[15:59] <apw> o/
[15:59] <zul> hilo
[15:59] <jamespage> o/
[15:59] <zul> who is running the meeting today?
[16:00] <smb> \o
[16:01] <smb> apw, Are yo usure? :)
[16:01] <zul> pleasenotmepleasenotmepleasenotme
[16:01] <apw> o\
[16:02] <zul> i guess its me
[16:02] <jamespage> utlemming did it last week so I think its hallyn
[16:02] <zul> #startmeeting
[16:02] <MootBot> Meeting started at 11:02. The chair is zul.
[16:02] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[16:02] <zul> he'll owe me
[16:03] <zul> [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting
[16:03] <MootBot> New Topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting
[16:03] <zul>     [ACTION] sommer and j1mc to look at doc presentation (continued x 2)
[16:03] <zul> was that done?
[16:03] <zul> i guess not carried forward
[16:03] <SpamapS> no
[16:03] <SpamapS> no don't carry it
[16:03] <SpamapS> sommer has stepped down.. and its been continued x 2
[16:03] <zul> ok not carried forward
[16:03] <SpamapS> somebody else needs to take that action
[16:04] <zul> anyone want to volunteer?
[16:04] <zul> we really need a tech writer i think
[16:04] <SpamapS> I think the action may be to put out a call for help w/ documentation.
[16:04] <robbiew> I wonder if kim0 could help
[16:04] <zul> SpamapS: want to do it? the call for help
[16:05] <SpamapS> Yeah I'll do it
[16:05] <robbiew> I'm blocked on a contractor, atm
[16:05] <zul> [ACTION] Spamaps call for help for documentation
[16:05] <MootBot> ACTION received:  Spamaps call for help for documentation
[16:05] <zul> ok next is:
[16:05] <zul> [ACTION] All: review new triage process at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/KnowledgeBase
[16:05] <MootBot> ACTION received:  All: review new triage process at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/KnowledgeBase
[16:05] <zul> i need to do it still
[16:05] <zul> anyone else read it?
[16:06] <zul> if not it will be carried forward
[16:06] <SpamapS> Yes I've been using it
[16:06] <zul> ok good SpamapS gets a cookie ;)
[16:06] <hallyn> i've been trying to use it :)
[16:06] <zul> and hallyn gets a biscuit
[16:06] <zul> so moving on:
[16:06] <hallyn> scooby snack!
[16:07] <zul> [TOPIC] Oneiric Development
[16:07] <MootBot> New Topic:  Oneiric Development
[16:07] <zul> well the archive is in a soft freeze and its pretty close to FFE
[16:07] <zul> s/FFE/FF/g
[16:07] <zul> anyone else want to mention anything
[16:07] <zul> robbiew: ?
[16:07] <hallyn> hm, i'd like to merge new libvirt still before ff
[16:07] <robbiew> update work items!!!!
[16:08] <smb> zul, xen seems still to be in depwait for ipxe
[16:08] <zul> again?!
[16:08] <hallyn> why?  ipxe is packaged yes?
[16:08] <zul> ill look at it today
[16:08] <zul> it needs to be seeded
[16:08] <smb> Or at least I did not see anyting built yet
[16:08] <zul> ill take a look
[16:08] <SpamapS> http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/canonical-server-oneiric-alpha-3.html
[16:08] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/canonical-server-oneiric-alpha-3.html
[16:08] <SpamapS> looking pretty bad
[16:08] <smb> hyperair, ipxe was in universe still
[16:08] <smb> errr
[16:09] <smb> hallyn,
[16:09] <smb> xen moved to main, so not getting built until ipxe is in main too
[16:09] <zul> oh yeah i got a pandaboard booting on oneiric
[16:09] <zul> anything else?
[16:10] <zul> ok moviing on..
[16:10] <zul> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Server Team Events
[16:10] <MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu Server Team Events
[16:11] <zul> so next week the ubuntu server team and friends will be sprinting in two different places austin and london and the week after is linuxcon
[16:11] <zul> anyone has any events they want to bring up?
[16:11] <zul> if not we will move on
[16:12]  * SpamapS is done eventing for a while. :)
[16:12] <zul> heh
[16:12] <zul> ok so next
[16:12] <zul> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh/apw)
[16:12] <MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh/apw)
[16:13] <zul> we already mentioned the new triaging instructions is there anything else you want to mention
[16:13] <zul> if not ill move on to the next topic
[16:14] <zul> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
[16:14] <MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
[16:14] <robbiew> zul: Ursinha is at QA sprint same week as LinuxCon
[16:14] <zul> hi smb
[16:14] <smb> Currently trying to debug the oneiric kernel not booting on xen hvm
[16:14] <Ursinha> yes, I am
[16:14] <Ursinha> OEM QA and Defect Analysts sprint
[16:15]  * smb wonders how apw made it into the qa team
[16:16] <zul> smb: whats the xen hvm problem?
[16:16] <smb> Anyway, I can reproduce it but the traces I got so far indicate that something between the 3.0 kernel and dom0 interacts badly. So I am trying to bisect where it started to go bad
[16:16] <smb> zul, It hangs on boot
[16:16] <zul> smb: oh...well that sucks
[16:16] <smb> Only the 2.6.39+ kernels
[16:17] <zul> did it work with 4.1?
[16:17] <zul> but we can tlak about it outside the meeting
[16:17] <smb> zul, It does not hang at the same place, but that seems to be moving
[16:17] <zul> crappers...ill talk to you about it after
[16:17] <smb> k
[16:17] <zul> anything else?
[16:18] <smb> not from me
[16:18] <zul> any questions?
[16:18] <zul> ...
[16:18] <zul> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (NCommander)
[16:18] <MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (NCommander)
[16:18] <zul> hi NCommander
[16:18] <NCommander> so our preinstall pool code landed which allows our server images to be fullyinstalledwithoutnetworkon omap4
[16:18] <NCommander> andmy spacebar is having issues
[16:19] <zul> what does that mean?
[16:19] <NCommander> so basically,we're now properly shipping all the debs needed for server installs
[16:19] <NCommander> the previous set of server images required an internet connection to complete installation
[16:19] <zul> oh...good
[16:19] <robbiew> yeah...very goof
[16:19] <robbiew> good
[16:20] <robbiew> lol
[16:20] <zul> anything else?
[16:20] <NCommander> Our netboot images are also almost fully working, and can currently be used unattended with some minor cavets
[16:20] <NCommander> I'm running the release as part of the release team so I'll be less available for ARM related work this week
[16:20] <zul> good now we can just get cobbler to work with it
[16:20] <NCommander> yup
[16:21] <NCommander> that's all
[16:21] <zul> any other questions for Ncommander?
[16:21] <zul> if not
[16:21] <zul> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions from the Ubuntu Community
[16:21] <MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions from the Ubuntu Community
[16:22] <zul> anyone want to bring something up?
[16:22] <zul> if not im starving :)
[16:22] <SpamapS> one tiny thing
[16:23] <SpamapS> err.. never mind
[16:23] <SpamapS> ;)
[16:23] <zul> ok...
[16:23] <zul> [TOPIC] Open Discussion
[16:23] <MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion
[16:24] <zul> last chance...
[16:24] <Ursinha> o/
[16:24] <Ursinha> all of our reports are being placed where they should be: http://status.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server/
[16:25] <Ursinha> sru reports are being updated every 20minutes and triage reports every 10 minutes
[16:25] <Daviey> \o/
[16:25] <zul> sweet
[16:25] <Ursinha> also, I have some graphs for appreciation
[16:25] <Ursinha> http://status.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server/ubuntu-server-bugs-oneiric.html
[16:25] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://status.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server/ubuntu-server-bugs-oneiric.html
[16:25] <Ursinha> I'm working on them thou
[16:25] <zul> thanks!
