[09:29] <ochosi> http://www.webupd8.org/2011/07/lubuntu-1110-default-theme-ozone2-gets.html
[09:30] <ochosi> this is frickin crazy, why is lubuntu going for the same look as  xubuntu, just one cycle later??
[13:37]  * charlie-tca sighs
[13:37] <charlie-tca> Alternate images for Ubuntu and Xubuntu will not work in VBox today
[13:38] <mr_pouit> everything is oversized anyway =]
[13:39] <charlie-tca> Makes it that much harder to use cd-r
[13:39] <charlie-tca> will burn a dvd and try it on hardware
[13:40] <charlie-tca> solitaire is broken in Oneiric, too
[13:41] <knome> omg! how can we live without it
[13:42] <knome> re: some discussion on mailing list, a draft: http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/web_banners/microbutton_80x15.png
[13:43] <charlie-tca> The text is blurring here, but I like the design.
[13:43] <knome> blurring? are you sure you don't have a zoom on
[13:44] <ochosi> it's pixel-perfect text here...
[13:44] <charlie-tca> I always have text zooming on, does that mean I have to put up with blurred graphics?
[13:45] <knome> with firefox, i think that might be the case
[13:46] <knome> there is NO antialiasing in the font, it should be pixel-by-pixel perfect, as ochosi said
[13:46] <charlie-tca> Then the button is crap
[13:46] <knome> ERR
[13:46] <knome> no
[13:47] <charlie-tca> I don't have to have blurred buttons on most websites.
[13:47] <knome> it is not supposed to be streched really
[13:47] <charlie-tca> There is a difference between zoom all and zoom text-only
[13:47] <charlie-tca> If zoom text-only causes a graphic button to blur, it is a bad design
[13:47] <knome> there is something wrong with your browser, or your settings.
[13:48] <knome> this has absolutely nothing to do with the button design
[13:48] <charlie-tca> Okay, sorry, I don't think the button is okay afterall. It is blurred
[13:49] <knome> there is something wrong with how the browser renders it
[13:50] <knome> maybe it would work if it was inside an <img>-tag, not loaded directly
[13:50] <knome> the button is *not* blurry.
[13:50] <charlie-tca> If I have to change my settings to see it properly, it is a bad design
[13:50] <knome> gosh!
[13:50] <knome> http://gamelab.uta.fi/wordpress/wp-content/themes/freshy2/images/valid_xhtml11_80x15_2.png
[13:50] <knome> is this button blurry?
[13:51] <charlie-tca> 404 error
[13:52] <knome> okay, can you give me a screenshot of the blurry button then?
[13:53] <knome> if you zoom in firefox, the button definitely goes blurry. that's because the image is 80x15, and it's not meant for strecthing. firefox probably does not know how to handle images that are loaded directly (vs. <img>-tag)
[13:55] <knome> as addressed in http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/web_banners/microbutton_80x15.html, where the image is loaded with the <img>-tah
[13:55] <knome> *tag
[13:55] <charlie-tca> Here it is - http://imagebin.org/164775
[13:55] <knome> that button is *not* blurred.
[13:55] <knome> the mousehead is, but it's because the image is 15px tall, and there is no way to get a good-looking mouse without antialiasing in that size.
[13:56] <charlie-tca> so, my eyes are blurring again?
[13:56] <knome> the text is pixel-perfect.
[13:56] <knome> probably
[13:56] <charlie-tca> Thank you. I appologize then. 
[13:56] <knome> no problem. good to have it sorted
[13:56] <charlie-tca> I will stop evaling stuff as blurred/hard to see/bad
[13:57] <charlie-tca> at least for oneiric
[13:57] <charlie-tca> I told google stuff is blurred in google + too
[13:58] <charlie-tca> I assume it goes with the clouding vision, maybe
[13:58] <charlie-tca> mr_pouit: hardware fails to install alternate images too
[13:58] <knome> ugh, i need to go now
[13:58] <knome> wife is waiting @city
[13:58] <knome> see you later
[13:59] <charlie-tca> but at least it isn't only us. Must be something Ubuntu did again
[14:08] <charlie-tca> ochosi: take note. My vision is bad again, be best not to have me looking at the theme.
[14:09] <charlie-tca> and if I do, kind of ignore it, I guess. 
[14:25] <ochosi> charlie-tca: ok, thanks for the heads-up
[14:25] <ochosi> on the technical side: i just added support for compiz/metacity in bluebird as well
[14:25] <charlie-tca> Thank knome, he went through the misery of finding it
[14:26] <ochosi> hmm, i see
[14:26] <ochosi> anyway, sorry to hear that
[14:27] <charlie-tca> heh, it is my regular 18 month or so cycle, I think
[14:28] <charlie-tca> Alternate images are causing a kernel panic right after booting the image
[18:14] <charlie-tca> Xubuntu community meeting in #xubuntu-devel in 45 minutes. Everyone is invited to attend. Agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
[18:26] <Unit193> I'm about sure I can't make it
[18:37] <pleia2> I have an appointment at that time, but if I could get feedback to the questions I posed in https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2011-July/007858.html that'd be great
[18:37] <pleia2> also I'm working on beardygnome's second email too, should have a response tonight
[18:38] <pleia2> pretty much just the first bit of the email, and it is "Xubuntu session" right?
[18:40] <charlie-tca> We offer both Xubuntu and Xfce sessions
[18:41] <charlie-tca> A user should always choose Xubuntu session, unless they want the other
[18:41] <charlie-tca> Xubuntu is a community developed, Ubuntu Linux-based operating system
[18:41] <charlie-tca> is a yes
[18:43] <charlie-tca> and as for the blog/news/xfce news, I do not think we should repeat anything from the planet, but maybe we should be offering what is on Xfce news feed, it really is not a busy feed, as far as I know, mostly it is about the latest versions of modules when they are released.
[18:43] <charlie-tca> However, gnome feed is not repeated for Ubuntu, and maybe we should follow their lead?
[18:44] <charlie-tca> Just throw a pointer up now and again that xfce news is available for anyone to read?
[18:45] <charlie-tca> pleia2: maybe better wording for the above would be :
[18:45] <charlie-tca> Xubuntu is a community developed, Ubuntu-based linux operating system.
[18:46] <micahg> +1
[18:46]  * micahg would capitalize Linux as well since it's a proper noun
[18:46] <micahg> err
[18:46] <charlie-tca> ??
[18:46] <charlie-tca> it depends on usage
[18:47] <charlie-tca> Linux is the kernel, is a proper noun, but linux is different from windows, is not 
[18:48] <micahg> actually, I think Linux and Windows should be capitalized in that example, but I could be wrong
[18:48] <charlie-tca> I will go with others, I don't know proper capitalization that well
[18:48] <astraljava> linux is different from windows doesn't make any sense.
[18:49] <charlie-tca> huh? Are they the same?
[18:49] <astraljava> Other than pointing out something called linux isn't the stuff you have in the walls of your house.
[18:49] <charlie-tca> Linux is the core of the operating system, windows is the operating system as it is popularly known
[18:50] <astraljava> small-case windows has nothing to do with computing.
[18:50] <charlie-tca> and windows is the core of the Windows Operating System, isn't it?
[18:50] <charlie-tca> Then micahg would be correct, and both Linux and Windows should be caps?
[18:51] <astraljava> IMHO, yes.
[18:51] <madnick> Yes, since both are names
[18:51] <charlie-tca> I will go with others, I don't know proper capitalization that well
[18:58] <charlie-tca> Are we ready for a meeting. ?
[18:58] <charlie-tca> pleia2 and Unit193 will not be attending, as I understand it.
[18:58] <astraljava> In a minute!
[18:59] <charlie-tca> tick tock, tick tock
[18:59] <charlie-tca> now?
[19:00] <charlie-tca> #startmeeting
[19:00] <charlie-tca> great! lost the meeting bot already
[19:00] <charlie-tca> Welcome to the Xubuntu Community Meeting
[19:01] <charlie-tca> We keep the agenda at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
[19:01] <knome> woot :)
[19:01] <charlie-tca> * Old business
[19:01] <charlie-tca> * Team updates
[19:01] <charlie-tca>   * Packaging & Development
[19:01] <charlie-tca>   * Bug Triage & Testing
[19:01] <charlie-tca>   * Website & Marketing
[19:01] <charlie-tca>   * Artwork
[19:01] <charlie-tca>   * Documentation
[19:02] <charlie-tca> * Announcements
[19:02] <charlie-tca> * Governance structure
[19:02] <charlie-tca> * Any Other Business
[19:02] <charlie-tca> Reminder:   please use ".." on separate line when you've finished typing.   If someone wants to comment during the updates, please "o/", so we know to wait.
