/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/07/31/#ubuntu-manual.txt

rickfosbc7p: didn't think you were going to make it17:56
* stillnotcool is out of breath17:56
stillnotcoolJust made it!17:56
c7phey all :)17:59
hannieHi everybody18:00
stillnotcoolHi hannie18:00
c7prickfosb: hopefully i did but i have to go in less than an hour18:00
godbyk-diracgreetings.18:00
rickfosbgreetings all18:00
stillnotcoolHi rickfosb18:00
CrustyBarnacleHowdy all.18:00
synergeticEvening :)18:01
synergetic(or other relevant time-of-day :P )18:01
rickfosbgodbyk-dirac: would you do the honors, when ready?18:02
godbyk-diracrickfosb: sure18:02
godbyk-dirac#start-meeting18:02
godbyk-dirac#startmeeting18:02
MootBotMeeting started at 13:02. The chair is godbyk-dirac.18:02
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]18:02
godbyk-dirac[TOPIC] Matty progress reports18:03
MootBotNew Topic:  Matty progress reports18:03
rickfosbThis one is mine:18:03
c7psry for this rick, agenda here: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/3WfNyRf9Lg18:04
godbyk-diracthanks, c7p.18:04
rickfosbFrom the spreadsheet, we have some fairly decent work going on.18:04
rickfosbHowever,  The section needing the most work is needing some help.18:04
hannierickfosb, I still have to update the spreadsheet concerning Prologue18:05
rickfosbI do have a lot of folks who have asked to help edit.. but few writers.18:05
rickfosbI will continue to reach out for folks who may be able to provide content18:05
rickfosbhannie:  thanks for that.18:05
CrustyBarnacleI can take on additional writing duties. :-)18:05
hannieany special subjects that need writers?18:06
rickfosbThe desktop section is needing some help18:06
rickfosbAssignment sheet is here:https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AtkeORuPIMxsdGtWRXlvdHB4bktTNkF5LTNwWU5KQnc&hl=en_US&authkey=CNDambUJ18:06
c7pi have free time these days if you need someone, just let me know.18:07
rickfosbThanks c7p,  I will link you in with the Ubuntu Desktop team18:07
c7poke18:07
rickfosbThere are other sections that are not showing as much work; but i think the emphasis of change was Desktop18:08
rickfosbCrustyBarnacle:  would you like to play in that sandbox as well?18:08
rickfosbhappy to have you!18:08
CrustyBarnacleAbsolutely :-)18:08
rickfosbGreat! look for my email later18:09
c7pIs there any finished chapter or close to that status ?18:09
hannieYes, Prologue and Learning more are finished18:09
* stillnotcool high-fives hannie18:10
rickfosbI think Trouble shooting is coming along as well18:10
c7pcool18:10
CrustyBarnacleTroubleshooting is close to finished.18:10
rickfosbAnd Advanced topics is well underway;18:11
hannieThat's great!18:11
rickfosbexcellant CrustyBarnacle18:11
rickfosb(if I could spell and type at the same time)18:11
godbyk-diracrickfosb: Do you think we have enough authors or should we try to recruit some more (fresh blood)?18:12
KartikTroubleshooting is almost improved.18:12
rickfosbHardware preferences, Working with Ubuntu, and Desktop are the three showing the least (or no) input on the work sheet.  And as I mentioned, I am most concerned about DT.18:13
rickfosbI have three 'editors' contacting at the moment,  I will see if they would like to help with content.  Fresh is always welcome18:13
rickfosbThanks Kartik!18:14
rickfosbI believe that sums up the current status.18:14
hannieAre we on schedule?18:14
CrustyBarnacleAnd, what is / would be our new schedule if we catch  up to Ubuntu release schedule?18:15
rickfosbOur milestone was that copy content was to be complete this week.  I have 3 important sections that are not complete. so, no,  we are currently behind the original milesontes18:15
c7pon schedule  content freeze is on 8/2018:16
rickfosbSeeing the item on the agenda; (11.10) I don't know what content would have to be altered for teh LTS18:16
rickfosbWithout getting ahead of the agenda, I tend to agree with tyring to get the manual 'in sync'18:16
stillnotcool(actually, I don't think 11.10 is an LTS?)18:17
hannieit isn't18:17
rickfosbsorry18:17
KartikTroubleshooting [Bugs] are continuously logged into spreadsheet and the list is increasing.18:17
stillnotcoolno problem ... just checking for my own knowledge18:17
rickfosbwhich release would that be18:17
stillnotcool12.04?18:18
stillnotcoolI think?18:19
c7pyes18:19
hannieLucid Lynx = 10.0418:19
