[00:10] <knome> i think it's time to prepare going to sleep
[00:10] <knome> good night and see you tomorrow/later! :)
[00:11] <astraljava> Have a good night, sir!
[02:30] <charlie-tca> knome: I don't know if the ops list is up-to-date. I never saw it before
[12:18] <knome> mr_pouit, read the problem of Wizard in #xubuntu 
[14:11] <madnick> Hm, I did not concider this, we will need some neat graphics for the text input label of the plymouth theme
[14:11] <madnick> I made it simply a black label for now
[14:12] <knome> madnick, text input?
[14:12] <madnick> knome: it can promt for password
[14:12] <knome> a-ha
[14:14] <knome> need to think about that
[14:14] <madnick> :)
[14:14] <knome> it's not too straightforward
[14:16] <madnick> its crawling up to 1k lines slowly ;)
[14:16] <knome> hehe, nice
[14:16] <knome> i was wondering...
[14:16] <knome> can we fade in the fsck bar/text
[14:16] <madnick> yes
[14:16] <knome> that would be cool
[14:17] <knome> and maybe just fade in everything
[14:17] <charlie-tca> please don't
[14:17] <madnick> :D
[14:17] <knome> charlie-tca, ?
[14:17] <charlie-tca> makes the eyes go nuts
[14:17] <charlie-tca> many people can not handle much in the fading thing
[14:18] <charlie-tca> small bits fading are fine, but a lot of it makes it unusable for a lot us
[14:18] <knome> then maybe just fade in the fsck stuff
[14:18] <madnick> well, if its just the FSCK it happens every 20 boots i think
[14:18] <madnick> and we decided we shall not display anything unless it takes +5 seconds
[14:18] <knome> or anything else that might come up after the initial draw
[14:18] <knome> fsck can be even less than every 20 boots :)
[14:19] <madnick> iirc it does a forced check
[14:19] <charlie-tca> So, if boot gets down to 10 seconds, and we wait 5 seconds to see the fsck, people will think it broke?
[14:19] <knome> charlie-tca, fsck usually takes longer than 10 seconds anyway
[14:19] <madnick> Atm fsck isnt even showing, in the script that was there
[14:20] <knome> charlie-tca, the reasoning behind that was to NOT show any useless stuff unless it's taking long (>5secs)
[14:20] <knome> charlie-tca, reduces the amount of information sent to the user, who might not understand what something meangs
[14:20] <charlie-tca> I know, my point is if the boot is very fast, 5 seconds can be a long time
[14:20] <knome> -g
[14:20] <knome> exactly.
[14:20] <knome> but it's not too long
[14:20] <knome> anybody will wait for 5 secs
[14:21] <charlie-tca> will the user see the splash screen or a blank
[14:21] <madnick> splash
[14:21] <madnick> it will look like its loading
[14:21] <charlie-tca> no, they won't. They will report bugs if it takes 50% longer to boot at times
[14:22] <madnick> okay
[14:22] <charlie-tca> people time the boot process. If it takes 10 seconds some times, and 15 seconds other times, they will file bug reports for boot taking too long without knowing why it is doing that.
[14:22] <knome> charlie-tca, i disagree. if they get feedback after 5 secs on what's happening, it is not too slow. booting always takes way more than 50% longer if the fsck check jumps in.
[14:23] <charlie-tca> so, the fact that it takes my computer 1 minute to boot, sometimes and 1 and 1/2 minutes at other times, you don't think I would question?
[14:23] <knome> charlie-tca, no, because after 5 secs, you are getting feedback on what is taking that 30secs longer.
[14:23] <charlie-tca> That 5 seconds is the same for some people. It is a great deal of time to them
[14:23] <knome> charlie-tca, the thing is, they'd have to wait that 5 seconds anyway
[14:24] <charlie-tca> but they should know why they are waiting
[14:24] <knome> they will, after 5 secs
[14:24] <charlie-tca> They should not have to wait 5 seconds
[14:25] <charlie-tca> They should know during that time what is happening, if it is not a normal boot time for their computer
[14:25] <knome> they will have to wait for the fsck process to finish anyway
[14:25] <charlie-tca> Then why can't they be told immediately?
