[09:57] Meeting at #ubuntu-meeting in T-7 hours. [14:59] astraljava, ping [15:01] T minus 2 hours to the meeting, folks! [15:01] scott-upstairs: Excellent timing. :) [15:01] oh, two hours still? [15:01] Wasn't it 1700 UTC. [15:02] i don't honestly remember, mate ;) [15:02] Yes, yes it was. [15:02] :) [15:02] No worries, can you make it then? [15:06] i should [15:06] Ok, that's good. [15:09] i don't expect many [15:09] i belive holstein said he wouldn't make it [15:10] i don't know if ailo is currently active [15:10] Yeah, it's because I'm hosting. [15:11] I'll ping him on oftc.net as well. [15:12] I must admit, I haven't been very productive lately. But it should change now that I'll spend weekends not travelling all the time, and I should get a decent broadband in a couple of weeks, too. [15:19] i don't think anyone has been productive :( [15:30] be back in a few, going to record a few things in the interim [15:36] I'm able to attend [15:55] ailo: Excellent, thanks! :) [15:55] Taking the dog for a walk before the meeting. Back in half an hour or so. [16:55] 5 mins. [16:55] rightyo [18:03] I wish UbuntuStudio was only a tune-up of any Ubuntu based distro, than being its own distro [18:04] I wonder if that would make things any easier [18:05] ailo: It would, totally. [18:05] Personally, I wouldn't object to switching it over as a set of meta-packages. [18:06] However, I think the point was to provide a reasonable working set for multimedia creators on a single download. [18:06] Hence it's a DVD. [18:08] Whatever happened to the -lowlatency kernel, btw? We didn't bring that up at all [18:19] Yeah, I kinda forgot about it. I don't think there were updates between the last meeting and today, though. [18:19] Let me double-check, though. [18:20] Hah! [18:20] Last build 5 days ago. [18:20] * astraljava hangs head in shame [18:20] * astraljava also adds that to the next meeting's agenda [18:23] But truth be told, if we're not gaining new contributors during the next cycle, we're pretty much doomed the way things are. [18:23] The present ones' share diminishes all the time, and if Scott's now parting, there's not many who can dedicate a decent amount of time on the project. [18:25] It's an LTS release, so we have to really push to make it shine. [18:26] I don't know the politics behind the special derivative position that US has, but unless it has certain limitations and whatnot, I'd make drastic changes from 12.04 onwards. [18:28] Let's hope it won't come to that, though. [18:28] Ubuntustudio won't ever be the same again, since Gnome 2 is no more [18:29] That's true. [18:32] Hope I can be of more use in the coming weeks [18:32] I'll drop in during the week [18:36] ailo: Sure, thanks for whatever you can provide! :) [19:36] w00t [19:36] astraljava: thanks again for taking over [19:37] looks like the meeting went well [19:37] holstein: It was okay, though we learnt some sad news on it. [19:43] * holstein looking [19:48] ah... i see [19:48] astraljava: thats great that you would offer to step up to the lead task as well [19:49] holstein: It's not great (I'm not really a manager-sort of person), but I will not see the project die due to a missing leader. [19:50] i think we should entertain a few backup plans [19:51] maybe dropping a release all together at some point, and just maintaining meta pacakges? [19:51] thats a bit extreme, but you see what im getting at... [19:51] something we can handle, but not kill the project [19:51] holstein: Yeah, I was already thinking about that, but we do have to release for 12.04 LTS, it'd be really sad if we couldn't. [19:52] im looking forward to the next LTS :) [19:52] After that, unless the official stance enforces, we could break the current procedure and see what would be the wisest move to make. [19:52] That would probably mean, though, that we'd lose the official derivative status. [20:27] astraljava, the -lowlatency kernel is kinda in limbo [20:27] i've taken it from abogani, packaged it, built it, and waiting for persia for comments [20:28] i'm considering taking it to the debiam multimedia team and asking if i can get it into debian first [20:28] although i don't think they will accept it though [20:29] [20:29] astraljava, holstein...there are many things to consider about moving away from official derivative status with ISO image [20:29] and goals of projects change over time [20:30] if the target audience is not beginners then perhaps