[07:26] Morning [07:34] Howdy kids :) [07:52] g'morning! [07:59] morning all [08:02] Morning [08:03] morning all [08:03] I need to start coming into work at 10 again [08:03] pah! ;) [08:16] Morning all! [08:39] Has emma ever spoken in here? [08:41] dunno, but she asked in -irc to have the ban lifted because she has fixed her connection, which was the reason for the ban [08:44] thanks AlanBell [08:50] popey, to maybe get you re-interested in the screencast project :) http://idratherbewriting.com/2011/07/22/a-few-notes-from-usability-testing-video-tutorials-get-watched-text-gets-skipped/ [08:52] AlanBell: fair enough [08:52] emma: welcome back :) [08:53] bigcalm: thanks :) [08:55] gord: I think it depends upon the subject matter. I've seen screen casts when howto text would have been preferred [08:56] bigcalm, yup, because you wern't a new user, you are experienced, experienced people skip videos as the article points out [08:56] yeah, or maybe the happy medium of screenshots [08:56] you are just after a specific bit of info so you want text you can scan [08:57] gord: ah, I didn't look at the link, just read the URL ;) [08:58] me too :P [08:58] i suppose we're the kind who don't watch vids either :) [09:00] gord: nice! [09:10] good morning everyone. [09:10] hiya [09:11] morning dwatkins [09:12] I trust all is well with people [09:12] other than my eczema getting worse because of this heat, i am fine. [09:12] and you? [09:14] I have the same problem, coincidentally. [09:14] I'm also in an air conditioned office but have the window open due to the heat, despite the rain outside. [09:14] tsk tsk tsk [09:15] our windows dont even open [09:15] :( [09:15] I was surprised to learn that they do here, but very glad - I think the aircon has one sensor for the whole floor. [09:15] It's a bit muggy [09:16] * dwatkins goes to share his thoughts with the facilities department [09:16] yeah bigcalm [09:17] i don't understand when premises are airconditioned to really cool temperature in warm weather - why not a pleasant medium? [09:18] went into coop yesterday and it felt like standing inside a freezer [09:18] because someone walked in out of the heat and thought "this is only medium, i need to get cold!" and changed the thermostat [09:19] oimon: 16 Celsius *is* a pleasant medium [09:19] :) [09:19] gord: heh [09:20] but, yeah, I get similarly annoyed with heating in winter [09:20] Mystic Meg is a silly medium [09:20] my office is cool today, without air con [09:21] thats what you get for sitting behind 6 metres of 1960s concrete in a NW facing room [09:21] bigcalm: :) [09:22] \o/ [09:23] If one uses xorg.conf, does X then ignore all other config files? [09:25] https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Xorg it seems the config files in newer xorg's are alittle different. [09:26] Indeed [09:26] but having fixed config present, will override xorg's auto config, yes. [09:27] I'm wondering how to stop my windows from becoming sluggish to refresh by the afternoon. I fear 'stop using Java' is the biggest saving [09:28] yes, java, flash etc wont help. [09:31] Aha, I don't use flash so that might as well be removed [09:32] Actually, I was wondering if I needed to add any modules to my xorg.conf file if X is ignoring everything else [09:33] not a clue, myself, popey helped me last time i have xorg issues. [09:34] So I'm removing traces of flash from my system. Is libquvi0 required? [09:34] !info libguvi0 [09:34] Package libguvi0 does not exist in natty [09:34] !info libguv [09:34] Package libguv does not exist in natty [09:35] It's in the software centre [09:35] !info libquvi0 [09:35] libquvi0 (source: libquvi): library for parsing video download links (runtime libraries). In component main, is extra. Version 0.2.11-1 (natty), package size 24 kB, installed size 220 kB [09:35] * bigcalm shrugs [09:35] why didnt it work for me? [09:36] You did g not q [09:36] ah. [09:36] ok [09:36] Aww, down side to no flash is I don't get to enjoy Weebl's Stuff [09:37] yes. [09:38] Or Absolute80s :'( [09:46] * BigRedS listens to the Spice Girls for a bit [09:50] poor BigRedS [09:50] I did sort-of ask for it [09:50] Actually, I literally asked for it... [09:53] BigRedS: so, which one is your