stillnotcoolIt's not officially an LTS release, but it most likely will be18:19
c7pstillnotcool: actually it is18:20
rickfosbgodbyk: hannie:  what was the original thought on manual release?18:20
rickfosbc7p: ?18:20
stillnotcoolSo, I suppose we need to either accelerate our manual's release schedule (hasn't been our storng suit so far!) or "skip" an Ubuntu release to catch up.  Any other options?18:20
stillnotcoolc7p: Didn't know that official decision had been made. Very cool.18:20
KartikAre we in syn with the ubuntu versions?18:21
c7pstillnotcool: i checked it from here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PReleaseSchedule18:21
godbyk-diracrickfosb: Original thought on manual release?18:21
* godbyk-dirac is a bit slow today!18:21
stillnotcool...and from that page: "While no decision to make this release an LTS has been made, here are the Ubuntu LTS Release Details"18:21
c7pKartik: for now, we are one edition behind :)18:22
rickfosbyea, in the past, were we thinking of releasing a manual at every release, or just LTS?18:22
hannieevery release18:22
godbyk-diracrickfosb: Ah, every release.18:22
hannieBut translations every LTS18:22
stillnotcoolrickfosb: I think we've had that discussion once before, perhaps before you came on board as editor18:22
stillnotcool...and that was the consensus, yes :)18:22
godbyk-diracAt one point we had discussed doing it each LTS, but I think we concluded that too many things change between LTSs.18:23
c7phannie: +1, we voted on a previous meetind, and no we didn't cocluded that for translations18:23
hanniec7p, sorry, I was speaking for our translation team18:23
godbyk-diracTranslations occur whenever a translation team gets up the nerve to translate a release.18:24
rickfosbCool.  So we just need to catch up on the missing sections.18:24
c7phannie: ok :)18:24
hannieIf there is not going to be too much difference between Natty and Oneiric, the work for the next version will be much less18:25
c7pactually we have to talk a lot about how we will work for the coming releases, the coordination with the docs team etc but we are getting out of topic now18:25
rickfosbIf I were to try to keep up with the 'changes', is there a common location where siginificant changes are listed?  Seems like I saw something a year or so ago, but have lost track.18:26
stillnotcoolhannie: Looks like we'll have many changes to default programs (once again) between N and O, but large changes (like the inclusion of Unity) will be absent18:26
stillnotcoolrickfosb: Yes, it would be nice to have some kind of go-to master list of changes, something more easily digestible than release notes18:26
rickfosbMostly, I'm reading planet and watching for updates there18:27
rickfosbSo, to sum up on natty;  I'll link in a couple more of you for work on Desktop.  As others complete there sections, let me know and I'll find you a new home.18:28
c7pwe need some members of the team, to do that specific job, track the changes and new features of the upcoming releases18:28
c7pok let's go ahead18:28
godbyk-diracc7p: I think having folks on the look-out for new features and changes would be very helpful.18:29
hannierickfosb, if you need more help for the Desktop chapter, I am volunteering too18:29
stillnotcool+1 c7p18:29
rickfosbhannie: thank you!!!18:29
KartikWhy are we lacking behind latest ubuntu version?18:29
hannieKartik, good question!18:30
godbyk-diracKartik: We had a slow period during the maverick cycle and now we're playing catch-up.18:30
godbyk-diracAs for why we're lagging behind on our natty milestones, I'm not sure.18:30
KartikGuys we need to identify our issues and come up with a solution?18:30
CrustyBarnacleI think rickfosb already stated a need for writers/writing?18:31
stillnotcoolKartik: I think the easiest solution is, for now, to continue to work as quickly as possible.18:32
rickfosbAll:  Part of this is also my issue.  We've had a busy summer here and I've not been as attentive on a  daily basis as I would have liked.  I think I have the bulk of that behind us here18:32
hannierickfosb, do you think we can get back on track now that you have more writers available?18:32
Kartikwe should be involved seriously and require more volunteers,18:32
stillnotcoolrickfosb has outlined a very aggressive, but very achievable, schedule for Natty18:32
