[07:13] <PythonPup> Howdy.  Are there any Oneiric users here?  There are two things I have not found a way to do in Oneiric.  1.  Move buttons on windows back to the right side.  2. Fix Nautilus to show location entry.   There used to be gconf setting for both of these, but gconf is gone, essentially.
[07:15] <j0nr> morning
[07:16] <PythonPup> Top of the morning to you.
[07:23] <daubers> Morning
[07:27] <hoover> good morning all
[07:29] <dwatkins> hiya
[07:32]  * daubers is off to London shortly :(
[08:08] <gord> can't for the life of me figure out how to enable dhcp hostname thingies on this new router
[08:19] <TheOpenSourcerer> man - why hadn't I heard of OSSEC before? It sounds great: http://www.ossec.net/main/
[08:20] <PythonPup> I suppose you just have not been keeping in the right crowds.
[08:25] <gord> that is neat
[08:29] <diplo> TheOpenSourcerer, are you thinking of giving it a go ?
[08:29] <TheOpenSourcerer> Almost certainly. I'm just reading a bit more before jumping in. Ideally I would like to have two servers able to report on the same agents...
[08:31] <diplo> If you do have a go I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts, interested but not a lot of time at the mo :)
[08:58] <popey> Morning all
[09:05] <gord> the new router is a christmas tree of LED's =\ it has a bunch of blinking ones at the front, some green, some blue, some red. then on the side a giant blue one
[09:13] <oimon> ubuntu startup disk creator in 10.04 doesn't work with oneiric iso :(
[09:13] <oimon> unetbootin to the rescue
[09:14] <gord> startup disk creator has always been hit and miss for me, depending more on the usb drive than anything else
[09:14] <oimon> it'z bizarre
[09:15] <oimon> noobs could get very confused with a program that only works 25% of th etime
[09:15] <gord> patches welcome :)
[09:16] <gord> honestly i think it lets you do too much, if it just said "you have to wipe the entire usb drive to put the ubuntu iso on the drive" then it would solve 99% of its problems
[09:16] <oimon> my patch would be an error window that says "maybe use unetbootin if this didn't work"
[09:36] <andylockran> hey guys
[09:36] <andylockran> just for confirmation - probably shouldn't be using hardy any more, but on the server security updates will run until april 2013 ?
[09:36] <popey> howdy howdy howdy
[09:36] <popey> !hardy
[09:36] <popey> !eol
[09:36] <andylockran> !lts | andylockran
[09:36] <popey> yes, april 2013
[09:37] <andylockran> ok, that's good - how does the update mechanism discern between a desktop and a server?
[09:37]  * AlanBell wonders too
[09:37] <AlanBell> if you have a server with openoffice.org installed on it for example
[09:39] <andylockran> yeah, interesting.
[09:39] <andylockran> I'd have thought apache is a definite to continue getting sec upgrades, and definitely a server tech
[09:39] <andylockran> but interesting to find out which it is
[09:42] <oimon> PythonPup: i have the buttons on the right in oneiric, the regular gconftool command works
[09:43] <oimon> gconftool-2 --set "/apps/metacity/general/button_layout" --type string ":minimize,maximize,close"
[09:44] <PythonPup> Oh, thank you oiman.  That's interesting.  I hgot it to work, but I changed a different place.  I did gconftool-2 --set /desktop/gnome/shell/windows/button_layout --type string ":minimize,maximize,close"
[09:44] <PythonPup> hgot -> got
[09:46] <PythonPup> I had to logot and log back in.  Maybe yours would have done it right away.  I'll test that.  Thank you for the note.
[09:48] <popey> andylockran: I have asked this question before and never got a clear answer
[09:52] <JohnRobert> does anyone know of a linux/oss alternative to flash media encoder and flash media server for streaming live video? (and I don't mean ustream etc..)
[09:52] <AlanBell> red5
[09:52] <JohnRobert> what should I use for the broadcasting/local encoding?
[09:53] <JohnRobert> eg my pc at home ----> my server (red5) ---> viewer
[09:53] <andylockran> popey: I might try and get a proper answer from someone inside Canonical - it's quite critical when we're running hardy at the moment..
[09:53] <AlanBell> dunno really JohnRobert, openMeetings perhaps
[09:53] <JohnRobert> interesting
[09:53] <JohnRobert> thanks, I guess I can get started and figure it out :)
[09:54] <PythonPup> ffmpeg for the encoder.  Lots of choices for streaming.  I used VLC for myself.
[09:55] <JohnRobert> interesting
[09:56] <JohnRobert> so ffmpeg & vlc can push out encoded streams too?
[09:56] <JohnRobert> like over rstp or whatever it is
[09:56] <andylockran> rtmpdump is also a useful tool
[09:56] <PythonPup> I just use http and ftp.  I don't know about weird things like rtsp.
[09:56]  * andylockran used it week before last to dump the online stream of the gf's graduation of the manchester uni website :)
[09:57] <andylockran> she was chuffed.
[09:57] <PythonPup> I do audio streaming constantly.  I have done just a little video streaming.
[09:57] <JohnRobert> that's cool
[09:58] <PythonPup> I understand apache can stream pretty well.  The issue is going to be how many people you are expecting to receive the stream and how much bandwidth.
[09:59] <JohnRobert> well, I want a flowplayer thing on my website playing a live stream from a red5 server running on the same server and I want to stream video to it from my pc at home
[09:59] <JohnRobert> bandwidth not an issue
[10:03] <PythonPup> But, you hate your users.  I had not heard of flowplayer.  It is evidently some flash junk.  I never install flash.
[10:03] <davmor2> morning all
[10:04] <JohnRobert> hmm
[10:04] <JohnRobert> I guess it's freedom hating yes
[10:04] <PythonPup> evidently..
[10:04] <JohnRobert> but I'm not sure how else to reliably stream video to users on a webpage
[10:04] <JohnRobert> to the biggest audience
[10:04] <JohnRobert> without people having to download plugins
[10:05] <popey> PythonPup: you are in a very small minority
[10:06] <popey> Where "very small" is 1%
[10:06] <popey> andylockran: i vaguely recall it being something like "what's in the Ubuntu server seed is supported"
[10:06] <PythonPup> If I needed to stream to a buch of people, I would first try VLC server.  I don't know how well it would do.  Then I would look at spinoffs of commercial products, like Darwin Streaming server or Helix.  (I have not used either of the later).