favourite? :) [09:54] Old [09:57] MartijnVdS: I've not really been following them, and I suspect they've changed a bit now... [09:57] morning [09:57] g'morning! [09:57] BigRedS: I tell you what you want, what you really really want [09:58] danfish: stop right now, thank you very much [09:58] :D [09:58] danfish: didn't put that one on. I think that would have been a bit too much, even for BigRedS ;) :P [09:59] Started typing in gedit as though it was a terminal. That's not going to work for long [09:59] too used to using vi? [09:59] bigcalm: I keep a terminal plugin active in gedit for just such occasions :) [09:59] Not really, just what was being displayed looked like a dir listing [10:00] Heh [10:06] morning all [10:06] * davmor2 prods czajkowski to gauge her mode [10:06] Hullo hullo [10:06] morning davmor2 [10:06] morning bigcalm brobostigon [10:08] I can't believe that my 1st thought to fix mp3 playback was to reboot :( [10:08] At least rebooting is quick when you have an SSD [10:08] :) [10:08] bigcalm: did it work though? [10:08] Yes [10:09] Result was what I wanted. Just not the path I would have taken a few years ago [10:09] I've been using windows for too long [10:09] * popey hugs SSD [10:11] yay SSD :) [10:12] The only thing left that stops me from working like I used to is the DisplayLink USB thing not working at the same time as the nvidia card [10:12] 2 monitors is better than 1 though. But was very used to spreading out on 3 [10:12] i have gone back to one monitor at home [10:13] In any case, I'm glad I'm using Ubuntu all the time now [10:13] oh, you are? [10:13] I am [10:13] :) [10:13] i thought you were still on windows daytime [10:13] * popey is on xp atm [10:13] ☹ [10:13] Nope, got fed up of the random crashes in Windows 7 [10:13] \o/ random crashes [10:14] bigcalm: That's a feature to make sure you're aware of how you should be working [10:14] Running Ubuntu on my workstation and doing dev was an experiment that seems to be working out ok [10:14] daubers: :) [10:14] TBH, I don't mind what OS I'm using, as long as it works [10:14] I don't mind as long as it doesn't get in my way [10:15] I've reached the point in life when I realise that computers are just a tool for getting work done [10:23] daubers: oi [10:23] davmor2: oi [10:23] daubers: sorry [10:23] czajkowski: huh? [10:23] hi czajkowski davmor2 [10:23] daubers: bad tab complete [10:24] daubers: don't believe her she isn't she's like that :) [10:24] czajkowski: morning [10:24] MooDoo: Morning dude [10:24] * daubers changes the music and goes back to wiki editing [10:25] davmor2: how goes it? [10:26] This is confusing. Every video I look at on youtube requires flash to play [10:26] What happened to the HTML5 trial? [10:27] bigcalm: are you on the html version of the site? [10:27] bigcalm: youtube.com/html5 [10:28] Ta [10:28] Odd, thought I was already on the trial [10:30] bigcalm: ah had you signed in? [10:30] Perhaps it's per-browser or something. [10:32] it is per-browser [10:33] Wierd, I signed-up on the page jussi cited, but it's still showing me flash videos. [10:34] yeah it is per browser (its a cookie iirc) [10:36] Gotcha, I feel dumb :) [10:36] £60 for answering a few questions https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-uk/2011-August/030943.html [10:38] Minus cost of getting to Canonical [10:40] They're in London. Isn't everybody? [10:40] ¬.¬ [10:41] I'm not. [10:42] dwatkins: we're not everybody then [10:43] to be fair, I'm not in London, either [10:44] BigRedS: Except for every (other) weekend... :P [10:44] nah, it's more frequent than that :) [10:44] I'm not I don't create apps for other platforms either [10:44] quite amused they think world of goo is a little app tbh [10:45] I develop web apps... [10:45] For monies [10:46] I would much rather sit down and write an OpenOffice clone from scratch than World of Goo [10:46] o.O [10:47] actually. world of go kinda is a little ap [10:47] it was first coded as an entry to one of those time limited game development competitions [10:47] iirc it uses a modified version of ODE for its physics [10:49] gosh, didn't know that [10:50] programmers can't write games. there's far more to a game than the engine [10:51] Engine is