rickfosbhannie:  I believe that will help;  the desktop team was very responsive early on, then began to go 'dark'...18:33
c7pi don't rick can tell if we can catch up the schedule, this depends totally on us18:33
c7pso let's get do some hard work :)18:34
CrustyBarnacleSounds like we are all agreed to work a bit more in the next few weeks :-). Let's Roll!18:34
hannieyes, but just promises won't do18:34
c7phannie: sure18:34
c7prickfosb: what's the next item ?18:35
rickfosbI'll get a note out to the team members on the slow sections and add you guys in;  look for that today.18:35
godbyk-diracShall we move forward on the agenda?18:35
stillnotcool#action rickfosb to contact team members on slow sections and update team with their progress18:35
rickfosbyes sir18:35
godbyk-diracAre we down to the Commodore stuff now?18:35
rickfosbyes18:35
hannierickfosb, very good idea18:36
stillnotcoolthat was mine18:36
godbyk-dirac[TOPIC] Discuss Commodore USA outreach18:36
MootBotNew Topic:  Discuss Commodore USA outreach18:36
stillnotcoolSo yesterday I mailed our list, indicating that Commodore USA appears to be shipping our manual with their new machines18:36
stillnotcoolwhich I think is pretty sweet18:36
KartikLets us keep more volunteers so as in any situation, if something is wrong with Him/Her, then another will come into consideration, It's a 'Backup'!!!18:37
stillnotcoolgodbyk-dirac did some forensics and confirmed that the manual appears to be ours18:37
stillnotcoolHowever, it looks as though the folks at Commodore have scaled the manual in an odd way, such that it actually "cuts off" notes and marginalia18:38
godbyk-diracYeah. It's hard to tell for sure (at least in the video I've seen).18:39
c7pstillnotcool: they must altered it a bit, but still it seems to be our manual -they have the right to modify the book ;)-18:39
stillnotcooloh yes, completely their right18:39
hannieopen source18:39
godbyk-diracBut it looks like they *might* have cropped off the margin notes (and captions) and maybe moved the running heads (the title and page number at the top of each page) to run down the side of each page.18:39
stillnotcoolAh, okay18:39
godbyk-diracThey're certainly welcome to alter the book.18:39
stillnotcoolyes, absolutely18:40
stillnotcoolI have no problem with that18:40
godbyk-diracThe only concern I had was that if they wanted to have the PDF formatted for a different page size, I'd be happy to do that for them (so they could keep the captions and side notes).18:40
stillnotcoolgodbyk-dirac suggested we contact them to ask if we can provide a custom-formatted version of the manual18:40
Kartikrickfosb: Kindly let me know if you want us to work on other sections which are going slowly, we are always there to give our services.18:40
stillnotcooljust in case they didn't _want_ to cut those notes out of the book18:40
rickfosbKartik: thanks, will do.18:41
stillnotcoolbut were forced to because of the pdf sizes we chose18:41
hannieWho is going to contact Commodore?18:41
stillnotcoolIf the manual appears as they'd like it to, then that's fine18:41
godbyk-diracI'm happy to shoot them an email to see what they think.18:42
stillnotcoolbut if they would like to offer the manual with its original marginalia, then I think we should try to help them (if, of course, it is not too much for godbyk-dirac, our lead TeXtician)18:42
c7pcool18:42
c7p*our only beloved TEXician :P18:42
godbyk-diracIt's fairly easy to define new page sizes and layouts and probably wouldn't take me too much time.18:42
godbyk-diracWe'd just use the same content, of course.18:42
stillnotcoolOf course18:42
stillnotcoolAnd:18:43
stillnotcoolIf you watch other C64X videos, you'll note that CUSA is shipping both 10.10 discs and 11.04 dics with new machines18:43
stillnotcoolPerhaps, godbyk-dirac, you might also let them know that we are working on the Natty manual?18:43
godbyk-diracstillnotcool: Sure.18:43
stillnotcoolGive them a progress report, let them know we're open to collaboation?18:44
hannieAha, I just wanted to ask if Commodore is going to continue with other versions like Natty18:44
stillnotcoolAdmission: I am smitten with the C64 project, and want to partner if they're open to it18:44
stillnotcoolBut if others think this is a waste of time18:44
stillnotcoolI am happy to dorp the issue18:44
hanniestillnotcool, I just saw a picture of the new machine and it is really retro18:44