[16:25] <Ursinha> if you want specific data, let me know
[16:25] <Ursinha> :)
[16:26] <zul> anyone else?
[16:26] <Ursinha> ..
[16:26] <zul> thanks
[16:26] <zul> #endmeeting
[16:26] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:26.
[16:34] <dlm_> nick/dlm
[16:59] <bjf> #
[16:59] <bjf> # lets "get 'er done"!
[16:59] <bjf> #
[16:59] <jjohansen> \o
[16:59] <sconklin> \o/
[16:59] <apw> o/
[16:59] <kamal> o/
[17:00] <bjf> #startmeeting
[17:00] <MootBot> Meeting started at 12:00. The chair is bjf.
[17:00] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[17:00] <bjf> ##
[17:00] <bjf> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
[17:00] <bjf> ##
[17:00] <bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
[17:00] <bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Oneiric
[17:00] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
[17:00] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Oneiric
[17:00] <bjf> # Meeting Etiquette
[17:00] <bjf> #
[17:00] <bjf> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
[17:00] <bjf> #       'o/' indicates you have something you'd like to add (wait until you are recognized)
[17:00] <bjf> #
[17:00] <bjf> [TOPIC] ARM Status (ppisati)
[17:00] <MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Status (ppisati)
[17:00] <ogasawara> he's on vacation no?
[17:00] <bjf> ci
[17:01] <ogasawara> heh
[17:01] <bjf> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (ogasawara)
[17:01] <MootBot> New Topic:  Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (ogasawara)
[17:01] <ogasawara> [17:01] <ogasawara> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kt-meeting.txt
[17:01] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kt-meeting.txt
[17:01] <ogasawara> [17:01] <ogasawara>  * 29 linux kernel bugs (up 9)
[17:01] <ogasawara> [17:01] <ogasawara>  * 2 linux kernel bugs (up 2)
[17:01] <ogasawara> [17:01] <ogasawara>  * 0 oneiric linux kernel bugs (no change 0)
[17:01] <ogasawara>  * 21 natty linux kernel bugs (down 1)
[17:01] <ogasawara>  * 3 maverick linux kernel bugs (no change 0)
[17:01] <ogasawara>  * 7 lucid linux kernel bugs (no change 0)
[17:01] <ogasawara>  * 0 hardy linux kernel bugs (no change 0)
[17:01] <ogasawara> [17:01] <ogasawara>  * 75 oneiric bugs (up 10)
[17:01] <ogasawara>  * 1466 natty bugs (up 41)
[17:01] <ogasawara>  * 1089 maverick bugs (down 3)
[17:01] <ogasawara>  * 933 lucid bugs (up 6)
[17:01] <ogasawara>  * 32 hardy bugs (no change 0)
[17:01] <ogasawara> [17:01] <ogasawara> [17:01] <ogasawara>  * 0 oneiric bugs (no change 0)
[17:01] <ogasawara>  * 12 natty bugs (no change 0)
[17:01] <ogasawara>  * 41 maverick bugs (no change 0)
[17:01] <ogasawara>  * 74 lucid bugs (no change 0)
[17:01] <ogasawara>  * 0 hardy bugs (no change 0)
[17:01] <ogasawara> [17:01] <ogasawara>  * 1 oneiric bugs (no change 0)
[17:01] <ogasawara>  * 438 natty bugs (down 2)
[17:02] <ogasawara>  * 241 maverick bugs (down 1)
[17:02] <ogasawara>  * 211 lucid bugs (up 3)
[17:02] <ogasawara>  * 2 hardy bugs (no change 0)
[17:02] <ogasawara> [17:02] <ogasawara>  * 0 oneiric bugs (no change 0)
[17:02] <ogasawara>  * 1 natty bugs (down 1)
[17:02] <ogasawara>  * 1 maverick bugs (no change 0)
[17:02] <ogasawara>  * 0 lucid bugs (no change 0)
[17:02] <ogasawara>  * 0 hardy bugs (no change 0)
[17:02] <ogasawara> ..
[17:02] <bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Oneiric Delta Review (ogasawara)
[17:02] <bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-kernel-o-ubuntu-delta-review
[17:02] <MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Oneiric Delta Review (ogasawara)
[17:02] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-kernel-o-ubuntu-delta-review
[17:02] <ogasawara> ==other-kernel-o-ubuntu-delta-review (ogasawara)==
[17:02] <ogasawara> lag, rsalveti: you have work items to review your set of Ubuntu patches.  See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Specs/KernelOneiricUbuntuDeltaReview .  Note, these are the only remaining work items for this blueprint.
[17:02] <ogasawara> ..
[17:02] <bjf> [TOPIC] Status: General Oneiric (ogasawara)
[17:02] <MootBot> New Topic:  Status: General Oneiric (ogasawara)
[17:02] <ogasawara> Last week we uploaded the 3.0.0-7.9 Ubuntu kernel.  I do not anticipate any last minute uploads and expect this to be the kernel shipping with the Oneiric Alpha-3 release on Thurs.  We're already queueing patches for the first upload following Alpha-3.
[17:02] <ogasawara> ..
[17:03] <bjf> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's (apw)
[17:03] <MootBot> New Topic:  Status: CVE's (apw)
[17:03] <apw> [17:03] <apw> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~apw/cve/pkg/CVE-linux.txt
[17:03] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~apw/cve/pkg/CVE-linux.txt
[17:03] <apw> Currently open CVEs for each supported branch:
[17:03] <apw> || Package                                  || Open ||
[17:03] <apw> ||                                          ||      ||
[17:03] <apw> || linux Hardy                              ||    7 ||
[17:03] <apw> || linux Lucid                              ||    4 ||
[17:03] <apw> || linux Maverick                           ||    4 ||
[17:03] <apw> || linux Natty                              ||    5 ||
[17:03] <apw> || linux Oneiric                            ||    2 ||
[17:03] <apw> || linux-ec2 Lucid                          ||    4 ||
[17:03] <apw> || linux-fsl-imx51 Lucid                    ||    4 ||
[17:03] <apw> || linux-mvl-dove Lucid                     ||    4 ||
[17:03] <apw> || linux-mvl-dove Maverick                  ||    4 ||
[17:03] <apw> || linux-ti-omap4 Maverick                  ||    4 ||
[17:03] <apw> || linux-ti-omap4 Natty                     ||    5 ||
[17:03] <apw> || linux-ti-omap4 Oneiric                   ||    2 ||
[17:03] <apw> || linux-lts-backport-maverick Lucid        ||    4 ||
[17:03] <apw> || linux-lts-backport-natty Lucid           ||    5 ||
[17:03] <apw> ..
[17:03] <bjf> [TOPIC] Status: Stable Kernel Team (sconklin)
[17:03] <MootBot> New Topic:  Status: Stable Kernel Team (sconklin)
[17:03] <sconklin> ||== Status of kernels ==
[17:03] <sconklin> ||
[17:03] <sconklin> || Kernel status for each series is as follows:
[17:03] <sconklin> ||
[17:03] <sconklin> || * [[http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/sru-report.html|Detailed Information Here]]
[17:04] <sconklin> ||
[17:04] <sconklin> ||[17:04] <sconklin> || * [[https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/812360|Hardy Tracking Bug]]
[17:04] <sconklin> || * Awaiting regression testign by QA
[17:04] <sconklin> ||
[17:04] <sconklin> ||[17:04] <sconklin> || * [[https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/818196|Lucid Tracking Bug]]
[17:04] <sconklin> || * Awaiting certifcation and regression testing
[17:04] <sconklin> ||
[17:04] <sconklin> ||[17:04] <sconklin> || * [[https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/808934|Maverick Tracking Bug]]
[17:04] <sconklin> || * Awaiting publishing
[17:04] <sconklin> ||
[17:04] <sconklin> ||[17:04] <sconklin> || * [[https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/818175|Natty Tracking Bug]]
[17:04] <sconklin> || * Awaiting regression testing
[17:04] <sconklin> ||
[17:04] <sconklin> ..