the easy bit :) [10:51] not all programmers are game developers, but that does no game developers can be programmers [10:52] AlanBell: Yeah but your insane :D [10:53] programmers can be game developers, but they can't write games. designers of various types write games. in some cases, the same person may cover multiple roles, i.e. a programmer may also be a designer [10:53] right, but your assertion that programmers can't write games [10:53] is false [10:54] sure they can, they just have to also have the skill set to design the game [10:54] my grip on reality is somewhat tenuous, granted. But getting the blobs to distort and move right plus animating a whole load of blobs keeping track of state and momentum vectors and updating everything every frame just sounds like a nightmare to me [10:54] i forget, we have a distro filled with super-awesome AAA games by pure programmers [10:54] AlanBell: that's why objects rock -- they just keep track of themselves :) [10:54] plus collision detection and stickyness stuff [10:55] directhex: nethack! [10:55] AlanBell: collision detection and physics ARE annoying problems, but not as hard as you think once you start to break them down in an event-driven world [10:56] directhex, gord: without a programmer the game will exist but it will be heavily patented by Waddingtons I think you'll find and the boxes will generally be much bigger :D [10:56] Put 'nethack' into software centre and it includes 'PuTTY Terminal Emulator' in the list [10:56] it is a world apart from applications that consist of forms with fields on and business processes and workflow stuff [10:56] WEird [10:57] AlanBell, it would take me a weekend to write a world of goo clone, years to clone open office ;) [10:57] davmor2, there are hundreds of top-level engines available off the shelf. and the existence of "total conversion" mods for existing games shows how little a programmer is needed to generate a "full" game [10:57] real men make their own engine ;) [10:58] gord: I guess for me OpenOffice.org has no "magic" in it [10:58] AlanBell, its all smoke and mirrors ;) [10:58] where sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic [10:58] AlanBell: I'm told there's lots of black magic, voodoo etc. in it [10:58] directhex: who made the engine? who modded the engine? my point was with no programmer games would still be on boards [10:59] I thought the earlier point was that you needed more than just a programmer? [10:59] directhex, just fyi, those "total conversion" mods, always involve a full C++ knowlege as well as the API's exposed by the game engine and the ability to wield visual C++ [10:59] you very much need programmers to make those [11:00] BigRedS: Yeap but my point was with out a programmer there would still be no game so they're just as essential [11:00] C++? how delightfully specific [11:00] what? [11:00] davmor2: yeah, they're essential. But so is everybody else [11:00] games use multiple engines. high-level scripting engines are simple enough that the artists do all that themselves. [11:00] BigRedS: I understand everything it does, none of it is advanced, none of it is time critical programming (as in you must move everything on screen before the next vertical blank comes along) [11:01] AlanBell: no, but it's all done very very badly FWIG :) [11:01] BigRedS: what about the one man indie game manufacturer? [11:01] davmor2: he's more than just a programmer :) [11:01] AlanBell: "none of it is time critical" <-- good job with how long it takes to start ;) [11:01] "I'd like to start a spreadsheet next thursday" *double-clicks OOo icon* [11:02] Humm, that's a point [11:02] not time critical [11:02] Why do spreadsheets take so long to open? [11:02] that is "would be nice if it were faster" [11:02] FF seems to have triggered an issue and now I cannot bootup into Ubuntu, any longer. I get BOOTMGR is missing on startup [11:02] The app loads quickly. Opening .xlsx is pants slow though [11:03] bigcalm: cause you are using OOo and not LO? [11:03] the programmers aren't the ones deciding on the "game" part, because they'd be crap at it. the designers can build the game on top of the foundation laid by the programmers. [11:03] davmor2: nope, LO is the default in 