/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/07/28/#ubuntu-meeting.txt

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NCommander#startmeeting14:59
MootBotMeeting started at 09:59. The chair is NCommander.14:59
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]14:59
davidmG'day NCommander15:00
NCommandermonring15:00
NCommander[link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2011/2011072815:00
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2011/2011072815:00
NCommander[topic] Standing Items15:00
MootBotNew Topic:  Standing Items15:00
NCommander[link] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/ubuntu-armel.html15:00
MootBotLINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/ubuntu-armel.html15:00
NCommander[link] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/ubuntu-armel-oneiric-alpha-3.html15:01
MootBotLINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/ubuntu-armel-oneiric-alpha-3.html15:01
NCommanderso it looks like we're making good progress on work items and progression towards A315:03
NCommanderbeyond that, anyone else have anything to say?15:03
GrueMasterStill a lot to do, and A3 is next week.15:03
davidmGive me a minute15:04
davidmThe burn down for A3 is not looking good15:05
GrueMasterWe'll have to postepone all of ogra's workitems.15:06
davidmYes, lets make that happen today please15:06
davidmHe is on holiday, they should have been postponed when he left15:07
NCommander[action] NCommander to postpone ogra's workitems15:07
MootBotACTION received:  NCommander to postpone ogra's workitems15:07
NCommandercan I move on?15:08
GrueMasterpersia: Any chance you will get to the encryptfs testing this week?15:08
davidmAnother items we need to postpone?15:08
davidmpersia, is in western europe this week so I doubt it, postpone15:08
GrueMasterI will need to postpone a couple.  The ipv6 test tools don't compile on linux yet.15:09
davidmOK GrueMaster adjust the workitems today please15:10
davidmNCommander, move on15:10
GrueMasterThe encryptfs is something either I or mahmoh can knock out with a preseed.15:10
GrueMasterWill do.15:10
davidmOK15:10
NCommander[topic] ARM Server Status (NCommander, Daviey)15:11
MootBotNew Topic:  ARM Server Status (NCommander, Daviey)15:11
NCommanderw.rt to server status, I've good news that its possible to complete a headless install on OMAP4 enc to end once you PXE boot the installer15:12
davidmNice15:12
infinity\o/15:12
NCommanderThank GrueMaster and mahmoh for testing.15:12
NCommanderI got nothing else, Daviey ?15:13
NCommander[topic] Kernel Status (cooloney, ppisati)15:14
MootBotNew Topic:  Kernel Status (cooloney, ppisati)15:14
davidmNCommander, I just added an item to the Meting page15:15
davidmmake that meeting page15:15
NCommanderdavidm: k15:16
NCommanderso looks like ppisati and cooleney aren't around so moving on15:16
NCommander[topic] ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo)15:16
MootBotNew Topic:  ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo)15:16
NCommandermade some progress on omcal on why it segfaults but no fix or workaround yet sadly15:17
NCommanderdid find ocaml is heavily thumb2 unsafe and shouldn't have been marked safe/no porting15:17
davidmWill is work in ARM mode?15:17
NCommanderstill failed when I tried it15:18
NCommanderstill investigatign deeper.15:18
NCommanderanyone else?15:19
infinityI haven't done any FTBFS work this week, though I should do again soon.15:20
NCommanderanyway, moving on15:20
NCommander[topic] ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)15:20
MootBotNew Topic:  ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)15:20
* NCommander has nothing new on this subject15:22
NCommanderso moving on ...15:22
GrueMasterWhat is the status of iMX51/53 images?  Feature Freeze is coming in two weeks.15:22
davidmGood question15:22
infinitypersia put some work into it, but then stalled on some kernel support issues.15:22
mahmohI'd like to know if there should be a separate kernel for server, or separate boot args, I should think so.15:22
infinityI haven't had a chance to do anything here, and he hasn't forwarded me his stuff.15:23
GrueMasterI would think it would be critical to get an image building, even if it doesn't work.15:23
persiaMy stuff doesn't result in a usable machine at this stage.15:23
davidminfinity, lets take that up with Linaro early next week15:23
* infinity nods.15:24
cmaginamahmoh: +1 on the server kernel image15:24
davidmI'll ship and Imx 52 to jani this week15:24
davidmboot args maybe extra kernel not at this point15:24