[17:04] <bjf> [TOPIC] Security & bugfix kernels - Natty/Maverick/Lucid/Hardy (sconklin)
[17:04] <MootBot> New Topic:  Security & bugfix kernels - Natty/Maverick/Lucid/Hardy (sconklin)
[17:04] <sconklin> ||
[17:04] <sconklin> || Current Kernel versions are always available here: http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/versions.html
[17:04] <sconklin> ||
[17:04] <sconklin> ..
[17:04] <bjf> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions: Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
[17:04] <MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion or Questions: Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
[17:04] <bdmurray> o/
[17:05] <bjf> bdmurray, go
[17:05] <bdmurray> Just wanted to remind you all about the kerneloops work I've done and take a peak at the reported oopses
[17:05] <bdmurray> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.searchtext=&orderby=-datecreated&search=Search&field.status%3Alist=NEW&field.status%3Alist=INCOMPLETE_WITH_RESPONSE&field.status%3Alist=INCOMPLETE_WITHOUT_RESPONSE&field.status%3Alist=CONFIRMED&field.status%3Alist=TRIAGED&field.status%3Alist=INPROGRESS&field.status%3Alist=FIXCOMMITTED&assignee_option=any&field.assignee=&field.bug_reporter=&field.bug_supervisor=&field.bug_commenter=&fi
[17:06] <bdmurray> so kernel warnings are no longer reported and the bugs get tagged kernel-driver- like bug 818161 which is tagged kernel-driver-i915
[17:07] <bdmurray> it seems to me like there could get an importance set automatically
[17:07] <bdmurray> additionally there seem to be some duplicates with the NETDEV WATCHDOG timeouts
[17:07] <bdmurray> are the watchdogs useful? and should they be autotagged using the (atl1c) information?
[17:08] <bdmurray> ..
[17:08] <apw> bdmurray, sounds interesting, perhaps you could write up some pointers and email them out, as i suspect this will be a long topic
[17:08] <apw> (to the kernel-team@ list)
[17:08] <apw> those tags look useful so far on quick reading
[17:08] <apw> ..
[17:09] <bjf> bdmurray, are these separate scripts or is this part of apport?
[17:09] <bdmurray> bjf the driver tagging is part of the linux source package hook (which is in apport)
[17:10] <bdmurray> bjf: the filtering out of WARNINGs is done in kerneloops itself
[17:10] <bjf> bdmurray, thanks
[17:11] <bjf> thanks everyone
[17:11] <bjf> #endmeeting
[17:11] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:11.
[17:11] <kamal> thanks bjf
[17:46] <nigelb> [6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~32
[17:46] <nigelb> 64
[17:48] <nigelb> gah
[17:48] <nigelb> sorry!
[17:49] <charlie-tca> so, that wasn't code?
[17:50] <nigelb> that was my attempts at closing my terminal with Shift + enter + ~
[19:18] <czajkowski> ogra_: reminder meeting in 40 mins
[19:35] <highvoltage> EMEA RMB meeing in ~25 minutes
[19:43] <czajkowski> stgraber meeting in ~20 mins
[19:55] <drubin> meeting in ~6mins
[20:01]  * stgraber waves
[20:01] <iulian> 'lo.
[20:02] <czajkowski> stgraber: hwdy
[20:03] <Andy80> hi all
[20:03] <drubin> oo we have a peoples
[20:03] <Trevinho> Hi
[20:03] <highvoltage> o/
[20:03] <Pali> hello
[20:04] <czajkowski> stgraber: can you chair ?
[20:05] <stgraber> czajkowski: I'd rather not as I'm multi-tasking between ISO testing, fixing stuff and talking to people IRL
[20:05] <stgraber> (sorry, it's alpha-3 + pre-FF rush)
[20:06] <czajkowski> ok
[20:06] <Trevinho> Yeh, we know!
[20:06] <czajkowski> #startmeeting
[20:06] <MootBot> Meeting started at 15:06. The chair is czajkowski.
[20:06] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[20:06] <czajkowski> Aloha and welcome to todays EMEA meeting
[20:06] <czajkowski> stgraber: highvoltage drubin ogra_ are we all here
[20:06]  * drubin 
[20:07]  * highvoltage is here
[20:07] <czajkowski> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/EMEA
[20:07] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/EMEA
[20:07] <czajkowski> is tonights agenda
[20:07] <czajkowski> so we'll work from the top down
[20:08] <czajkowski> is lcawte here?
[20:08] <czajkowski> ok moving on so
[20:08] <czajkowski> laoshi: you're up next
[20:08] <laoshi>  o/
[20:08] <czajkowski> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FlemmingChristensen
[20:08] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FlemmingChristensen
[20:09] <czajkowski> laoshi: hi so care to tell us about yourself
[20:09] <iulian> laoshi: Could you please tell us a bit about yourself?
[20:09] <laoshi> ok
[20:10] <laoshi> as said on wiki I am moderator of the Danish Team Forum
[20:10] <laoshi> translator
[20:10] <laoshi> writer og tips and tricks
[20:10] <laoshi> and working on a mentoring activity in Danish team
[20:11] <laoshi> and have kept up propagating Ubuntu for the last 3 years
[20:11] <laoshi> but please ask any questions
[20:12] <laoshi> oh, and also LoCo contact for some 4 months
[20:12] <highvoltage> laoshi: if you could change any one thing in ubuntu, what would that be?
[20:12] <iulian> laoshi: What is your role within the Danish LoCo team?
[20:13] <laoshi> great question! the one about change
[20:13] <laoshi> it is going really fast since ab. 8.04, and we dont get many seriously troubling questions on forum
[20:14] <laoshi> in the LoCo team I am also a member of the local council
[20:14] <laoshi> and try to get news both ways
[20:14] <laoshi> but as I have only been in that function for some 4 months I am still finding my way
[20:15] <laoshi> I try to keep the LoCo alive!
[20:15] <czajkowski> laoshi: the danish team have had their issues, how do you go about getting people involved in the team
[20:16] <laoshi> we try to develop personal relationships through irc, mail, forum, and IRL (especially in Aarhus and Cph)
[20:16] <laoshi> and in the projects on mentoring and using lernid we reach wider out
[20:17] <czajkowski> laoshi: ok is there anything else you'd like to add ?
[20:17] <laoshi> about membership I I see it as a kind of recognition of work already done. And taking on an obligation to keep up working to spread Ubuntu.
[20:18] <laoshi> so it would be both an honour and an obligation
[20:18] <czajkowski> highvoltage: drubin iulian stgraber anything else
[20:18] <highvoltage> nope
[20:18] <iulian> No.
[20:18] <czajkowski> [vote] please vote on the membership of laoshi.
[20:18] <stgraber> nope
[20:18] <MootBot> Please vote on:  please vote on the membership of laoshi..
[20:18] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[20:18] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[20:18] <iulian> +0
[20:18] <MootBot> Abstention received from iulian. 0 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 0
[20:18] <highvoltage> +1 [ long-term forum / loco team work ]
[20:18] <MootBot> +1 received from highvoltage. 1 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 1
[20:19] <MootBot> Private +1 vote received. 2 for, 0 against, 1 have abstained. Count is now 2
[20:19] <stgraber> +0
[20:19] <MootBot> Abstention received from stgraber. 2 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 2
[20:19] <czajkowski> +0
[20:19] <MootBot> Abstention received from czajkowski. 2 for, 0 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now 2
[20:19] <highvoltage> (private votes won't be recorded)
[20:19] <czajkowski> highvoltage: why not ?