11.04 which is what I've left it as [11:03] is the code IBM has put into OOo going to be in LO? [11:04] hamitron: it isn't in OOo yet, it has just been offered. [11:04] yeh, I was assuming it will be [11:04] "if" then [11:04] bigcalm: SS here opens in a 1-2 seconds here [11:04] ;) [11:04] and I don't think that is likely to be code of a higher quality than the rest of it [11:04] davmor2: .xlsx? [11:04] livingdaylight: sounds more fundamental than firefox! [11:05] AlanBell: I just read it adds support for better running of macro [11:05] AlanBell: ok, but firefox seems to have triggered it [11:05] Pondering moving to ODF. It's a business document though, so others need to be able to open it [11:05] bigcalm: you didn't say that you said it takes an age to open a spreadsheet you can't go changing the rules half way through the process [11:05] hamitron: yeah, they did some stuff on VB macros, that is probably worth merging (macros need to die in a fire though) [11:05] Well, they can download and install LO/OOo [11:06] davmor2: hehe, aww, sorry :) [11:06] AlanBell: I agree, it just shuts up some of those complaining for now :) [11:06] livingdaylight: unlikely [11:06] bigcalm: on your machine use ODF if you need to send it to a company save a copy in whatever format and ship it out [11:07] * popey creates a 100GB oracle tablespace [11:07] after not being able to boot up at first I then was, which is strange ini itself. I ran it for a few days using chrome, when FF was launched by clicking on a link sent by twitter using Gwibber system crashed again and this time I can't log in at all [11:07] Time Passess.. [11:07] hamitron: the rest of the stuff they have done is some fairly radical UI tinkering (mostly ick imho) and eclipse integration (what were they thinking) and accessibility improvements (great, if they can be merged without the rest) [11:07] popey: time still passing... [11:07] yeah, been 17 mins so far [11:07] I'm bricking it, because I don't want to lose everything I had on this system [11:08] livingdaylight: can you still see the hard disk in the BIOS? [11:08] livingdaylight: can you press shift after the BIOS to trigger the GRUB menu? [11:08] livingdaylight: at a guess the HDD is failing and FF happened to be on a really bad sector or something like that [11:09] popey: I can check. It is now letting me go to the log in page but after logging in Desktop just flickers and unity bar is not there, just the wallpaper [11:09] livingdaylight: can you boot from a live CD / USB and "see" the hard disk? [11:09] ok [11:09] I need to do a fsck myself actually o/ [11:09] this is less disasterous than you made out initially :D [11:10] AlanBell: that's a thought. Problem definitely materialised ever since I loaded Gwibber and ran FF as a consequence of it being default browser for links [11:11] sudo fsck AlanBell system incompatible with irc removing [11:11] davmor2: internal company document shared over dropbox. I'm the only LO user, everybody else is using MS Office [11:11] popey: it feels disastrous. What worries me is the inconsistent error returns [11:12] bigcalm: so import it one save it locally as odf and save the copy in dropbox as xmlx or whatever it is :D [11:12] Ug [11:13] bigcalm: you know you love my solutions :D [11:13] davmor2: it's starting to make my brain itch :P [11:14] livingdaylight: you have backups? [11:14] bigcalm: only worry when the tick starts [11:14] Time to pause for lunch I think :) [11:14] popey: no [11:16] livingdaylight: you might want to consider a backup system [11:17] backups \o/ [11:18] where in BIOS would I see the hard disc? [11:18] depends on the bios [11:18] hang on [11:18] if you're already booted to the desktop then my questions about BIOS dont apply [11:19] my questions related to your initial issue which seems to no longer be affecting you [11:19] ok, naturally, lol [11:19] now, how to access contents of installation? [11:20] i.e. home [11:26] ? [11:28] livingdaylight: where are you now? booted into the install itself? [11:41] BigRedS: I was. I tried going booting into classic instead of unity, with pretty much the same results except Desktop icons were not flickering. But when I hit ctl+alt+F1 system went to command line and