godbyk-dirac[ACTION] godbyk will contact Commodore USA to see if they'd like help reformatting our manual and are interested in a Natty edition when it's finished.18:44
MootBotACTION received:  godbyk will contact Commodore USA to see if they'd like help reformatting our manual and are interested in a Natty edition when it's finished.18:44
stillnotcoolTo me, though, it seems like a great opportunity to partner with a great upstart trying to ship machines with Ubuntu preinstalled18:45
rickfosb+1 stillnotcool18:45
stillnotcoolAnd since the work on our part would be fairly minimal (and I believe everything godbyk-dirac says, because, well, he's the man), I think it's a no-brainer18:46
issyl0rickfosb: Ping.18:46
issyl0rickfosb: Sorry, I lost track of time.18:46
godbyk-diracWe'll save the discussion of the Linux alternatives table for our next meeting as c7p has to leave soon.18:46
* issyl0 reads backscroll...18:46
rickfosb:)18:47
godbyk-dirac[TOPIC] Discuss switching focus from 11.04 to 11.1018:47
MootBotNew Topic:  Discuss switching focus from 11.04 to 11.1018:47
c7pwe had some thoughts to devote a page or more for linux alternative apps, so to help even more the newcomers18:47
godbyk-diracIt looks like JasonO brought up this topic.18:47
c7pthe table is her18:47
c7pe18:47
c7phttp://bit.ly/rjGMaz 18:47
MootBotLINK received:  http://bit.ly/rjGMaz 18:47
issyl0(And heh, yes, the Working with Ubuntu chapter needs [some] author[s]... (I'm editor of it, but don't really feel up to writing it, and haven't heard anything else from the author...))18:47
godbyk-diracDoes anyone have any thoughts on it?18:47
c7pi'm in charge to finish it and write it on book18:48
c7pwhere do you think this table should be placed ?18:48
rickfosbissyl10:  I'll add that to the help needed list18:48
stillnotcoolc7p: I think we might save this issue for another meeting? (see above)18:48
issyl0rickfosb: Thanks.18:49
c7pstillnotcool: ok not big deal18:49
godbyk-diracc7p: Do you have time to discuss it now or should we wait 'til the next meeting?18:49
c7pi have something more about the table18:49
c7pi have to know how i will write this information18:50
c7prepresent this info*18:50
c7pi think a paragraph for every app category is better than a simple table18:50
godbyk-diracc7p: I agree.  That would give you some space to discuss the alternatives a bit, too, in case there are important notes about them.18:51
godbyk-diracKnown incompatibilities, missing features, maturity levels, etc.18:51
c7psounds good :)18:51
c7pok thx18:51
hanniegodbyk, +118:52
stillnotcoolgodbyk-dirac: +118:52
stillnotcoolDo we know which chapter will house all c7p's hard work on that?18:53
godbyk-diracstillnotcool: I think we had discussed that at one point, but I don't recall the outcome.18:54
c7pstillnotcool: we will talk about it on the next meeting18:54
stillnotcoolgodbyk-dirac: You're right. But I forget, too. :)18:54
stillnotcoolc7p: Good deal!18:54
CrustyBarnacleWorking with Ubuntu?18:54
rickfosbLearning more?  Advanced Topics? or earlier in the book sounds nice18:54
godbyk-diracc7p: Okay. We'll add this to the next meeting's agenda to continue the discussion.18:54
godbyk-diracThanks, c7p.18:54
c7pnp, see you all. i have to go18:55
rickfosbNext meeting:  I will set up a poll. first selection two weeks out, if ok with you all.18:55
KartikYes.18:55
hanniebye c7p18:55
godbyk-dirac[TOPIC] Any other business18:55
MootBotNew Topic:  Any other business18:55
godbyk-diracIf there are any other issues that you'd like to discuss, now's the time.  Feel free to chime in.18:56
hannieI still want to know if translators can already start working on finished chapters18:56
godbyk-dirachannie: I think the translators should wait until the writing freeze for 11.04.18:56
godbyk-dirachannie: We haven't finished editing the chapters yet.18:56
* godbyk-dirac phone.. brb18:57
hanniegodbyk, but then we already have Oneiric18:57
CrustyBarnaclerickfosb: are we sticking to the current schedule? Was not clear to me.18:57
hanniegodbyk, but some chapters are finished and could already be translated18:58
rickfosbCrustyBarnacle: yes, for now. (looking up milestone)18:58
KartikYes, I would say that the instructions sheet requires some changes for new, Volunteers...18:59