meta-packages are the future [20:31] but even if an audience and goals are defined, if no one is contributing then nothing gets done anyways [20:31] so perhaps we don't consider what it _should_ be, but consider what it _can_ be [20:32] adjust the audience and goals to match what can be realistically accomplish by those involved [20:32] ScottL: I would, in fact, imagine they'd accept it. Why not? Just as long as it follows debian policies, there shouldn't be an issue. [20:33] ScottL: I agree. We'd just need some figures and data on our user demographics. [20:33] astraljava, i was more concerned about who would readily be accepted as a maintainer [20:33] i'm not sure DMMT would be it or i would *shrug* [20:33] ScottL: Normally the packages fall under their umbrella, and then the whole team can maintain it. [20:34] astraljava, yes, but they are very good at building packages, not perhaps kernels [20:34] it's a bit different i'm learning [20:34] ScottL: You might be right, there. [20:34] [20:35] i should mention also that i have not defintively decided to step down as lead [20:36] i _have_ definitively decided that some change is necessary [20:36] Oh okay, sorry I made a hasty conclusion, then. :) [20:37] i'm sorry if it seems like i was chastising you :) [20:37] i was unsure if i wanted to talk about it in a public forum yet and did not explain myself fully [20:38] but i felt that it was important to mention it so that plans can be made to address the changes that _will_ happen [20:38] i can tell you two changes that will happen [20:38] 1. i will not devote as much time to ubuntu studio [20:39] 2. i cannot be responisble for most of it either [20:39] [20:39] the following is not directed at anyone in the channel but i want to explain a frustration of mine [20:40] people seem to want to help, but seem to be afraid of doing something wrong [20:40] mostly i suspect because these are unfaimiliar tasks or things they haven't done much before and have little experience [20:40] so nobody does _anything_ and shit falls to pieces [20:41] Yep. It's an intimidating world, I'll admit that. [20:41] sorry for the language [20:41] No worries, comes with the territory. :) [20:41] i also mentioned people taking on too many responsibilities [20:41] i'm not saying people shouldn't do this, but we should be realistic about it [20:42] agree on a list of things that need to be done, prioritize them, and people accept a single tasks [20:42] finish that task and then move onto another [20:42] It's part of what you mentioned already. Because people are new to these tasks, they won't know what's reasonable and what's overwhelming. [20:42] i suppose i am also frustrated by the lack of efficiency or progress [20:42] Also, they won't know how slow a big ship like ubuntu turns, in some cases. [20:42] which i suppose is inlarge part my fault as lead [20:43] "how slow a big ship"...very very true [20:43] falktx had problems with this as well [20:43] [20:43] ScottL: Not really. You can't do everything. So like you said, tasks need to be distributed. If they don't get done, it's not your fault. [20:43] another point to contemplate [20:44] ubuntu studio doesn't have a charter or other document that defines leadership [20:44] i would suggest that we even consider having ubuntu studio governed by a small group [20:44] odd number, of course, but say a small group of three people [20:47] [20:47] one thing that i am coming to understand is that the chances of something joining the group to take on a major task is small [20:47] right [20:48] but, a paid dev :) [20:48] thats what im gunning for [20:48] for example, the website, it's not moving at all [20:48] someone on payroll for the packages [20:48] aye, holstein, that would be awesome [20:48] if that were going on, i think we could handle the site [20:48] someone would have had the time [20:48] sorry if i sound picky, but there really aren't that many packages to tinker with [20:49] we have our meta packages and the -controls right now [20:49] but that doens't take too much time [20:49] not to say a real dev wouldn't be needed or useful, he/she would! ;) [20:50] sussing out plymouth themes, or UI or getting new graphics for background installed [20:50] huh, i guess a dev would be doing more than i thought with our packages ;) [20:50] but also updated the -controls would be good too [20:51] astraljava, i have a question for you [20:51] well, maybe it'll be a dev that