mahmohok, I think I have a bug to track it but who's going to look into it?15:25
davidmGrueMaster, we will likely need a FF exception for IMX5315:25
davidmmahmoh, what do you need turned on/off from standard kernel?15:25
mahmohelevator=deadline  at least15:26
GrueMasterWe should probably do some perfomance analisys on the server kernel boot args.15:26
mahmohbug 81415715:26
ubottuLaunchpad bug 814157 in base-installer (Ubuntu) "arm net install fails to install server kernel after selecting Ubuntu Server" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/81415715:26
mahmohagreed GrueMaster15:26
davidmNCommander, ^^15:26
mahmohit may or not make sense, but I don't want to lose track of it15:26
cmaginawe will want to investigate the best scheduler for server workloads15:27
davidmNCommander, can you look into 814157 please15:27
NCommanderk15:27
infinityI'm not sure if it's worth discussing until we have "server" hardware.15:27
NCommandermahmoh: server kenl on omap4 is pointless15:27
davidmGrueMaster, yes we should test differnet schedulers for perfomance15:27
mahmohmaybe so but someone should still look into it and verify that's true15:28
NCommanderdavidm: scheluders are heavily IO bound; numbers gleamed off a panda are useless IMHO15:28
cmaginawe still need to be aware that it is highly likely to be necessary for when we get server hardware15:28
davidmWe should set up tests to be rerun once server hardware aval15:28
GrueMastermahmoh: Let's get together after the meeting to discuss testing.15:28
davidmSame as we are doing on all other tests15:28
mahmohack15:29
NCommander[topic] QA Status (GrueMaster)15:29
MootBotNew Topic:  QA Status (GrueMaster)15:29
GrueMasterMost of the easy workitems for Alpha 3 have been completed and documented.  The remaining few will require some development work.15:30
GrueMasterWork on automating these tests for future execution has been slow, but progressing.15:30
GrueMasterFocus is currently on getting tests to run with good documentation so that they can be automated in the future.15:30
GrueMasterSpot testing the daily preinstalled image builds is looking good.  No glaring bugs on install.  Unfortunately, not a lot of app testing has happened yet, with all the focus on server.15:30
GrueMasterThe remaining test workitems  for Alpha 3 will require some research to setup, and in the case of ipsec/ipv6, the only tests I have found are for freebsd and will need some coder work.15:32
GrueMasterThe good side of that last, is these are the tools used for ipv6-ready certification testing.15:32
GrueMastermahmoh: Anything to add to the QA stuff?15:34
mahmohjust focusing on automating the testing and so they're tested nightly15:34
mahmohwe're updating the wiki to make it more friendly15:35
mahmohif others would like to contribute to typical server applications/loads, please discuss and feel free15:35
mahmohif you've testing things and would like to add the results, please discuss and feel free15:35
mahmohthe more the merrier15:36
mahmohthat's it15:36
GrueMasterNCommander: move15:38
davidmNCommander, moving on.....15:39
NCommander[topic] Wiki updates by EOD Friday 29 July 2011 (Davidm)15:41
MootBotNew Topic:  Wiki updates by EOD Friday 29 July 2011 (Davidm)15:41
davidmFolks we have to have the wiki updates in tomorrow without fail15:42
NCommanderI did some work on this last night made some progresss on the landing and OMAP pages15:42
davidmI'm working with QA but willing to help anywhere15:42
davidmReview pages, if you don't like them or think they are out of date, please fix15:42
davidmvery important15:43
NCommanderanything else?15:43
GrueMasterAm I the only one that thinks any of our pages that require scrolling should have a TOC?15:43
mahmoh+115:43
davidm+115:44
persiaGrueMaster: That's a good plan15:44
davidmhi persia15:44
davidmMake use of color where it makes sense in tables it really makes it easier to read and is easy to do15:45
NCommanderIll wokr more on this today15:45
NCommandercan I move on?15:45
davidmMoving on15:45
GrueMasterMight also be useful to have an /Arm/Template15:45
NCommander[topic] AOB15:46
MootBotNew Topic:  AOB15:46
GrueMasterThe USB performance issues we are seeing on Panda may be more widespread than just OMAP3/4.15:47
GrueMasterI have heard mention of it effecting other dev boards, like the Tegra2.  Not sure on the babbage.15:48
davidmWe need to poke at Linaro next week about this15:48
davidmPerhaps their Landing team can sort this15:48
NCommanderqnything else or can I close?15:49
davidmOK to close by me15:49
NCommander#endmeeting15:50
MootBotMeeting finished at 10:50.15:50