[19:02] <charlie-tca> We do allow anyone to speak up, that wants to.
[19:02] <charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Old Business
[19:02] <charlie-tca> micahg to find what Ubuntu-desktop does with java in restricted-extras
[19:02] <charlie-tca> micahg: any status?
[19:02] <micahg> charlie-tca: sent an e-mail, waiting on response
[19:02] <charlie-tca> Thank you
[19:03] <charlie-tca> start ML discussion on panels, reviews of current panels, launchers on panels, etc
[19:03] <charlie-tca> ochosi: did we get any thing on the review?
[19:04] <charlie-tca> [19:04] <ochosi> sry, was busy with other stuff, afaik the discussion/review hasn't really started
[19:04] <charlie-tca> feature freeze is approaching fast
[19:05] <charlie-tca> we need to do something if we are going to, right?
[19:05] <knome> when is FF?
[19:05] <micahg> Aug 11
[19:05] <knome> plenty of time to do the discussion
[19:05] <ochosi> micahg: maybe we can update gmusicbrowser?
[19:05] <micahg> ochosi: is there a new version?
[19:05] <ochosi> (or at least set a deadline for it)
[19:06] <ochosi> there are quite a few bugfixes, no new release in the strict sense
[19:06] <charlie-tca> I would say if 4 weeks hasn't been enough time to get it started, three weeks is cutting things short
[19:06] <micahg> ochosi: is he planning a release any time soon?
[19:06] <knome> ochosi, want to start the discussion on the ML today? i can give my comments right away
[19:06] <ochosi> micahg: not sure, he's not planning releases, strictly speaking
[19:07] <charlie-tca> knome: Why not send the email to get it started?
[19:07] <ochosi> micahg: i think he's still trying to improve it to finally release 1.2
[19:07] <ochosi> charlie-tca: good idea
[19:07] <knome> charlie-tca, i'm planning to do other things today, eg. more banners
[19:07] <ochosi> awwh :)
[19:07] <ochosi> micahg: but i guess i can talk to him to do a 1.1.8 release
[19:08] <micahg> ochosi: personally, I prefer releases to snapshots, but if there are sufficient fixes, I can find out how to make a tarball from th repo
[19:09] <ochosi> micahg: actually github has a tarball-feature, so you can simply take it from there
[19:10] <charlie-tca> Can we continue?
[19:10] <charlie-tca> silence is not golden...
[19:10] <charlie-tca> [TOPIC] [19:11] <charlie-tca> [TOPIC] [19:11] <charlie-tca> mr_pouit or micahg ?
[19:11] <mr_pouit> as you prefer :p
[19:11] <charlie-tca> Go ahead, sir
[19:11] <mr_pouit> ok
[19:12] <mr_pouit> nothing much new again, uploaded a new xubuntu-default-settings to make some cleaning of gdm/natty specific hacks, and merged the new xfce4-indicator-plugin with transparency support
[19:12] <mr_pouit> micahg wanted to investigate why evince is still on the daily builds, but I don't remember the result ;)
[19:13] <micahg> it's due to gnumeric
[19:13] <micahg> so, gnumeric can use epdfview, but the preview files aren't cleaned when you close epdfview, not sure if that's a deal breaker or not
[19:14] <charlie-tca> What does that mean? Do you have to manually close the previews then?
[19:14] <astraljava> They're stored in /tmp, right?
[19:14] <micahg> yep, they're in /tmp
[19:14] <charlie-tca> Doesn't /tmp get cleaned on a restart?
[19:15] <astraljava> Shouldn't be a problem, most people reboot often, right?
[19:15] <micahg> it's a potential privacy issue on a running machine
[19:15] <astraljava> True.
[19:15] <charlie-tca> even if they don't, does /tmp keep it forever?
[19:15] <micahg> charlie-tca: w/out a reboot, yes
[19:15] <charlie-tca> Other things also get stored there, right?
[19:16] <micahg> yeah
[19:16] <charlie-tca> mr_pouit: opinion?
[19:16] <micahg> I'm not comfortable asking for an alternate depends on epdfview w/out this being fixed
[19:17] <mr_pouit> yeah
[19:17] <astraljava> But wait, isn't most privileges in /tmp 600?
[19:17] <charlie-tca> Then we keep evince?
[19:17] <astraljava> s/isn't/aren't
[19:17] <micahg> astraljava: hmm, right, true, it is 600 on those files, so maybe not an issue
[19:18] <astraljava> ..
[19:18] <charlie-tca> If you are printing a private file, do you expect to not have traces left on the drive?
[19:19] <micahg> that's true, flash drive files would be impacted
[19:19] <charlie-tca> I don't think I understand what is wrong with a copy left in /tmp vs a copy you stored on the drive before print preview was invoked?
[19:19] <micahg> so, I guess we either get this fixed so that epdfview acts like evince in this scenario or go back to evince
[19:19] <micahg> charlie-tca: the file might not be on the system at all
[19:20] <charlie-tca> okay, let's revert to evince again, then. 
[19:20] <ochosi> sorry to bother, but why were we going for epdf again?
[19:20] <micahg> ochosi: 2-3MB CD space
[19:20] <micahg> we're 30MB oversized ATM
[19:20] <charlie-tca> did we remove pinyin yet?
[19:21] <beardygnome> can't we just drop somrthing to get the space back?
[19:21] <charlie-tca> Not that simple
[19:21] <knome> like gimp? 
[19:21] <astraljava> beardygnome: I think that's what the discussion is all about. :)
[19:21]  * knome hides
[19:22] <beardygnome> knome: that's where i was headed :-)
[19:22] <knome> people, PLEASE start the app comparison wiki page.
[19:22] <charlie-tca> If ubuntu adds things, we get oversized, If they remove them, they don't always get removed from the Xubuntu image
[19:22] <astraljava> Wait, Xubuntu actually ships gimp by default?
[19:22] <charlie-tca> yes, astraljava 
[19:22] <knome> don't waste time on loads of irrelevant emails
[19:22] <charlie-tca> We never had the space issue Ubuntu did
[19:22] <micahg> mr_pouit: should we revert to ibus-pinyin from ibus-sunpinyin like UBuntu did?
[19:23] <knome> iirc, we've had the space issue for a few releases already
[19:23] <mr_pouit> micahg: I've absolutely no idea. I usually try to follow what ubuntu doesn on these matters ;-)
[19:23] <mr_pouit> *does
[19:23] <micahg> well, they have a custom CD with ibus-sunpinyin for China I think
[19:24] <mr_pouit> (there are several transitions in progress apparently, since we have two versions of libwebkit aboard)
[19:25] <micahg> we're stuck with them I think, the GTK3 version is used in yelp
[19:25] <micahg> Ubuntu has the same issue
[19:26] <astraljava> Fortunately this isn't an LTS release. :)
[19:26] <charlie-tca> How come alternate 64 is 30MB lighter then the other images?
[19:26] <micahg> I think the two transitions we're impacted by ATM are the SSL 1.0.0 and libnotify ones, libnotify will be done once transmission gets its build-deps MIRd and builds, libssl I haven't started on yet
[19:27] <astraljava> charlie-tca: Only 13, and the same with both archs, isn't it?
[19:27] <charlie-tca> no
[19:28] <charlie-tca> alternate 64 is only 702MB, 
[19:28] <astraljava> Sorry, my bad.
[19:28] <charlie-tca> alternate i386 is 715MB, and the desktop images are both over 730MB
[19:28] <micahg> not sure, we have some amd64 archive failures in main, could be those updates changed build-deps, idk offhand
[19:28] <micahg> s/archive/build/
[19:29] <charlie-tca> All debian installer images are causing kernel panics today, but they had been working
[19:30] <charlie-tca> anything else on development and packaging?
[19:31] <charlie-tca> summary: keep evince, find out why cd's are oversize
[19:31] <micahg> I think so at this point
[19:32] <charlie-tca> and merged the new xfce4-indicator-plugin with transparency support   
[19:32] <charlie-tca> which is a big one, right?
