[17:56] <rickfosb> c7p: didn't think you were going to make it
[17:56]  * stillnotcool is out of breath
[17:56] <stillnotcool> Just made it!
[17:59] <c7p> hey all :)
[18:00] <hannie> Hi everybody
[18:00] <stillnotcool> Hi hannie
[18:00] <c7p> rickfosb: hopefully i did but i have to go in less than an hour
[18:00] <godbyk-dirac> greetings.
[18:00] <rickfosb> greetings all
[18:00] <stillnotcool> Hi rickfosb
[18:00] <CrustyBarnacle> Howdy all.
[18:01] <synergetic> Evening :)
[18:01] <synergetic> (or other relevant time-of-day :P )
[18:02] <rickfosb> godbyk-dirac: would you do the honors, when ready?
[18:02] <godbyk-dirac> rickfosb: sure
[18:02] <godbyk-dirac> #start-meeting
[18:02] <godbyk-dirac> #startmeeting
[18:02] <MootBot> Meeting started at 13:02. The chair is godbyk-dirac.
[18:02] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[18:03] <godbyk-dirac> [TOPIC] Matty progress reports
[18:03] <MootBot> New Topic:  Matty progress reports
[18:03] <rickfosb> This one is mine:
[18:04] <c7p> sry for this rick, agenda here: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/3WfNyRf9Lg
[18:04] <godbyk-dirac> thanks, c7p.
[18:04] <rickfosb> From the spreadsheet, we have some fairly decent work going on.
[18:04] <rickfosb> However,  The section needing the most work is needing some help.
[18:05] <hannie> rickfosb, I still have to update the spreadsheet concerning Prologue
[18:05] <rickfosb> I do have a lot of folks who have asked to help edit.. but few writers.
[18:05] <rickfosb> I will continue to reach out for folks who may be able to provide content
[18:05] <rickfosb> hannie:  thanks for that.
[18:05] <CrustyBarnacle> I can take on additional writing duties. :-)
[18:06] <hannie> any special subjects that need writers?
[18:06] <rickfosb> The desktop section is needing some help
[18:06] <rickfosb> Assignment sheet is here:https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AtkeORuPIMxsdGtWRXlvdHB4bktTNkF5LTNwWU5KQnc&hl=en_US&authkey=CNDambUJ
[18:07] <c7p> i have free time these days if you need someone, just let me know.
[18:07] <rickfosb> Thanks c7p,  I will link you in with the Ubuntu Desktop team
[18:07] <c7p> oke
[18:08] <rickfosb> There are other sections that are not showing as much work; but i think the emphasis of change was Desktop
[18:08] <rickfosb> CrustyBarnacle:  would you like to play in that sandbox as well?
[18:08] <rickfosb> happy to have you!
[18:08] <CrustyBarnacle> Absolutely :-)
[18:09] <rickfosb> Great! look for my email later
[18:09] <c7p> Is there any finished chapter or close to that status ?
[18:09] <hannie> Yes, Prologue and Learning more are finished
[18:10]  * stillnotcool high-fives hannie
[18:10] <rickfosb> I think Trouble shooting is coming along as well
[18:10] <c7p> cool
[18:10] <CrustyBarnacle> Troubleshooting is close to finished.
[18:11] <rickfosb> And Advanced topics is well underway;
[18:11] <hannie> That's great!
[18:11] <rickfosb> excellant CrustyBarnacle
[18:11] <rickfosb> (if I could spell and type at the same time)
[18:12] <godbyk-dirac> rickfosb: Do you think we have enough authors or should we try to recruit some more (fresh blood)?
[18:12] <Kartik> Troubleshooting is almost improved.
[18:13] <rickfosb> Hardware preferences, Working with Ubuntu, and Desktop are the three showing the least (or no) input on the work sheet.  And as I mentioned, I am most concerned about DT.
[18:13] <rickfosb> I have three 'editors' contacting at the moment,  I will see if they would like to help with content.  Fresh is always welcome
[18:14] <rickfosb> Thanks Kartik!
[18:14] <rickfosb> I believe that sums up the current status.
[18:14] <hannie> Are we on schedule?