[10:07] <PythonPup> In what way, popey?
[10:07] <popey> "I never install flash."
[10:07] <popey> http://www.adobe.com/products/player_census/flashplayer/
[10:08] <JohnRobert> I guess some kind of html5 player could be the way forward
[10:08] <JohnRobert> maybe I should investigate that
[10:08] <popey> have you looked at the one from collabora?
[10:09] <PythonPup> If so, I am proud.  But, a) I don't believe it is that small of a number. B) Flash is so atrocious that it is the only rational choice.    Most people just don't analyse Flash rationally.  For example, do you know that you agree not to properly backup your system, if you install Flash?
[10:09] <PythonPup> They used to demand the right to enter your home and inspect your computers, but they did drop that requirement.
[10:10] <PythonPup> There must be some nice solution based on html5 for JohnRobert
[10:11] <JohnRobert> again though anyone not running IE9 or later etc.. won't be able to see it
[10:11] <JohnRobert> etc
[10:11] <JohnRobert> this is basically why people use flash
[10:11] <JohnRobert> it's not out of choice
[10:11] <popey> My point was not "flash is great"
[10:11] <popey> I am just suggesting all the requirements are looked at first
[10:12] <popey> JohnRobert: have you seen the video stream from debconf11?
[10:12] <popey> thats html5 based I believe
[10:12] <popey> maybe speak to them and ask what infrastructure they use?
[10:13] <PythonPup> I am running Firefox 6.  Does that qualify as IE9 or later.  I'll admit that I generally don't care if Windows users can access stuff I put up.
[10:14] <popey> I do.
[10:14] <popey> Windows users of today are potential Ubuntu users of tomorrow.
[10:14] <PythonPup> I'm sorry.
[10:15] <JohnRobert> heh
[10:15] <oimon> they should also be pitied rather than isolated :)
[10:15] <popey> hah
[10:15] <JohnRobert> it's not *just* IE that won't play html5 streams
[10:15] <JohnRobert> :p
[10:15] <popey> make all content available in a 320x120 window
[10:16] <popey> "If you had Free Software, you'd be able to see this in HD!"
[10:17] <gord> is IE not supporting webm?
[10:17] <PythonPup> Flumotion from Fluendo may be an option.  I don't know if there is a free version.  It supports all platforms.
[10:17] <popey> thats the one I meant when I said collabora
[10:17] <PythonPup> OK, I did not recognize the name.
[10:18] <PythonPup> I think IE is going to support webm in some future version, but not yet.
[10:18] <JohnRobert> yeah that was a guess by me if it supports the vid stuff at all
[10:19] <PythonPup> Google has a plugin at https://tools.google.com/dlpage/webmmf
[10:19] <JohnRobert> I'm pretty sure chrome does as you can put youtube into html5 mode
[10:19] <JohnRobert> and it plays on that
[10:19] <PythonPup> Chrome definitely supports it.  I have seen it, but won't install Chrome.  Chrome has an embedded copy of Flash.
[10:20] <oimon> has anyone tried changing the screensaver in oneiric? doesn't seem possible
[10:20] <gord> oimon, yup, not possible. you done got gnome-3'ed!
[10:20] <PythonPup> oimon  I changed the timeout value.  That was the only thing I could adjust.
[10:21]  * oimon is going to stab someone
[10:21] <oimon> the system settings are really irritating!
[10:22] <PythonPup> Mostly, there are not enough of them.  From an interview, it seems to be on purpose.  Mark says options divide the community.
[10:22] <oimon> it doesn't seem possbile to set the timeout to "off"
[10:22] <gord> PythonPup, this is gnome3
[10:22] <gord> this is not canonical made
[10:23] <PythonPup> This option is gnome.  Other things are cononical.  For example, in Unity2d, I can't make Firefocx come up without being full screen.
[10:24] <oimon> i don't like the "all settings" button to return to the main settings screen - i missed it the first 5 times i used it and quit the app and restarted it
[10:25] <oimon> i remember when linux was inuitive
[10:26] <PythonPup> Interesting.  debconf11 is giving everyone sim cards to talk to each other.  I wonder if they are running their own micro-cell.
[10:28] <PythonPup> It looks like they plan to document their video streaming setup at   http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf11/Videoteam
[10:29] <czajkowski> aloha
[10:30] <PythonPup> Have a good day
[10:31]  * davmor2 throws his arms around czajkowski and says Morning :)
[10:32] <gord> oimon, unfortunately, https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=647828
[10:32] <gord> clever bot
[10:34] <dwatkins> Another reason not to upgrade :(
[10:34] <gord> dwatkins, desktop might distro-patch it :)
[10:34] <dwatkins> The resolution of "NOTABUG" makes me doubt this.
[10:35] <gord> dwatkins, thats gnome, gnome said not a bug
[10:35] <Daviey> dwatkins: You could raise a Ubuntu bug and add that upstream task to it..
[10:35] <gord> we say, "yeah it is" and distropatch
[10:36] <dwatkins> ah ok, I don't know the relationship between you and gnome
[10:39] <bigcalm> Anybody here working for a bank? I have a slight concern about caching dns servers
[10:40]  * StevenR wonders how those two items are related
[10:40]  * Daviey poisons bigcalm's cache.
[10:41] <jpds> Daviey: Thought you said cake there for a second.
[10:41] <andylockran> Daviey: did you see the post re: server versus desktop
[10:41] <StevenR> did someone say cake?
[10:41] <Daviey> andylockran: no?
[10:41] <Daviey> jpds: good idea!
[10:41] <andylockran> Daviey: how to differentiate between server versus desktop when talking about LTS updates
[10:42] <andylockran> installed a ubuntu server hardy.. now between the desktop & server update windows
[10:42] <andylockran> but not sure if 100% of the packages on my server install fall under the 'server updates' 5 year promise
[10:42] <andylockran> so wondering how ubuntu discerns the difference
[10:43] <Daviey> andylockran: well... $ apt-cache show apache2 | grep Supported
[10:43] <Daviey> Supported: 18m
[10:43] <andylockran> Daviey: :)
[10:43] <Daviey> but in truth, if there is an issue in a non-core package it can still be resolved.
