[02:04] <bkerensa> :) You guys looking forward to global jam?
[04:45] <pleia2> bkerensa: boo @ jam over labor day weekend :)
[04:46] <pleia2> they should know that I use 3 day weekends for adventuring!
[04:46] <pleia2> (actually considered going down to san diego but family trip is more important)
[17:46]  * bkerensa pings pleia2
[17:48] <pleia2> bkerensa: hey
[17:51] <bkerensa> pleia2: do you think mailchimp through mailinglist would work?
[17:51] <bkerensa> :)
[17:51]  * pleia2 has never heard of mailchimp :\
[17:52] <bkerensa> :)
[17:56] <bkerensa> Guess I could just build out a simple template
[17:56] <bkerensa> :)
[17:57] <pleia2> I just write text announcements and then copy them into the new announcement for the next month/event/whatever
[17:58] <pleia2> no fancy stuff
[17:58] <pleia2> partially because I then cross-post them to other mailing lists, some of which are old school linux lists whose participants get cranky when you send them html emails :)
[18:00] <bkerensa> :P they must not like Unity either then :)
[18:00]  * bkerensa doesnt even like Unity
[18:00] <bkerensa> shh!
[18:00] <bkerensa> :P
[18:02] <pleia2> lol
[18:02]  * pleia2 uses xubuntu
[18:03] <bkerensa> I had trouble with it
[18:03] <bkerensa> :(
[18:03] <bkerensa> couldnt get it to work properly
[18:03] <pleia2> unity or xubuntu?
[18:03] <bkerensa> xubuntu
[18:03] <pleia2> ah
[18:03] <bkerensa> the network manager didnt like me
[18:03] <bkerensa> :P
[18:03] <pleia2> oh :\
[18:04] <bkerensa> then I got it to work and for some reason wifi was epic slow?
[18:04] <pleia2> I'm using it on my desktop and netbook, never had a problem, but hardware can be cranky
[18:04] <bkerensa> it wasnt my connection either
[18:04] <bkerensa> =/
[18:04] <pleia2> weird
[18:04] <rww> doesn'
[18:04] <bkerensa> like 1,300Bps was fast on it
[18:04] <rww> t xubuntu use the same network manager applet as ubuntu?
[18:04] <pleia2> I have a broadcom chip in my netbook, had to use the proprietary driver
[18:04] <pleia2> rww: yeah
[18:04] <bkerensa> but if I booted into LTS or Kubuntu no issue with speed
[18:04] <bkerensa> Im using a usb wifi dongle :)
[18:04] <pleia2> ah, I'm using xubuntu lts on my netbook
[18:05] <pleia2> (netbook travels with me and we do presentations together, don't want to run 6 month releases on it)
[18:05] <bkerensa> if I could sort out that speed issue I would have no problem using xubuntu... I like the lightweight
[18:05] <rww> my netbook's on oneiric because I don't really use it right now :P
[18:05] <rww> doesn't sound like the sort of thing that would be xubuntu's fault, to me :\
[18:08] <bkerensa> I tried oneircic
[18:08] <bkerensa> perhaps it was because I was running alpha?