[18:15] <CrustyBarnacle> And, what is / would be our new schedule if we catch  up to Ubuntu release schedule?
[18:15] <rickfosb> Our milestone was that copy content was to be complete this week.  I have 3 important sections that are not complete. so, no,  we are currently behind the original milesontes
[18:16] <c7p> on schedule  content freeze is on 8/20
[18:16] <rickfosb> Seeing the item on the agenda; (11.10) I don't know what content would have to be altered for teh LTS
[18:16] <rickfosb> Without getting ahead of the agenda, I tend to agree with tyring to get the manual 'in sync'
[18:17] <stillnotcool> (actually, I don't think 11.10 is an LTS?)
[18:17] <hannie> it isn't
[18:17] <rickfosb> sorry
[18:17] <Kartik> Troubleshooting [Bugs] are continuously logged into spreadsheet and the list is increasing.
[18:17] <stillnotcool> no problem ... just checking for my own knowledge
[18:17] <rickfosb> which release would that be
[18:18] <stillnotcool> 12.04?
[18:19] <stillnotcool> I think?
[18:19] <c7p> yes
[18:19] <hannie> Lucid Lynx = 10.04
[18:19] <stillnotcool> It's not officially an LTS release, but it most likely will be
[18:20] <c7p> stillnotcool: actually it is
[18:20] <rickfosb> godbyk: hannie:  what was the original thought on manual release?
[18:20] <rickfosb> c7p: ?
[18:20] <stillnotcool> So, I suppose we need to either accelerate our manual's release schedule (hasn't been our storng suit so far!) or "skip" an Ubuntu release to catch up.  Any other options?
[18:20] <stillnotcool> c7p: Didn't know that official decision had been made. Very cool.
[18:21] <Kartik> Are we in syn with the ubuntu versions?
[18:21] <c7p> stillnotcool: i checked it from here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PReleaseSchedule
[18:21] <godbyk-dirac> rickfosb: Original thought on manual release?
[18:21]  * godbyk-dirac is a bit slow today!
[18:21] <stillnotcool> ...and from that page: "While no decision to make this release an LTS has been made, here are the Ubuntu LTS Release Details"
[18:22] <c7p> Kartik: for now, we are one edition behind :)
[18:22] <rickfosb> yea, in the past, were we thinking of releasing a manual at every release, or just LTS?
[18:22] <hannie> every release
[18:22] <godbyk-dirac> rickfosb: Ah, every release.
[18:22] <hannie> But translations every LTS
[18:22] <stillnotcool> rickfosb: I think we've had that discussion once before, perhaps before you came on board as editor
[18:22] <stillnotcool> ...and that was the consensus, yes :)
[18:23] <godbyk-dirac> At one point we had discussed doing it each LTS, but I think we concluded that too many things change between LTSs.
[18:23] <c7p> hannie: +1, we voted on a previous meetind, and no we didn't cocluded that for translations
[18:23] <hannie> c7p, sorry, I was speaking for our translation team
[18:24] <godbyk-dirac> Translations occur whenever a translation team gets up the nerve to translate a release.
[18:24] <rickfosb> Cool.  So we just need to catch up on the missing sections.
[18:24] <c7p> hannie: ok :)
[18:25] <hannie> If there is not going to be too much difference between Natty and Oneiric, the work for the next version will be much less
[18:25] <c7p> actually we have to talk a lot about how we will work for the coming releases, the coordination with the docs team etc but we are getting out of topic now
[18:26] <rickfosb> If I were to try to keep up with the 'changes', is there a common location where siginificant changes are listed?  Seems like I saw something a year or so ago, but have lost track.
[18:26] <stillnotcool> hannie: Looks like we'll have many changes to default programs (once again) between N and O, but large changes (like the inclusion of Unity) will be absent
[18:26] <stillnotcool> rickfosb: Yes, it would be nice to have some kind of go-to master list of changes, something more easily digestible than release notes
[18:27] <rickfosb> Mostly, I'm reading planet and watching for updates there
[18:28] <rickfosb> So, to sum up on natty;  I'll link in a couple more of you for work on Desktop.  As others complete there sections, let me know and I'll find you a new home.