started shooting long readings of I/0 numeric messages regarding /dev/sda [11:41] I've now booted up ubuntu live 10.10 [11:42] ah [11:42] Can someone please tell me how I would, in theory at least, mount my partitiions? [11:42] they're probably already mounted [11:42] if the system's booted [11:42] I see it! [11:43] now I just need to find an external hd to transfer my files :p [11:48] Can't access my files due to permission issues. Can soemone tell me how to get this permission so that I can access and transfer files to safety? [11:50] livingdaylight: only if we know who you're logged in as and what the permissions on the files are [11:53] BigRedS: running live cd, is one not logged in as a default user? [11:53] ah, I thought you were booted up on the hd install [11:53] so, yeah, you are [11:54] it's probably easiest to do everything as root/with sudo [11:54] *carefully* [11:54] rather than try changing the ownership of all the files [11:54] sudo nautilus didn't seem to work. Didn't see any of my files then [11:54] or you could create a user with a uid matching that which owns the files on the disk, grant that user write access to teh usb disk, then su to that user [11:55] er, there's a switch to pass to nautilus to get just the filemanager bit [11:55] and gksudo is preferred to sudo for gtk apps (like nautilus) [11:55] gksudo nautilus --browser [11:55] should be it [11:56] I think [11:56] That's not tested, though [11:57] heya guys [11:58] I fancy running a twitter feed of a #hashtag during a live debate. The hashtag will be of the debate, but I want to be able to audit the comments before they're projected onto the screen. Any suggestions for software to do this? [12:06] Is lo still as much of a train crash as it used to be? [12:06] lo ? [12:06] linux outlaws [12:12] I've not listened to it much [12:12] the debate is for a healthcare charity @ the big 3 party conferences next month [12:17] andylockran: I've only ever seen generic twitter falls, so not sure which ones allow moderating [12:17] yeah.. may have to purchase/write something [12:17] andylockran: Quick google gives this http://code.google.com/p/guardian-twitterfall/ [12:22] andylockran: I used gwibber in the past, hacked in a full screen mode, but no moderation [12:23] andylockran: the tweepy api can do streaming real time updates, I would start with that [12:29] Thank you. The guardian-twitterfall looks interesting [12:35] daubers: have a listen? it's not to everyones tastes, but they have a lot of listeners [12:36] popey: I used to regularly, had just grabbed the most recent ep to see if it still annoys me or not [12:36] hah [12:36] what annoys you? [12:36] I made the mistake of correcting Fab last night during their live show [12:37] Blame popey [12:37] It used to be a mix of the general attitude and it went a bit .... wandery and unfocused which was why I stopped listening [12:37] popey: how well did that go down :) [12:38] not well [12:39] he said something about jonos job being PR only [12:39] that he does no developer relations [12:39] I pointed out he has people who do that for him, Jorge and Daniel [12:39] I beg to differ especially this cycle [12:39] meh [12:39] not me you need to convince [12:39] I don't listen to LO [12:39] I dont mind dan [12:40] but find Fab waffles and talks more shite than an old irish man in a pub! [12:40] and that's a lot of waffle and shite [12:40] czajkowski: Language [12:40] everyone's trying my mono backports, i trust? [12:40] directhex: NO! [12:41] SHAME ON YOU [12:41] no mono :/ [12:46] directhex: I don't have backports enabled on this system and the others I work on are a huge mix of oneiric and maverick [12:49] daubers: I think there might be a gap in the podcast market [12:50] davmor2, it's in my PPA. no official backports are possible for mono [12:50] AlanBell: Hmmm? [12:50] I am pondering starting one around free software in the workplace [12:50] directhex: then definitely not then this is my production system I trust nothing ;) [12:50] AlanBell: heh, sounds kinda fun [12:52] daubers: Can you do this with you arduino setup http://www.thelocal.se/35306/20110802/ [12:54] DJones: Building a nuclear reactor is relativley easy. Building a good/safe reactor is