[09:57] <astraljava> Meeting at #ubuntu-meeting in T-7 hours.
[14:59] <scott-upstairs> astraljava, ping
[15:01] <astraljava> T minus 2 hours to the meeting, folks!
[15:01] <astraljava> scott-upstairs: Excellent timing. :)
[15:01] <scott-upstairs> oh, two hours still?
[15:01] <astraljava> Wasn't it 1700 UTC.
[15:02] <scott-upstairs> i don't honestly remember, mate ;)
[15:02] <astraljava> Yes, yes it was.
[15:02] <astraljava> :)
[15:02] <astraljava> No worries, can you make it then?
[15:06] <scott-upstairs> i should
[15:06] <astraljava> Ok, that's good.
[15:09] <scott-upstairs> i don't expect many
[15:09] <scott-upstairs> i belive holstein said he wouldn't make it
[15:10] <scott-upstairs> i don't know if ailo is currently active
[15:10] <astraljava> Yeah, it's because I'm hosting.
[15:11] <astraljava> I'll ping him on oftc.net as well.
[15:12] <astraljava> I must admit, I haven't been very productive lately. But it should change now that I'll spend weekends not travelling all the time, and I should get a decent broadband in a couple of weeks, too.
[15:19] <scott-upstairs> i don't think anyone has been productive :(
[15:30] <scott-upstairs> be back in a few, going to record a few things in the interim
[15:36] <ailo> I'm able to attend
[15:55] <astraljava> ailo: Excellent, thanks! :)
[15:55] <astraljava> Taking the dog for a walk before the meeting. Back in half an hour or so.
[16:55] <astraljava> 5 mins.
[16:55] <scott-upstairs> rightyo
[18:03] <ailo> I wish UbuntuStudio was only a tune-up of any Ubuntu based distro, than being its own distro
[18:04] <ailo> I wonder if that would make things any easier
[18:05] <astraljava> ailo: It would, totally.
[18:05] <astraljava> Personally, I wouldn't object to switching it over as a set of meta-packages.
[18:06] <astraljava> However, I think the point was to provide a reasonable working set for multimedia creators on a single download.
[18:06] <astraljava> Hence it's a DVD.
[18:08] <ailo> Whatever happened to the -lowlatency kernel, btw? We didn't bring that up at all
[18:19] <astraljava> Yeah, I kinda forgot about it. I don't think there were updates between the last meeting and today, though.
[18:19] <astraljava> Let me double-check, though.
[18:20] <astraljava> Hah!
[18:20] <astraljava> Last build 5 days ago.
[18:20]  * astraljava hangs head in shame
[18:20]  * astraljava also adds that to the next meeting's agenda
[18:23] <astraljava> But truth be told, if we're not gaining new contributors during the next cycle, we're pretty much doomed the way things are.
[18:23] <astraljava> The present ones' share diminishes all the time, and if Scott's now parting, there's not many who can dedicate a decent amount of time on the project.
[18:25] <astraljava> It's an LTS release, so we have to really push to make it shine.
[18:26] <astraljava> I don't know the politics behind the special derivative position that US has, but unless it has certain limitations and whatnot, I'd make drastic changes from 12.04 onwards.
[18:28] <astraljava> Let's hope it won't come to that, though.
[18:28] <ailo> Ubuntustudio won't ever be the same again, since Gnome 2 is no more
[18:29] <astraljava> That's true.
[18:32] <ailo> Hope I can be of more use in the coming weeks
[18:32] <ailo> I'll drop in during the week
[18:36] <astraljava> ailo: Sure, thanks for whatever you can provide! :)
[19:36] <holstein> w00t
[19:36] <holstein> astraljava: thanks again for taking over
[19:37] <holstein> looks like the meeting went well
[19:37] <astraljava> holstein: It was okay, though we learnt some sad news on it.
[19:43]  * holstein looking
[19:48] <holstein> ah... i see
[19:48] <holstein> astraljava: thats great that you would offer to step up to the lead task as well
[19:49] <astraljava> holstein: It's not great (I'm not really a manager-sort of person), but I will not see the project die due to a missing leader.