[18:28] <c7p> we need some members of the team, to do that specific job, track the changes and new features of the upcoming releases
[18:28] <c7p> ok let's go ahead
[18:29] <godbyk-dirac> c7p: I think having folks on the look-out for new features and changes would be very helpful.
[18:29] <hannie> rickfosb, if you need more help for the Desktop chapter, I am volunteering too
[18:29] <stillnotcool> +1 c7p
[18:29] <rickfosb> hannie: thank you!!!
[18:29] <Kartik> Why are we lacking behind latest ubuntu version?
[18:30] <hannie> Kartik, good question!
[18:30] <godbyk-dirac> Kartik: We had a slow period during the maverick cycle and now we're playing catch-up.
[18:30] <godbyk-dirac> As for why we're lagging behind on our natty milestones, I'm not sure.
[18:30] <Kartik> Guys we need to identify our issues and come up with a solution?
[18:31] <CrustyBarnacle> I think rickfosb already stated a need for writers/writing?
[18:32] <stillnotcool> Kartik: I think the easiest solution is, for now, to continue to work as quickly as possible.
[18:32] <rickfosb> All:  Part of this is also my issue.  We've had a busy summer here and I've not been as attentive on a  daily basis as I would have liked.  I think I have the bulk of that behind us here
[18:32] <hannie> rickfosb, do you think we can get back on track now that you have more writers available?
[18:32] <Kartik> we should be involved seriously and require more volunteers,
[18:32] <stillnotcool> rickfosb has outlined a very aggressive, but very achievable, schedule for Natty
[18:33] <rickfosb> hannie:  I believe that will help;  the desktop team was very responsive early on, then began to go 'dark'...
[18:33] <c7p> i don't rick can tell if we can catch up the schedule, this depends totally on us
[18:34] <c7p> so let's get do some hard work :)
[18:34] <CrustyBarnacle> Sounds like we are all agreed to work a bit more in the next few weeks :-). Let's Roll!
[18:34] <hannie> yes, but just promises won't do
[18:34] <c7p> hannie: sure
[18:35] <c7p> rickfosb: what's the next item ?
[18:35] <rickfosb> I'll get a note out to the team members on the slow sections and add you guys in;  look for that today.
[18:35] <godbyk-dirac> Shall we move forward on the agenda?
[18:35] <stillnotcool> #action rickfosb to contact team members on slow sections and update team with their progress
[18:35] <rickfosb> yes sir
[18:35] <godbyk-dirac> Are we down to the Commodore stuff now?
[18:35] <rickfosb> yes
[18:36] <hannie> rickfosb, very good idea
[18:36] <stillnotcool> that was mine
[18:36] <godbyk-dirac> [TOPIC] Discuss Commodore USA outreach
[18:36] <MootBot> New Topic:  Discuss Commodore USA outreach
[18:36] <stillnotcool> So yesterday I mailed our list, indicating that Commodore USA appears to be shipping our manual with their new machines
[18:36] <stillnotcool> which I think is pretty sweet
[18:37] <Kartik> Lets us keep more volunteers so as in any situation, if something is wrong with Him/Her, then another will come into consideration, It's a 'Backup'!!!
[18:37] <stillnotcool> godbyk-dirac did some forensics and confirmed that the manual appears to be ours
[18:38] <stillnotcool> However, it looks as though the folks at Commodore have scaled the manual in an odd way, such that it actually "cuts off" notes and marginalia
[18:39] <godbyk-dirac> Yeah. It's hard to tell for sure (at least in the video I've seen).
[18:39] <c7p> stillnotcool: they must altered it a bit, but still it seems to be our manual -they have the right to modify the book ;)-
[18:39] <stillnotcool> oh yes, completely their right
[18:39] <hannie> open source
[18:39] <godbyk-dirac> But it looks like they *might* have cropped off the margin notes (and captions) and maybe moved the running heads (the title and page number at the top of each page) to run down the side of each page.
[18:39] <stillnotcool> Ah, okay
[18:39] <godbyk-dirac> They're certainly welcome to alter the book.