[14:26] <charlie-tca> We need to tell the user what any delay is, that we know of.
[14:26] <charlie-tca> Not create a wait for them to find out
[14:26] <knome> if a process takes less than 5 seconds, why clutter the interface, because the user might not understand what the message means anyway, or have time to read it.
[14:26] <knome> right now there is no visual feedback on fsck, as madnick told
[14:26] <charlie-tca> If they don't understand the message, why bother with one at all?
[14:27] <knome> i'm okay with leaving the text out, if you really think so.
[14:27] <charlie-tca> The no feedback is why it needs to be added to plymouth. 
[14:27] <charlie-tca> There is a bug report for that
[14:27] <charlie-tca> Then stop working on it
[14:27] <charlie-tca> There is no point in you making decisions that are wrong
[14:28] <knome> err
[14:28] <knome> i don't like people who are attacking me personally.
[14:28] <madnick> okay, so we go with showing the text and progress directly
[14:28] <charlie-tca> yes
[14:28] <charlie-tca> The whole idea is telling the user something is happening
[14:29] <charlie-tca> If we are not telling the user what happened, we are creating a problem for them.
[14:30] <charlie-tca> As boot times drop, it becomes more important to tell the user as much as possible.
[14:30] <madnick> yes
[14:31] <charlie-tca> 5 seconds is very little at 1 to 2 minutes to boot.
[14:31] <charlie-tca> 5 seconds is twice as long at 5 seconds to boot
[15:55] <knome> madnick, do you think it would be too hard to create the version with the delay and take a screencap, just so i could see how that would look?
[15:56] <knome> astraljava, woot, you didn't tell jussi about QI?! :)
[16:00] <madnick> knome: i could create a seperate version for you :)
[16:00] <madnick> and sceencap
[16:01] <knome> madnick, thanks. at first i'd just like to see how that looks like. charlie might be right about it, but i want to see if this made it visually more clear, as i suspect.
[16:01] <madnick> do you also want the fadeS?
[16:01] <knome> if that's not too much work
[16:01] <madnick> ok sure
[16:01] <madnick> it'll take a lil while
[16:01] <knome> no problem, and thanks a lot!
[16:02] <madnick> knome: i do have some issues with the textbox however
[16:02] <madnick> We cannot use the old one
[16:02] <knome> what kind of?
[16:02] <madnick> And I tried making different colors, but it was just not blending in
[16:03] <knome> so do you just need artwork for that, or is there other problems too?
[16:03] <madnick> No thats the only problem 
[16:03] <knome> okay
[16:03] <knome> i'll try to create something that fits in later today
[16:03] <madnick> I can show you how that part looks
[16:03] <knome> sure
[16:05] <madnick> dont pay attention to the graphics, its from a version im testing stuff on
[16:05] <madnick> http://www.madnick.se/~madnick/screen_selection_00.png
[16:05] <madnick> just the box
[16:05] <knome> uh, yeah, that doesn't work...
[16:05] <madnick> too me, its too transperant, i wouldnt see it
[16:05] <knome> that's the box for the text, or the text input?
[16:05] <madnick> yes
[16:06] <knome> which one?
[16:06] <madnick> oh, for the text input
[16:06] <madnick> sorry i read it quickly
[16:06] <knome> yeah
[16:06] <knome> i'll try to come up with something
[16:06] <knome> something as unobtrusive as possible
[16:06] <madnick> in the version im giving you, do you need the progressmeter for fsck? because that will need to simulated
[16:07] <knome> if possible, yes, but it doesn't have to "move"
[16:07] <madnick> okay
[16:07] <knome> just fade in something
[16:07] <knome> :)
[16:07] <madnick> sure
[16:16] <madnick> knome: here is the fade http://www.madnick.se/~madnick/fade.ogg
[16:17] <knome> imo that looks good.