[19:32] <charlie-tca> [TOPIC] [19:33] <charlie-tca> We still don't have live sessions, even though the new x11-common is out
[19:33] <charlie-tca> what else do we need to push to get things moving for us?
[19:34] <charlie-tca> Testing is being done as often as we can, with the results at http://2tu.us/3dmh
[19:34] <charlie-tca> mr_pouit: any bugs I can push people with to get the live session working now/
[19:34] <charlie-tca> ?
[19:35] <mr_pouit> nope, it's still waiting on some support from gdm/lightdm
[19:35] <charlie-tca> bugs in Oneiric are being tracked at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Bugs/OneiricOcelot , Please update it when you report a new bug
[19:35] <mr_pouit> (and they are aware of the issues)
[19:35] <charlie-tca> Do I need to push people, or will it happen before alpha3 next week?
[19:36] <mr_pouit> sorry, I don't know when this'll happen :(
[19:36] <charlie-tca> Any questions on bugs and testing?
[19:37] <micahg> might be something to bring up in the Desktop meeting AU edition
[19:37] <charlie-tca> I keep bringing it up in the release meeting, I don't know the dekstop meeting?
[19:37] <charlie-tca> Do you attend it?
[19:38] <micahg> I'm around for it sometimes (won't be tomorrow)
[19:38] <charlie-tca> They do show the d-i bug 815962 fixed now
[19:38] <charlie-tca> Maybe we will have working images tomorrow
[19:39] <charlie-tca> [TOPIC] [19:40] <charlie-tca> Many thanks to beardygnome for his great website review!
[19:40] <beardygnome> np
[19:40] <beardygnome> glad to be of service :-)
[19:40] <charlie-tca> As many times as I read it, I never realized how many times we referred to Ubuntu instead of Xubuntu
[19:41] <knome> i thought that was deliberate thing on some of the spots
[19:41] <knome> but i might remember wrong
[19:41] <charlie-tca> knome: any update on the website?
[19:41] <knome> on w&m: http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/web_banners/microbutton_80x15.png was created today, and more is to come
[19:41] <knome> i'm hoping to get back on working on the actual website this month
[19:41] <beardygnome> knome: it is in some places, i only mentioned the ones that i thought weren't deliberate
[19:41] <knome> beardygnome, okay, right :)
[19:42] <charlie-tca> I owe knome an apology for this morning. I looked at the banner just referenced, and it was blurred. He has since pointed out my eyes are very blurred again
[19:42] <charlie-tca> seems my vision is not good at this time
[19:43] <charlie-tca> ..
[19:44] <knome> charlie-tca, no problem
[19:44]  * charlie-tca hates not seeing good
[19:45] <charlie-tca> anything else, knome ?
[19:45] <knome> mmh... not at the moment, i think
[19:45] <charlie-tca> Thank you for the update. It would be good to get the website moving again.
[19:45] <knome> yes, definitely
[19:45] <charlie-tca> Any questions for website?
[19:46] <knome> to get the blog set up!
[19:46] <charlie-tca> please
[19:46] <knome> :)
[19:46] <charlie-tca> [TOPIC] [19:46] <charlie-tca> ochosi: You get a turn, too
[19:46]  * knome rolls ochosi like a dice
[19:46] <knome> is it a six? is it?
[19:47] <ochosi> i'll keep that a secret, knome ;)
[19:47] <knome> hehe
[19:47] <charlie-tca> :)
[19:47] <ochosi> ok, not many news, i added a metacity theme to bluebird
[19:47] <ochosi> so basically the two themes we added since i started to contribute actively now work with compiz/metacity
[19:48] <ochosi> apart from that i tested gtk3 again in my oneiric install
[19:48] <ochosi> but everything is still moving too much in gtk3 and unico to really get down to coding the gtk3 theme
[19:49] <ochosi> if someone feels like doing a theme for lightdm, please step forward :)
[19:49] <knome> (albatross is underway of having a facelift!)
[19:50] <ochosi> that's about it from my side :)
[19:50] <charlie-tca> I don't know about a theme, but it is fairly easy to add the wallpaper from greybird to lightdm
[19:50] <ochosi> it's css, so maybe we can use parts of the gtk3 theme when it's ready
[19:50] <charlie-tca> Thank you, ochosi 
[19:50] <ochosi> not sure though
[19:50] <ochosi> np
[19:50] <charlie-tca> That would be great!
[19:50] <charlie-tca> any questions for artwork?
[19:51] <charlie-tca> Anyone that wants to work on the theme for lightdm for Xubuntu?
[19:51] <mr_pouit> (a plymouth theme is also needed :)
[19:51] <charlie-tca> yeah, that's a lot harder
[19:51] <ochosi> mr_pouit: seriously?
[19:51] <ochosi> oh, you mean if we don't want to keep the current one :)
[19:51] <charlie-tca> We been needing one for a while now
[19:52] <ochosi> does anyone here have experience with that?
[19:52] <mr_pouit> \o
[19:52] <mr_pouit>  /o\
[19:52]  * astraljava is not an artist by a long stretch
[19:52] <charlie-tca> I would love to see the current wallpaper as a plymouth background too :)
[19:52] <knome> charlie-tca, you don't want a new wallpaper for oneiric? :P
[19:53] <ochosi> hehe
[19:53] <mr_pouit> ochosi: my experience: take the ubuntu-logo plymouth script, change some random colors and the logo, and poof, here's xubuntu-logo plymouth theme
[19:53] <mr_pouit> but that's not very great
[19:53] <charlie-tca> If we have a good one come into view, we might grab it
[19:53] <knome> mr_pouit, that's greater than alexander the great!
[19:53] <ochosi> mr_pouit: how does that work? could we add animations? if yes, how?
[19:53] <charlie-tca> but wouldn't it be great to see the current wallpaper a plymouth theme?
[19:54] <knome> charlie-tca, we'll create something with ochosi, that's for sure. if not for oneiric, for the new greybird release then
[19:54] <mr_pouit> ochosi: you can do that if you know the scripting language used
[19:54] <charlie-tca> We could splash XUBUNTU across it even, it white or yellow
[19:54] <knome> charlie-tca, the current, or maybe the forthcoming
[19:54] <ochosi> mr_pouit: pfff. not sure i want to learn something so useful outside of plymouth
[19:54] <knome> well definitely not yellow, that would remind me of sweden too much
[19:54] <mr_pouit> but anyway, I'll have to update our plymouth script for oneiric, because the natty one doesn't display fsck progress
[19:54] <knome> mr_pouit, what's the script language there?
[19:54] <charlie-tca> that's right. 
[19:55] <mr_pouit> knome: plymouth specific apparently =]
[19:55] <charlie-tca> Okay, I will go looking at plymouth, if I can figure out how to
[19:55] <knome> mr_pouit, awwh, resembles... ?
[19:56] <madnick> It looks like C
[19:56] <knome> somebody good with C?
[19:56] <knome> madnick maybe? :)
[19:56] <charlie-tca> I don't know any of those, so I should be good to go, huh?
[19:56] <madnick> Not good with animations however :)
[19:56] <knome> well, we can get artists helping you
[19:57] <knome> (ochosi)
[19:57]  * knome hides
[19:57] <madnick> I could look into stuff
[19:57] <knome> great!
[19:57] <charlie-tca> |o/
[19:57] <knome> madnick, seriously, ping me or ochosi when/if you need help with the artistic part
[19:57] <madnick> okay
[19:57] <charlie-tca> [ACTION] madnick to look into plymouth theme, with help from knome and ochosi for animations
[19:57] <charlie-tca> Thank you, madnick 
[19:58] <madnick> :)
[19:58] <knome> i don't think we need any fancy animations really, right?
[19:58] <charlie-tca> right
[19:58] <knome> just something to indicate progress
[19:58] <ochosi> oh yes, i want a spinning wheel and a diamond and a unicorn that rides into the sunset!
[19:58] <knome> ochosi, still?
[19:58] <charlie-tca> See, and the wallpaper has the sunset!
[19:59] <ochosi> haha
[19:59] <knome> please remember mouse is our mascot, so the unicorn must be riding a mouse, or the other way around!!