[10:44] <andylockran> perfect - cheers Daviey
[10:44] <Daviey> $ apt-cache show apache2 | grep Supported
[10:44] <Daviey> Supported: 5y
[10:44] <Daviey> ^^ Lucid
[10:45] <andylockran> Daviey: is there a way to run that query for all packages on the system?
[10:45] <bigcalm> I'm wondering if banks and large companies are likely to cache dns
[10:45] <Daviey> andylockran: dpkg --get-selections, awk, | etc... but i'd be tempted to use the python apt bindings :)
[10:45] <andylockran> Daviey: ta
[10:45] <jpds> bigcalm: I guess it entirely depends on their IT team.
[10:46] <bigcalm> Indeed
[10:47] <bigcalm> I'll just have to continue tailing the access logs on hosts A and B. Once A stops updating I know that everybody now looks at B
[10:48] <bigcalm> http://www.whatsmydns.net says that the change has been made globally
[10:49] <oimon> gord: i am aghast at the sheer arrogance of the gnome commenters on that bug
[10:49] <andylockran> Daviey: ta
[10:53] <StevenR> bigcalm: how large is the TTL on the record?
[10:56] <bigcalm> StevenR: It's an hour. But won't caching dns servers ignore that?
[10:56] <bigcalm> I don't have direct control over the dns server sadly
[10:58] <StevenR> bigcalm: why would they?
[10:59] <bigcalm> Save in transactions and therefore bandwidth
[11:00] <StevenR> they shouldn't.
[11:00] <StevenR> if the TTL at the source is an hour, caching servers should honour that.
[11:00] <bigcalm> *should* :)
[11:01] <StevenR> otherwise, they're broken.
[11:01] <hoover> hi biggie
[11:01] <bigcalm> I have no idea if they will or not
[11:01] <bigcalm> Hey hoovie :)
[11:01] <bigcalm> Browsers caching is another problem
[11:02] <StevenR> bigcalm: I've not noticed browsers do much DNS caching tbh.
[11:02]  * bigcalm shakes his fist at VirginMedia
[11:02] <bigcalm> Still waiting for them to update
[11:03] <StevenR> bigcalm: well, when did you make the switch?
[11:03] <bigcalm> I requested the change be made at 10:34 and got a responce at 10:47 that it had been done.
[11:04] <StevenR> bigcalm: ok, so that might still take 15 mins to hit all DNS servers (it does where I work, a change on the master isn't made immediately)
[11:04] <StevenR> *isn't replicated
[11:05] <StevenR> so you've probably got another 15 mins or so.
[11:06] <bigcalm> From ns1.netnames.net (where the record lives)
[11:06] <bigcalm> totalderivatives.com.   3600    IN      A       94.236.35.8
[11:06] <andylockran> anyone familiar with python-apt point out which module I should be using for a function similar to: apt-cache show
[11:07] <bigcalm> From VirginMedia
[11:07] <bigcalm> totalderivatives.com.   17139   IN      A       80.79.128.93
[11:07] <bigcalm> An odd TTL number there from VM
[11:07] <StevenR> bigcalm: ok. that's broken.
[11:07] <StevenR> bigcalm: not really, it's a "cache ttl" kind of thing
[11:07] <StevenR> bigcalm: so it'll decrease until it expires
[11:08] <bigcalm> I see
[11:08] <bigcalm> So in about 4ish hours
[11:08] <bigcalm> And that's just VM
[11:08] <StevenR> 4.7 hours to go.
[11:08] <bigcalm> I have no idea about all the other caching servers in the world
[11:09] <StevenR> bigcalm: if you're wanting to turn a server off, can it wait until tomorrow?
[11:09] <bigcalm> Anybody else fancy doing a dig on their ISP's dns?
[11:09] <bigcalm> StevenR: hopefully
[11:10] <StevenR> totalderivatives.com.3599INA94.236.35.8
[11:10] <popey> totalderivatives.com.   3600    IN      A       94.236.35.8
[11:10] <StevenR> I get consistant cached results from my ISP
[11:10] <bigcalm> At least both hosts access the same database. So the transition should be smooth
[11:10] <popey> our internal dns shows the new IP too
[11:11] <bigcalm> popey: thank you :)
[11:11] <popey> but then it would because there will be no caching here
[11:11] <popey> because nobody has ever looked that host up
[11:11] <StevenR> bigcalm: I suspect you'll see stuff on the old until tomorrow.
[11:11] <bigcalm> And you haven't asked for that domain name before now :)
[11:12] <Daviey> StevenR: replications from master to slaves happens near immediately with my nameservers :)
[11:12] <bigcalm> Fair enough
[11:12] <brobostigon> afternoonings everyone.
[11:12] <bigcalm> Gah, already?
[11:12] <bigcalm> Hi brobostigon
[11:12] <brobostigon> hi bigcalm
[11:12] <StevenR> Daviey: that's nice. We can't do that (too many changes!)
[11:13] <Daviey> StevenR: seriously?  an AXFR isn't that intensive.
[11:13] <bigcalm> Wish netnames.net allowed full record transfers
[11:14] <ubuntuuk-planet> [Gary Kearley] giffgaff - http://kearley.net/giffgaff/
[11:14] <StevenR> Daviey: it's over multiple sites, etc. I don't work on that team, so I don't know how bit it is, but changes can take upto 15 mins to be replicated.
[11:14] <StevenR> *how big it is
[11:16] <kaushal> Hi
[11:16] <kaushal> How do i invoke cron every sec
[11:16] <brobostigon> i noticed an interesting bug yesterday with google+ app, and andoird gingerbread, with gps on, when you write a new post, it would poll the gps to find the position, but would shortly after FC, after you try and choose the position.
[11:16] <davmor2> kaushal: why would you want to
[11:16] <kaushal> * * * * * root /usr/lib64/sa/sa1 1 1
[11:16] <brobostigon> android*
[11:17] <kaushal> davmor2: I am testing an application
[11:17] <popey> kaushal: have you searched on google?