[18:08] <bkerensa> idk
[18:08] <bkerensa> I will spin xubuntu back up down the road and try it again :)
[18:09] <rww> if you try the same (released) versions of Ubuntu and Xubuntu and one has the problem and one doesn't, I'd be surprised
[18:10] <bkerensa> Ubuntu Community is going lose a big asset in the coming year or two when FreeGeek moves to another distro
[18:10] <bkerensa> they pump about 100 free desktop computers running Ubuntu into the community a month and their hardware wont run Unity
[18:11] <pleia2> unity 2d is being released with 11.10 so that should help a lot
[18:11] <pleia2> it just wasn't ready for 11.04
[18:11] <bkerensa> I dont even think Natty in Classic runs to good on their boxes
[18:11] <bkerensa> uses to much resources
[18:11] <bkerensa> :P
[18:11] <bkerensa> they still ship Heron
[18:12] <pleia2> hardy is EOL on the desktop :(
[18:12] <MarkDude> Well puppy linux is compatible with Ubuntu repos
[18:12] <bkerensa> Hopefully that will change though... One of my goals is to get them to modernize and move to newer release
[18:12] <MarkDude> and runs on really old stuff
[18:12] <bkerensa> MarkDude: True
[18:13] <bkerensa> MarkDude: I was surprised they are using such a old release of Ubuntu
[18:13] <bkerensa> MarkDude: They dont really have a lot of "Ubuntu" gurus over their... I think the only reason they ship Ubuntu is because its user friendly and free
[18:14] <MarkDude> Yep
[18:14] <bkerensa> MarkDude: The people who do their classes is PLUG and they dont even push Ubuntu they use Fedora and SuSe
[18:14] <bkerensa> :)
[18:14] <MarkDude> Well Karmic puppy showed it could work well
[18:15] <MarkDude> Well - silence is the better part of valor on my part there
[18:15] <bkerensa> :P
[18:15] <MarkDude> just Puppy has most Distros beat on how well it works
[18:15] <MarkDude> as well as being able to have whole OS on CD
[18:15] <bkerensa> yeah but its adoption is still not major according to distrowatch last time I checked
[18:15] <MarkDude> so it can work even if HD dies
[18:15] <MarkDude> sheeple ?
[18:15] <MarkDude> It works
[18:16] <MarkDude> and works well
[18:16] <akk> All liveCDs can work if the HD dies, can't they?
[18:16] <akk> Puppy's big advantage is that they actually tune it for performance on non-modern hardware.
[18:16] <MarkDude> Yes
[18:16] <bkerensa> :D
[18:17] <MarkDude> And you can take yousfs file and burn cd that is made for just your hardware
[18:17] <MarkDude> and just your setting- it is real easy
[18:17] <akk> And they have a really easy install/boot method with USB sticks even for old machines that don't boot from USB.
[18:17] <akk> I haven't seen any project that makes that easier than puppy does.
[18:18] <akk> On hardware that's only 5 or so years old, though, I prefer a more modern distro with some performance tuning, like debian or arch.
[18:19] <akk> Then you can run more modern programs but still get a performance win over ubuntu.
[18:28] <MarkDude> True.
[18:28] <MarkDude> Runs super fast
[18:29] <grantbow> brace for interns from Nairobi
[18:30] <grantbow> hello nelson
[18:30] <nelson> hello
[18:30] <grantbow> welcome to the Ubuntu US California channel
[18:30] <grantbow> hello Guest95253
[18:30] <nelson> thank you everything is working
[18:32] <MarkDude> Hello peoples
[18:33] <rww> Debian also tends to support some of the more esoteric architectures that Ubuntu and Arch don't, which is useful.
[18:33] <muya> hello markdude
[18:34] <MarkDude> hello muya, you will be one of the people keeping an eye on grantbow?
[18:35] <grantbow> akk, MarkDude, didn't mean to interrupt any conversation already taking place.
[18:35] <rww> I always find that concern funny, 'cause I live in #ubuntu, land of a thousand simultaneous conversations :P
[18:35] <grantbow> MarkDude, Sept 7th they will be keeping me in line. My flight is early Sept 6th.
[18:36] <annmaryharry> hello markdude we are all here
[18:37] <muya> markdude ya i wiil keep an eye on grant
[18:37] <annmaryharry> hello grant is there a way in which one can delete an error from the pad
[18:38] <MarkDude> hello, keep an eye on him, he gets distracted
[18:38] <grantbow> unlike MarkDude
[18:38] <pleia2> lol
[18:38] <pleia2> MarkDude: you coming out to KIPP with us on sunday?