would do the site too ? [20:51] i was just assuming it would be someone to do the kernel stuff you are dealing with [20:51] and fix things that are borked [20:51] holstein, if it wouldn't be him/her it would probably be one of us to get it done then, so yeah [20:52] or, something we can fix and put back in [20:52] contribute [20:52] holstein, sorry if i sound pissy again, i agree that a dev would be really, really useful [20:52] i mean, there are broken packages, we just put out fires :/ [20:52] ScottL: Sorry, was AFK for a bit. Go ahead, shoot. [20:52] a picky point of mine is that people then think that we have a billion packages that we make, build, support and we reall don't [20:53] well, actually it's a question for astraljava and holstein [20:53] since both of you have lead the team meeting do you feel like you will be more involved in the meetings in the future [20:53] even the ones you don't lead? [20:53] not sure... [20:54] depends really [20:54] i hope so [20:54] do you think you might be less hesitant to do or say something now? [20:54] it is more familiar, less scary? [20:54] ScottL: Well, currently I'm in a phase of my life where I can definitely dedicate more time on my hobbies. [20:54] Ubuntu Studio is high on that list. [20:55] i was positing that perhaps we could have a rotating lead [20:56] i'm just throwing out ideas, mind you [20:56] sure [20:56] our LoCO is dying out [20:56] I've just gotten everything in (the new apartment, that is), I should be getting a good broadband connection, and thus get my devel env working again, etc. [20:56] and we are trying that [20:56] a lead group [20:56] i think ubuntu womens does that? [20:56] a team thats the lead, and that team is made up of whoever it needs to be [20:57] It might not be a bad idea at all. When would we rotate? Every cycle? Sooner? [20:57] maybe we could create a list of some of the responsibilities before we consider length of term [20:58] there are certain responsibilities that interface with external sources [20:58] it would probably be exceedingly unfair to ask them to coordinate with a new person every month [20:58] but perhaps per cycle it wouldn't be an undue burden [20:59] [20:59] one of my personal goals as project lead was to prepare the team for my absence [20:59] that sounds morbid or fatalistic perhaps, but it's really just logical [21:00] i realized very early that i would not lead the team forever [21:01] this would make the team stronger and it would be able to adept if anyone left, i thought [21:01] i had wanted to grow the number of contributors so that this would be possible [21:01] and i would say that it seems i have failed on this account [21:01] at least in a sustained way [21:01] people come, people go...sometimes very quickly [21:02] Indeed, and the dedication has been somewhat flaky recently. [21:02] From my part, as well, I'm not denying that. [21:02] But I'm rather interested in picking up the ball, now. [21:02] lol, in action if not in spirit [21:02] ScottL: Do you think we would need something like this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/StrategyDocument [21:03] i'm glad to hear that astraljava , that heartens me [21:03] astraljava, i think ubuntu studio would be well served to develop something that addresses some of those topics [21:04] i am reticent to say, "create the same document", i don't know that it should be the same document [21:04] It's rather lengthy, and quite possibly we wouldn't need all that, but it's got it down in black and white, of how the project is managed, and what the responsibilities are for the leading entity (be it a team or just one leader or whatever) [21:04] but addressing it's target audience would be a good start, i have grappled with that myself [21:05] i mean, i would hate it, but it might be nice to go graphics [21:05] but again, what it _should_ be and what it _can_ be might not be congruent [21:05] graphic/video [21:05] holstein, i'm not sure i understand [21:05] AFAIK, theres not a distro focusing on that [21:05] holstein: let go, perhaps? [21:05] as the target audience [21:06] fedora: design suite is in this direction [21:06] it might be a way to get an audience into ubuntustudio [21:06] i would love to focus on this as well [21:06] theres *so* many audio distros [21:06] there certainly isn't a plethora of these distrios as audio [21:06] heh, holstein you bet me ;) [21:06] but i wouldn't throw away the audio work