[11:17] <kaushal> davmor2: is it possible ?
[11:17] <kaushal> popey: yes
[11:17] <popey> there are lots of threads about this
[11:18] <popey> cron has a minute granularity
[11:18] <popey> not seconds
[11:18] <kaushal> ok
[11:19] <kaushal> popey: http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/linux-newbie-8/how-to-run-crontab-job-for-every-5-seconds-667315/
[11:19] <kaushal> not sure how do i set it
[11:19] <gord> kaushal, you might have more luck with "while true; do <your program here>; sleep 1; done"
[11:19] <kaushal> ok
[11:19] <popey> which is what that link does
[11:20] <popey> and what most other results on google suggest
[11:20] <kaushal> gord: so put while true; do <your program here>; sleep 1; done ?
[11:20] <kaushal> in a file ?
[11:20] <kaushal> bit confused
[11:20] <kaushal> apologies
[11:20] <popey> that link has an explicity example
[11:20] <popey> -y
[11:20] <gord> kaushal, just put it in a terminal, replacing <your program here> with your program
[11:21] <kaushal> gord: i always want it to run
[11:21] <kaushal> so background ?
[11:21] <kaushal> efficient way to do it
[11:21] <gord> just don't close the terminal?
[11:21] <kaushal> gord: so screen ?
[11:21] <bigcalm> Put it in a screen?
[11:22] <gord> if  you want?
[11:22] <kaushal> ok
[11:22] <bigcalm> Put it in a cronjob that runs every x mins and checks if it's already running
[11:22] <bigcalm> Eggdrop bots do this very well
[11:22] <bigcalm> kaushal: google botchk for hints
[11:30] <Daviey> kaushal: Whilst you can (ab)use cron to run something every second, i suspect you are doing it wrong.
[11:30] <bigcalm> I keep forgetting that ABP is running and wondering why adverts on a client's site weren't working
[11:34] <oimon> brobostigon: there was a problem with google+ on android yesterday
[11:34] <oimon> i couldn't even get past the inital screen
[11:35] <brobostigon> oimon: i got past that, souns like a different cause.
[11:54] <oimon> what would be the reason for an installed app not appearing in the unity dash search list, or the "installed applications" list?
[11:58] <BigRedS> Is there a way to force the sidebar thingy in unity to hide when it's deciding to not autohide?
[11:58] <BigRedS> ah
[11:58] <BigRedS> just don't use full-screened (as in F11) windows
[12:01] <BigRedS> oimon: at a guess, it's just not put itself in the menu properly
[12:01] <BigRedS> I've no real idea, but that's how I'd make that search work
[12:02] <gord> oimon, it not having a .desktop file
[12:02] <gord> or if its chosen to hide itself from search/menu's
[12:02] <oimon> gord, the app is gimp
[12:03]  * oimon wonders if new gimp will arrive in oneiric
[12:05] <oimon> hmm seems that gimp 2.8 is still some way away
[12:08] <popey> WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
[12:08] <popey> That is all.
[12:10] <oimon> nurse, somebody needs their pills please
[12:10] <gord> man, #ubuntu-uk is going to be a riot when we are all pensioners
[12:11] <oimon> most people still using xchat i expect
[12:14] <oimon> i've worked with loads of old guys in IT who always go on about mainframes etc and never moved on in their knowledge much. i wonder what the stumbling block will be for those of us in their 30s/40s now? cloud? something else?
[12:15] <gord> 30s/40's? old? o_O
[12:15] <mar_33> hey guys, my Desktop folders and files suddenly disappear but when I list it from terminal I find each and every thing of it . I confuse any help :S
[12:15]  * gord hides from the flack
[12:15] <oimon> gord..i mean the old guys late 50s/60s probably stopped learning new stuff in their 40s
[12:18] <popey> What is this client-server you speak of?
[12:18] <mar_33> what about my question ????
[12:18] <BigRedS> mar_33: I don't know how to do it, but I suspect you just need to toggle the showing of the contents of ~/Desktop on your desktop in whatever DE you're using
[12:19] <gord> mar_33, it sounds like nautilus is crashing, but i can't really help you more than that
[12:19] <oimon> a lot of users at my place still login to a particular machine to run pine (as per in the 90s) . i tell them they can run it from any host i.e. their own machine, but they persist. i am thinking of changing the ip of that box to 127.0.0.1
[12:20] <BigRedS> I still not-infrequently log on to my machine to run mutt.
[12:21] <oimon> i haven't bothered to learn ipv6 yet
[12:21] <BigRedS> makes more sense to me to do that than arse around with imap/pop3/smtp settings. SSH does a perfectly good job of encrypting teh connection and doesn't require config
[12:21] <popey> I used to quite like using pine
[12:21] <popey> about 15 years ago
[12:21] <oimon> BigRedS: yeah but these guys get the same config experience whatever machien they logon to (automounted home dirs), nothing to configure
[12:22] <popey> change is bad
[12:22] <popey> fear change
[12:22] <BigRedS> well, surely they'd have to configure it initially
[12:22] <BigRedS> and what's the benefit? The old way works just as well as the new way
[12:22]  * BigRedS might be a tiny bit of a luddite
[12:22] <oimon> BigRedS: if it works on the "magic server", it works just the same on their own box
[12:23] <BigRedS> oh, so even the server has the same ~ as their pc?
[12:23] <oimon> yes
[12:23] <oimon> automounted nfs home dirs ftw
[12:23] <BigRedS> ah. Well, there's no reason to *not* connect to the 'server' in that case then :)
[12:23] <oimon> some also do a remote -X connection to run mathematica/maple to their machine :(
[12:25] <ging> oimon: can automounted home dirs like that cope with having more than 1 distro ?
[12:26] <BigRedS> ging: it's more the versions of whatever writes its config files to ~ that matters than the distro (though that is somewhat defined by the distro)
[12:26] <oimon> ging: sort of..i'll explain
[12:27] <oimon> i use ubuntu, whereas most other machines here use scientific linux. so my tomboy applet etc won't load on the SL boxes. even worse, my firefox version is different and plugins may not work, or worse, get uninstalled.
[12:28] <oimon> different versions of SL5.0-5.7 are absolutely fine.