[18:39] <annmaryharry>  #dreamfish
[18:40] <pleia2> o_O
[18:41] <grantbow> oops
[18:41] <grantbow> they are learning IRC, sorry for any extra noise in this channel.
[18:41] <pleia2> ah
[18:42] <MarkDude> Sunday I have a bbq B-day party at Saras
[18:45] <MarkDude> grantbow- we were just talking about how Puppy Linux runs well on old machines
[18:45] <MarkDude> and that Free Geek may have to switch away from Ubuntu since it requires newer hardware
[18:48] <akk> I wish there were an ubuntu offshoot that cared about old performance and old hardware ... but I guess that's called debian. :)
[18:48] <akk> ('cept it doesn't have the nice ubuntu community around it)
[18:59] <MarkDude> Are you saying Debian is mean akk?
[18:59]  * MarkDude kids
[19:00] <akk> Not usually mean, just less nice and less of a community than Ubuntu
[19:00] <akk> plus, the bug system is hopeless
[19:00] <MarkDude> lol
[19:01] <MarkDude> Yes, nothing compares to Ubuntu's community
[19:01] <MarkDude> nothing yet at least
[19:22] <rww> I'd be more inclined to call Ubuntu's bug situation hopeless, personally :P
[19:24] <grantbow> hopeless?
[19:24]  * grantbow reads log
[19:28] <bkerensa> :)
[19:28] <bkerensa> rww: Why do you feel this way?
[19:29] <bkerensa> rww: I'm on Bug Team... I do see some issues myself but would love to see what other people think
[19:31] <grantbow> that's a very cool offer
[19:31] <grantbow> s/offer/invitation/
[19:33] <grantbow> UDS sessions are also a good way to better understand the people behind the bug system and ask questions
[19:35] <akk> The bug situation is somewhat hopeless, in terms of filing bugs and expecting anyone to actually pay attention
[19:35] <rww> bkerensa: I don't have a novel opinion on this topic, but in short, Ubuntu's lack of ownership of individual packages means that bug reports are often ignored completely or responded to by people with no expertise in the package or ability to fix the issue. That there are so many bugs coming in that people triaging use copy-paste responses and tend to set bugs Incomplete and eventually expire them, often without understanding the bug context, doesn't help
[19:36] <akk> but at least ubuntu has a system where you can track that ... with debian, you file it into this email black hole and that's the last you'll ever hear of it.
[19:37] <akk> In ubuntu you might get mail from other people who have found workarounds, or hear two years later than someone finally looked at the patch.
[19:37] <bkerensa> rww: All valid and good points... Notably Ubuntu Bug Team guides triagers to do exactly that... I usually will ping a package developer if I know them and ask them to look into it
[19:38] <pleia2> akk: ah, the benefits of having a BTS that mortals can use :)
[19:39] <philipballew> its interesting with ubuntu how because of its popularity in the linux market, they get bugs irrelevant to ubuntu itself, but software available for it, then those developers have to be informed
[19:39] <bkerensa> imho Bug Team should have someone who is delegated the task of contacting individual package devs and following up on bugs and pushing for fixes
[19:39] <pleia2> philipballew: it happens in all distros, those bugs should be forwarded upstream
[19:39] <bkerensa> pleia2: should be :)
[19:40] <pleia2> when I was doing more debian work we'd typically try to patch it and send the bug *and* the patch upstream
[19:40] <rww> the only time I've had a good experience with Ubuntu bug reporting is for packages that have someone specific who looks after them. Bryce for Xorg, for example.
[19:40] <rww> if you report a bug against most of universe, it just sits there
[19:41] <pleia2> the server team has a policy of responding to bugs too
[19:41] <akk> Same here. Reporting printing bugs is rewarding, because Til Kampeter looks at them very soon and comments, or reassigns, or otherwise does something useful.
[19:41] <akk> They might not get fixed right away, but having someone look, triage and set some flags makes a huge difference.