[20:19] <highvoltage> czajkowski: do we know who made the private vote?
[20:19] <iulian> czajkowski: Can we actually see who voted?
[20:19] <czajkowski> no
[20:19] <drubin> +0 [Lack of documented activities]
[20:19] <MootBot> Abstention received from drubin. 2 for, 0 against. 4 have abstained. Count is now 2
[20:20] <czajkowski> but this has never come up before in other meetings
[20:20] <czajkowski> can who ever voted in pm please pm me
[20:20] <highvoltage> czajkowski: so if we don't know who voted, then it can't count since only RMB board members are allowed to vote
[20:20] <czajkowski> ASAP
[20:20] <stgraber> czajkowski: so how do you know it's an EMEA member and not just some random people in the channel?
[20:20] <czajkowski> highvoltahuok we dont have this issue
[20:20] <czajkowski> hence I'm asking
[20:20] <czajkowski> can who ever voted in pm please pm me ASAP
[20:21] <czajkowski> ok
[20:21] <czajkowski> nobody
[20:21] <czajkowski> great
[20:21] <czajkowski> :/
[20:21] <highvoltage> czajkowski: I don't think there's time to do that all the time in meetings, the private votes should just be ignored imho
[20:21] <drubin> stupid copy paste mistake
[20:21]  * iulian nods.
[20:21] <drubin> mine is a +1
[20:21] <drubin> +1
[20:21] <czajkowski> highvoltage: bring that up another time :)
[20:21] <czajkowski> right ok it was a non member
[20:21] <drubin> czajkowski: please add antoerh +1
[20:22] <czajkowski> please for the sake of my sanity and this meeting can it only be Members on the board please.
[20:22] <czajkowski> #endvote
[20:22] <czajkowski> [endvote]
[20:22] <MootBot> Final result is 2 for, 0 against. 4 abstained. Total: 2
[20:22] <czajkowski> ok at this stage I'm afraid laoshi you were unsuccessful
[20:23] <laoshi> ok, sorry, but I'll be back at a later time
[20:23] <czajkowski> Pali: ping
[20:23] <Pali> pong
[20:23] <czajkowski> Pali: you're up next
[20:23] <czajkowski> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/pali
[20:23] <Pali> ok
[20:23] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/pali
[20:24] <drubin> henninge: get ready you are up after :)
[20:24] <henninge> ok
[20:24] <czajkowski> Pali: ok tell us about yourself please
[20:24] <Pali> ok
[20:25] <highvoltage> Pali: wasn't there a legal dispute recently where Blizard entertainment wanted to stop Strattagus development?
[20:26] <Pali> No, Blizzard did not stop Stratagus development
[20:26] <Pali> problem was that main developer moved from Stratagus to Boswars
[20:27] <czajkowski> Pali: what Ubuntu work are you involved in, I see you work on lots of other packages and projects
[20:27] <highvoltage> Pali: have you perhaps conisdered going the developers route to get membership? considering that most of your work might probably be better suited under the MOTU umbrella?
[20:27] <Pali> Last I send series of patches for plymouth
[20:28] <Pali> and I'm maintainer of Kopete skype plugin (in kopete upstream)
[20:29]  * iulian agrees with highvoltage on that.
[20:29] <czajkowski> Pali: I think I agree with highvoltage have you looked at the route of MOTU
[20:29] <czajkowski> I don't see any Ubuntu work here for me to look at
[20:29] <czajkowski> sorry
[20:29] <highvoltage> Pali: it's great work that you're doing and have planned, but your wiki page is a bit sparse on the details. I would suggest that you continue with the work as you planned and apply for Ubuntu contributing developer (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers#ContribDev) instead
[20:29] <Pali> ok
[20:29] <ScottK> highvoltage: Most of it's upstream work though.
[20:30] <highvoltage> ScottK: ah
[20:30] <ScottK> I'm afraid, based on the recent email thread, they'd bounce him back here.
[20:30] <czajkowski> ScottK: not really isn't the time to bring up that thread tbh
[20:30] <drubin> Pali: How do you see your self contributing to the ubuntu comunity specifically?
[20:30] <czajkowski> Pali: your wiki page is lacking in any testimonials ? is there anyone who can vouch for you ?
[20:30] <ScottK> czajkowski: So if I think you are giving poor advice, I should just stay quiet?
[20:31] <Pali> I think no
[20:31] <czajkowski> ScottK: could you pm highvoltage please
[20:31] <highvoltage> Pali: in that case, I would still recommend the Ubuntu developers route for the work you do on kopete and related packages
[20:31] <Pali> ok
[20:32] <czajkowski> [vote] please vote on Pali membership. Only board members only please and please vote publically.
[20:32] <MootBot> Please vote on:  please vote on Pali membership. Only board members only please and please vote publically..
[20:32] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[20:32] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[20:32] <highvoltage> +0
[20:32] <MootBot> Abstention received from highvoltage. 0 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 0
[20:32] <drubin> +0
[20:32] <MootBot> Abstention received from drubin. 0 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 0
[20:32] <iulian> +0
[20:32] <MootBot> Abstention received from iulian. 0 for, 0 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now 0
[20:32] <czajkowski> +0
[20:32] <MootBot> Abstention received from czajkowski. 0 for, 0 against. 4 have abstained. Count is now 0
[20:32] <czajkowski> stgraber: ?
[20:32] <stgraber> +0
[20:32] <MootBot> Abstention received from stgraber. 0 for, 0 against. 5 have abstained. Count is now 0
[20:33] <czajkowski> [endvote]
[20:33] <MootBot> Final result is 0 for, 0 against. 5 abstained. Total: 0
[20:33] <czajkowski> Pali: I'd suggest talking to highvoltage after the meeting
[20:33] <ScottK> czajkowski: Trying to PM the same information to multiple people involved in a conversation is silly.  Enjoy your meeting.
[20:33] <czajkowski> henninge: you're up next
[20:33] <henninge> Hi!
[20:33] <czajkowski> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HenningEggers
[20:33] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HenningEggers
[20:35] <iulian> henninge: Can you please introduce yourself?
[20:35] <czajkowski> henninge: so how long have you been working for CAnonical and in the LP team ?
[20:36] <henninge> I have been working on the LP team since September 2008.
[20:36] <highvoltage> henninge: you're very active on Launchpad upstream (which is great), but do you have any Ubuntu specific work you're doing?
[20:36] <czajkowski> henninge: I ask as you don't have any testimonals really from LP folks, you only have 2 there on your wiki page, does your team or manager know you are going for membership ?
[20:37] <henninge> czajkowski: no he doesn't, I was not aware he should.
[20:37] <henninge> I always considred Launchpad work Ubuntu work.
[20:37] <iulian> Not really...
[20:38] <highvoltage> henninge: it's not necessary, but getting feedback from people you have worked with is usually helpful
[20:38] <henninge> That is true.
[20:38] <highvoltage> (imho feedback from your manager on the launchpad project isn't really directly relevant unless it has something to do with your Ubuntu contributions)
[20:38] <henninge> that would make sense
[20:39] <czajkowski> highvoltage: no but was really looking for more than 2 testimonails at least one from a member of LP
[20:39] <henninge> I have represented Ubuntu at confernces and run UDW session.
[20:39] <iulian> I honestly don't see what Launchpad has to do with Ubuntu in this case.
[20:40] <henninge> I have also done some translations work but admittedly have not been very active as a translator lately.
[20:40] <henninge> iulian: are you serious?
[20:40] <henninge> Without Launchpad, Ubuntu would not happen.
[20:40] <henninge> No translations, no package archives, no bug tracking.