[19:59] <ochosi> :)
[19:59] <charlie-tca> and not on the horn, either ;)
[19:59] <knome> haha
[20:00]  * ochosi jots everything down for the next xubuntu wallpaper draft
[20:00] <charlie-tca> [TOPIC] [20:00] <knome> ochosi, gosh! ;)
[20:00] <charlie-tca> let's get through this 
[20:00] <charlie-tca>  * The next meeting will be on Sunday, 2011-07-31 at 22:00 UTC
[20:00] <charlie-tca>  * Important dates coming up:
[20:01] <charlie-tca>  * 11.10 Alpha 3: August 4, 2011
[20:01] <charlie-tca>   * 11.10 FeatureFreeze : August 11, 2011
[20:01] <charlie-tca>   * 11.10 Release Date: October 13, 2011
[20:01] <charlie-tca>   * UDS-P will be in Orlando, Florida the week of October 31 - Nov 4. Please apply for sponsorship by August 24.
[20:01] <charlie-tca>   * UDS-P information at http://ubuntu-news.org/2011/07/15/ubuntu-developer-summit-sponsorship-now-open-2/
[20:01] <charlie-tca> anything else?
[20:01] <knome> yeah
[20:01] <knome> please start the image editor app comparison wiki page
[20:02] <charlie-tca> [TOPIC] [20:02] <knome> even if we didn't change anything for oneiric, it will be useful at later time
[20:02] <charlie-tca> image editor comparison should be started on the wiki
[20:02] <knome> yes
[20:02] <knome> i sent mail to the ML
[20:02] <knome> stating the correct pagename and template name
[20:02] <knome> to somebody to pick up
[20:03] <knome> (it's a relatively low-hanging fruit, since others will help!)
[20:03] <charlie-tca> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Specifications
[20:03] <knome> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Specifications/Oneiric/DefaultImageEditor
[20:03] <charlie-tca> I don't think we are going to drop gimp, but you never know, huh?
[20:03] <knome> (not yet created)
[20:03] <knome> i'm all for dropping it, if we find an easy to use, stable enough image editor
[20:04] <knome> it is true that most of the normal users don't need the majority of gimp features
[20:04] <knome> and i suppose gimp takes quite a lot of space
[20:04] <charlie-tca> like I am not normal?
[20:05] <charlie-tca> I would prefer to see software center dropped, personally
[20:05] <knome> i don't know, but many people use gimp for resizing, flipping and cropping images, and gimp is a bit slow for that
[20:05] <charlie-tca> but, yes, gimp is a huge space taker
[20:05] <beardygnome> charlie-tca: in favour of what?
[20:05] <knome> it is easy enough to install gimp anyway (sudo apt-get install gimp!)
[20:05] <charlie-tca> You can use Synaptic Package Manager
[20:05] <knome> i prefer synaptic as well, if one needs a GUI
[20:05] <charlie-tca> or even apt-get install ...
[20:06] <beardygnome> true, (i do myself) but i think software center is wasier for new users
[20:06] <knome> but i think the SC is easier for new users
[20:06] <beardygnome> the general public is becoming quite used to "app stores"
[20:06] <knome> charlie-tca, doesn't apt-get install need sudo?
[20:06] <charlie-tca> I still believe new users belong in Ubuntu instead. 
[20:06] <pleia2> yeah, new people really love the software center, in my experience
[20:06]  * beardygnome hopes apple don't sue him
[20:06] <charlie-tca> everything needs sudo, doesn't it?
[20:07] <knome> the SC is not too large/bloaty/irrelevant anyway?
[20:07] <charlie-tca> Does the "app store" part work for Xubuntu?
[20:07] <knome> charlie-tca, nvm, thought you commented on sth else :)
[20:08] <micahg> charlie-tca: shouldn't it?
[20:08] <charlie-tca> I open it every 6 months to test it, for the final candidate image tests
[20:08] <charlie-tca> um, ubuntuone doesn't work for Xubuntu, the buy music parts don't work for Xubuntu, I haven't tested the buy apps now parts to see if they work outside of Ubuntu
[20:09] <micahg> charlie-tca: if they don't that should be a bug
[20:09] <charlie-tca> Software Center is finely tuned to Ubuntu
[20:09] <knome> micahg, agreed!
[20:09] <micahg> the packages should have appropriate dependencies
[20:09] <knome> shouldn't be too hard to hide those
[20:10] <charlie-tca> like the bug for ubuntuone? filed a long time back, with the comment: "as soon as Xubuntu writes the interface" ?
[20:10] <charlie-tca> but I regress
[20:10] <knome> charlie-tca, link?
[20:10] <charlie-tca> Any other business?
[20:10] <micahg> charlie-tca: why can't we use the UBuntu UbuntuOne client?
[20:10] <charlie-tca> no, I don't have it. I quit following the bugs for ubuntuone
[20:10] <charlie-tca> micahg: because it doesn't work?
[20:10] <knome> okay
[20:11]  * micahg isn't sure what that means
[20:11] <GridCube> good evening
[20:11] <knome> hey GridCube 
[20:11] <charlie-tca> which became very obvious when I cancelled my payments for ubuntuone and switched to Dropbox
[20:11] <beardygnome> micahg: i think it requires nautilus
[20:11] <charlie-tca> micahg: it doesn't work with thunar.
[20:12] <micahg> ah, that part doesn't work
[20:12] <charlie-tca> and when you add nautilus to xubuntu, it really gets messy
[20:12] <knome> yeah.. way too messy
[20:12] <knome> and bloaty
[20:12] <knome> :)
[20:12] <beardygnome> micahg: it doesn't work with kubuntu either, iirc
[20:12] <charlie-tca> That is the whole part of ubuntuone worth having. If all you get is a web interface, there is no advantage to saying you have it
[20:12] <charlie-tca> Kubuntu now has an interface, though
[20:13]  * charlie-tca thinks "so does windows"
[20:13] <beardygnome> oh well, i'm happy with dropbox for now
[20:13] <beardygnome> at least that works with thunar
[20:13] <charlie-tca> yup
[20:13] <knome> sshfs works with thunar ;)
[20:13]  * beardygnome thinks ubuntuone has a windows interface too
[20:14] <charlie-tca> but experience doesn't really give me a reason to think most of Software Center works with Xubuntu, either
[20:14]  * knome thinks the BROWN color was appropriate for ubuntu
[20:14] <beardygnome> knome: and now smb does too :-)
[20:14] <knome> beardygnome, afaik smbfs always worked ;)
[20:14] <charlie-tca> Okay, anything we really need to bring up?
[20:14] <charlie-tca> I want to end this meeting
[20:14] <knome> and (curl)ftpfs!
[20:15] <knome> charlie-tca, go ahead
[20:15] <charlie-tca> Thank you all for participating. It is great to see people interested in keeping Xubuntu strong!
[20:15] <charlie-tca> #endmeeting
[20:15] <knome> wait, what? i was here to make xubuntu go soft!
[20:15] <charlie-tca> and now, please continue
[20:15] <knome> ;)
[20:15] <astraljava> Haha! :)
[20:16] <knome> GridCube, see my email to the mailing list
[20:16] <micahg> charlie-tca: so, if you find places where software center doesn't work in xubuntu, please file bugs
[20:16] <charlie-tca> I guess I just don't like software center
[20:16] <charlie-tca> I won't find it, micahg 
[20:16] <charlie-tca> I don't use it
[20:16] <astraljava> But yeah, now that the official part is over, I want to say that I'm willing to lend a hand in the devel part if needed, too. You guys are doing a real good work, and I'd really love to be a part of it, extending the testing part.
[20:17] <knome> astraljava, great!
[20:18] <charlie-tca> mr_pouit: more help ^ ^ ^
[20:18] <GridCube> I realize how late i am, but in the topic of graphic editors and such i tried to edit the wiki and it said i did not had the privileges to do so
[20:19] <GridCube> :( i miss the whole meeting
[20:19] <knome> GridCube, do you have an account in the wiki?
[20:20] <charlie-tca> Did you login to the wiki?
[20:20] <beardygnome> got to go now, see you at the next meeting
[20:20] <charlie-tca> GridCube: better late than never
[20:20]  * GridCube is reading the irclogs.ubuntu.com for today
[20:20] <GridCube> mmm no i do not have a wiki account
[20:20] <micahg> GridCube: openid through launchpad
[20:20] <GridCube> i see
[20:21] <micahg> mr_pouit: so, should I try to make the seed changes to go back to ibus-pinyin or should I try to find some space elsewhere?