[18:40] <stillnotcool> yes, absolutely
[18:40] <stillnotcool> I have no problem with that
[18:40] <godbyk-dirac> The only concern I had was that if they wanted to have the PDF formatted for a different page size, I'd be happy to do that for them (so they could keep the captions and side notes).
[18:40] <stillnotcool> godbyk-dirac suggested we contact them to ask if we can provide a custom-formatted version of the manual
[18:40] <Kartik> rickfosb: Kindly let me know if you want us to work on other sections which are going slowly, we are always there to give our services.
[18:40] <stillnotcool> just in case they didn't _want_ to cut those notes out of the book
[18:41] <rickfosb> Kartik: thanks, will do.
[18:41] <stillnotcool> but were forced to because of the pdf sizes we chose
[18:41] <hannie> Who is going to contact Commodore?
[18:41] <stillnotcool> If the manual appears as they'd like it to, then that's fine
[18:42] <godbyk-dirac> I'm happy to shoot them an email to see what they think.
[18:42] <stillnotcool> but if they would like to offer the manual with its original marginalia, then I think we should try to help them (if, of course, it is not too much for godbyk-dirac, our lead TeXtician)
[18:42] <c7p> cool
[18:42] <c7p> *our only beloved TEXician :P
[18:42] <godbyk-dirac> It's fairly easy to define new page sizes and layouts and probably wouldn't take me too much time.
[18:42] <godbyk-dirac> We'd just use the same content, of course.
[18:42] <stillnotcool> Of course
[18:43] <stillnotcool> And:
[18:43] <stillnotcool> If you watch other C64X videos, you'll note that CUSA is shipping both 10.10 discs and 11.04 dics with new machines
[18:43] <stillnotcool> Perhaps, godbyk-dirac, you might also let them know that we are working on the Natty manual?
[18:43] <godbyk-dirac> stillnotcool: Sure.
[18:44] <stillnotcool> Give them a progress report, let them know we're open to collaboation?
[18:44] <hannie> Aha, I just wanted to ask if Commodore is going to continue with other versions like Natty
[18:44] <stillnotcool> Admission: I am smitten with the C64 project, and want to partner if they're open to it
[18:44] <stillnotcool> But if others think this is a waste of time
[18:44] <stillnotcool> I am happy to dorp the issue
[18:44] <hannie> stillnotcool, I just saw a picture of the new machine and it is really retro
[18:44] <godbyk-dirac> [ACTION] godbyk will contact Commodore USA to see if they'd like help reformatting our manual and are interested in a Natty edition when it's finished.
[18:44] <MootBot> ACTION received:  godbyk will contact Commodore USA to see if they'd like help reformatting our manual and are interested in a Natty edition when it's finished.
[18:45] <stillnotcool> To me, though, it seems like a great opportunity to partner with a great upstart trying to ship machines with Ubuntu preinstalled
[18:45] <rickfosb> +1 stillnotcool
[18:46] <stillnotcool> And since the work on our part would be fairly minimal (and I believe everything godbyk-dirac says, because, well, he's the man), I think it's a no-brainer
[18:46] <issyl0> rickfosb: Ping.
[18:46] <issyl0> rickfosb: Sorry, I lost track of time.
[18:46] <godbyk-dirac> We'll save the discussion of the Linux alternatives table for our next meeting as c7p has to leave soon.
[18:46]  * issyl0 reads backscroll...
[18:47] <rickfosb> :)
[18:47] <godbyk-dirac> [TOPIC] Discuss switching focus from 11.04 to 11.10
[18:47] <MootBot> New Topic:  Discuss switching focus from 11.04 to 11.10
[18:47] <c7p> we had some thoughts to devote a page or more for linux alternative apps, so to help even more the newcomers
[18:47] <godbyk-dirac> It looks like JasonO brought up this topic.
[18:47] <c7p> the table is her
[18:47] <c7p> e
[18:47] <c7p> http://bit.ly/rjGMaz 
[18:47] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://bit.ly/rjGMaz 
[18:47] <issyl0> (And heh, yes, the Working with Ubuntu chapter needs [some] author[s]... (I'm editor of it, but don't really feel up to writing it, and haven't heard anything else from the author...))