[19:50] <holstein> i think we should entertain a few backup plans
[19:51] <holstein> maybe dropping a release all together at some point, and just maintaining meta pacakges?
[19:51] <holstein> thats a bit extreme, but you see what im getting at...
[19:51] <holstein> something we can handle, but not kill the project
[19:51] <astraljava> holstein: Yeah, I was already thinking about that, but we do have to release for 12.04 LTS, it'd be really sad if we couldn't.
[19:52] <holstein> im looking forward to the next LTS :)
[19:52] <astraljava> After that, unless the official stance enforces, we could break the current procedure and see what would be the wisest move to make.
[19:52] <astraljava> That would probably mean, though, that we'd lose the official derivative status.
[20:27] <ScottL> astraljava, the -lowlatency kernel is kinda in limbo
[20:27] <ScottL> i've taken it from abogani, packaged it, built it, and waiting for persia for comments
[20:28] <ScottL> i'm considering taking it to the debiam multimedia team and asking if i can get it into debian first
[20:28] <ScottL> although i don't think they will accept it though
[20:29] <ScottL>  
[20:29] <ScottL> astraljava, holstein...there are many things to consider about moving away from official derivative status with ISO image
[20:29] <ScottL> and goals of projects change over time
[20:30] <ScottL> if the target audience is not beginners then perhaps meta-packages are the future
[20:31] <ScottL> but even if an audience and goals are defined, if no one is contributing then nothing gets done anyways
[20:31] <ScottL> so perhaps we don't consider what it _should_ be, but consider what it _can_ be
[20:32] <ScottL> adjust the audience and goals to match what can be realistically accomplish by those involved
[20:32] <astraljava> ScottL: I would, in fact, imagine they'd accept it. Why not? Just as long as it follows debian policies, there shouldn't be an issue.
[20:33] <astraljava> ScottL: I agree. We'd just need some figures and data on our user demographics.
[20:33] <ScottL> astraljava, i was more concerned about who would readily be accepted as a maintainer
[20:33] <ScottL> i'm not sure DMMT would be it or i would *shrug*
[20:33] <astraljava> ScottL: Normally the packages fall under their umbrella, and then the whole team can maintain it.
[20:34] <ScottL> astraljava, yes, but they are very good at building packages, not perhaps kernels
[20:34] <ScottL> it's a bit different i'm learning
[20:34] <astraljava> ScottL: You might be right, there.
[20:34] <ScottL>  
[20:35] <ScottL> i should mention also that i have not defintively decided to step down as lead
[20:36] <ScottL> i _have_ definitively decided that some change is necessary
[20:36] <astraljava> Oh okay, sorry I made a hasty conclusion, then. :)
[20:37] <ScottL> i'm sorry if it seems like i was chastising you :)
[20:37] <ScottL> i was unsure if i wanted to talk about it in a public forum yet and did not explain myself fully
[20:38] <ScottL> but i felt that it was important to mention it so that plans can be made to address the changes that _will_ happen
[20:38] <ScottL> i can tell you two changes that will happen
[20:38] <ScottL> 1. i will not devote as much time to ubuntu studio
[20:39] <ScottL> 2. i cannot be responisble for most of it either
[20:39] <ScottL>  
[20:39] <ScottL> the following is not directed at anyone in the channel but i want to explain a frustration of mine
[20:40] <ScottL> people seem to want to help, but seem to be afraid of doing something wrong
[20:40] <ScottL> mostly i suspect because these are unfaimiliar tasks or things they haven't done much before and have little experience
[20:40] <ScottL> so nobody does _anything_ and shit falls to pieces
[20:41] <astraljava> Yep. It's an intimidating world, I'll admit that.