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kees\o17:54
* kees looks around for more tb members...18:03
sabdflhi folks, sorry to be late18:12
keessabdfl: no problem; still hoping to get keybuk and mdz18:13
keessabdfl: right now it's just the two of us. mdz said he'd likely be available in 10 minutes18:13
sabdflok18:13
sabdfli'll step afk till then18:13
mdzkees, back now18:23
keesmdz: okay, excellent.18:24
keesI think this'll be pretty quick. sabdfl, you ready?18:24
sabdflyup, hi18:25
kees#startmeeting18:25
MootBotMeeting started at 13:25. The chair is kees.18:25
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]18:25
kees[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda18:25
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda18:25
kees[TOPIC] Action review18:26
MootBotNew Topic:  Action review18:26
kees* Set series RM to ubuntu-release (cjwatson)18:26
keesit looks like this still needs to be done (the bug is not closed)18:26
kees* Brainstorm review update18:26
keesI _think_ cjwatson said he'd work on this, but I can't find last meeting's summary. And there's nothing I saw in email, so I think this is still to be done as well.18:26
mdzkees, I think so as well18:27
kees[TOPIC] Policy proposal for extensions repository18:27
MootBotNew Topic:  Policy proposal for extensions repository18:27
kees[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PartnerRepositoryPolicy18:27
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PartnerRepositoryPolicy18:27
keesfrom what I understand, they would like some review of this document18:28
mdzIIRC, the last time this came up, it was written as a standalone document, and we asked that it be changed to be a delta relative to existing package policies18:29
mdzand it looks like that has happened (thanks!)18:29
keesyeah, that part has happened. it seems like there has been no further discussion in July on this. it probably needs some comment on the mailing list.18:29
mdzwe also wanted to unify it with the ARB's policies18:29
mdzor rather, have them all fit into the same policy framework18:29
keeswhich they did too18:29
kees"This policy applies to software published through one of the extension repositories Extras, Partner, and Commercial"18:30
mdzI have been pretty bad with email the past 6 weeks18:30
mdzthe structure looks great18:31
keesyeah18:31
mdzreading over the content now18:31
keeshow about we all send some notes to the mailing list, CCing allison and nick?18:31
sabdfldo they mean copyright enforcement, rather than assignment?18:32
mdzI'm confused by the reference to 4.5 debian/copyright18:32
mdzbut I don't have that section in front of me (there's no hyperlink)18:32
kees[ACTION] all to send some notes on the Extension Repository Policy proposal18:32
MootBotACTION received:  all to send some notes on the Extension Repository Policy proposal18:32
mdzpackages in the extension repositories should surely still have normal debian/copyright files18:33
keeslet's take todo items each to review and send email. I think that would be more productive.18:33
mdz(esp. since they seem to often bundle free software)18:33
mdzkees, ok18:33
mdzthat may significantly delay my response though ;-)18:33
keesI'll include anything that jumps out here in my email, if that helps :)18:34
mdzkees, I can't find the email to t-b@ requesting review18:34
keesmdz: Message-ID: <4E0C58FB.8090402@canonical.com>18:34
mdzkees, thanks18:34
keesmdz: ah, found it in archive too: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2011-June/000946.html18:35
sabdfli think "board majority +1" is appropriate18:35
kees[LINK] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2011-June/000946.html18:35
MootBotLINK received:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2011-June/000946.html18:35
kees[TOPIC] DMB voting procedure18:35
MootBotNew Topic:  DMB voting procedure18:35
keesthe most recent I can find on this thread is https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2011-July/000956.html18:36
sabdflso, if there are not enough +1's in the meeting to reach that, it's enough to get the remainders via email18:36
keesright, I guess it's mostly about if they're voting +1 and -1 or +1 and 0. it sounds like they do +1 and 0.18:37
macosabdfl: do you mean there need to be $board_majority +1s and then any number of +0 or -1  or do you mean the total must be +$board_majority?18:37
keesso, you just need enough "yes" votes, and the "no" do not count18:38
macokees: there are sometimes -1s in the DMB. a vote in june where there was one is how that discussion got started18:39