[20:41] <highvoltage> I think it's great that you co-hosted a session at Ubuntu Developer Week and for the Application Developer Week
[20:41] <henninge> Sure, these things could be done with other tools but as it stands now they are done with Launchpad.
[20:41] <drubin> henninge: how are you invovled with ubuntu out side of work?
[20:42] <highvoltage> henninge: In terms of Ubuntu membership, I think we view Launchpad as an upstream project the same way we view Firefox, LibreOffice or Unity
[20:42] <henninge> Not too much currently, apart from promoting it with my acquaintances whenever I can.
[20:42] <czajkowski> henninge: is there anything else you wish to add before we vote ?
[20:42] <henninge> highvoltage: so work on Launchpad (employed or not) would not count as Ubuntu work?
[20:42] <henninge> Interesting.
[20:43] <highvoltage> henninge: I don't believe that there is explicit policy on it, but you have to keep in mind that we're more interested in the work you do within the Ubuntu project
[20:43] <henninge> highvoltage: I understand
[20:43] <highvoltage> henninge: the short, oversimplified answer... yes
[20:43] <henninge> czajkowski: just one thing
[20:43] <czajkowski> henninge: shoot
[20:44] <drubin> Trevinho: please get ready, we need to speed things up
[20:44] <henninge> I will be leaving Canonical in September and want to stay connected to Ubuntu. I will use and promote the use of Ubuntu in my next work and see a membership as a good starting point.
[20:44] <henninge> just wanted to be open about that
[20:44] <czajkowski> henninge: ok thanks
[20:44] <henninge> vote ;-)
[20:44] <czajkowski> henninge: you are already using the @ubuntu.com address..
[20:45] <czajkowski> [vote] please vote on the membership of henninge. Board members only please, please vote publically also.
[20:45] <MootBot> Please vote on:  please vote on the membership of henninge. Board members only please, please vote publically also..
[20:45] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[20:45] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[20:45] <highvoltage> henninge: you're definitely ubuntu membership material, I think you just have to add a few things to your existing list of contributions and apply again in the future
[20:45] <henninge> czajkowski: employees get it
[20:45] <highvoltage> +0
[20:45] <MootBot> Abstention received from highvoltage. 0 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 0
[20:45] <drubin> +0
[20:45] <MootBot> Abstention received from drubin. 0 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 0
[20:45] <czajkowski> henninge: I've talked to jcastro about this....
[20:45] <czajkowski> +0
[20:45] <MootBot> Abstention received from czajkowski. 0 for, 0 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now 0
[20:45] <iulian> +0
[20:45] <MootBot> Abstention received from iulian. 0 for, 0 against. 4 have abstained. Count is now 0
[20:45] <czajkowski> stgraber: ??
[20:45] <stgraber> +0
[20:45] <MootBot> Abstention received from stgraber. 0 for, 0 against. 5 have abstained. Count is now 0
[20:46] <czajkowski> [endvote]
[20:46] <MootBot> Final result is 0 for, 0 against. 5 abstained. Total: 0
[20:46] <jcastro> I don't get why launchpad work doesn't count?
[20:46] <henninge> jcastro: I don't either.
[20:46] <czajkowski> Trevinho: you're up next
[20:46] <skaet> launchpad is key to putting ubuntu together....
[20:46] <drubin> we can discuss this after we have voted.
[20:46] <czajkowski> jcastro: it does, however it really would have been nice to see LP testimonials on his wiki page
[20:46] <Trevinho> czajkowski: here I am
[20:47] <jcastro> ok
[20:47] <czajkowski> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Trevi%C3%B1o
[20:47] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Trevi%C3%B1o
[20:47] <henninge> czajkowski: I deliberately asked people outside my team ...
[20:47] <highvoltage> jcastro: it's an upstream project, like firefox or openoffice. I don't think it should count any less or more than that, but if it should be different, then I'd like to get your inputs on it and why
[20:47] <jcastro> highvoltage: ok I'd like to discuss that after the vote
[20:47] <highvoltage> jcastro: ok great
[20:48] <czajkowski> folks can we please concentrate on current application
[20:48] <drubin> Andy80: please get ready
[20:48] <Andy80> yep
[20:48] <czajkowski> sorry to be a stickler but time is not on our side
[20:48] <Trevinho> Should I introduce myself?
[20:48] <drubin> Trevinho: Yes
[20:48] <Trevinho> ok
[20:48] <czajkowski> Trevinho: can you tell is about your work in Ubuntu and how you are getting on please
[20:48] <Trevinho> I'm an Italian Computer Science student and lover of the free software
[20:48] <Trevinho> In the past times I've contributed or worked in many projects from Compiz to Openmoko, passing over Enlightenment and Vala. In the past I contributed as external packager with my repositories providing mostly compiz and other packages not available in the official repositories.
[20:49] <Trevinho> Pushing upstream patches and other things I put in my personal work
[20:49] <Trevinho> Since january I'm mostly involved in the unity development
[20:49] <Trevinho> working both on indicators, BAMF, and the unityshell itself
[20:50] <czajkowski> Trevinho: the italian loco is extremely active, are you involved in it at all ?
[20:50] <Trevinho> I've mostly proveided bug reports, patches and features.
[20:50] <Trevinho> czajkowski: I know that, however I follow it externally
[20:50] <Trevinho> also if during the UDS I've met people from the loco
[20:51] <czajkowski> Trevinho: so would you think being invovled in your loco would help others get involve in Ubuntu ?
[20:51]  * highvoltage has no questions
[20:52] <Trevinho> So they introduced me to the ubuntu-it-dev
[20:52]  * drubin has no questions
[20:52]  * iulian is ready to vote.
[20:52]  * stgraber too
[20:52] <czajkowski> [vote] please vote on Trevinho membership. Board members only, please vote publically.
[20:52] <MootBot> Please vote on:  please vote on Trevinho membership. Board members only, please vote publically..
[20:52] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[20:52] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[20:52] <highvoltage> +1 [ italian translation work and unity bug fixes ]
[20:52] <MootBot> +1 received from highvoltage. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[20:52] <czajkowski> +q
[20:52] <czajkowski> +1
[20:52] <MootBot> +1 received from czajkowski. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[20:53] <iulian> +1 - Great work, keep it up!
[20:53] <MootBot> +1 received from iulian. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[20:53] <drubin> +1 [Visible comunity effort even if it was devlopment]
[20:53] <MootBot> +1 received from drubin. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
[20:53] <stgraber> +1
[20:53] <MootBot> +1 received from stgraber. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
[20:53] <czajkowski> [endvote]
[20:53] <MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 5
[20:53] <czajkowski> Trevinho: welcome aboard
[20:53] <iulian> Trevinho: Congratulations.
[20:53] <Trevinho> Thank you
[20:53] <czajkowski> Andy80: you're up next
[20:53] <Andy80> ok
[20:53] <czajkowski> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AndreaGrandi
[20:53] <highvoltage> Trevinho: congratulations and welcome
[20:53] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AndreaGrandi
[20:54] <Andy80> My name is Andrea Grandi, I'm an italian student of Computer Science in Firenze and software developer. I use Ubuntu since its first version and in general I'm a Linux user since 1996.
[20:54] <Trevinho> Thank you all
[20:54] <drubin> congrants
[20:54] <Andy80> I'm the president of Pistoia Linux User Group, a local (Pistoia, Italy) Linux group. After attending UDS-O I started contributing to Unity-2D fixing some bugs and currently doing a research in  automated testing for QML UIs.
[20:54] <highvoltage> Andy80: what's the biggest challenges you face with helping your city mirating from proprietary to free software?
[20:55] <Andy80> my contribution are listed on the wiki, but feel free to ask me any question, please
[20:55] <Andy80> highvoltage: basically they don't trust "free" things
[20:55] <Andy80> they say: why should it work if it's free?