[16:17] <knome> i think you have to ask the project lead though, if he approves
[16:17] <madnick> I dont like the fade personally :)
[16:18] <knome> we can leave that out too
[16:18] <knome> i'd maybe fade in the fsck text
[16:18] <madnick> Well, if people want fade, ill do fade ofcourse
[16:18] <knome> not necessary really
[16:19] <madnick> knome: i can show you how that looks
[16:19] <knome> let's get it done otherwise as ready as possible
[16:19] <knome> then think about the polishing stuff
[16:19] <madnick> okay
[16:19] <madnick> Its not much left to do on the technical part
[16:19] <knome> okay
[16:20] <madnick> Well, some fsck stuff, but otherwise not
[16:20] <knome> will the progressbar bg be transparent in the final version like in my mockup?
[16:21] <madnick> I could programmatically make it transparant, but you could also provide transperant png that you would like to use
[16:21] <knome> sure!
[16:21] <knome> just a sec
[16:22] <knome> http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/oneiric_plymouth/progressbar_bg.png
[16:23] <madnick> :)
[16:24] <madnick> knome: dude that looks awesome :P
[16:24] <madnick> much better
[16:24] <knome> thanks
[16:24] <knome> np
[16:24] <knome> if you need any other stuff, just tell me
[16:24] <knome> the mockup i made is svg and i can export easily
[16:25] <madnick> acctually, if its not too much trouble, that white part of hte progressmeter
[16:25] <knome> sure, just a sec
[16:26] <knome> http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/oneiric_plymouth/progress_meter.png
[16:26] <knome> there you go
[16:26] <madnick> thanks
[17:33] <knome> will be back later
[19:59] <madnick> knome: perhaps we should hide the top progress meter when fsck is doing its work?
[20:00] <madnick> i almost got confused myself :)
[20:00] <knome> madnick, or stop it?
[20:00] <madnick> thats true
[20:00] <madnick> i could try that, and you can have a peek?
[20:02] <knome> sure
[20:02] <madnick> gimme 1 sec
[20:02] <knome> had a horrible migraine attack
[20:02] <knome> no hurry
[20:02] <madnick> migrane is aweful
[20:02] <madnick> used to have them all the time when i was working
[20:03] <knome> yeah, it's actually worse in the summer, since the hot air doesn't really help
[20:07] <madnick> darn :) recoded the audio
[20:08] <knome> haha
[20:09] <madnick> http://www.madnick.se/~madnick/plyfoo.ogg
[20:10] <madnick> (nobody worry about the fade, this is just the version of the script im testing stuff on)
[20:10] <knome> mm, that's not bad
[20:10] <astraljava> knome: Ahh... damnit! I forgot! Well, at least now there's something to do tomorrow. :)
[20:11] <knome> i'm not sure if stopping the original slider gives any extra clearness, but it's definitely not bad either
[20:11] <knome> astraljava, hihi, well i told jussi to ask you about QI
[20:11] <knome> madnick, what do you think if the normal progress slider went left-right-left-right...
[20:12] <madnick> that could be arranged
[20:12] <madnick> it probably better
[20:12] <madnick> :P
[20:12] <knome> madnick, i think that's what's been used in ubuntu
[20:12] <madnick> oh okay
[20:12] <knome> madnick, it is slighty less obtrusive i think, because nothing suddenly (dis)appears
[20:13] <madnick> yeah i was thinking about smoothing that
[20:13] <madnick> but back and forth is also cool
[20:13] <knome> yeah good! :)
[20:13] <knome> i think you can also increase the speed a notch
[20:13] <madnick> okay
[20:13] <knome> what about using the blue color for the fsck bar, like in http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/oneiric_plymouth/draft3.png ?
[20:14] <knome> would that confuse less or more
[20:14] <knome> it kind of tells the user "this is a different process"
[20:14] <madnick> i think it would be cool, i just didnt have a transperant version myself
[20:14] <knome> but i'm not sure how people will perceive that
[20:14] <knome> ah
[20:14] <knome> do you want me to export something? :)
[20:14] <knome> the bar background is the same
[20:15] <knome> it's only the moving part that changes
[20:15] <madnick> yeah then i just need hte moving part :P
[20:15] <knome> okay
[20:15] <knome> how do you want it?
[20:15] <knome> 1px wide?
[20:15] <madnick> also, did you think about the text input bar?