[20:22] <knome> micahg, mr_pouit: how much excess stuff do you think can be in the image?
[20:22] <knome> i mean, just totally useless packages for majority
[20:22] <micahg> knome: I'm not sure what you mean
[20:22] <charlie-tca> heh, about 40MB
[20:22] <knome> micahg, ^
[20:22] <charlie-tca> or maybe more than that
[20:23] <charlie-tca> but it takes time to get it weeded out
[20:23] <micahg> well, ATM, we have no space :)
[20:23] <charlie-tca> usually close to rc
[20:23] <knome> would it make sense to try to shoot those out for PP
[20:23] <charlie-tca> oh, that kind of useless? I don't think there is much there
[20:23] <knome> micahg, no i mean, the packages that ARE in the images, how many do you think we could drop with no consequences for majority of xubuntu users?
[20:23] <micahg> I don't think there's much ATM that's useless
[20:23] <charlie-tca> We are pretty tight
[20:24] <knome> right
[20:24] <micahg> we could always throw gmusicbrowser back out
[20:24]  * micahg hides
[20:24]  * knome kicks micahg in the private area
[20:25] <knome> that's probably one of the smallest packages
[20:25] <micahg> Access Denied
[20:25]  * knome enters the sudo password
[20:25] <charlie-tca> I guess if push comes to shove, we will drop gimp, but not yet
[20:25] <micahg> nah, I think the ibus change was most of the 30MB
[20:25] <charlie-tca> me too
[20:25] <knome> i don't think gimp is something that we objectively need to hold on as long as we can
[20:25] <micahg> Thunderbird was probably the rest
[20:26] <charlie-tca> That's right. I heard Thunderbird added another 3 or 4 mb this wekk
[20:26] <charlie-tca> s/wekk/week
[20:26] <micahg> http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2009/11/giving-up-the-gimp-is-a-sign-of-ubuntus-mainstream-maturity.ars
[20:27] <charlie-tca> I think gimp is something we hang on to, yes
[20:27] <knome> charlie-tca, rationale?
[20:28] <charlie-tca> Ubuntu gave up gimp because they really cd space. We don't have that issue yet
[20:28] <TheSheep> knome: you want to try and persuade Adobe to let us distribute Photoshop instead?
[20:28] <charlie-tca> We are usually under 690MB for the final release
[20:28] <knome> TheSheep, bah
[20:28] <knome> i think the post that micahg pasted has some valid points
[20:29] <knome> that have nothing to do with the CD space
[20:29] <charlie-tca> I don't care what the actual final wording used was. The real reason was space on the cd
[20:29] <knome> and those are as true, and maybe even more true, for xubuntu
[20:29] <TheSheep> gimp is a professional tool
[20:29]  * micahg actually meant to find a backlash article
[20:30] <charlie-tca> If you really believe gimp needs to go, help GridCube with the reviews.
[20:30] <knome> "Its expansive assortment of rich features necessitate a complicated user interface that is intimidating to inexperienced users. It is also saddled with a lengthy startup time due to its large collection of plugins."
[20:30] <charlie-tca> Ubuntu is aimed at those users
[20:31] <charlie-tca> It is designed for the new to linux/coming from windows users
[20:31] <TheSheep> knome: do you have any suggestion for a simpler editor?
[20:31] <charlie-tca> That doesn't mean Xubuntu is going to try to grab those users
[20:31] <knome> TheSheep, not really, but there were quite many mentioned in the ML
[20:31] <TheSheep> knome: I would be interested in such a tool personally
[20:32] <knome> charlie-tca, of course not. but xubuntu shouldn't try to fill in the niche for those who want high-end editing app, ubuntu studio is for those
[20:32] <TheSheep> knome: I tried a lot of them, and only found a cool digital painting tool
[20:32] <knome> charlie-tca, and i'm not saying you should rather install ubuntu studio 
[20:32] <charlie-tca> We don't. That's why we don't install all the apps studio does
[20:32] <knome> charlie-tca, xubuntu and ubuntu studio have completely different focus groups
[20:32] <charlie-tca> +1
[20:32] <knome> charlie-tca, what's the rationale in shipping gimp then?
[20:32] <knome> TheSheep, mypaint?
[20:33] <charlie-tca> nothing comparable for editing images
[20:33] <TheSheep> knome: yeah, but it sucks for pixelart
[20:33] <charlie-tca> What is the replacement that works?
[20:33] <knome> TheSheep, yup.
[20:33] <knome> charlie-tca, i have no idea. i'd say inkscape, but it's high-end too, and it crashes too much.
[20:33] <charlie-tca> inkscape is harder than gimp
[20:34] <TheSheep> knome: and mtpaint is pretty bad
[20:34] <knome> charlie-tca, seriously, i think a really simple image editor that can crop, resize and do some other very basic functions would be perfect for xubuntu
[20:34] <micahg> inkscape is SVG only
[20:34] <TheSheep> micahg: false
[20:34] <charlie-tca> Sure, if there is one, knome 
[20:34] <knome> micahg, it can export to png :P
[20:34] <TheSheep> charlie-tca: vector graphics is harder, but I think inkscape has pretty good ui
[20:34] <knome> charlie-tca, in my opinion, inkscape was actually easier to get a grip on than gimp. that's me coming from windows.
[20:35] <micahg> ah, I didn't read far enough in the description
[20:35] <knome> gimp just has too much things visible by default, imo.
[20:35] <micahg> bug still, it's mainly SVG w/PNG export
[20:35] <charlie-tca> I tend to do more than just crop and resize, myself. I like to add colors, sometimes, and erase/hide parts of the image
[20:35] <micahg> *but
[20:35] <knome> micahg, sure :)
[20:35] <TheSheep> micahg: but it's not suitable for photos and pixels
[20:35] <micahg> so, not a good default
[20:35] <knome> charlie-tca, i consider those "basic functions" that are probably found in many editors
[20:36] <knome> micahg, TheSheep: yes, it's not a good default. :)
[20:36] <TheSheep> I think that inkscape should be installed by default
[20:36] <TheSheep> but that's separate from gimp
[20:36] <knome> i don't think so.
[20:36] <knome> maybe in ubuntu studio... :)
[20:36] <astraljava> Already is. :)
[20:36] <GridCube> charlie-tca: :/ the stuff i updated on the spreadsheet aint there anymore...
[20:36] <charlie-tca> Inkscape is very specialized, it is not your "average user" application
[20:36] <TheSheep> knome: it's excellent for making all those pdfs that people use office for
[20:36] <knome> i think that openttd should replace the games package, too ;)
[20:36] <knome> charlie-tca, is is gimp :)
[20:36] <knome> s/is is/as is/
[20:37] <GridCube> all the test done by me (as my name is in the first row) are empty D:
[20:37] <charlie-tca> GridCube: testing?
[20:37] <GridCube> yes
[20:38] <TheSheep> charlie-tca: I think that inkscape is an excellent tool for small dtp that all home computer users sooner or later do
[20:38] <charlie-tca> which first row?
[20:38] <charlie-tca> today?
[20:38] <GridCube> no every day 
[20:38] <GridCube> everyone of my test have nothing added
[20:38] <knome> i probably should know more about image editors as i'm an artist, but seriously, if i really badly need pixel editing, i just go to photoshop, because i know it so much better than anything else, and that's what makes it so quick for me.
[20:38]  * micahg thinks that's inkscape as a default app except for ubuntustudio is pointless
[20:39] <GridCube> :/ its like it didnt saved what i added to the correspondent data cell
[20:39] <knome> i agree with micahg 
[20:40] <knome> the first step would just be to create the wikipage, write some basic information and add all the apps mentioned in.
[20:40] <charlie-tca> I am not seeing any tests for four days, but your tests from the 20th are there
[20:40] <charlie-tca> I have never used inkscape
[20:40] <mr_pouit> micahg: yes, let's go the easy way, if the pinyin changes will give us some space, feel free to do them, thanks :)
[20:40] <TheSheep> charlie-tca: it's really easy to do simple stuff with it
[20:40] <charlie-tca> well, not much, anyway. I found it very difficult, compared to gimp
[20:41] <TheSheep> charlie-tca: like "have you seen my cat" poster
[20:41] <TheSheep> charlie-tca: it's not supposed to be used like gimp :)
[20:41] <charlie-tca> I couldn't make it do hardly anything, when I tried. 