[20:56] <Andy80> it's a hard job to show them that it works pretty well :)
[20:56] <Andy80> but I can say that I'm quite satisfied... I mean...
[20:56] <Andy80> I've contributed to the installation of Ubuntu in a couple of schools (high schools) here in Pistoia
[20:57] <Andy80> in 3 different companies and with my LUG we're helping the local "public administration" to migrate to free software
[20:57] <czajkowski> Andy80: are you involved in the ubuntu-it loco ?
[20:57] <Andy80> we're also working to another project (always using Ubuntu) but it's not strictly related to Ubuntu
[20:57] <highvoltage> Andy80: I notice on https://launchpad.net/~andreagrandi/+related-software that you haven't made many unity-2d related uploads yet. How do you submit your patches? Via bzr or something?
[20:57] <Andy80> czajkowski: no I'm not, even if I follow them (blogs, forum ecc...)
[20:58] <highvoltage> Andy80: and do you have further plans to become involved with Unity upstream or eventually become a per package uploader for unity-2d?
[20:58] <Andy80> highvoltage: yeah, I submite them using bzr... only 2 patches have been merged for the moment
[20:58] <Andy80> I'm working on a 3rd one
[20:58] <czajkowski> ok folks any more questions, or Andy80 have you anything else to say ?
[20:59]  * stgraber is ready to vote
[20:59] <Andy80> highvoltage: my contribute will be mainly on Unity-2D since my knowledges are Qt/C++
[20:59] <stgraber> highvoltage: IIRC unity/unity-2d are done through an upstream release + batch upload of compiz, nux and all the unity packages because of the current dependency/api mess :)
[20:59] <czajkowski> [vote] please vote on Andy80 membership. Board members only, public votes please.
[20:59] <MootBot> Please vote on:  please vote on Andy80 membership. Board members only, public votes please..
[20:59] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[20:59] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[21:00] <czajkowski> +1
[21:00] <MootBot> +1 received from czajkowski. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[21:00] <drubin> +0
[21:00] <MootBot> Abstention received from drubin. 1 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 1
[21:00] <highvoltage> +1 [ I'm actuallly thinking more of a +0.50001, but I tend to round up - good general community work ]
[21:00] <MootBot> +1 received from highvoltage. 2 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2
[21:01] <iulian> +0
[21:01] <MootBot> Abstention received from iulian. 2 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 2
[21:01] <stgraber> +1
[21:01] <MootBot> +1 received from stgraber. 3 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 3
[21:01] <czajkowski> [endvote]
[21:01] <MootBot> Final result is 3 for, 0 against. 2 abstained. Total: 3
[21:01] <czajkowski> Unfortunately at this time Andy80 you haven't been successful
[21:01] <czajkowski> there are 7 people on the board and we need a min of 4 +1 to pass
[21:02] <czajkowski> Andy80: please keep up the work, and maybe even look at working with ubuntu-it  as well
[21:02] <highvoltage> Andy80: keep up the good work though and please apply again in a few months. be sure to document your work on your wiki page
[21:02] <Andy80> why all people didn't vote then?
[21:02] <czajkowski> Andy80: we have 5 people here out of the 7 which is enough to have the meeting
[21:02] <czajkowski> drubin: you're writing up the notes of the meeting
[21:03] <czajkowski> next meeting someone else is to chair :)
[21:03] <Andy80> well... thanks anyway..
[21:03] <czajkowski> #endmeeting
[21:03] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 16:03.
[21:03] <drubin> czajkowski: yes, and I will email them out now
[21:03] <czajkowski> drubin: grand thanks
[21:03] <czajkowski> stgraber: highvoltage iulian till next month
[21:03] <czajkowski> thanks
[21:03] <highvoltage> we sometimes have a CC meeting followint the EMEA board meeting, is that the case today?
[21:03] <pleia2> highvoltage: trying to see if we have quorum (doubtful, nothing on the agenda)
[21:04] <drubin> czajkowski: see you too :)
[21:04] <highvoltage> pleia2: I'm wondering whether there should be policy on upstream contributions counting towards membership
[21:04] <pleia2> highvoltage: it's always been something that's considered, but you need ubuntu-specific involvement too
[21:04] <highvoltage> ie, if someone only contributes to Launchpad or Unity, for example, should that be any different than someone contributing only to the Linux kernel or to Gnome upstream?
[21:05] <skaet> highvoltage,  the translation work for ubuntu that henninge has been doing is a key part of the infrastructure of delivering it.
[21:05] <highvoltage> pleia2: *nod*, that's how we're currently voting. I believe skaet and jcastro may have some other inputs on that
[21:05] <pleia2> highvoltage: I think it depends on how much their work touches the ubuntu community, we've got launchpad folks who don't interact with ubuntu and gnome devs who do
[21:05] <jcastro> because if we take away mozilla ubuntu can still exist, launchpad .... ?
[21:06]  * highvoltage can build an ubuntu cd without launchpad though
[21:06] <skaet> plieia2,  on henninge's page he's been doing a fair bit of community related ubuntu work, for a sustained time as well.
[21:06] <highvoltage> it's certainly important, but in the end launchpad itself is a upstream project on its own
[21:06] <highvoltage> and it's not part of the ubuntu project
[21:07] <highvoltage> (and I'm not making this stuff up, it's just how it is)
[21:07] <pleia2> launchpad certainly is a tricky example
[21:07] <jcastro> is it the same for bzr too?
[21:07] <pleia2> reading some of the backlog now
[21:07] <jcastro> also, so let me make sure I get this right. If you're doing pure Unity work that doesn't count as ubuntu work?
[21:08] <highvoltage> jcastro: the way we currently vote, yes
[21:08] <Andy80> guys, no offence, nothing personal... but I don't think I will apply again.... all this procedure only demotivated me. I'll keep contributing Unity-2D just because I like writing Qt/C++ code and I really like to work with people like Ugo or Florian, but belive me... you've really demotivated me. Thanks anyway for your time and patience.
[21:08] <highvoltage> jcastro: I'm sure it will count for something, but if it's only upstream work, how can we count it as work in the ubuntu project?
[21:08] <highvoltage> jcastro: at least, why should we count it anymore than someone who has done pure gnome upstream work or pure kde upstream work?
[21:09] <jcastro> highvoltage: I don't claim to know the answer, I just want to know what the policy is
[21:09] <pleia2> Andy80: yikes, sorry to hear that! it does sound like you're close though, I hope you change your mind
[21:10] <highvoltage> jcastro: ok. currently the policy is to grant membership when someone has shown sustained and significant contributions within the ubuntu project
[21:10] <pleia2> highvoltage, jcastro, this is a complicated issue, perhaps it can formally be added to the CC agenda? (I'm the only one here right now, and not at all prepared for tihs)
[21:10] <jcastro> highvoltage: right, I'm just having a hard time understanding how people who enable people to contribute to ubuntu (launchpad), and the people who make our default desktop that ships with ubuntu and has a homepage of unity.ubuntu.com isn't contributing to ubuntu
[21:10] <highvoltage> jcastro: if someone is an upstream developer to the linux kernel or gnome, for exmample, but have never done any ubuntu work, then we won't grant ubuntu membership
[21:11] <pleia2> jcastro: we don't automatically make all DDs Ubuntu Members, and that's most of the Ubuntu archive
[21:11] <highvoltage> pleia2: indeed.
[21:11] <jcastro> highvoltage: but you don't find gnome on gnome.ubuntu.com, it's a clear, separate project, ditto the kernel.
