users mainly) when they have a last minute presenter back out | 17:29 |
| itnet7 | and at the end most people really do have some great questions | 17:30 |
| itnet7 | Just be mindful of your audience, and focus on the strengths of Ubuntu and not the weaknesses of other systems | 17:30 |
| itnet7 | There are about two more things I'd like to bring up.... | 17:31 |
| itnet7 | There are a lot of local businesses that have community boards, where you can post events and such | 17:32 |
| itnet7 | So If you are wanting to attract people to your LoCo Team you can put up some fliers, on their community boards. Local libraries and college campuses are excellent places to do this | 17:33 |
| itnet7 | If you have a team artist, ask them to draw up a great information flier with the tear off tabs at the bottom, put the teams URL and contact info | 17:35 |
| itnet7 | but be prepared to receive inquiries | 17:35 |
| itnet7 | If you are contacted for more information, remember to be pleasant and patient, and try and understand that when you are interacting with new people to our community, often there will be a wide range of experience levels, needs, and even to some degree skepticism. Everyone has their reason for choosing to use Ubuntu or OSS, and often they don’t match our own reasons | 17:36 |
| itnet7 | Once you begin growing the team, and you have events, do your team reports and post pictures of the events. Share these with other LoCo Teams | 17:38 |
| itnet7 | The purpose behind sharing this is to encourage others with idea | 17:39 |
| itnet7 | and if they see your successful events, they may try to host a few themselves | 17:41 |
| itnet7 | One final thing, Most of this takes a lot of teamwork. Try to make sure that you collaborate with your other team mates to get an idea of how you can tackle it together | 17:43 |
| === Andre_Go` is now known as Andre_Gondim | ||
| itnet7 | At first when the team is small or beginning to grow, a little extra effort might be necessary by only a couple of people. As the team grows raise up other leaders and contributors to implement your plans of attack! | 17:46 |
| ClassBot | There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session. | 17:50 |
| itnet7 | Does anyone else have any ideas on what we can do to grow strong teams? | 17:51 |
| itnet7 | er... stronger teams? | 17:52 |
| === Guest90450 is now known as moriancumer | ||
| ClassBot | There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session. | 17:55 |
| itnet7 | Well, Thanks to all of you for your attention, and thanks for being a part of our great community :-) | 17:55 |
| === ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Community Week - Current Session: Spare - Self Study About Community - Instructors: rrnwexec - Slides: http://is.gd/Ci5Cd6 | ||
| ClassBot | Slides for Spare - Self Study About Community: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuCommunityWeek/oneiric/slides?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=session19.pdf | 18:00 |
| ClassBot | Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/07/22/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session. | 18:00 |
| nhandler | It looks like our instructor is not around right now. We will attempt to locate him. | 18:05 |
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| === ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Community Week - Current Session: Spare: Read "The Art of Community" - Instructors: rrnwexec - Slides: http://is.gd/bitMkI | ||
| ClassBot | Slides for Spare: Read "The Art of Community": https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuCommunityWeek/oneiric/slides?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=session20.pdf | 19:00 |
| ClassBot | Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/07/22/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session. | 19:00 |
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| ClassBot | Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/07/22/%23ubuntu-classroom.html | 20:00 |
| === ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || | ||
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