[12:28] <oimon> but i tend to use KDE on SL box , and gnome on ubuntu machine to avoid shagging up my gnome config, and if firefox is running on my box, it will have a .lock file and start acting funny
[12:29] <ging> i guess that's 1 way around it
[12:30] <oimon> most staff don't have an issue because it's just a few of the IT support dudes who run ubuntu
[12:30] <oimon> i'm getting a bit nervous about the KDE4 upgrade in SL6.1 - how will users cope?
[12:30] <oimon> it's not even a recent KDE4 version
[12:31] <diplo> Anyone used Hylafax much here ?
[12:38] <GreenDance> Afternoon :)
[12:45] <hoover> hello
[12:49] <GreenDance> by any chance does anyone here know CSS?
[12:49] <GreenDance> #css is all quiet
[12:49] <wintellect> GreenDance: a little, what do you want to know?
[12:50] <GreenDance> wintellect: I'm having trouble with a cell, I want it to be 100% height of the browser, but it doesnt seem to want to work
[12:51] <GreenDance> wintellect: ill get the code for you, 2 secs please
[12:51] <wintellect> ok - pastebin it
[12:51] <daubers> lo
[12:51] <wintellect> lo daubers
[12:53] <daubers> quiet in here today isn't it
[12:54] <wintellect> I only arrived - about 2mins before you
[12:55] <GreenDance> wintellect: http://pastebin.com/SAaMMWfm
[12:55] <wintellect> GreenDance: looking...
[12:56] <GreenDance> wintellect: thank you
[13:01] <wintellect> GreenDance: almost there
[13:02] <GreenDance> wintellect: thank you
[13:04] <wintellect> adding it to pastebin for you
[13:04] <GreenDance> thanks
[13:06] <wintellect> GreenDance: http://pastebin.com/fJjyHUmv
[13:07] <wintellect> GreenDance: essentially, it works on the premise that "body" is set to a height of 100% and the divs have an "absolute" position, then when their height is set to "100%" the calculation is based upon their parent's height
[13:09] <GreenDance> wintellect: the code isn't displaying correctly in the browser
[13:10] <wintellect> how so?
[13:11] <ormiret> can anyone point me in the right direction for letting users start/stop services without sudoig to root (if that's possible)?
[13:11] <GreenDance> wintellect: theres a scroll bar on the right hand side to go up and down, the code isn't displaying at the height of the browser
[13:11] <wintellect> what is it doing wrong GreenDance ?
[13:11] <wintellect> GreenDance: it is, just that you have a div along the top called "header"
[13:12] <wintellect> GreenDance: I guess you could try and fix this by moving the "left" and "center" divs up by the height of the "header" box
[13:13] <StathisV> Hello! Three weeks before I was installed the Ati Radeon HD 6670 in my computer under  Ubuntu 10.04.  I had a lot of problems with ati drivers and usualy my system in booting,  message me  "checking battery state" and then died . The problems were solved when I made upgraded to 11.04 with "radeon" vga driver. But suddenly yesterday the same message had rise. What should I do to fix it? I
[13:13] <StathisV> was searching the internet, but nothing useful found.
[13:13] <GreenDance> wintellect: i don't understand, sorry
[13:56] <hoover> cheers all
[14:08] <BigRedS> hah. I emailed First Direct asking if there's anything I'm likely to want to do that I can't do online, for example replace a lost or stolen card.
[14:08] <BigRedS> They've responded saying that some things need doing over the phone, like registering for telephone banking :/
[14:13] <DJones> BigRedS: With my bank, if I want to order a cheque book via online banking, I have to register for telephone banking........?
[14:14] <BigRedS> haha
[14:14] <ubuntuuk-planet> [Kwabena Aning] Moving to Scala - http://blog.kaning.co.uk/archives/290
[14:15] <BigRedS> I think I'm going to go with them in any case - they publish a geographical number for enquiries which is also 24hr. That, I think, is as good as the banking industry does :(
[14:17] <oimon> that reminds me, i need a new chequebook - banks never send them automatically when you finish anymore :(
[14:18] <czajkowski> are cheques still in operation thought they were being phased out ?
[14:18] <BigRedS> yeah, but it's a very slow phasing out
[14:19] <oimon> how else do i pay the plumber?
[14:19] <DJones> The banks recently announced that they weren't getting rid of cheques in 2018 as planned
[14:20] <DJones> Going to be kept for "as long as customers need them" http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14122129
[14:20] <DJones> But no cheque guarantee cards anymore
[14:22] <BigRedS> that sounds an awful lot like banks acquiesing to their customers' demands
[14:23] <BigRedS> that's rather nice of them
[14:24] <DJones> Not sure about that, sounds more like the government/mp's have lent on the banks to say don't do it
[14:29] <BigRedS> ah, perhaps. I was all impressed with the banks for a moment there
[14:30] <oimon> cheques are really useful in certain situations
[14:30] <oimon> i can't see anything filling the gap tbh
[14:30] <popey> cash?
[14:30] <BigRedS> Nah, cash is too trasnferable
[14:31] <popey> Book tokens!
[14:31] <BigRedS> in that a cheque is only valuable to whomever you've made it out to, no point in someone else nicking it, no great loss if it's misplaced
[14:31] <BigRedS> I think we should just return to a barterting system
[14:31] <popey> luncheon vouchers!
[14:32] <gord> writing IOU on a piece of paper?
[14:32] <oimon> .staff at my old company used to leave luncheon vouchers lying around, up to £100 worth.
[14:32] <popey> i recall being on holiday in spain with some chaps, a local gentleman of african extraction was attempting to tell us some very low quality watches
[14:32] <oimon> i used to say to them , thats money, you know...they would be ....nah!
[14:32] <popey> my friend was teaching him the barter system
[14:32] <popey> it was the most fun I had on holiday
[14:34] <BigRedS> haha
[14:35] <davmor2> popey: Yeah they operate the barter system up here too, it's more like give it me or I kill you but that is still a fair barter right ;)
[14:35] <popey> he used to hold his hand up in the air "you're up here mate", then hold his hand at the ground "I'm down here", "We need to meet in the middle, here!" (holiding his hand 1cm off the floor)
[14:35] <popey> ☺
[14:36] <oimon> anyone know anything about family tax credit ?