sabdfli think it's OK to appoint someone if a majority approve and a minority dissent18:39
keesmaco: right, and I think the primary question is "is -1 allowed?"18:40
sabdfli think dissention warrants discussion, not a veto18:40
geserkees: so a application with 4 +1 (4 members present) gets the same way accepteg like the theoretical case of 4 +1 and 3 -1 (7 members present)?18:40
sabdfli think it's ok to say "you need the support of a majority of the board"18:40
keesgeser: that's what I'm trying to understand. I'm not advocating, just trying to spell out the interpretations18:40
keessabdfl: so, the expectation is "must have majority, with votes of +1, 0, and -1 allowed". then the question is "what are absent members' votes? forced to be 0?"18:41
mdzI'm glad that the DMB is considering this carefully, as I think the sensitivity of membership votes warrant it18:41
mdzbut I think the KISS principle should apply as well18:42
macokees: assumed 0, unless the +1s fall short, then we take it to the mailing list  <-- current procedure18:42
cody-somervilleI think that if two members of the DMB feel an applicant isn't ready, it warrants deferral18:42
sabdflah, i didn't think a -1 counteracted a +118:42
maco(oh, that's also "unless they sent a vote by email ahead of time")18:42
cody-somerville(which is what counting -1s does)18:42
keesright, if -1 doesn't counteract +1, then it's really a 0.18:43
sabdflif a majority can bring up the confidence to +1, then that's sufficient for me18:43
cody-somervilleIn the current model, as described by myself and persia and agreed by the board in its first term, -1 'counteracts' a +1, yes.18:43
sabdfli think -1's are a "i want to talk about this", not a "i'm reducing the vote by 1"18:43
mdzit looks like the vote is not public, so I don't see an issue with there being the possibility of -1 votes18:43
macomdz: what do you mean not public?18:44
mdzas long as there is appropriate follow through with regard to the candidate, identifying the concerns and making a way forward18:44
mdzmaco, that mail says "internal mailing list"18:44
cody-somervillemdz,18:44
cody-somervillevotes are public18:44
gesermdz: the votes during the meeting are public, only the ones per mail are private18:44
mdzoh, sorry, i've misread18:44
macogeser: and even then, like with the last meeting, someone pipes up "oh, and Laney gave his +1 ahead of time"18:45
mdzisn't there a precedent for membership votes in other councils already?18:45
cody-somervillesabdfl, Since applicants are free to reapply immediately, I think the current models works as its effectively both "reducing the vote by 1" and "i want to talk about this".18:45
sabdflcody-somerville, no, it really isn't18:45
mdzis there a need for DMB to be different in this regard?18:45
Laneydidn't I vote on devel-permissions?18:46
macomdz: im not sure it's standardised across boards. im also not sure the Americas RMB has had a single split vote since i joined it, so not sure what it'd do...18:46
cody-somervillesabdfl, Although we're not doing the best job at it, we'd like to follow-up with the candidate and help them resolve the concerns.18:46
micahgLaney: you did indeed :)18:46
macoLaney: you did18:46
mdzI'd like to refer this decision to the CC, and have it apply to all membership councils18:46
gesermdz: do the other councils have a good description how votes count?18:46
sabdflcody-somerville, if you're saying "i want to talk about this", it's better to lay that out before folk vote, than -1 and hope that brings it under the threshold18:47
keesmdz: that seems like a good idea -- it strikes me that having different voting requirements is a bad idea :P18:47
Laneypersonally I think it should be as persia described, which is essentially that a majority is required18:47
sabdfl+1 to consistency18:47
Laneybut yes, let's standardise18:47
micahgmdz: I think the DMB is different than most councils in that the result is the ability to affect all users18:47
cody-somervillesabdfl, Its very easy to bring under threshold since when someone votes -1 there is bound to be a number of +0s18:47
cody-somervillesabdfl, people are sometimes hesitant to vote -1 and instead vote +0, IMHO18:48
mdzmicahg, true, but I don't think that warrants a different procedure for counting votes, tbh18:48
macoLaney: as persia described, you need a total of +4, after the -1s have subtracted away. with a 7 person board, a simple majority could be +4, -318:48
macobut that total is only +118:48
sabdflmicahg, i think any sphere of contribution can improve or be detrimental to all others18:49