[19:42] <rww> (which now has me wondering about the wider question of how much support we can really give to random universe packages, and whether it'd be better to send their users upstream)
[19:42] <philipballew> I have a bug where my backlight wont work, yet a debian dev made a ppa to install and patch it. works great because it is specific, yet there is a bug where my laptop freezes when i close the lid for more then a few minutes sometimes. to generic to have any idea what to do somewhat
[19:42] <rww> (for both bug triage and support)
[19:42] <akk> Something that would be useful: have each (non ubuntu core) package have an obvious link to its upstream bug system.
[19:43] <pleia2> rww: truly not much, there simply aren't enough people to handle the bugs
[19:43] <akk> I confess I often file bugs on X or GNU utils or whatever in ubuntu, because I know where the ubuntu bug system is
[19:43] <rww> pleia2: right. and when someone wanders into #ubuntu with a question about some random science library that's synced from Debian and has never been touched by the hand of an @ubuntu.com...
[19:44] <akk> whereas if I reported them upstream, it means spending 45 minutes finding the upstream bug system, registering in it, then realizing I have to download the source to the latest version and figure out how to build and install it before it's worth reporting anything.
[19:44] <akk> esp. with X or the kernel (sometimes I will with kernel, because I know how to build that, but I have great sympathy with anyone who doesn't)
[19:44] <philipballew> I think ubuntu users who can handle their way in linux more then most should let people know what computer their running and if a bug on that system is files they should be notified. ( I think that is somewhat in place)
[19:45] <rww> I'd be interested in knowing if anyone else with the same computer system as me ever files a bug. The sheer improbability of it would be funny :P
[19:45] <akk> If launchpad could offer some link like "If this isn't an ubuntu-specific bug, go [here] and report the bug on version X.Y.Z"
[19:45] <akk> it might save a lot of bug reports that don't really belong in ubuntu
[19:46] <rww> akk: except then we irritate upstreams if there's an Ubuntu-specific bug. that's happened in the past, hence the "report to LP" encouragement
[19:46] <philipballew> i found a bug for 11.04 rww my laptop mic stopped after upgrade and all i did was add a line to my also sound confif but these people were still waiting for the update to occur and I felt bad for them as they were afraid to add a line in gedit
[19:47] <rww> or, e.g. Tor, which was horribly out of date in Ubuntu's repositories for a few versions to the point that upstream proclaims on their website not to use repository packages even though they're now up to date. If someone reported a bug against that ancient Ubuntu version upstream, I imagine the reaction wouldn't have been great.
[19:47] <philipballew> it affected everybody with my exact model
[19:47] <philipballew> kismet is 4 years out of date currently
[19:48] <philipballew> ^ no hope in sight and the kismet devs have a reporsity you need to add yourself to fix this problem. perhaps more help is needed to motu
[19:50] <rww> It's in universe and pulled from Debian. A quick look at the Debian side of things seems to suggest it may be orphaned there. Another case where improving Debian would improve Ubuntu :)
[19:51] <philipballew> would ubuntu breaking away from debian help a little?
[19:52] <rww> no. the packages need maintaining either way. best to stay close to Debian and not duplicate effort
[19:53] <philipballew> true, debian probably likes ubuntu for that somewhat? are we still binary compatible though?
[19:54] <philipballew> i think in some packages we are not
[19:54] <rww> ironically, the subset of Ubuntu's repositories that I use a lot (KDE) is maintained by the Kubuntu team and probably not pulling from Debian at all. but I justify this because Kubuntu seem to have a better relationship with upstream KDE :)
[19:54] <rww> anyways, afk time
[19:57] <philipballew> ttyl rww
[19:57] <MarkDude> rww so you are saying that KDE talks well with KDE? Kinda meta
[20:06] <rww> MarkDude: no, I'm saying Kubuntu does.
[20:08] <MarkDude> Well KDE is its own group sorta.