though [21:06] the talk in #ardour and where ever else is not favorable for US [21:07] that is important [21:07] why do you say that holstein ? [21:07] we'll never when the savy back [21:07] not for years [21:07] ScottL: i see them [21:07] they say ubuntu sucks [21:07] try something else [21:07] ah [21:07] i see them say, when an issue comes up... [21:07] are you running ubuntu? well, what do you expect [21:07] i wonder how much of that is old bias...i also wonder about how much of that is true and current [21:07] holstein: We've only got ourselves to blame for that. [21:07] everything is broken in ubuntu [21:08] i cant help you... [21:08] ive seen something *very* close to that from las himself [21:08] and its his channel [21:08] astraljava, i think he may be talking about how vanilla ubuntu implements things that affects us [21:08] Ahh... okay then. [21:08] he can say what he wants, but, we wont win that crowd over [21:08] holstein, is my statement here ^^^ correct? [21:08] brb [21:09] ScottL: i saw an 'ubuntu has broken pacakges and sucks' message just last week [21:09] holstein: Sure, but why should their viewpoints alter our efforts? [21:09] astraljava: right [21:09] agreed [21:09] im just sayin' really [21:09] I understand. [21:09] we can take that into account when deciding [21:09] like, we dont have to make an OS for the tech savvy [21:11] i think the fact is, ubuntu has customizations that help make it 'just work' [21:11] and we take advantage of those too [21:11] that doesnt mean its broken though... [21:12] holstein: Yes, but it will bite us in some cases. Like, vanilla has NetworkManager, which can't be used in a real-time env. [21:13] Unless you disable all means of networking, but I'm pretty sure even then it sometimes polls the known networks for their existence and whatnot. [21:17] holstein, so, i'ts not some _we_ did, it's something that _ubuntu_ did that makes las and others dismiss ubuntu? [21:17] ScottL: thats what i understane [21:17] understand* [21:17] its all over my head [21:17] i have heard it in other circles though [21:17] okay [21:17] customized libs? [21:18] thats what it seemed like to me [21:18] yes it's over mine too most of the times, there's too much to understand/know [21:18] yup [21:18] right, for some reason ubuntu changes something in a package just for them and it borks other things [21:18] i just know, custom packages get blamed, and i know ubuntu repackages [21:18] mind you it's probably because ubuntu wants to do something particular for it's own packages/modifications [21:19] i think it usually works to the end users advantage [21:19] and they don't think about how it will affect an audio package or audio or whatnot [21:19] holstein, but i think it does, just the audience that ubuntu wants to support, i.e. a desktop user running unity :P [21:20] Ubuntu is all about user experience. The core teams, while many in number, still only touch a handful of packages in the repos. The amount of packages to test is way too vast for them to cover all the scenarios, so yeah, sometimes some things break. [21:21] And the audio "pros" are likely of the few groups who would actually find out such scenarios. [21:21] oh, i forgot to say something again [21:21] astraljava, you pointed out the strategy document which triggered something [21:21] if i stay on as lead i would want to discuss the direction of each release with a group, rather than doing it myself [21:22] So yeah, when they broken something they won't support, they won't really care that much (well they do care, but since someone is paying their salaries, that someone wants other things fixed, possibly) [21:22] * ScottL thought the strategy document was actually a 'planning for the next cycle' document [21:22] do we ever have anyone at the developer meetings? [21:22] ScottL: Absolutely, which is why I'd like to create a council, similar to Xubuntu's. [21:22] thats really what i think a salary team member would be good for [21:22] filling in that gap [21:22] holstein, good point [21:22] making sure our packages fit out needs [21:23] by the way, any progress on the paid dev? [21:23] holstein: I think Cory was, at some point, but he was not that technical. [21:23] nah... no word from ak yet [21:23] she said i needed to go to florida? [21:23] UDS maybe? [21:23] i forget [21:23] holstein: He could get around the system well, but he was not in the level of a MOTU, for example. [21:23] im not