[21:11] <jcastro> same with debian, a clear project with it's own goals
[21:11] <czajkowski> skaet: the issue with henninge page also was it didn't show at least me his work with his collegues, yes I can see he has dholbach and dpm down as testimonials, but nobody from LP is a bit odd
[21:12] <highvoltage> jcastro: I agree that the lines are more blurred with unity and launchpad
[21:12] <highvoltage> jcastro: however, it's possible for someone to contribute just to the upstream projects and never be a part of the ubuntu project
[21:12] <highvoltage> (same goes for bzr)
[21:12] <jcastro> right I get that, "I wrote some mp3 player make me an ubuntu member" kind of thing
[21:12] <jcastro> I just am unclear about lp and unity
[21:12] <jcastro> I mean, unity is hosted on ubuntu.com
[21:13] <jcastro> same for ensemble, etc.
[21:13] <czajkowski> Andy80: sorry you feel that way, you only need 1 more vote, and not everyone gets membership on the 1st go also.
[21:13] <highvoltage> jcastro: so is upstart. so if a debian contributor submits lots of patches to upstart, should we make him an ubuntu member?
[21:14] <Andy80> czajkowski: this was the second time I was rejected.... no problem, really... I'll just forgive all this and keep developing, don't worry...
[21:14] <jcastro> ok, well, I guess this is a CC issue then or something
[21:14] <pleia2> seems like a clarification as to what is an "Ubuntu project" and what is upstream needs to be made
[21:14] <ScottK> jcastro: I can't imagine why LP work would possibly count for Ubuntu membership.
[21:14] <jcastro> what's the next step?
[21:14] <highvoltage> jcastro: or if a fedora contributer submits patches to bzr and unity to make it run it better in fedora, would you like to give them membership too?
[21:14] <pleia2> jcastro: add to the CC agenda for our meeting in 2 weeks
[21:14] <Igorots> interesting discussion here
[21:14] <pleia2> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
[21:14] <jcastro> highvoltage: it's not really that black and white
[21:14]  * ScottK wonders where people think that non-Ubuntu Canonical stuff should be counted as Ubuntu.
[21:14] <jcastro> clearly the 2 unity contributors who applied today have made /ubuntu/ better
[21:14] <ScottK> jcastro: Kernel developers make Ubuntu better too.
[21:15] <jcastro> I can't really argue hypothetical "what if someone makes it good in fedora would you make them members?"
[21:15] <pleia2> an email to the CC Cc:ing ubuntu-membership-boards@lists.ubuntu.com would also be useful
[21:15] <czajkowski> thought I am beginging to feel each board is being watched now by canonical to see how board members vote and pick them apart when staff don't get membership tbh, given tonights comments from staff
[21:15] <skaet> ScottK,  getting the translation infrastructure working and solid is key for Ubuntu being used by local teams.
[21:15] <jcastro> ScottK: awesome, and when a kernel developer wants to apply to be a member you should look at their contributions
[21:15] <charlie-tca> czajkowski: +1
[21:15] <jcastro> I just don't get how it's so black and white
[21:16] <ScottK> skaet: It's infrastructure though.  It's not part of Ubuntu.
[21:16] <highvoltage> jcastro: basically, it comes down to sustained and significant contributions withing the ubuntu project. upstream work is great but it's not enough alone.
[21:16] <czajkowski> charlie-tca: and I for one don't like it, at the end of the day the CC elect this board and others to best judge and now our judgements are being called upon one by one. don't think it's very nice tbh
[21:16] <AlanBell> jcastro: skaet: I think there might be an opportunity to make sure that employees are better prepared before going for membership
[21:16] <highvoltage> jcastro: obviously any upstream improvements also makes ubuntu better, but we don't give membership based on upstream work alone. it's nothing new.
[21:17] <jcastro> AlanBell: I don't see what being an employee has anything to do with it
[21:17] <jcastro> it's not supposed to anyway
[21:17] <ScottK> czajkowski: It'd save a lot of time if we just made membership autoamtic for Canonical employees.
[21:17] <jcastro> ...
[21:17] <highvoltage> czajkowski: I don't think our judgement is being questioned. this is an important issue and I'm glad that jcastro brought it up
[21:17] <czajkowski> highvoltage: comments above not from jcastro
[21:17] <ScottK> jcastro: Because all the special cases are Canonical employees wanting membership based on non-Ubuntu work.
[21:17] <AlanBell> jcastro: nothing really, but there seems to be an issue that could be solved here
[21:17] <highvoltage> being an employee or not makes zero diffference to membership applications.
[21:18] <AlanBell> indeed
[21:18] <jcastro> ScottK: what about Andy80?
[21:18] <ScottK> highvoltage: Agreed.  It just makes a difference about the complaining if you don't get it.
[21:18] <highvoltage> at UDS in Budapest sabdfl explicitely said that employment at Canonical must make no difference (negative or positive) when someone applies for membership
[21:18] <jcastro> highvoltage: my issue isn't with a person's employment
[21:19] <jcastro> it's what counts as "ubuntu contribution"
[21:19] <jcastro> that's what I would like to see discussed
[21:19] <highvoltage> ScottK: I value constructive criticism, complaining goes to /dev/zero :)
[21:20] <highvoltage> jcastro: ok, you know how we currently vote on it (I've explained it), you also know what my view is on the matter (I've said it above), I think we should take up pleia2's offer and add it to the next CC meeting agenda
[21:20] <pleia2> thanks highvoltage
[21:20] <jcastro> ok that sounds good to me
[21:20] <highvoltage> jcastro: I'm not saying that the status quo is perfect, but it's how it is and we can explore it further
[21:20] <jcastro> I mean, if the CC says "that's the way it's going to be" then that's fine
[21:20] <charlie-tca> It does seem like the most complaints come every time a Canonical employee is turned down
[21:21]  * iulian nods.
[21:21] <jcastro> it just doesn't make any sense in my case to encourage unity contributors to become members if that doesn't match with whatever the policy is.
[21:22] <highvoltage> jcastro: it's also worth considering that maybe not all unity contributors would be candidates for ubuntu membership
[21:22] <ScottK> jcastro: I think calling Unity development part of Ubuntu and also calling it upstream work that's Canonical's contribution to upstream FOSS work is more than a little wanting to have their cake and eat it too.
[21:22] <pleia2> this is a good conversation, but I think it would be a lot more helpful to have it with more CC and Membership Board people around
[21:22] <highvoltage> ie, the case where someone only uses Unity on Fedora or Debian and only submit patches to make it integrate better on those systems
[21:22] <jcastro> hey that's fine, call it whatever you want, whatever stops wasting people's time
[21:22] <highvoltage> (it would be great work, but not work in the ubuntu project, that's unity upstream work)
[21:23] <highvoltage> jcastro: also, the EMEA board are volunteers, we spend our personal time doing this, and we take it seriously
[21:23] <highvoltage> jcastro: if people feel we are wasting their time, then I am very sorry about that
[21:23] <jcastro> I didnt' say you didn't
[21:24] <highvoltage> then say what you say!
[21:24] <jcastro> I'm just saying it would be nice to have a clear policy so we wouldn't have people applying over and over
[21:24] <czajkowski> folks can we please note pleia2 comment, the CC are not here for this conversation and it's possibly well worth waiting 2 weeks to bring it up then
[21:24] <czajkowski> it's really not fair on pleia2
[21:24] <pleia2> thanks czajkowski
[21:24] <czajkowski> clearly one needs to repeat things >:(
[21:25] <highvoltage> sorry pleia2 this isn't meant to be all loaded on you, I believe we were just having conversation on the matter in preperation for the next meeting
[21:26] <highvoltage> jcastro: currently our policy is to not count clear upstream contributions as ubuntu contributions. if anything is unclear about that you are welcome to PM me.
[21:26] <jcastro> highvoltage: I am clear on that.