[20:41] <ScottL> sorry for the language
[20:41] <astraljava> No worries, comes with the territory. :)
[20:41] <ScottL> i also mentioned people taking on too many responsibilities
[20:41] <ScottL> i'm not saying people shouldn't do this, but we should be realistic about it
[20:42] <ScottL> agree on a list of things that need to be done, prioritize them, and people accept a single tasks
[20:42] <ScottL> finish that task and then move onto another
[20:42] <astraljava> It's part of what you mentioned already. Because people are new to these tasks, they won't know what's reasonable and what's overwhelming.
[20:42] <ScottL> i suppose i am also frustrated by the lack of efficiency or progress
[20:42] <astraljava> Also, they won't know how slow a big ship like ubuntu turns, in some cases.
[20:42] <ScottL> which i suppose is inlarge part my fault as lead
[20:43] <ScottL> "how slow a big ship"...very very true
[20:43] <ScottL> falktx had problems with this as well
[20:43] <ScottL>  
[20:43] <astraljava> ScottL: Not really. You can't do everything. So like you said, tasks need to be distributed. If they don't get done, it's not your fault.
[20:43] <ScottL> another point to contemplate
[20:44] <ScottL> ubuntu studio doesn't have a charter or other document that defines leadership
[20:44] <ScottL> i would suggest that we even consider having ubuntu studio governed by a small group
[20:44] <ScottL> odd number, of course, but say a small group of three people
[20:47] <ScottL>  
[20:47] <ScottL> one thing that i am coming to understand is that the chances of something joining the group to take on a major task is small
[20:47] <holstein> right
[20:48] <holstein> but, a paid dev :)
[20:48] <holstein> thats what im gunning for
[20:48] <ScottL> for example, the website, it's not moving at all
[20:48] <holstein> someone on payroll for the packages
[20:48] <ScottL> aye, holstein, that would be awesome
[20:48] <holstein> if that were going on, i think we could handle the site
[20:48] <holstein> someone would have had the time
[20:48] <ScottL> sorry if i sound picky, but there really aren't that many packages to tinker with
[20:49] <ScottL> we have our meta packages and the -controls right now
[20:49] <ScottL> but that doens't take too much time
[20:49] <ScottL> not to say a real dev wouldn't be needed or useful, he/she would! ;)
[20:50] <ScottL> sussing out plymouth themes, or UI or getting new graphics for background installed
[20:50] <ScottL> huh, i guess a dev would be doing more than i thought with our packages ;)
[20:50] <ScottL> but also updated the -controls would be good too
[20:51] <ScottL> astraljava, i have a question for you
[20:51] <holstein> well, maybe it'll be a dev that would do the site too ?
[20:51] <holstein> i was just assuming it would be someone to do the kernel stuff you are dealing with
[20:51] <holstein> and fix things that are borked
[20:51] <ScottL> holstein, if it wouldn't be him/her it would probably be one of us to get it done then, so yeah
[20:52] <holstein> or, something we can fix and put back in
[20:52] <holstein> contribute
[20:52] <ScottL> holstein, sorry if i sound pissy again, i agree that a dev would be really, really useful
[20:52] <holstein> i mean, there are broken packages, we just put out fires :/
[20:52] <astraljava> ScottL: Sorry, was AFK for a bit. Go ahead, shoot.
[20:52] <ScottL> a picky point of mine is that people then think that we have a billion packages that we make, build, support and we reall don't
[20:53] <ScottL> well, actually it's a question for astraljava and holstein 
[20:53] <ScottL> since both of you have lead the team meeting do you feel like you will be more involved in the meetings in the future
[20:53] <ScottL> even the ones you don't lead?
[20:53] <holstein> not sure...
[20:54] <holstein> depends really
[20:54] <holstein> i hope so
[20:54] <ScottL> do you think you might be less hesitant to do or say something now?
[20:54] <ScottL> it is more familiar, less scary?
[20:54] <astraljava> ScottL: Well, currently I'm in a phase of my life where I can definitely dedicate more time on my hobbies.
[20:54] <astraljava> Ubuntu Studio is high on that list.