that nutty about it [21:23] holstein, if it would help we can write a paper defining the uses and benefits [21:23] astraljava: thats what i want for US... someone with that level of interaction [21:24] ScottL: we'll need that [21:24] i'll keep you all in the loop though [21:24] florida is where this UDS will be held in nov. i believe [21:24] ScottL: that was is [21:24] holstein: Really?! Someone pays you to go to UDS (especially in friggin' Florida of all places), and you're reluctant to go?! [21:24] * astraljava rolls eyes [21:24] ;) [21:24] i loves me some buntu, but i cant take off a week [21:24] holstein, if i could get off work i would go to florida as well [21:24] i wont get paid though [21:25] i'll get reimbursed [21:25] but i don't know that i could get off and i'm out of vacation time [21:25] Yeah I know what you mean. :) [21:25] and, depending on the week, i could lose a grand or more [21:26] i dont have $1000 weeks very often, but just my luck, that would be when id get a call for something juicy [21:26] Hehe. :) [21:26] heh [21:27] i dont think we need to do that in person [21:27] ScottL: So, what do you think about such a council? You'd still have veto rights, as a leader, but you wouldn't have to think about, well practically anything alone. [21:27] we get someone on salary, and they go to UDS in the future, and make sure we are taken care or [21:28] Well, UDS is the place where things get discussed. [21:28] It's always the most effective situation to make things go. [21:28] I wish I could go. [21:28] But, like you, I can't afford it. [21:31] astraljava, i wouldn't mind a council, i think it would be awesome to share responsibility [21:32] ScottL: So I guess we'll be writing a similar document, due next cycle, and vote it in place on October's meeting, and enjoy our newly-created decision-making structure for the... whateverthehellthenextanimalis? [21:32] i gave the xubuntu strategy document more attention, WOW, it's more inclusive than i thought [21:33] It is, really. [21:33] But we won't really need all that. [21:33] even if we only clearly and thoroughly identified our target audience and goals, that would an incredible step forware, IMO [21:34] Most definitely. [21:34] It might also help us gain more recognition and respect in the higher-ups, thus doing a teeny tiny part in getting a paid position at some point. [21:35] yeah, it would be one thing to eschew all this structure and still put out a good product [21:35] but i think we're not putting out that great of a product anymore [21:35] part of that is because we haven't a clue where we are trying to go [21:35] i really think we should focus in on soemthing [21:35] do audio only for example [21:36] thats my selfish vote though [21:36] i admit that i was shaping ubuntu studio to what i wanted in a distro [21:36] its not like the gimp and blender are going anywhere [21:36] they'll be in the repos [21:36] ScottL: Isn't that what every leader _should_ do? [21:36] and, those projects dont really need our help [21:37] not necessarily i think, especially it that direction is at odds with my desires [21:37] holstein: True, but as such, they're not incredibly hard to include, either. [21:37] right, but does that make it better? or less clear? [21:37] but without a clear direction i did what i felt was best, i assure i didn't go fully in my desired direction though ;) [21:37] what is it? [21:37] what are we doing? [21:38] ooops [21:38] ScottL: Well, like already established, we've limited resources, so things don't happen fast in an ecosystem like this. [21:38] s/i assure i didn't/i assure you that i didn't [21:38] astraljava, very true [21:38] what we could do is just answer some questions on our own, and look at the answers [21:38] Yeah, I mean... [21:38] i know what i would like it to be, and maybe thats not far off from what you guys think too [21:38] astraljava, but huge, sweeping and holistic changes _can_ happen quickly with changes of the seeds [21:38] We've contemplated on this question for how many releases now? [21:39] for example, dropping all video and graphics [21:39] not that i;m suggesting this [21:39] 12.04 would be a great time for that to be solidified [21:39] i was hoping for 12.04 to include xfce and a livedvd [21:39] Let's face it, we're never gonna get hard facts from the community, I mean really, really solid numbers that would clearly define where we ought to go. [21:39] yup, ScottL, those