[20:41] <knome> charlie-tca, it's somewhat different, yes, but the interface is very clean, and once you get a grasp of all the tools, it's a breeze
[20:41] <knome> charlie-tca, it's not for pixel-by-pixel editing, mind you :)
[20:41] <charlie-tca> GridCube: can you add those tests back?
[20:42] <TheSheep> knome: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_raster_graphics_editors#List
[20:42] <charlie-tca> Well, if you are talking about a simple, easy to use app, inkscape has a high learning curve
[20:42] <GridCube> i cant remember, but i see now that they have been edited to just say PASS thats why i didnt saw them
[20:42] <charlie-tca> so does gimp, I admint
[20:43] <knome> charlie-tca, we're not considering inkscape for inclusion in the defaults. i'd PERSONALLY do that, but not for xubuntu.
[20:43] <TheSheep> knome: pinta looks promising
[20:43] <knome> TheSheep, never used that :)
[20:43] <GridCube> charlie-tca: talking about simple, the one im personally liking lately is Pinta, i know is mono and all, but its awesome
[20:43] <charlie-tca> Pinta is still in development stages, isn't it?
[20:43] <TheSheep> knome: me neither, just saw it on that list
[20:43] <knome> i actually think we should create some really basic usecase scenarios
[20:43] <micahg> mr_pouit: will try to do later this week (it's my first time actually updating a meta package)
[20:43] <knome> like "crop and flip a photograph"
[20:43] <charlie-tca> if pinta pulls in mono, that won't really save space
[20:44] <madnick> frontend for imagemagick?
[20:44] <GridCube> and then its gnome-paint, its pretty impressive also   http://code.google.com/p/gnome-paint/
[20:44] <GridCube> madnick: that would be the most amazing thing ever
[20:44] <charlie-tca> +1
[20:44] <knome> gnome-paint resembles ms paint a bit too much imo :D
[20:45] <GridCube> knome: somehow thats the idea
[20:45] <knome> GridCube, yeah, i know
[20:45] <knome> GridCube, would you please start the wikipage? i'm sure others will chime in later?
[20:45] <GridCube> many people have learned to use the mouse, cut, copy and paste using mspaint
[20:45] <knome> - last ?
[20:46] <knome> i suppose gnome-paint can read jpg and png?
[20:46] <GridCube> knome will do, but in 2 days i have a final exam on information sources, and i can't really expend my time on that, actually i should be studying rigth now
[20:46] <GridCube> passed that day i will start doing the top 10 FAQ and the wiki 
[20:47] <charlie-tca> okay
[20:47] <charlie-tca> Keeping in mind, if it pulls in half of gnome, it is disqualified
[20:47] <knome> GridCube, okay, if you can do that after those few days, it's great
[20:47] <micahg> charlie-tca: gnome-paint's deps are already met in xubuntu
[20:48] <knome> TheSheep, i'm sure there is apps that are not mentioned in wikipedia
[20:49] <knome> TheSheep, probably those that can do other things as well, and image editing is just secondary feature
[20:49] <TheSheep> knome: impossible!
[20:49] <charlie-tca> like gimp?
[20:49] <charlie-tca> :)
[20:49] <knome> like f-spot
[20:49] <TheSheep> knome: things not mentioned in wikipedia don't exist!
[20:49]  * charlie-tca couldn't resist
[20:50] <TheSheep> knome: I pasted that link as some starting point for the research
[20:50]  * TheSheep is trying nathive now
[20:50] <knome> TheSheep, sure. did you read the ML thread?
[20:50] <TheSheep> knome: of course not
[20:50] <TheSheep> knome: wehat ML?
[20:50] <TheSheep> what
[20:50] <knome> TheSheep, xubuntu-devel
[20:50] <charlie-tca> I intentionally tried to stay out of the gimp discussion, I am trying not to influence what is being said
[20:51] <TheSheep> knome: you want me to read it?
[20:52] <charlie-tca> Will try not to throw the reviews, either. If we can find something that works, great!
[20:52] <knome> TheSheep, many apps were mentioned there
[20:52] <GridCube> (most by me)
[20:52] <GridCube> XD
[20:53] <charlie-tca> knome: I have to trust you to give some guideance to these reviews
[20:53] <TheSheep> knome: not really
[20:53] <TheSheep> knome: they are all just porn management apps
[20:53] <TheSheep> knome: not graphics creation apps
[20:53] <knome> TheSheep, yeah... just disregard whatever i wrote
[20:54] <knome> ;)
[20:54] <TheSheep> knome: I always do
[20:54] <knome> good
[20:54] <knome> and where's my polish beer?! :)
[20:54] <knome> j/k
[20:54] <TheSheep> aah
[20:54] <TheSheep> knome: no, no, I need to get down to that
[20:54] <knome> nathive doesn't look at all bad
[20:54] <TheSheep> knome: sorry
[20:54] <astraljava> Still in the polish sheep's bladders?
[20:54] <knome> i wonder how easy it is to resize/crop/flip
[20:55] <knome> nathive doesn't seem to be in the repos
[20:55] <TheSheep> the binaries are for python 2.6 :/
[20:55] <knome> BOO
[20:55]  * TheSheep gets the sources
[20:57] <TheSheep> it has a crop tool
[20:58] <TheSheep> resizing is by dragging the nodes of the image
[20:58] <knome> mmh..
[20:58] <knome> like in paint
[20:58] <knome> i don't like that style, but that's probably easy for most
[20:58] <TheSheep> can't see a way to flip
[20:59] <knome> that's bad
[20:59] <TheSheep> on the plus side, it's all python
[21:00] <TheSheep> cool, you can use the crop tool to actually enlarge your canvas
[21:01] <TheSheep> I suppose you can make the move tool allow flip, right now it just throws a python exception when you try it :P
[21:01] <charlie-tca> polishing the beer?
[21:01] <GridCube> (it is raining like... a lot... i do not have much imagination today)
[21:02] <charlie-tca> cats and dogs?
[21:02] <GridCube> yeah that
[21:02] <TheSheep> could have been worse, could rain turtles
[21:02] <GridCube> and the windows are like PAPLAM PAPLAM
[21:02] <GridCube> XD
[21:02] <TheSheep> way worse than frogs
[21:03] <charlie-tca> seems so
[21:03] <TheSheep> I think that nathive is the simplest thing that could possibly work
[21:03] <charlie-tca> worse than cats, too
[21:03] <TheSheep> unless it's cats wearing helmets
[21:03] <TheSheep> then it's about the same
[21:04] <charlie-tca> I guess it would be
[21:04] <charlie-tca> Never saw cats wearing helmets, though
[21:04] <charlie-tca> usually it is the dogs
[21:04] <astraljava> But surely cats don't weigh as much as turtles?
[21:05] <astraljava> Okay, maybe I'm thinking about the huge ones.
[21:05] <TheSheep> tortoises :P
[21:05] <astraljava> Right. :)
[21:06] <knome> teenage mutant ninja turtles?
[21:06] <astraljava> Oh THERE WE GO!
[21:06] <TheSheep> that would be a short rain
[21:06] <TheSheep> there is only 4 of them
[21:06] <astraljava> But really painful.
[21:07] <TheSheep> they claim to have a #nathive channel here, but it's empty
[21:07] <TheSheep> the project seems to be abandoned
[21:07] <TheSheep> last release october 2010
[21:07] <knome> http://media1.keepbusy.net/pics/pic-dump-87-16.jpg
[21:07] <TheSheep> damn, and it was python too :(
[21:08] <TheSheep> knome: yum yum
[21:08] <TheSheep> fhtagn
[21:08] <charlie-tca> october 2010 isn't even a year yet?
[21:09] <charlie-tca> Those poor turtles. It must really hurt
[21:09] <TheSheep> charlie-tca: it had 4 releases a month before that
[21:09] <charlie-tca> oh
[21:09] <charlie-tca> well, I guess that does make it badder, then
[21:09] <TheSheep> Next scheduled release
[21:09] <TheSheep> 0.926: Soon.
[21:09] <TheSheep> haha
[21:09] <TheSheep> dead for sure ;)
[21:10] <knome> sent mail
[21:10] <knome> let's see what we get
[21:12] <Unit193> That was one very large backlog...