[20:55] <ScottL> i was positing that perhaps we could have a rotating lead
[20:56] <ScottL> i'm just throwing out ideas, mind you
[20:56] <holstein> sure
[20:56] <holstein> our LoCO is dying out
[20:56] <astraljava> I've just gotten everything in (the new apartment, that is), I should be getting a good broadband connection, and thus get my devel env working again, etc.
[20:56] <holstein> and we are trying that
[20:56] <holstein> a lead group
[20:56] <holstein> i think ubuntu womens does that?
[20:56] <holstein> a team thats the lead, and that team is made up of whoever it needs to be
[20:57] <astraljava> It might not be a bad idea at all. When would we rotate? Every cycle? Sooner?
[20:57] <ScottL> maybe we could create a list of some of the responsibilities before we consider length of term
[20:58] <ScottL> there are certain responsibilities that interface with external sources
[20:58] <ScottL> it would probably be exceedingly unfair to ask them to coordinate with a new person every month
[20:58] <ScottL> but perhaps per cycle it wouldn't be an undue burden
[20:59] <ScottL>  
[20:59] <ScottL> one of my personal goals as project lead was to prepare the team for my absence
[20:59] <ScottL> that sounds morbid or fatalistic perhaps, but it's really just logical
[21:00] <ScottL> i realized very early that i would not lead the team forever
[21:01] <ScottL> this would make the team stronger and it would be able to adept if anyone left, i thought
[21:01] <ScottL> i had wanted to grow the number of contributors so that this would be possible
[21:01] <ScottL> and i would say that it seems i have failed on this account
[21:01] <ScottL> at least in a sustained way
[21:01] <ScottL> people come, people go...sometimes very quickly
[21:02] <astraljava> Indeed, and the dedication has been somewhat flaky recently.
[21:02] <astraljava> From my part, as well, I'm not denying that.
[21:02] <astraljava> But I'm rather interested in picking up the ball, now.
[21:02] <ScottL> lol, in action if not in spirit
[21:02] <astraljava> ScottL: Do you think we would need something like this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/StrategyDocument
[21:03] <ScottL> i'm glad to hear that astraljava , that heartens me
[21:03] <ScottL> astraljava, i think ubuntu studio would be well served to develop something that addresses some of those topics
[21:04] <ScottL> i am reticent to say, "create the same document", i don't know that it should be the same document
[21:04] <astraljava> It's rather lengthy, and quite possibly we wouldn't need all that, but it's got it down in black and white, of how the project is managed, and what the responsibilities are for the leading entity (be it a team or just one leader or whatever)
[21:04] <ScottL> but addressing it's target audience would be a good start, i have grappled with that myself
[21:05] <holstein> i mean, i would hate it, but it might be nice to go graphics
[21:05] <ScottL> but again, what it _should_ be and what it _can_ be might not be congruent
[21:05] <holstein> graphic/video
[21:05] <ScottL> holstein, i'm not sure i understand
[21:05] <holstein> AFAIK, theres not a distro focusing on that
[21:05] <astraljava> holstein: let go, perhaps?
[21:05] <holstein> as the target audience
[21:06] <ScottL> fedora: design suite is in this direction
[21:06] <holstein> it might be a way to get an audience into ubuntustudio
[21:06] <ScottL> i would love to focus on this as well
[21:06] <holstein> theres *so* many audio distros
[21:06] <ScottL> there certainly isn't a plethora of these distrios as audio
[21:06] <ScottL> heh, holstein you bet me ;)
[21:06] <ScottL> but i wouldn't throw away the audio work though
[21:06] <holstein> the talk in #ardour and where ever else is not favorable for US
[21:07] <ScottL> that is important
[21:07] <ScottL> why do you say that holstein ?
[21:07] <holstein> we'll never when the savy back
[21:07] <holstein> not for years
[21:07] <holstein> ScottL: i see them
[21:07] <holstein> they say ubuntu sucks
[21:07] <holstein> try something else
[21:07] <ScottL> ah
[21:07] <holstein> i see them say, when an issue comes up...