[21:26] <pleia2> if someone could take responsibility for adding it to the CC agenda and sending an email to community-council@lists.ubuntu.com and ubuntu-membership-boards@lists.ubuntu.com (with a link to this log) it would be great
[21:27] <highvoltage> seems like no one else is biting, I'll do it then :)
[21:28] <ScottK> I'm confused why anyone is confused about should upstream work count.
[21:28] <pleia2> thank you :)
[21:28] <highvoltage> ScottK: I can see how they can be confused. I'm not sure why the clarifications don't help though.
[21:28] <highvoltage> (it's a reasonably simple concept)
[21:29] <ScottK> highvoltage: Yes, but it's always been this way, so why now, all of a sudden, do we get all these Canonical people who aren't doing Ubuntu work applying?
[21:29] <ajmitch> ScottK: the argument seems to be more what's considered part of ubuntu now
[21:29] <henninge> highvoltage: I guess it's because we (LP devs) don't consider ourselves as upstream to Ubuntu but as part of the project.
[21:30] <highvoltage> ScottK: whether they are Canonical people or not is irrelevant.
[21:30] <ScottK> henninge: It's a completely separate project.
[21:30] <henninge> ScottK: I am just saying that we don't feel that same way.
[21:30] <iulian> henninge: Then Launchpad isn't what I thought it is.
[21:31] <highvoltage> ScottK: whether they are doing Ubuntu work is. clearly we have to put in some more definition into what counts as Ubuntu work. I feel for the poor people who apply and get rejected, especially if jcastro told them to apply
[21:31] <henninge> Yes, I see a communication problem lurking here
[21:31]  * highvoltage personally doesn't handle rejection well either
[21:31] <ScottK> henninge: I use LP for a number of projects that (although they are packaged in Ubuntu) are definitely not connected to Ubuntu.  LP definitely supports Ubuntu and Ubuntu development would definitely be much different without it.
[21:31] <highvoltage> so I think it's worth exploring and making the current documentation more clear to avoid disappointment
[21:32] <henninge> ScottK: but still LP was created to make Ubuntu possible and that is the reason it keeps existing
[21:33] <Igorots> highvoltage: +1, there's a gray area on what constitutes as an Ubuntu contribution
[21:33] <highvoltage> henninge: no, it's not
[21:33] <iulian> henninge: "Launchpad is an open source suite of tools that help people and teams to work together on software projects."  Which Ubuntu happens to be one of them.
[21:33] <ScottK> henninge: We could do Ubuntu on a replica of Debian's infrastructure.  It would be quite different, but definitely doable.
[21:34] <iulian> That quote was from https://help.launchpad.net/ by the way.
[21:34] <iulian> henninge: It doesn't say anything specifically about Ubuntu.
[21:35] <highvoltage> Launchpad is very clearly an upstream project outside of the Ubuntu project, as useful as it is. I can't see how anyone could justify another way of looking at it.
[21:35] <highvoltage> so is Unity, so is bzr, so is upstart, etc, etc, etc
[21:36] <henninge> i realize that there is quite a differnt perception of LP outside and inside of the team (or Canonical, which is the same for lack of contributors)
[21:37] <highvoltage> henninge: I don't undertand what you just said.
[21:37] <henninge> highvoltage: I am just recapping the discussion
[21:37] <henninge> for me
[21:39] <henninge> highvoltage: I am just saying that I learned tonight how different the perception is.
[21:40] <ScottK> One clear criteria that's been suggested to me for this is that anything that's covered by a Canonical contributor agreement is NOT Ubuntu work.
[21:41] <ScottK> Thinking over the various areas of disagreement, I think that would draw a reasonable, predictable line.
[21:42] <iulian> henninge: Apparently Launchpad is being recognised as something else within Canonical. That's what makes me believe from what you've just said.
[21:42] <iulian> ScottK: Hehe, good luck with that.
[21:42] <highvoltage> ScottK: that's a bit of a different topic than the upstreams one, but indeed, there could be a bit more guidance on that from the CC
[21:42] <henninge> iulian: yes, that's what I tried to say.
[21:43] <soren> ScottK: fwiw, I think what henninge meant was that *Launchpad* wouldn't exist without Ubuntu, not the other way around.
[21:43] <ScottK> highvoltage: It's a possible way to draw a boundary.  Canonical has stated it doesn't require contributor agreements for Ubuntu contribution.
[21:43] <ScottK> soren: OK.  I believe that.
[21:44] <iulian> Oh, uhmm.
[21:44] <highvoltage> ScottK: in all honesty, I can't say we've come accross a case where that was relevant or a problem before
[21:44] <ScottK> highvoltage: It would answer the question about Unity.
[21:44] <ScottK> (It does require a contributor agreement)
[21:44] <henninge> soren, ScottK: correct. Sorry if I wasn't clear.
[21:44] <ScottK> henninge: It wasn't, but I got it now.
[21:44] <ScottK> Same for LP, FWIW.
[21:45] <highvoltage> ScottK: ok, if someone made Ubuntu contributions we'd never check if they signed a CA, and we don't have a way to check either. (personally I don't think it should really matter if they can still show sustained and significant contribution)
[21:46] <ScottK> highvoltage: I think you're missing my point then.
[21:46] <henninge> ScottK: OTOH, Ubuntu could *currently* not happen without Launchpad. But I agree that other tools could be used but it would take a *massive* switch to do that.
[21:46] <highvoltage> ScottK: it seems like I am
[21:46] <ScottK> I don't care if someone has signed it.
[21:46] <ScottK> I'm saying work on a project that requires signing it isn't Ubuntu contribution.
[21:46] <highvoltage> ScottK: why not?
[21:47] <ScottK> Because that's upstream work.
[21:47] <charlie-tca> yes, if that was added to membership guidelines, it would be made clear that those are not Ubuntu projects
[21:47] <ajmitch> convenient place to draw the line between what's ubuntu & what's not
[21:47] <ScottK> Canonical has said that Ubuntu contributions don't require the agreement, so by definition any contribution that requires the agreement is not Ubuntu contribution.
[21:47] <highvoltage> ScottK: I guess in most cases where a CA is signed that will indeed be the case
[21:48] <ScottK> As an example, Canonical dropped some stuff from dbusmenu-qt due to lack of copyright assignment.  We added it back as an Ubuntu patch.
[21:48] <highvoltage> ScottK: so... the way I see it, it won't really be an issue for us
[21:48] <ScottK> It was not OK for dbusmenu-qt upstream, but it was fine in Ubuntu.
[21:49] <ScottK> highvoltage: It won't.  It's just an algorithm for drawing the line between what's an Ubuntu contribution and what's not.
[21:49] <henninge> late here, Good night. Thanks for the discussion.
[21:51] <highvoltage> I'm typing out a mail to the CC/RMB lists. I'll pastebin it for those who are not on those lists, or if you want me to send it to via PM/email, then let me know by pm.
[22:01] <ScottK> highvoltage: Please cc me on the mail.
[22:02] <ScottK> highvoltage: Also please cc the DMB.
[22:02] <czajkowski> that mail is gonna get messy on all them lists
[22:02] <czajkowski> messy/noisey
[22:03] <highvoltage> czajkowski: I'll try to keep the tone neutral and encourage people to attend the CC meeting instead
[22:03] <popey> Am I allowed to vote after the meeting?
[22:04] <popey> given I wasnt around during the meeting but have scrolled up and read the relavent wiki pages?
[22:04] <czajkowski> popey: no meeting is over... or we;d have to open up all meetings every time we  needed more votes and we had quorum
[22:04] <ajmitch> I'd assume it'd be like voting on a mailing list
[22:04] <highvoltage> popey: in cases where we decide to vote by email I believe it's ok, but we have formally closed the vote
[22:04] <popey> bummer