[21:13] <Unit193> charlie-tca: I agree on purging USC, that's now the FIRST thing I do after installing Xubuntu
[21:13] <Unit193> (I also know it will never happen)
[21:13] <GridCube> http://kornelix.squarespace.com/fotoxx/ another one wooo! \o/
[21:15] <TheSheep> that's again a photo collection manager, not graphics editor
[21:16] <knome> TheSheep, imo that's not necessarily a bad thing, if the editor part can do things we want it to do
[21:16] <TheSheep> I wonder which one of the two kinds of software is needed
[21:16] <TheSheep> yeah
[21:17] <TheSheep> I think that one other common use case is putting some text on a cat photo
[21:17] <TheSheep> we should totally support and encourage that
[21:17] <charlie-tca> Nlol
[21:18] <TheSheep> seriously
[21:20] <TheSheep> gnome-paint has a text tool that says: Sorry, but the text feature has
[21:20] <TheSheep> not yet been implemented.
[21:20] <TheSheep> :D
[21:20] <knome> haha
[21:20] <knome> nice one that
[21:20] <ochosi> lol
[21:23] <GridCube> its like writing idkfa on quake
[21:24]  * GridCube feels old 
[21:24] <knome> iddqd?
[21:24] <TheSheep> idclip
[21:25] <TheSheep> mtpaint at least has a working text tool
[21:25] <knome> and idbeholdl...
[21:25] <charlie-tca> working text tool *should* matter
[21:26] <knome> definitely
[21:26] <TheSheep> it wouldn't be so bad if it didn't use its own icons and colors everywhere
[21:26] <knome> TheSheep, mtpaint?
[21:26] <TheSheep> yeah
[21:26] <TheSheep> and the ui is too complicated
[21:26] <knome> fix that for oneiric+1? :)
[21:26] <knome> right, then don't fix it
[21:27] <knome> TheSheep, maybe write those comments down in a text file, so you can add them to the wikipage later
[21:27] <TheSheep> for some reason you can pick 5 different colors
[21:27] <knome> in a way that's quite intelligent
[21:27] <GridCube> http://kornelix.squarespace.com/fotoxx/
[21:27] <GridCube> charlie-tca: have you seen that last one i shared 
[21:27] <knome> i'd like to be able to select 5 colors in photoshop
[21:27] <TheSheep> knome: it is also a specialized tool -- for pixel art
[21:28] <TheSheep> knome: that's why
[21:28] <GridCube> but i think we should have a criteria on what do we expect it to do
[21:28] <knome> GridCube, resize, rotate, crop, simple draw (ms paint-like)
[21:28] <knome> text also
[21:29] <GridCube> that last one meets all
[21:29] <knome> it looks gtk1'ish
[21:29] <GridCube> in the screenshots they have yes
[21:29] <GridCube> i don't know about now
[21:30] <TheSheep> knome: I don't know what the second tool is supposed to do :/
[21:30] <knome> TheSheep, rotate? or in mtpaint?
[21:30] <TheSheep> in mtpaint
[21:31] <knome> mmh
[21:32] <TheSheep> ah, shuffle
[21:32] <TheSheep> it doesn't do anything with 1px brush
[21:32] <TheSheep> but with larger brushes it randomly swaps pixels inside
[21:33] <knome> right...
[21:33] <TheSheep> for shading
[21:34] <knome> problem with fotoxx. doesn't seem to support transparent png
[21:34] <charlie-tca> I try not to look at them. It makes it so much easier to say "no, not that one"
[21:34] <charlie-tca> email sent to ml for review of panels
[21:35] <TheSheep> I will call it a day, good night
[21:35] <knome> TheSheep, night
[21:36] <knome> GridCube, where's the image editing stuff in fotoxx?
[21:37] <GridCube> in the menu retouch? i guess?
[21:37] <knome> nope
[21:38] <knome> there is pretty much no image editing stuff
[21:38] <knome> looks more like a photo manager
[21:40] <GridCube> oh... i dont know :/
[21:44] <knome> if you manage to find the tools...
[21:48] <GridCube> im not using linux atm
[21:48] <knome> whenever you are
[21:48] <GridCube> will do for the comparison
[21:48] <GridCube> :)
[21:49] <knome> great
[21:51] <GridCube> charlie-tca: i will write more for the ML but for now i have to tell you that the first panel thing on 11.04 the thing that really bothered me about it, was the web-browser icon
[21:52] <GridCube> and then that it was in the bottom, i do not understand, not know, any person that actually uses the menu bar on top, i found that whole paradigm alien to my experiences
[21:53] <charlie-tca> Where do you put the menu bar?
[21:54] <GridCube> down
[21:54] <GridCube> i mean the one whit the menu
[21:54] <GridCube> the start menu
[21:55] <GridCube> on top , if auto hided, i use the icon bar but in auto resize mode, so it wont interfire(?) when i try to close windows
[21:55] <knome> interfere
[21:55] <GridCube> thanks
[22:10] <GridCube> oh... its xubuntu-users!
[22:11] <GridCube> i dont have an account there
[22:13] <charlie-tca> what is?
[22:13] <GridCube> the mail you just send
[22:14] <GridCube> the one i just awnsered
[22:14] <charlie-tca> I sent it to both lists
[22:14] <charlie-tca> You can reply to xubuntu-devel
[22:14] <GridCube> oh i got a bounce reply
[22:15] <charlie-tca> oh, maybe it went to both lists
[22:15] <GridCube> oh then the cc its the one that failed :P
[22:15] <GridCube> (cc is "Con Copia" i dont know how its said on english)
[22:16] <knome> carbon copy
[22:16] <charlie-tca> it did too
[22:16] <charlie-tca> np
[22:16] <GridCube> oh, i see, so its the same acronym XD 
[22:18] <charlie-tca> I cheated, I sent the message to both mailing lists to get a wider response
[22:18] <knome> :P
[22:19] <GridCube> :P thats no cheating, thats responsible thinking
[22:30] <charlie-tca> vinnl says pinta is still too unstable
[22:40] <GridCube> read that
[22:40] <GridCube> :( too bad it seems so awesome
[22:41] <charlie-tca> That is the second one I have seen say it is unstable
[22:41] <GridCube> i know, its less than a year old project
[22:42] <GridCube> but is heavily based on pain.NET which is a stable project?... i dont know how that relates
[22:42] <knome> pain.net? lol
[22:42] <GridCube> it was just an option in any case
[22:43] <charlie-tca> .net is usually microsoft, isn't it?
[22:43] <GridCube> :P
[22:43] <GridCube> yes, usually, mono is the *nix version of it
[22:43] <micahg> no mono please :)
[22:43] <charlie-tca> Keep an eye on it, and see if it makes it two years
[22:43] <GridCube> XD
[22:43] <GridCube> okay
[22:43] <micahg> at least until we lose some of the other stacks (GTK2, python2.6)
[22:44] <GridCube> its gtk2+ 
[22:44] <GridCube> :P
[22:44] <micahg> right, but we don't have room for another stack, we already have an extra GTK, Webkit, and python(maybe) this cycle
[22:45] <GridCube> I understand, as said, it was just an option
[22:45] <charlie-tca> I thought python2.6 was gone?
[22:47] <GridCube> doesn't emesene depends of it? or... xubuntu doesnt come whit emesene?
[22:47] <GridCube> ... i cant remember
[22:47] <charlie-tca> !info emesene
[22:47] <micahg> charlie-tca: ah, right, but a lot of the python packages have python2.6 files still I think
[22:48] <charlie-tca> GridCube: no, I don't think we install emesene by default
[22:48] <GridCube> mmmkay
[22:49] <GridCube> i though you did
[22:50] <GridCube> say charlie-tca, why don't you think that xubuntu should be an entry level linux distro?
[22:50] <charlie-tca> Because you need some experience to be able to configure everything. Ubuntu does it all for you, but Xubuntu does not.
[22:50] <micahg> we have pidgin, why would we need emesene
[22:51] <GridCube> we have pidgin? really?