[21:07] <holstein> are you running ubuntu? well, what do you expect
[21:07] <ScottL> i wonder how much of that is old bias...i also wonder about how much of that is true and current
[21:07] <astraljava> holstein: We've only got ourselves to blame for that.
[21:07] <holstein> everything is broken in ubuntu
[21:08] <holstein> i cant help you...
[21:08] <holstein> ive seen something *very* close to that from las himself
[21:08] <holstein> and its his channel
[21:08] <ScottL> astraljava, i think he may be talking about how vanilla ubuntu implements things that affects us
[21:08] <astraljava> Ahh... okay then.
[21:08] <holstein> he can say what he wants, but, we wont win that crowd over
[21:08] <ScottL> holstein, is my statement here ^^^ correct?
[21:08] <ScottL> brb
[21:09] <holstein> ScottL: i saw an 'ubuntu has broken pacakges and sucks' message just last week
[21:09] <astraljava> holstein: Sure, but why should their viewpoints alter our efforts?
[21:09] <holstein> astraljava: right
[21:09] <holstein> agreed
[21:09] <holstein> im just sayin' really
[21:09] <astraljava> I understand.
[21:09] <holstein> we can take that into account when deciding
[21:09] <holstein> like, we dont have to make an OS for the tech savvy
[21:11] <holstein> i think the fact is, ubuntu has customizations that help make it 'just work'
[21:11] <holstein> and we take advantage of those too
[21:11] <holstein> that doesnt mean its broken though...
[21:12] <astraljava> holstein: Yes, but it will bite us in some cases. Like, vanilla has NetworkManager, which can't be used in a real-time env.
[21:13] <astraljava> Unless you disable all means of networking, but I'm pretty sure even then it sometimes polls the known networks for their existence and whatnot.
[21:17] <ScottL> holstein, so, i'ts not some _we_ did, it's something that _ubuntu_ did that makes las and others dismiss ubuntu?
[21:17] <holstein> ScottL: thats what i understane
[21:17] <holstein> understand*
[21:17] <holstein> its all over my head
[21:17] <holstein> i have heard it in other circles though
[21:17] <ScottL> okay
[21:17] <holstein> customized libs?
[21:18] <holstein> thats what it seemed like to me
[21:18] <ScottL> yes it's over mine too most of the times, there's too much to understand/know
[21:18] <holstein> yup
[21:18] <ScottL> right, for some reason ubuntu changes something in a package just for them and it borks other things
[21:18] <holstein> i just know, custom packages get blamed, and i know ubuntu repackages
[21:18] <ScottL> mind you it's probably because ubuntu wants to do something particular for it's own packages/modifications
[21:19] <holstein> i think it usually works to the end users advantage
[21:19] <ScottL> and they don't think about how it will affect an audio package or audio or whatnot
[21:19] <ScottL> holstein, but i think it does, just the audience that ubuntu wants to support, i.e. a desktop user running unity :P
[21:20] <astraljava> Ubuntu is all about user experience. The core teams, while many in number, still only touch a handful of packages in the repos. The amount of packages to test is way too vast for them to cover all the scenarios, so yeah, sometimes some things break.
[21:21] <astraljava> And the audio "pros" are likely of the few groups who would actually find out such scenarios.
[21:21] <ScottL> oh, i forgot to say something again
[21:21] <ScottL> astraljava, you pointed out the strategy document which triggered something
[21:21] <ScottL> if i stay on as lead i would want to discuss the direction of each release with a group, rather than doing it myself
[21:22] <astraljava> So yeah, when they broken something they won't support, they won't really care that much (well they do care, but since someone is paying their salaries, that someone wants other things fixed, possibly)
[21:22]  * ScottL thought the strategy document was actually a 'planning for the next cycle' document
[21:22] <holstein> do we ever have anyone at the developer meetings?
[21:22] <astraljava> ScottL: Absolutely, which is why I'd like to create a council, similar to Xubuntu's.
[21:22] <holstein> thats really what i think a salary team member would be good for
[21:22] <holstein> filling in that gap
[21:22] <ScottL> holstein, good point
[21:22] <holstein> making sure our packages fit out needs
[21:23] <ScottL> by the way, any progress on the paid dev?