godbyk-dirachannie: My fear is that our latex-to-pot converter may not play nicely, though.  If we create a .pot file and upload it to launchpad and let you translate a chapter and then we upload a new pot file later, you may have to reapprove the previous translations (or worse).19:00
hanniegodbyk-dirac, how about offline translations (.tex files)19:01
CrustyBarnaclerickfosb: Beginning on the next release (12.04) we work  on, can we rename the "style-guide" to "latex-primer" or such, so to avoid confusion with the Doc Team Style Guide?19:01
godbyk-dirachannie: You're suggesting we skip the .pot files and you just create a translated .tex file directly?   That's certainly possible.19:02
godbyk-diracCrustyBarnacle: There's a bunch more style-guide-like material that I'd like to add to the style guide. I just haven't taken the time to do it yet.19:02
hannieyes, that's the idea. I do want to try if it works for our team. But I need to know when chapters are really finished19:03
godbyk-diracCrustyBarnacle: But you're right in that, at the moment, it is much more of a LaTeX primer than a style guide.  (It started out as a LaTeX primer when I was training the authors and editors during our first edition.)19:03
rickfosbI defer to godbyk-dirac:  :-))19:03
CrustyBarnaclegodbyk-dirac: Any reason we can't just use the Doc Team Style Guide?19:03
godbyk-diracCrustyBarnacle: We do use it, but we have more material that we'll be adding that complements it.19:03
godbyk-diracWe also make use of the GNOME Documentation Style Guide.19:03
CrustyBarnaclegodbyk-dirac: OK.. got it, THanks!19:03
rickfosbhannie: would it help if we add a local 'freeze' line to a chapter when we think we are done done and done?19:04
godbyk-dirachannie: We'd just create a new branch for your translation and let you translate the .tex files themselves.  You'd have to pull in newly finished chapters from the main branch occasionally, but it should work just fine.19:04
hannierickfosb, It would help if I can see it in the spreadsheet as soon as a chapter is finished (like Learning more and Prologue)19:05
godbyk-diracCrustyBarnacle: Basically, our style guide takes precedence over the doc team and gnome docs style guides if there's a disagreement. but otherwise, we follow those two style guides.19:05
hanniegodbyk, that is also a really cool solution19:05
godbyk-dirachannie: I'm not sure if it'll be better or worse than the typical translation workflow we've been using.  You miss out on the translation tools, but given our track record there, that may be a good thing. ;-)19:06
hannieSo: 1) spreadsheet info when chapter is finished 2) new branch for finished chapters. That would be great!19:06
rickfosbhannie: OK, I'll look into getting that19:07
godbyk-dirachannie: Well, the new branch would be for your translation.19:07
hannieWe can certainly give it a try19:07
godbyk-diracAny other issues that anyone would like to bring up?19:08
rickfosbNext meeting: sooner rather than later?19:08
godbyk-diracrickfosb: When is our next milestone?19:09
rickfosb8 20 freeze19:09
stillnotcoolSounds good, rickfosb. Keeps us better in step with your calendar19:09
godbyk-diracrickfosb: Should we touch base sooner to check in on the progress of the authors/editors?  Or is that something you want to do privately?19:09
rickfosbless than a month and we will have to push the last three sections hard19:09
rickfosbI think sooner;  I can put up a poll for next weekend and the following and see what you guys can meet?19:10
godbyk-diracrickfosb: works for me.19:10
rickfosbI CAN meet during the week; but thats up to you guys19:10
hannieme too19:10
rickfosbdepends on time zones of course19:10
hannieweekends ok19:11
CrustyBarnaclerickfosb: Weekly status reports/updates from Editors? Use [LINK] http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org19:11
rickfosbI'll get a poll out today for next weekend and try to keep ahead of our next milestone19:11
godbyk-diracAny other topics?19:12
rickfosbCrsutyBarnacle: will do19:12
rickfosbnone here19:12
stillnotcoolnope19:12
hannieNo, there is work to do the coming week19:13
stillnotcoolhannie: indeed :)19:13
godbyk-diracAll right, then.  Meeting adjourned!19:13
godbyk-dirac#endmeeting19:13
MootBotMeeting finished at 14:13.19:13
stillnotcoolgotta run! bye, team!19:13
hanniebye, see you all nest time19:13
CrustyBarnacleBye, all...19:14
rickfosbbye19:15
c7pgodbyk-dirac: ping22:13

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