[22:51] <GridCube> i think we have empathy
[22:52] <charlie-tca> nope
[22:52] <GridCube> oh... im messing things up
[22:52] <charlie-tca> Ubuntu has empathy, we give you pidgin and xchat
[22:53] <GridCube> I see
[22:54] <GridCube> i don't remember having pidgin on 10.04
[22:54] <charlie-tca> We have had pidgin for a very long time
[22:54] <GridCube> XD oh. well i guess its just me never using it then
[22:54] <charlie-tca> We never switched to empathy or gwibber or what ever
[22:55] <GridCube> oh, well sorry then
[22:55] <charlie-tca> np
[22:55] <micahg> charlie-tca: do you want to seed pidgin-mbpurple so people can use twitter/identi.ca?
[22:56] <charlie-tca> heh
[22:56] <charlie-tca> is that why it don't work?
[22:56] <charlie-tca> Do we have room?
[22:56] <GridCube> if you delete gimp...
[22:56] <micahg> well, once we get it undersized again, pidgin-microblog is only 137k
[22:57] <micahg> so I'd say yes :)
[22:57] <charlie-tca> sure, then let's do it
[22:57] <charlie-tca> GridCube: see, how easy is it to know to install that?
[22:57] <micahg> we can always drop it towards the end if we need the extra space
[22:57] <charlie-tca> entry-level?
[22:57] <GridCube> XD
[22:58] <GridCube> ok ok
[22:58] <GridCube> but i like xubuntu and i find it pretty awesome to use, i guess it lacks a few easiness things i dont see
[22:59] <charlie-tca> It is easy to not see some things. 
[22:59] <charlie-tca> especially when it works for you!
[22:59] <GridCube> I understand
[23:05] <madnick> hehe, plymouth scripting its pretty neat stuff :)
[23:05] <charlie-tca> :)
[23:08] <madnick> I will need more information in regards of exactly what to implement, I guess I should send that request on the ML?
[23:11] <knome> madnick, yeah, that would be cool
[23:12] <madnick> I'll do that tomorrow, now I have to go to bed
[23:12] <knome> sure
[23:12] <knome> good night
[23:12]  * GridCube adverted a crisis by using a fan to air dry the wet books that were given back to him
[23:12] <knome> errmmm
[23:15] <GridCube> ah the little things about working on a library that no one tells you, raining days
[23:15] <charlie-tca> well, at leawt the cats with helmuts didn't hurt the books
[23:15] <knome> helmut? lol
[23:15] <GridCube> yep thats true
[23:16] <GridCube> a helmut is a very dangerous thing to trow at a book, not even talking about cats here
[23:16] <charlie-tca> That's true. I would suppose though with the cat is even worse?
[23:17] <GridCube> hair charlie-tca , lots of wet hair
[23:17] <charlie-tca> true. That does come from the cats
[23:17] <knome> that could come out of a Helmut, too
[23:18] <GridCube> hahaha
[23:18] <charlie-tca> Well, yes it could!
[23:18] <charlie-tca> lol
[23:22] <knome> well, that was definitely a weird movie
[23:40] <raul_> Hi!
[23:40] <knome> hello
[23:41] <raul_> how are you?
[23:41] <knome> fine, and you?
[23:41] <raul_> me too, thanks!
[23:41] <raul_> I'd like to contribute in a new xfwm theme for xubuntu, but I don't know how
[23:42] <GridCube> ochosi is the one you need to talk to
[23:42] <knome> raul_, you could start by joining the xubuntu-devel mailing list and introducing yourself
[23:42] <raul_> Hmmm, I write a "mockup" in CSS3 http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/7086/screenshot0725201108411.png
[23:43] <knome> raul_, https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-devel
[23:43] <raul_> thanks
[23:43] <knome> no problem
[23:43] <knome> this channels isn't a bad channel either, but i think ochosi is going to be away for a week now
[23:43] <raul_> so I could send my time via e-mail?
[23:43] <raul_> theme*
[23:44] <raul_> *-)
[23:44] <knome> that too, if you have something ready, but please also tell who you are, and maybe why do you want to contribute etc.
[23:44] <knome> i suppose we are using the greybird theme for oneiric though
[23:44] <raul_> yes :)
[23:44] <knome> so is that theme in css, or is it xfwm already?
[23:44] <raul_> is xfwm already
[23:45] <raul_> I write the design in CSS
[23:45] <knome> ah, right
[23:45] <raul_> and I take a print screen of the page and edited in GIMP
[23:45] <knome> at least then it wouldn't hurt to include the xfwm theme in the mail
[23:46] <raul_> but I don't made the stick and shade buttons yet D:
[23:46] <knome> (if it's a complete xfwm theme already)
[23:46] <knome> doesn't matter really
[23:46] <knome> charlie-tca, ?
[23:46] <raul_> this is based in original greybird xfwm theme
[23:46] <charlie-tca> yup
[23:46] <knome> charlie-tca, is it decided that greybird will be in oneiric?
[23:47] <charlie-tca> Yes, I think it is. 
[23:47] <knome> okay
[23:47] <charlie-tca> I don't know, maybe ML or shimmer ML?
[23:47] <knome> charlie-tca, there's no "shimmer ML" :)
[23:47] <charlie-tca> well...
[23:48] <knome> raul_, you can also send the theme at least to simon@shimmerproject.org, please also cc me, pasi@shimmerproject.org
[23:48] <charlie-tca> Let you and ochosi take a look and see what you think
[23:48] <raul_> thank you very much
[23:48] <knome> the theme doesn't look bad at all
[23:48] <knome> it reminds me much of the xfce default xfwm though
[23:48] <raul_> but I don't have time to finish this theme (the shade and stick buttons are not completed)
[23:49] <knome> raul_, no problem
[23:49] <raul_> ok :)
[23:49] <raul_> I could also send the CSS3 design file?
[23:49] <knome> raul_, if you want, that's fine too
[23:49] <raul_> hm thanks, but only work in webkit engines
[23:50] <knome> no problem
[23:50] <knome> i don't know if we have time to finish the theme in the near future either though
[23:50] <knome> ochosi is currently working with upgrades to greybird and i'm working with multiple other projects
[23:50] <raul_> I planned to make a gtk theme, but I don't know if next version of xfce will have gtk 3
[23:51] <knome> i have no idea either
[23:51] <raul_> great! I love greybird
[23:51] <knome> we're actually also making modifications to the albatross theme, do you know that?
[23:52] <raul_> no, I love Albatross but I didn't like the xfwm theme :(
[23:52] <knome> i think those window buttons could give at least some inspiration for the facelift, if not even use those
[23:52] <raul_> :D
[23:52] <knome> the xfwm theme is the xfce default
[23:52] <knome> i kind of like it, but it's a bit too contrasty, maybe
[23:52] <raul_> I could make a black version in this weekend
[23:53] <knome> are you good with icons, btw?
[23:53] <raul_> no :(
[23:53] <raul_> I made four themes
[23:53] <knome> well whatever the case, here's what i think would be the best thing to do:
[23:53] <raul_> but I abandoned the project and I've lost them
[23:54] <knome> after ochosi has come back from his holiday (maybe in a week or a bit more), come back here or #shimmer, and let's have a talk
[23:54] <raul_> I making this theme (called 'rain') since last wake
[23:54] <knome> do you know the shimmer project?
[23:54] <raul_> week*
[23:54] <raul_> ok :)
[23:54] <raul_> I will try to remember D:
[23:55] <GridCube> *bookmarks*!
[23:55] <knome> (here's something that we've tested as the new albatross xfwm buttons: http://temp.knome.fi/shimmer/albatross/new_xfwm_proposal.png)
[23:55] <charlie-tca> Can come back here and ask about building a theme again. We will point to #shimmer
[23:55] <knome> ..and we're hanging around here with ochosi anyway
[23:56] <raul_> this theme is inspired by google chrome buttons and Windows Longhorn milestone themes http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs46/f/2009/231/3/d/Longhorn_Air_Theme_Final_by_giannisgx89.jpg
[23:57] <knome> raul_, mm-hmm. i don't know windows theming much :)
[23:58] <knome> raul_, anyway, nice to see new people that are interested in artwork
[23:59] <raul_> :), I always wanted to contribute in xubuntu artwork, 'cause xfce is my favorite desktop environment
[23:59] <raul_> now, because I didn't like KDE, Gnome 3 and Unity
[23:59] <knome> raul_, btw, there is the xfce design special interest group as well, so you can contribute upstream!
[23:59] <raul_> don't*
[23:59] <knome> http://wiki.xfce.org/design/start