are on my list [21:40] astraljava: agreed [21:40] ailo, it looks like we may be discussing 12.04, you want to be involved? [21:40] this should be just because we want it, and can support it [21:40] this could be our 'strategy' meeting [21:40] holstein, beyond that, i think it's necessary [21:40] holstein: Exactly. [21:40] we don't compete otherwise [21:40] a little bit of 'what do we want' and a lot of 'what can we handle' [21:40] I'll read the scroll [21:40] ailo: o/ [21:41] ailo, okay, but i would appreciate you input too at some point :) [21:41] holstein, i think if one person focused on livedvd, it can be done [21:41] just can't saddle that person with documentation, website, testing, whatever else i can't think of, yadda, yadda [21:41] i think it would be interesting to see what the answer to this question is.. 'if you were making your own ubuntustudio image, what would it be?' [21:41] Especially with the help of... falktx? [21:42] and compare those anwers [21:42] Is he the one who has it already? [21:42] and vote [21:42] astraljava, i worry about falktx's input because he doesn't like to move within the system and accepted practices [21:42] he's a great resource however, and talented for getting it done [21:42] ScottL: True. [21:42] the way he "fixes" things might not be acceptable for us to do [21:42] So should we just go with what vanilla has, I mean as a starting point? [21:43] astraljava, i think stating with xubuntu might be a good direction, maybe not though [21:43] man... im blowing through naptime guys... i gotta get horizontal or i wont make it through the gig [21:43] i'lll catch up later :) [21:43] ScottL: Yeah, he's like a getdeb.net of Ubuntu Studio. :D [21:43] i wouldn't copy the seeds and start there, is what i'm saying [21:43] astraljava, lol yeah [21:43] holstein: Sure, later. :) [21:43] bye holstein [21:44] maybe we should wait until other people are involved to discuss 12.04 further [21:44] There's never gonna be that time. [21:44] but i really don't want to lose the video and graphical packages myself [21:44] We won't have to. [21:44] it happens from time to time though, but yeah, it isn't something to hope for [21:44] We're an official derivative, we can have users supported on the official channels. [21:46] i meant for of what mike said about focusing on certain aspects [21:46] although i though he wanted to focus on video and graphics, but then it sounded like he wanted to focus on audio [21:47] maybe i need to reread the scroll :P [21:47] I was confused about that as well. [21:47] First he said there are so many audio distros, but then that's what he wants to do after all. [21:48] Oh well, the point is, we're not limited by our capabilities of supporting the graphics and video apps, so we shouldn't have to drop them. [21:48] i'm making a transition in my personal life, i want to write and record more songs and then also do video for them as well [21:48] It's not like we are enhancing the workflows of the people who use them, but still. [21:48] so i'm moving into graphics and video currently [21:48] Cool, we need more people involved with those. [21:48] so i hope to develop some expertise with what works and what doesn't [21:49] Video and graphics doesn't seem to be a problem area, does it? [21:49] i believe this has been what has been holding us back [21:49] ailo, i believe it does [21:49] i don't think we are offering a complete solution for any particular need [21:50] we slapping a few "buzz" name applications on the image and call it V/G to compliment the A/ [21:50] heh, conjugated verbs is not my forte today :P [21:50] Heheh. :) [21:50] I hardly use graphic / video software, aside from Gimp, so I'm not an expert. [21:51] i have been considering the audio seeds for a few cycle, but i'm not any more expert than others in the channel [21:51] and even then i asked others for their input as well, quite a few from #opensourcemusicians [21:51] But, it seems to me that most people who deal with graphics or video, do so in a special field, and use particular programs to do it [21:51] ailo, i believe that to be true as well [21:51] but this is where the work flows are helpful [21:52] but we also need to define for whom are we making ubuntu studio [21:52] is it a rock band who wants to make fliers and video fro their songs? [21:52] it is the graphic artists? [21:53] is it someone who wants to make their own magazine, ala libre graphics magazine? [21:53]