[18:47] <godbyk-dirac> Does anyone have any thoughts on it?
[18:48] <c7p> i'm in charge to finish it and write it on book
[18:48] <c7p> where do you think this table should be placed ?
[18:48] <rickfosb> issyl10:  I'll add that to the help needed list
[18:48] <stillnotcool> c7p: I think we might save this issue for another meeting? (see above)
[18:49] <issyl0> rickfosb: Thanks.
[18:49] <c7p> stillnotcool: ok not big deal
[18:49] <godbyk-dirac> c7p: Do you have time to discuss it now or should we wait 'til the next meeting?
[18:49] <c7p> i have something more about the table
[18:50] <c7p> i have to know how i will write this information
[18:50] <c7p> represent this info*
[18:50] <c7p> i think a paragraph for every app category is better than a simple table
[18:51] <godbyk-dirac> c7p: I agree.  That would give you some space to discuss the alternatives a bit, too, in case there are important notes about them.
[18:51] <godbyk-dirac> Known incompatibilities, missing features, maturity levels, etc.
[18:51] <c7p> sounds good :)
[18:51] <c7p> ok thx
[18:52] <hannie> godbyk, +1
[18:52] <stillnotcool> godbyk-dirac: +1
[18:53] <stillnotcool> Do we know which chapter will house all c7p's hard work on that?
[18:54] <godbyk-dirac> stillnotcool: I think we had discussed that at one point, but I don't recall the outcome.
[18:54] <c7p> stillnotcool: we will talk about it on the next meeting
[18:54] <stillnotcool> godbyk-dirac: You're right. But I forget, too. :)
[18:54] <stillnotcool> c7p: Good deal!
[18:54] <CrustyBarnacle> Working with Ubuntu?
[18:54] <rickfosb> Learning more?  Advanced Topics? or earlier in the book sounds nice
[18:54] <godbyk-dirac> c7p: Okay. We'll add this to the next meeting's agenda to continue the discussion.
[18:54] <godbyk-dirac> Thanks, c7p.
[18:55] <c7p> np, see you all. i have to go
[18:55] <rickfosb> Next meeting:  I will set up a poll. first selection two weeks out, if ok with you all.
[18:55] <Kartik> Yes.
[18:55] <hannie> bye c7p
[18:55] <godbyk-dirac> [TOPIC] Any other business
[18:55] <MootBot> New Topic:  Any other business
[18:56] <godbyk-dirac> If there are any other issues that you'd like to discuss, now's the time.  Feel free to chime in.
[18:56] <hannie> I still want to know if translators can already start working on finished chapters
[18:56] <godbyk-dirac> hannie: I think the translators should wait until the writing freeze for 11.04.
[18:56] <godbyk-dirac> hannie: We haven't finished editing the chapters yet.
[18:57]  * godbyk-dirac phone.. brb
[18:57] <hannie> godbyk, but then we already have Oneiric
[18:57] <CrustyBarnacle> rickfosb: are we sticking to the current schedule? Was not clear to me.
[18:58] <hannie> godbyk, but some chapters are finished and could already be translated
[18:58] <rickfosb> CrustyBarnacle: yes, for now. (looking up milestone)
[18:59] <Kartik> Yes, I would say that the instructions sheet requires some changes for new, Volunteers...
[19:00] <godbyk-dirac> hannie: My fear is that our latex-to-pot converter may not play nicely, though.  If we create a .pot file and upload it to launchpad and let you translate a chapter and then we upload a new pot file later, you may have to reapprove the previous translations (or worse).
[19:01] <hannie> godbyk-dirac, how about offline translations (.tex files)
[19:01] <CrustyBarnacle> rickfosb: Beginning on the next release (12.04) we work  on, can we rename the "style-guide" to "latex-primer" or such, so to avoid confusion with the Doc Team Style Guide?
[19:02] <godbyk-dirac> hannie: You're suggesting we skip the .pot files and you just create a translated .tex file directly?   That's certainly possible.
[19:02] <godbyk-dirac> CrustyBarnacle: There's a bunch more style-guide-like material that I'd like to add to the style guide. I just haven't taken the time to do it yet.