geserbut in that case it's better for a application when the board only reaches quorum as the is a chance that the non-present members vote +1 in case the application doesn't reach threshold18:49
micahgsabdfl: indeed, but a bad blog post on the planet compared to a broken upload to the archive are a big difference18:49
cody-somervilleLaney, Thats not what persia described. What persia describes is that -2, +5 is enough to defer an application (which is what I think is controversial to some)18:49
sabdfli've sat on quite a few boards18:49
sabdfldissent is not a veto, for a reason18:49
Laneyyeah, sorry I wasn't clear18:50
geserif more members are present the more likely is a vote which can't be affected by the non-present members18:50
sabdfla proposal needs support of the majority, not consensus, and not majority-after-dissent18:50
sabdflthere's a reason for that, imo18:50
sabdflit's too easy to make blocking the default18:50
micahgmaco: you have your acceptance stats handy?18:50
sabdfli'm concerned that the DMB's who've been firm about -1's have been overly slow to recognise the benefits of taking some chances on fresh contributors18:50
sabdfljono mailed recently, and i thought he was correct, with that observation18:51
cody-somerville-1 is rather rare with the DMB18:51
keesseems like in the +1/-1 method, you'd want "above 0", but that's the same as "majority" in +1/0 method. Doing "majority" in the +1/-1 method would really raise the bar.18:51
cody-somerville+0 is probably the most common vote if not +118:51
cody-somervilleI see the necessity for the current model because +0 is so popular.18:51
cody-somervilleIf we no longer permit +0 without good reason, I'm fine to move to what sabdfl suggests.18:52
sabdflcody, that would block another way18:52
sabdfli'll say again: it should be enough to muster sufficient support18:52
sabdfllet's raise it with the CC and gather their views18:53
geserI vote -1 when I'm against the application at that time, +1 when I for it, and 0 when I'm not sure but don't want to block if other give their +118:53
keesseems like simple majority is the way to go. if everyone votes +0, then the board isn't very excited about the candidate18:53
macomicahg: http://people.ubuntu.com/~maco.m/dmb_record_keeping.html is the link I sent to u-d@l.u.c  A bit concerning how few volunteer members of the community have applied, but overall acceptance rate does seem pretty high to me.18:53
macogeser: ditto18:53
keesso, take to CC, then?18:54
Laneybut with +4 you /can/ block it18:54
micahgsabdfl: here are actual numbers with the current voting system on acceptance rate, it's pretty high ^^18:54
cody-somervilleIndeed. Thanks for that link maco.18:55
cody-somervilleI think it re-enforces with me that our current voting model works well.18:55
cody-somervilleand permits us to be conservative when warranted18:55
maco(87% acceptance rate)18:56
LaneyI don't think any of those three deferrals were unfair either.18:56
mdzkees, yes please18:56
keesmy opinion would be that simple yes/not-yet voting to get a majority of "yes" is sufficient, and that people that really feel negative need to shop their opinion around to convince others not to vote "yes".18:57
keesbut, since it sounds like this should go to CC, we'll defer it there.18:57
kees(also since we have 3 minutes left...)18:57
LaneySo if you want to vote -1 you need to be more forceful18:57
macokees: that sounds reasonable to me18:57
micahgwhat's the point of having a -1 available if it doesn't do anything?18:57
Laneywhich could end up with people being more negative than they would otherwise be18:58
keesmicahg: right, I recognize that -- but most voting systems are yes/no. it's kind of an accident that we started the convention of +1/-1 and that then resulted in "0" meaning abstain18:58
keesbut, yes, this needs to go the CC18:59
kees[ACTION] refer DMB voting to the CC (kees)18:59
MootBotACTION received:  refer DMB voting to the CC (kees)18:59
sabdflcan we wrap this point on that... thanks :)18:59
Laneymake clear that it's not just for the DMB please18:59
keesLaney: yeah, will do that18:59
kees[TOPIC] select chair19:00
MootBotNew Topic:  select chair19:00
keesKeybuk is alphabetically next, iiuc19:00
keesI'll email him19:00
kees[TOPIC] other stuff19:01
MootBotNew Topic:  other stuff19:01
mdznothing from me19:01
keeswe're out of time, but is there anything we should add to the agenda or quickly cover?19:01
keesokay, that's it then! thanks everyone!19:01
kees#endmeeting19:01
MootBotMeeting finished at 14:01.19:01
mdzthanks kees19:02
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