[20:09] <MarkDude> MArk S sorta leaves them alone, from what I understand
[20:09] <rww> that a lot of Kubuntu folks are part of KDE reinforces my point :P
[20:09] <MarkDude> makes sense there would be more dialog with them
[20:09] <MarkDude> Cool, I had never heard that put that way
[20:09] <MarkDude> anyway- do your thing
[22:29] <DarkwingDuck> philipballew: ping
[22:30] <philipballew> sup DarkwingDuck
[22:30] <DarkwingDuck> Is there 'net access as Pennera?
[22:31] <philipballew> there is. free wifi with no time limit
[22:31] <DarkwingDuck> Nice.
[22:31] <DarkwingDuck> Okay, the other thing... what do we want to concentrate on at the jam?
[22:32] <philipballew> thats what I was wondering. you would probably know that better?
[22:32] <DarkwingDuck> Well, bugs are fun but, there is a learning curve.
[22:32] <DarkwingDuck> Testing is always good.
[22:32] <DarkwingDuck> and Upgradeing
[22:33] <DarkwingDuck> *Upgrading
[22:33] <philipballew> true, I can handle bugs if I need to. but not always needed. testing and upgrading might be easier for everyone
[22:33]  * DarkwingDuck nods
[22:34]  * DarkwingDuck ponders
[22:35] <philipballew> is there a list of things that need to be done somewhere?
[22:35] <DarkwingDuck> Yeah, I can gather that.
[22:35] <bkerensa> :) Our jam is gonna be epic... Got custom Ubuntu Oregon Global Jam shorts ordered... Food & Beverage and hopefully some giveaways :D
[22:36] <DarkwingDuck> Two links of intrest.
[22:36] <crashsystems> anyone in here hear of http://convergence.io/ yet?
[22:36] <DarkwingDuck> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Jams/Upgrade
[22:36] <DarkwingDuck> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Jams/Testing
[22:36] <DarkwingDuck> I'll have Natty CDs and some leftover lanyards.
[22:37] <DarkwingDuck> philipballew: Were you going to make a flyer?
[22:37] <philipballew> email these links out with an email ill have natty cd's I have 8 server cd's still. yeah. I was gonna mod the Ubuntu hour flyer I have. Can i email it to you in the next day or two?
[22:38] <philipballew> btw... I dont move back to sd till later this month
[22:38] <DarkwingDuck> Yeah... I only have 4 lanyards
[22:39] <DarkwingDuck> I have quite a few Natty CDs. Ubuntu, Kubuntu and a few server
[22:39] <philipballew> I have 2, would anyone here have any. im going to the sf hour next week
[22:39] <philipballew> maybe somebody there does
[22:39] <DarkwingDuck> I have enough CDs
[22:40] <philipballew> I do to, but laynards I mean?
[22:40] <philipballew> is that necessary you think?
[22:41] <DarkwingDuck> Not really, I was thinking of lanyarded name-tapes for people who are helping other in the jam.
[22:41] <DarkwingDuck> I'll toss my ideas in the email... I have to run really quick.
[22:42] <philipballew> makes sense, ill bring my two. haha. alright ill make the flayer and email it to you!
[22:42] <DarkwingDuck> I'll email those links and another idea I had. :D
[22:42] <philipballew> alright sweet!
[22:47] <DarkwingDuck> philipballew: email sent.
[22:48] <philipballew> DarkwingDuck, email received.
[22:49] <philipballew> I can have the flayer by tomorrow morning. I don't recall being able to send photos on the mailing list here though.
[22:49] <philipballew> probably give a link
[22:49] <DarkwingDuck> You an Ubuntu member phil?
[22:50] <philipballew> yes i am
[22:50] <DarkwingDuck> Use your people.ubuntu.com account :D
[22:50] <philipballew> alright! haha. sounds good then.
[22:51] <DarkwingDuck> BRB
[22:51] <pleia2> or https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-california/+junk/flyers ;)
[22:55] <philipballew> ill look into it. unsure what i need, but it looks good