[14:36] <popey> my wife does :D
[14:36] <davmor2> oimon: the T'interweb does
[14:36] <popey> she deals with that stuff :D
[14:37] <oimon> it doesn't answer my question though :(
[14:37] <oimon> which is:
[14:37] <popey> 12!
[14:37] <davmor2> oimon: that why you can't get and answer my friend
[14:38] <davmor2> oimon: you need to ask the question :D
[14:38] <oimon> say bob earns 45k but gives 10k/year to charity. then his income (for tax purposes) can be regarded as 35k. therefore with the tax credit system, would bob get the family tax credit, or forfeit it because the ceiling is around 40k income
[14:38] <popey> surely the deduction would have to be done at source for that to work?
[14:39] <oimon> HMRC don't have an issue normally
[14:39] <popey> and I'm not sure it does mean his income is 35K
[14:39] <oimon> taxable income..
[14:39] <davmor2> oimon: the clue is in Bob earns part of that statement
[14:40] <oimon> some employer do allow deduction at source, i just wonder if it is necessary
[14:42] <DJones> oimon: fromthe tax credits website "We need to know the income from working as an employee in the tax year 2010-2011."
[14:42] <DJones> Definition of earnings is at http://taxcredits.hmrc.gov.uk/ntchelp/helppane.aspx?H_VER=1.7&helpTopic=Glossaryearnings&helpType=undefined&v1=http%3A//taxcredits.hmrc.gov.uk&v2=&tmt=
[14:43] <oimon> if bob earned 35k and his wife sheila earned 35k, there would be no problem. if bob's wife is a full time mum and earns 0k , but bob earns 45k there is a problem
[14:44] <oimon> so bob needs to look into GAYE scheme
[14:45] <DJones> Thats how I read it
[14:46] <oimon> that sucks, because bob's charitable giving could be a regular portion, but also large lump sums
[14:46] <oimon> which is not possible to include in GAYE
[14:46] <oimon> bob's going to be upset when he hears this
[14:46] <oimon> i'll recommend that he take a pay cut
[14:46]  * popey wonders whether bob runs the charity
[14:47] <oimon> nope
[14:47] <popey> and whether bob is just using this to pay less tax and earn via other means
[14:47]  * popey is sceptical like that
[14:47] <oimon> not that either
[14:47]  * BigRedS wonders whether bob is a beneficiary of the charity :)
[14:48] <oimon> cynical bunch :)
[14:48] <BigRedS> haha
[14:49] <oimon> it's a shame that some of sheila's tax entitlement can't be shared by bob..rich people manage to do this somehow
[14:50] <oimon> bob can pay into his pension to reduce the figure, but not to charridy
[14:52] <DJones> Probably worth a phone call to the help line, might just be something that doesn't come up vey often & hasn't been mentioned on the website
[14:53] <oimon> yeah, i'll suggest that to bob :) i think he had some problems last time getting through
[15:01] <HazRPG> I see to have nothing but trouble with U1MS :/
[15:01] <HazRPG> I think this is only like the 3rd time I've bought something from it...
[15:01] <HazRPG> but my song still hasn't been transferred to my u1 account for syncing to my desktop ;/
[15:06] <popey> HazRPG: poke them in #ubuntuone
[15:06] <popey> they're nice chaps
[15:06] <popey> even that aquarius bloke
[15:06] <HazRPG> popey: cheers, might just do that :)
[15:06] <HazRPG> didn't realise they had a channel
[15:07] <HazRPG> popey: ah, just read title and clicked links... seems there's a known disruption to the service at the moment
[15:08] <HazRPG> date was 2011-07-20 on the wiki
[15:14] <oimon> my bank won't let me make a payment to the inland revenue of 0.30p
[15:14] <oimon> 30p
[15:16] <DJones> It is coming up to the end of the month, a lot people wouldn't have 30p left in their account :)
[15:17] <oimon> that's my tax bill for the year. it says i have to pay a minimum of £1
[15:18] <DJones> Nice tax bill
[15:20] <popey> heh
[15:22] <oimon> they said i didn't need to do a tax return this year but i did one anyway , cos i don't really trust then
[15:25] <oimon> looks like my giant offlineimap backup failed half way :(
[15:27] <HazRPG> oimon: heh, that must be the best tax bill ever
[15:27]  * popey doesn't dare look at his tax bill
[15:27] <DJones> HazRPG: nah, that would be a refund of 30p
[15:27] <oimon> the best one was when i got 2k :)
[15:28] <HazRPG> heh nice
[15:28] <oimon> although to be fair, it just meant i had overpaid by loads
[15:28] <HazRPG> yeah
[15:33] <oimon> the way i see it, if people in your g+ circles perform a +1 on a link, it goes higher in your google search results, right?
[15:37] <HazRPG> Only for the affected parties, not for an anonymous user
[15:37] <oimon> yep
[15:37] <HazRPG> If I +1 a link, that will result in a higher rate of appearance to those logged in on their google account and are following me.
[15:38] <GreenDance> wintellect: Hi, are you still here?
[15:39] <GreenDance> wintellect must be away
[15:40] <GreenDance> offtopic: does anyone else here know css please?
[15:40] <BigRedS> GreenDance: someone might, but nobody's likely to admit to it until you've given some clue as to how much knowledge you need
[15:48] <GreenDance> BigRedS: I know a little, but not much, if anyone could help me with this I'd be most greatful, my problem is for the past 2 days i couldn't get this to work, I have 3 cells, a header, a menu, and a content area, the problem I have is, I would like the menu and content area to be 100% the height of the browser and not spill over if there is no content, also my menu has disappeared when i
[15:48] <GreenDance> say 100%, but if I say 250px it appears, http://pastebin.com/5txMSTAY
[15:57] <andylockran> guys - how do you boot into single user mode in natty?
[15:58] <popey> hold shift to get grub prompt
[15:58] <popey> e to edit boot line and add "single"
[15:58] <andylockran> popey: doesn't seem to want to work
[15:58] <andylockran> left shift/right shift?
[15:58] <DJones> left shift
[15:59] <Laney> anyone fancy verifying https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/tomboy/+bug/667736 ?