[21:23] <astraljava> holstein: I think Cory was, at some point, but he was not that technical.
[21:23] <holstein> nah... no word from ak yet
[21:23] <holstein> she said i needed to go to florida?
[21:23] <holstein> UDS maybe?
[21:23] <holstein> i forget
[21:23] <astraljava> holstein: He could get around the system well, but he was not in the level of a MOTU, for example.
[21:23] <holstein> im not that nutty about it
[21:23] <ScottL> holstein, if it would help we can write a paper defining the uses and benefits
[21:23] <holstein> astraljava: thats what i want for US... someone with that level of interaction
[21:24] <holstein> ScottL: we'll need that
[21:24] <holstein> i'll keep you all in the loop though
[21:24] <ScottL> florida is where this UDS will be held in nov. i believe
[21:24] <holstein> ScottL: that was is
[21:24] <astraljava> holstein: Really?! Someone pays you to go to UDS (especially in friggin' Florida of all places), and you're reluctant to go?!
[21:24]  * astraljava rolls eyes
[21:24] <astraljava> ;)
[21:24] <holstein> i loves me some buntu, but i cant take off a week 
[21:24] <ScottL> holstein, if i could get off work i would go to florida as well
[21:24] <holstein> i wont get paid though
[21:25] <holstein> i'll get reimbursed
[21:25] <ScottL> but i don't know that i could get off and i'm out of vacation time
[21:25] <astraljava> Yeah I know what you mean. :)
[21:25] <holstein> and, depending on the week, i could lose a grand or more
[21:26] <holstein> i dont have $1000 weeks very often, but just my luck, that would be when id get a call for something juicy
[21:26] <astraljava> Hehe. :)
[21:26] <ScottL> heh
[21:27] <holstein> i dont think we need to do that in person
[21:27] <astraljava> ScottL: So, what do you think about such a council? You'd still have veto rights, as a leader, but you wouldn't have to think about, well practically anything alone.
[21:27] <holstein> we get someone on salary, and they go to UDS in the future, and make sure we are taken care or
[21:28] <astraljava> Well, UDS is the place where things get discussed.
[21:28] <astraljava> It's always the most effective situation to make things go.
[21:28] <astraljava> I wish I could go.
[21:28] <astraljava> But, like you, I can't afford it.
[21:31] <ScottL> astraljava, i wouldn't mind a council, i think it would be awesome to share responsibility
[21:32] <astraljava> ScottL: So I guess we'll be writing a similar document, due next cycle, and vote it in place on October's meeting, and enjoy our newly-created decision-making structure for the... whateverthehellthenextanimalis?
[21:32] <ScottL> i gave the xubuntu strategy document more attention, WOW, it's more inclusive than i thought
[21:33] <astraljava> It is, really.
[21:33] <astraljava> But we won't really need all that.
[21:33] <ScottL> even if we only clearly and thoroughly identified our target audience and goals, that would an incredible step forware, IMO
[21:34] <astraljava> Most definitely.
[21:34] <astraljava> It might also help us gain more recognition and respect in the higher-ups, thus doing a teeny tiny part in getting a paid position at some point.
[21:35] <ScottL> yeah, it would be one thing to eschew all this structure and still put out a good product
[21:35] <ScottL> but i think we're not putting out that great of a product anymore
[21:35] <ScottL> part of that is because we haven't a clue where we are trying to go
[21:35] <holstein> i really think we should focus in on soemthing
[21:35] <holstein> do audio only for example
[21:36] <holstein> thats my selfish vote though
[21:36] <ScottL> i admit that i was shaping ubuntu studio to what i wanted in a distro
[21:36] <holstein> its not like the gimp and blender are going anywhere
[21:36] <holstein> they'll be in the repos
[21:36] <astraljava> ScottL: Isn't that what every leader _should_ do?