moderatley hard. Getting hold of fissionable material is nearly impossible [12:54] daubers: Sounds like that bloke didn't have much problem getting the materials [12:55] DJones: I'd suspect they weren't very good. To get enough material from smoke alarms you'd need thousands and thousands of them [12:56] DJones: tbh, from a news site that allows so much swearing (http://www.thelocal.se/blogs/snuggling/2011/08/01/no-more-babies-on-airplanes/) I'd be very doubtful of their accuracy [12:57] Heh [12:59] You could probably build a RTU from smoke alarms, you'd need a couple of thousand of them probably and might generate a watt, but it's not a proper fission reactor [12:59] RTG sorry not RTU [13:04] AlanBell: Scarily enough, I have little idea how _big_ enterprise systems work [13:04] define "bug" [13:05] er [13:05] "big" [13:05] I'm copying files using 'cp' command. Is there a difference between using option 'r' or 'R' when copying a folder such as 'Documents' to another hd? [13:05] popey: More than about 20 employees across multiple sites [13:06] ah [13:06] most people I deal with are maybe 15/20 people in one building [13:06] livingdaylight, no, they're the same thing [13:06] occasionally a University department, but that's different again [13:06] how about 140K employees? [13:07] popey: Wouldn't know where to start :) (Other than get in a contractor who has more of a clue) [13:07] * popey wonders how many sites this place has [13:07] hehe [13:08] the "add printer" dialog is amusing here [13:08] you _have_ to filter by country [13:08] The main thing I've wondered about is how big places like that using Linux cope without a unified directory tool (i.e. controlling menu permissions and the like) [13:08] oh, we dont have linux on the desktop [13:08] gnome seems to have little ldap integration for that kind of thing [13:08] bazillions of servers, no linux desktops [13:08] and use ldap [13:10] would be nice to see some ldap integration sneak into unity [13:10] patches welcome :) [13:10] I was talking to a SAP Senior Manager for Deloitte yesterday [13:11] they are kind of interested in whether they should be offering OpenERP services to enterprise yet [13:11] * popey used to work for Deloitte SAP practice [13:11] quick read of ldap wikipedia page shows i'm dumb [13:11] no simple.wikipedia.org page for it either :( [13:11] gord, ? [13:12] gord: I've been considering having a go... but have yet to manage to get an ldap server to play nice with linux :) [13:12] i deployed replicated LDAP for auth, with 400 clients [13:13] what would /usr/bin/slapd be? [13:13] (thats the ldap we use) [13:13] (on linux) [13:13] i jigglied the giggawatts with ldap for a billion new widgets [13:13] /usr/sbin/slapd even [13:13] popey: I think it's still slapd [13:14] no, i mean what product would that be [13:14] openLDAP [13:14] thats what we use then [13:14] gord: OSX server lets you do things like manage what people have in their docks, and set printers and whatnot from a unified directory thing [13:15] don't we call that gsettings? [13:15] makes rolling out macs easy, "plug in mac, bind to server, reboot" [13:16] gord: does gsettings let you have a central server controlling it? [13:16] yeah, Ubuntu could be much better at that [13:16] popey, slapd is openldap's server process [13:16] bah, stupid dsl [13:17] Ubuntu server seems to have very very little to do with managing Ubuntu clients [13:17] directhex: dsl == distintly slow line right? [13:17] daubers, pretty sure it does [13:17] its pretty much the idea [13:17] AlanBell: Solutions I've been given tend to be "Oh, I have a bash script that does some of that" and it's all pretty patchy [13:17] davmor2, speed is not the issue. [13:18] daubers: I can't work out how to set what is in my local dock, let alone central management :) [13:18] yeah, what I want is that you install Ubuntu server, then when you install Ubuntu clients they find it by avahi or by specifying where it is, then just work [13:18] printers, user accounts, configurations, apt-cache etc. [13:18] puppet is a good configuration system [13:18] gets rid of bash scripts [13:18] AlanBell: There is a good chance avahi discovery will land this cycle for automated installation. [13:18]