[20:15] <astraljava> OH man, that draft3 is magnificent!
[20:15] <madnick> knome: if you like
[20:15] <madnick> i think 1px is fine
[20:15] <knome> yeah, but no ideas yet
[20:16] <knome> astraljava, thanks, and thanks to madnick, we're pretty close of actually already having that...
[20:16] <astraljava> You guys rock!
[20:16] <knome> madnick, i'm afraid we're losing the "blur" effect on the sides though...
[20:16] <madnick> well, size does not matter
[20:16] <madnick> i will scale it accordinly
[20:17] <knome> hmm
[20:17] <knome> right
[20:17] <knome> that might just work
[20:17] <knome> i'm not sure about how good scaling looks, but let's try
[20:17] <madnick> yeah
[20:17] <knome> i have an another idea if that looks bad
[20:18] <madnick> okay
[20:18] <madnick> i am a little worried about the text input, because all things i tried was "bad"
[20:18] <madnick> The best idea I had
[20:18] <madnick> was putting the input on the top
[20:18] <knome> http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/oneiric_plymouth/fsck_bar.png
[20:19] <madnick> thanks
[20:20] <knome> http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/oneiric_plymouth/draft4.png
[20:20] <knome> text input idea
[20:21] <knome> (insert text on top of the line)
[20:21] <madnick> knome: the bar looked really good 
[20:21] <madnick> ok looking
[20:21] <knome> or, the *****'s
[20:21] <knome> madnick, nice!
[20:22] <TheSheep> knome: it doesn't scream "I'm a text input, put text in me" at me :(
[20:22] <madnick> I feel color blind people could have a problem with this one
[20:22] <knome> mmh
[20:22] <knome> what if we added a title
[20:22] <knome> "Insert your password"
[20:22] <knome> doesn't that replace the progressbars anyway?
[20:22] <knome> or am i wrong
[20:22] <madnick> It could
[20:22] <knome> yeah,
[20:22] <knome> let me work on an another mockup
[20:23] <TheSheep> knome: I think people are really expecting a box, it can have shiny outline, but basically an empty rectangle is what I would expect
[20:23] <knome> TheSheep, that just looks fugly
[20:23] <TheSheep> knome: I know it's not nice
[20:24] <TheSheep> knome: it's a tradeoff
[20:24] <TheSheep> you knwo what I mean
[20:24] <madnick> the current "box.png" is that, and i pasted a picture, it did not look that nice
[20:24] <TheSheep> there are lots of things you can do with a box
[20:25] <knome> http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/oneiric_plymouth/draft5.png
[20:25] <knome> the textbox is always selected anyway, isn't it?
[20:25] <TheSheep> knome: maybe add a couple of large arrows too ;)
[20:25] <knome> arrows? lol
[20:26]  * TheSheep ducks
[20:26] <madnick> you could say that knome 
[20:26] <madnick> (its just an illusion)
[20:26] <knome> there doesn't need to be any visual feedback on that
[20:26] <knome> but if you type something, it doesn't matter where the input box is
[20:27] <knome> as long as any input is catched
[20:27] <charlie-tca> What is the password for? lightdm should have it's own, right?
[20:27] <madnick> yes
[20:27] <madnick> its for encrypted disks
[20:27] <madnick> i use it with alternate cd
[20:27] <charlie-tca> Oh, I like that idea. Anything would be better than the black box on black background using black text that comes up now
[20:27] <TheSheep> hm, in that case an explanatory text would be better, then you don't need the box or anything
[20:28] <knome> TheSheep, did you look at draft5?
[20:28] <TheSheep> knome: yes
[20:28] <knome> http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/oneiric_plymouth/draft6.png
[20:28] <knome> for visual feedback on text input
[20:28] <knome> (an idea)
[20:28] <TheSheep> knome: yeah, you don't even need that line
[20:28] <madnick> oh it goes above?
[20:28] <knome> yeah, that's what i thought :)
[20:29] <madnick> sweet man
[20:29] <TheSheep> knome: just add the huge arrow as we agreed ;)
[20:29] <knome> TheSheep, and the pink bunny?