[19:03] <hannie> yes, that's the idea. I do want to try if it works for our team. But I need to know when chapters are really finished
[19:03] <godbyk-dirac> CrustyBarnacle: But you're right in that, at the moment, it is much more of a LaTeX primer than a style guide.  (It started out as a LaTeX primer when I was training the authors and editors during our first edition.)
[19:03] <rickfosb> I defer to godbyk-dirac:  :-))
[19:03] <CrustyBarnacle> godbyk-dirac: Any reason we can't just use the Doc Team Style Guide?
[19:03] <godbyk-dirac> CrustyBarnacle: We do use it, but we have more material that we'll be adding that complements it.
[19:03] <godbyk-dirac> We also make use of the GNOME Documentation Style Guide.
[19:03] <CrustyBarnacle> godbyk-dirac: OK.. got it, THanks!
[19:04] <rickfosb> hannie: would it help if we add a local 'freeze' line to a chapter when we think we are done done and done?
[19:04] <godbyk-dirac> hannie: We'd just create a new branch for your translation and let you translate the .tex files themselves.  You'd have to pull in newly finished chapters from the main branch occasionally, but it should work just fine.
[19:05] <hannie> rickfosb, It would help if I can see it in the spreadsheet as soon as a chapter is finished (like Learning more and Prologue)
[19:05] <godbyk-dirac> CrustyBarnacle: Basically, our style guide takes precedence over the doc team and gnome docs style guides if there's a disagreement. but otherwise, we follow those two style guides.
[19:05] <hannie> godbyk, that is also a really cool solution
[19:06] <godbyk-dirac> hannie: I'm not sure if it'll be better or worse than the typical translation workflow we've been using.  You miss out on the translation tools, but given our track record there, that may be a good thing. ;-)
[19:06] <hannie> So: 1) spreadsheet info when chapter is finished 2) new branch for finished chapters. That would be great!
[19:07] <rickfosb> hannie: OK, I'll look into getting that
[19:07] <godbyk-dirac> hannie: Well, the new branch would be for your translation.
[19:07] <hannie> We can certainly give it a try
[19:08] <godbyk-dirac> Any other issues that anyone would like to bring up?
[19:08] <rickfosb> Next meeting: sooner rather than later?
[19:09] <godbyk-dirac> rickfosb: When is our next milestone?
[19:09] <rickfosb> 8 20 freeze
[19:09] <stillnotcool> Sounds good, rickfosb. Keeps us better in step with your calendar
[19:09] <godbyk-dirac> rickfosb: Should we touch base sooner to check in on the progress of the authors/editors?  Or is that something you want to do privately?
[19:09] <rickfosb> less than a month and we will have to push the last three sections hard
[19:10] <rickfosb> I think sooner;  I can put up a poll for next weekend and the following and see what you guys can meet?
[19:10] <godbyk-dirac> rickfosb: works for me.
[19:10] <rickfosb> I CAN meet during the week; but thats up to you guys
[19:10] <hannie> me too
[19:10] <rickfosb> depends on time zones of course
[19:11] <hannie> weekends ok
[19:11] <CrustyBarnacle> rickfosb: Weekly status reports/updates from Editors? Use [LINK] http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org
[19:11] <rickfosb> I'll get a poll out today for next weekend and try to keep ahead of our next milestone
[19:12] <godbyk-dirac> Any other topics?
[19:12] <rickfosb> CrsutyBarnacle: will do
[19:12] <rickfosb> none here
[19:12] <stillnotcool> nope
[19:13] <hannie> No, there is work to do the coming week
[19:13] <stillnotcool> hannie: indeed :)
[19:13] <godbyk-dirac> All right, then.  Meeting adjourned!
[19:13] <godbyk-dirac> #endmeeting
[19:13] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 14:13.
[19:13] <stillnotcool> gotta run! bye, team!
[19:13] <hannie> bye, see you all nest time
[19:14] <CrustyBarnacle> Bye, all...
[19:15] <rickfosb> bye
[22:13] <c7p> godbyk-dirac: ping