[16:04] <popey> bigcalm: your linksys/cisco thing... did you say you have ddwrt on it? if so, did you flash it first with some hardware specific image then another different one?
[16:05] <popey> bigcalm: my boss had one arrive today, he found some online guide which said to do that
[16:05] <popey> seemed to work fine and be fully up to date after first patch
[16:08] <gord> i went with some netgear thing, not brave enough to go with ddwrt
[16:08] <popey> well, boss did the flash thing on the cisco one he bought, was very easy
[16:08] <Laney> people are hawking their affiliate codes on planet u-uk now?
[16:11] <popey> Laney: people as in Gary.
[16:11] <Laney> he's not a person?
[16:12] <popey> he is very much a person
[16:12] <popey> I take "people" to mean "more than one person"
[16:13] <BigRedS> popey is strongly typed
[16:15] <daubers> Gah!
[16:16] <daubers> spent _ages_ laying out a PCB, then realised that I had the pins wrong on a chip, now it's probably quicker to just start again :(
[16:16] <popey> can you not use a pcb layout thing that does it for you?
[16:18] <bigcalm> popey: was a little while ago now. I recall using one image to start with and then another to fine tune
[16:19] <bigcalm> Flip, wrong key
[16:20] <bigcalm> ctrl+q/w need to be unbound from x-chat
[16:21] <bigcalm> I was trying to say that it works atm. So I will bring it as is and let you brick^wflash it
[16:22] <popey> hah
[16:37] <popey> Yay! Humble Bundle 3!
[16:37] <popey> http://www.humblebundle.com/
[16:41] <shauno> ugh.  so a kid at work tried to make a joke about their being no games on the mac.  me being a smart-ass, fired lemmings up in dosbox.  it went straight over his head because *drumroll*  he'd never heard of lemmings
[16:41] <shauno> so not only am I not funny, but I'm now old to boot.
[16:41] <bigcalm> But you also have lemmings to play :D
[16:41] <BigRedS> never heard of lemmings?
[16:41] <BigRedS> what?
[16:42] <popey> my kids will like crayon physics
[16:42] <gord> every time the humble bundle comes out i already own all the games =\
[16:43] <popey> I've only ever already owned one
[16:43] <popey> world of goo
[16:44] <gord> popey, congrats :)
[16:44] <gord> popey, second to top contributor
[16:44] <popey> heh
[16:44] <popey> for about 3 seconds I bet!
[16:48] <gord> popey, yup look at that, someone took you over =\
[16:50] <popey> gord: refresh
[16:53] <gord> popey, *cough*
[16:53] <popey> haha
[16:54] <popey> wait till notch turns up
[16:54] <gord> yeah no i'm not matching him.
[16:54] <popey> also, linux average, again
[16:56] <gord> yup, linux users are awesome :)
[16:57] <davmor2> popey: is notch the guy with more money than sense?
[16:58] <davmor2> gord: Nice 1¢ more
[17:05] <davmor2> gord: I got to ask when do you have time to play all these games?
[17:06] <popey> he doesn't have children :D
[17:06] <popey> there are some of the old bundle I haven't even played yet!
[17:06] <popey> I will play them when I retire ;)
[17:07] <gord> yeah my evenings and weekends are entirely my own ;)
[17:07] <popey> and the cats
[17:07] <gord> also i don't do a very good job of finishing games http://backloggery.com/gordallott
[17:12] <gord> aww here come the big guys
[17:13] <exobuzz> oh no another humble bundle for me to throw money at and never get the time to play the games
[17:14] <exobuzz> im stilling playing some from bundle 1
[17:14] <exobuzz> popey, wow. you are generous!
[17:15] <exobuzz> crayon physics looks cool heh
[17:17] <popey> well.. the way I look at it, my kids will play those games for _hours_
[17:17] <exobuzz> aah yeh hehe
[17:17] <popey> I could spend that amount on _one_ visit to the cinema
[17:17] <exobuzz> don't buy the popcorn :)
[17:17] <popey> which would be 2-3 hours of entertainment
[17:17] <popey> haha
[17:17] <popey> might go and see Cars 2 at the weekend thinking about it
[17:18] <popey> tell the kids "you cant go to the cinema, daddy spent your pocket money on games"
[17:19] <exobuzz> popey, a few of these games look decent. a few erm. dont :)
[17:20] <exobuzz> ill do my usual "somewhat more than the average purchase but not as generous as popey" then heh
[17:23] <MartijnVdS> \o/ back from UK
[17:23] <MartijnVdS> *fires up sound-juicer*
[17:29] <popey> haha
[17:31] <MartijnVdS> popey: "<£5" bins are great :)
[17:31] <popey> :D
[17:32] <MartijnVdS> popey: http://www.discogs.com/MC-Hawking-A-Brief-History-Of-Rhyme-MC-Hawkings-Greatest-Hits/release/1302580
[17:32] <exobuzz> heh nerdcore
[17:33] <gord> vvvvvv is wonderful, you can beat it rather quickly too :) best game on there, crayon physics deluxe is a lot of fun, didn't like and yet it moves much. not got to cogs or hammerflight yet
[17:33] <MartijnVdS> exobuzz: Quite :)
[17:33] <exobuzz> MartijnVdS, do you know mc fronatalot also ?
[17:33] <HazRPG> MartijnVdS: what did ya do in England :)?
[17:33] <MartijnVdS> exobuzz: I have heard some of his stuff
[17:33] <HazRPG> s/England/UK/*
[17:34] <MartijnVdS> HazRPG: Going to the Scifi thing with the daubersman and AlanBell and some other people who turned up
[17:34] <AlanBell> yay
[17:34] <MartijnVdS> HazRPG: (the scifi thing = bl.uk/sciencefiction)
[17:34] <exobuzz> MartijnVdS, this one ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeV0pLRyM7o
[17:34] <HazRPG> MartijnVdS: Ah cool, doh! Didn't realise that was this weekend o.o
[17:34] <exobuzz> one of my faves heh
[17:35] <MartijnVdS> exobuzz: "First World Problems" I think I saw
[17:35]  * popey goes home
[17:35] <popey> ttfn all
[17:35] <MartijnVdS> \o
[17:35] <exobuzz> ive also heard some stuff from Optimus Rhyme
[17:35] <exobuzz> MartijnVdS, the video is quite nice from that one i linked.