[20:30] <TheSheep> knome: no, but you can make the arrow sparkle
[20:30] <charlie-tca> Keeping in mind, that is a pass phrase, and could be several lines, too.
[20:30] <charlie-tca> or can the line be reused as needed to fit everything?
[20:30] <madnick> Yeah it wouldnt be great moving down the boxes
[20:30] <TheSheep> "type the first two chapters of your novel here"
[20:30] <madnick> if we added a marker
[20:31] <TheSheep> an arrow!
[20:31] <madnick> if would be like when entering into a password <input> html box
[20:31] <charlie-tca> well, at least 255 characters, I think it is for the passphrase
[20:31] <charlie-tca> but if the machine doesn't have to give new lines, it would be nice, too
[20:31] <charlie-tca> half the time now, you type blind, hoping it accepts it
[20:32] <madnick> btw, charlie-tca did we establish no fades?
[20:32] <TheSheep> hidden passwords are a thing of the past anyways
[20:32] <charlie-tca> no, we requested few fades, if we are using them
[20:32] <knome> TheSheep, yeah, let's show it plaintext
[20:32] <madnick> okay, few fades
[20:32] <knome> TheSheep, that way you can check if it's correct
[20:33] <TheSheep> knome: have a checkbox to show it
[20:33] <charlie-tca> The only requirement is to tell users what is happening, as it happens
[20:33] <madnick> yep
[20:33] <charlie-tca> I don't care where they type, how long, whether or not it shows in a box, etc.
[20:33] <madnick> http://www.madnick.se/~madnick/fade.ogg
[20:33] <madnick> i made that earler for knome 
[20:33] <charlie-tca> I like knome's #5
[20:34] <knome> madnick, let's not use the fade to fade in everything
[20:34] <knome> madnick, maybe only fade stuff in after the password prompt has disappeared
[20:34] <madnick> okay, but the text?
[20:34] <charlie-tca> madnick: my artistic eye screws that up, I can't tell what is happening. knome will judge that better than me
[20:35] <knome> madnick, mmh, yeah, right
[20:35] <knome> let's fade in:
[20:35] <knome> - the fsck bar and the text, ALWAYS
[20:35] <knome> - the "normal" progress bar after password prompt is faded out
[20:35] <knome> madnick, does that make sense?
[20:35] <madnick> yes
[20:35] <knome> great
[20:36] <madnick> i wonder how much time we got to fade stuff out however
[20:36] <knome> just make it a quick transition
[20:36] <knome> if we don't have time, then heck, just skip fadeout/in
[20:36] <madnick> We have time for in's, since it only takes less than a second currently
[20:37] <knome> yeah
[20:37] <knome> the transition can be pretty quick
[20:37] <knome> no need to use a 8sec transition ;)
[20:37] <madnick> :P
[20:37] <knome> i'm happy as long as nothing doesn't (dis)appear from/to nothingness
[20:38] <madnick> is something else in the plymouth setup changed?
[20:38] <madnick> currently fsck is messaged like this
[20:38] <madnick> (from the new version i mean)
[20:38] <madnick> plymouth --update=fsck:sda1:0
[20:39] <madnick> for example, and if thats changed i will need to adjust
[20:39] <knome> no idea, mr_pouit might know
[20:39] <madnick> okay
[20:41] <knome> bah, michael vogt isn't online so i can't bug him either
[20:43] <madnick> btw, seems the alternate cd's are broken
[20:43] <madnick> dependency broken
[20:51] <charlie-tca> for oneiric?
[20:52] <charlie-tca> desktop images are broken; failed to build today, so yes, I would expect alternate images are broken too
[20:52] <charlie-tca> They changed lightdm again
[20:53] <madnick> oh i see
[21:42] <NWH> Hello: I have a simple question. 
[21:42] <knome> if it's support question, then use #xubuntu :) otherwise, go ahead
[21:42] <NWH> How do I edit my html file /var/www/html
[21:43] <NWH> Sounds like support to me as well. 
[21:43] <NWH> :) Have a good one. 
[21:43] <knome> np
[21:43] <knome> join there, and i'll try to help
[21:43] <knome> :)