[17:35] <MartijnVdS> exobuzz: those names.. 8-)
[17:36] <exobuzz> hehe
[17:37] <MartijnVdS> exobuzz: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fow7iUaKrq4 -- kill -9
[17:38] <exobuzz> wow. thats even nerdiercore
[17:38] <exobuzz> ok. i doubt id listen to that heh
[17:39] <daubers> Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
[17:39]  * daubers just sent his first PCB to the magic company that makes them
[17:57] <hamitron> daubers: how many layers?
[18:00] <StevenR> daubers: pcb to do what?
[18:02]  * MartijnVdS guesses something storageish
[18:05] <daubers> StevenR:  Building a set of light gates for someone at work :) Just a mux chip and a load of LDRs
[18:06] <daubers> (32 LDRs, 2 lasers and some wireless chips to transmit the data)
[18:45] <Azelphur> lol fujitsu just came out with a intel atom phone
[18:45] <Azelphur> official estimated battery life: 2 hours
[18:46] <ali1234> does it run meego?
[18:46] <StevenR> windows 7 iirc
[18:47] <ali1234> oh
[18:47] <ali1234> well there you go then
[18:47] <ali1234> if it's a full PC it's not going to have good battery life
[18:47] <Azelphur> indeed
[18:47] <ali1234> would be good candidate for meego port though
[18:48] <ali1234> oh it dual boots
[18:48] <ali1234> you can't make phone calls from W7
[18:49] <ali1234> and the phone OS presumably has better battery life
[19:23] <popey> evening all
[19:24] <MartijnVdS> \o
[19:24] <MartijnVdS> Either I bought too many CDs, or my CD drive is way too slow
[19:37] <MartijnVdS> finally done with the juicer
[19:47] <daubers> lo
[20:09] <andres-kain> yay! software centre now works!
[20:09] <andres-kain> but now keyboard is miss configured
[20:10] <MartijnVdS> and you're happy about that? :P
[20:10] <andres-kain> missing the other /
[20:10] <andres-kain> yep. cause i think i can solve that!
[20:11] <MartijnVdS> right-alt + / might help?
[20:12] <andres-kain> nope.
[20:12] <andres-kain> funny I have two keys for < and two keys for >
[20:13] <andres-kain> oH wait a minute found it!\
[20:13] <MartijnVdS> did you select the wrong layout?
[20:14] <andres-kain> it seems so. I had to install the whole thing, used the auto detect.
[20:14] <MartijnVdS> andres-kain: you can (re-)select a keyboard layout in the preferences -> keyboard dialog
[20:35] <gord> it would be nice is routers came with an option in their firmware for turining off the LED's
[20:35] <mgdm> Ooooh yes
[20:35] <mgdm> leccy tape is suboptimal
[20:35] <bigcalm> I was going to say
[20:36] <MartijnVdS> Soldering iron, replace with normal diodes.
[20:36] <mgdm> I'd settle for a switch
[20:36] <mgdm> I don't want them permanently dead
[20:36] <MartijnVdS> you can solder those in too
[20:36] <gord> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mi-CR6owrxA my latest router led conundrum
[20:37] <gord> until i get some pain or black nail varnish or something i'v had to make do with taping some paper over the big led thing
[20:37] <gord> it litterally lights up a corner of the room
[20:37] <MartijnVdS> gord: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=765xVYO3aAU
[20:37] <MartijnVdS> gord: it has configurable LEDs
[20:38] <gord> MartijnVdS, fun
[20:38] <MartijnVdS> gord: and it does _everything_ you'll ever need (wifi-n dualband concurrent, dect, isdn, analog phones, SIP, gigabit, USB printer/disk sharing, bandwidth monitoring, power monitoring)
[20:38] <MartijnVdS> gord: etc.
[20:39] <mgdm> £LOL?
[20:39] <MartijnVdS> mgdm: I got mine for free -- my emplo^H^H^H^H^HISP gives them away with contracts
[20:39] <MartijnVdS> mgdm: you have to be in .nl though
[20:39] <mgdm> ah
[20:40] <MartijnVdS> also, IPv6 :)
[20:40] <mgdm> One of my medium-priority projects is to make my DD-WRT router do IPv6 for my network
[20:41] <MartijnVdS> I get native v6 over DSL
[20:41] <MartijnVdS> also, I will be getting it on fibre next year \o/
[20:41] <MartijnVdS> 500/500 mbit fibre
[20:41] <MartijnVdS> FttH.
[20:41]  * MartijnVdS does a happy dance
[20:42] <mgdm> shiny
[20:42] <popey> wow
[20:42]  * popey moves to MartijnVdS' house
[20:42]  * hamitron flexes with his 600/440
[20:42] <MartijnVdS> popey: 61k homes have been connected, by the end of next year >200k
[20:43] <popey> blimey
[20:43] <mgdm> ♫♪ OggCamp is happening at MartijnVdS' house, MartijnVdS house ♫♪
[20:43] <popey> heh
[20:44]  * MartijnVdS doesn't press the "unlock lobby" button on his intercom system :)
[20:44]  * gord moves to MartijnVdS's house and starts his own UK isp
[20:44] <hamitron> what worries me about these high internet speeds.... gonna make my house cables reduntant :/
[20:45] <MartijnVdS> hamitron: my house has gigabit ethernet. It'll cope with 500/500 just fine
[20:45] <gord> hoping Be start offering a fibre plan later this year, that would be nice
[20:45] <hamitron> mine is 100mbit
[20:45] <hamitron> :/
[20:46] <hamitron> the cable says cat5e, so should be ok
[20:46] <hamitron> but it was the cheapest I could find
[20:46] <hamitron> ;)
[21:05]  * daubers needs to do a B&Q run tomorrow
[21:19] <mgdm> not as good as a BBQ run
[22:21] <czajkowski> Daviey: are you here ?
[22:22] <Daviey> czajkowski: always
[22:23] <czajkowski> Daviey: ok join when I say join
[22:23] <Daviey> czajkowski: uh ok