[21:36] <holstein> and, those projects dont really need our help
[21:37] <ScottL> not necessarily i think, especially it that direction is at odds with my desires
[21:37] <astraljava> holstein: True, but as such, they're not incredibly hard to include, either.
[21:37] <holstein> right, but does that make it better? or less clear?
[21:37] <ScottL> but without a clear direction i did what i felt was best, i assure i didn't go fully in my desired direction though  ;)
[21:37] <holstein> what is it?
[21:37] <holstein> what are we doing?
[21:38] <ScottL> ooops
[21:38] <astraljava> ScottL: Well, like already established, we've limited resources, so things don't happen fast in an ecosystem like this.
[21:38] <ScottL> s/i assure i didn't/i assure you that i didn't
[21:38] <ScottL> astraljava, very true
[21:38] <holstein> what we could do is just answer some questions on our own, and look at the answers
[21:38] <astraljava> Yeah, I mean...
[21:38] <holstein> i know what i would like it to be, and maybe thats not far off from what you guys think too
[21:38] <ScottL> astraljava, but huge, sweeping and holistic changes _can_ happen quickly with changes of the seeds
[21:38] <astraljava> We've contemplated on this question for how many releases now?
[21:39] <ScottL> for example, dropping all video and graphics
[21:39] <ScottL> not that i;m suggesting this
[21:39] <holstein> 12.04 would be a great time for that to be solidified
[21:39] <ScottL> i was hoping for 12.04 to include xfce and a livedvd
[21:39] <astraljava> Let's face it, we're never gonna get hard facts from the community, I mean really, really solid numbers that would clearly define where we ought to go.
[21:39] <holstein> yup, ScottL, those are on my list
[21:40] <holstein> astraljava: agreed
[21:40] <ScottL> ailo, it looks like we may be discussing 12.04, you want to be involved?
[21:40] <holstein> this should be just because we want it, and can support it
[21:40] <ScottL> this could be our 'strategy' meeting
[21:40] <ScottL> holstein, beyond that, i think it's necessary
[21:40] <astraljava> holstein: Exactly.
[21:40] <ScottL> we don't compete otherwise
[21:40] <holstein> a little bit of 'what do we want' and a lot of 'what can we handle'
[21:40] <ailo> I'll read the scroll
[21:40] <holstein> ailo: o/
[21:41] <ScottL> ailo, okay, but i would appreciate you input too at some point :)
[21:41] <ScottL> holstein, i think if one person focused on livedvd, it can be done
[21:41] <ScottL> just can't saddle that person with documentation, website, testing, whatever else i can't think of, yadda, yadda
[21:41] <holstein> i think it would be interesting to see what the answer to this question is.. 'if you were making your own ubuntustudio image, what would it be?'
[21:41] <astraljava> Especially with the help of... falktx?
[21:42] <holstein> and compare those anwers
[21:42] <astraljava> Is he the one who has it already?
[21:42] <holstein> and vote
[21:42] <ScottL> astraljava, i worry about falktx's input because he doesn't like to move within the system and accepted practices
[21:42] <ScottL> he's a great resource however, and talented for getting it done
[21:42] <astraljava> ScottL: True.
[21:42] <ScottL> the way he "fixes" things might not be acceptable for us to do
[21:42] <astraljava> So should we just go with what vanilla has, I mean as a starting point?
[21:43] <ScottL> astraljava, i think stating with xubuntu might be a good direction, maybe not though
[21:43] <holstein> man... im blowing through naptime guys... i gotta get horizontal or i wont make it through the gig
[21:43] <holstein> i'lll catch up later :)
[21:43] <astraljava> ScottL: Yeah, he's like a getdeb.net of Ubuntu Studio. :D
[21:43] <ScottL> i wouldn't copy the seeds and start there, is what i'm saying
[21:43] <ScottL> astraljava, lol yeah
[21:43] <astraljava> holstein: Sure, later. :)
[21:43] <ScottL> bye holstein 
[21:44] <ScottL> maybe we should wait until other people are involved to discuss 12.04 further
[21:44] <astraljava> There's never gonna be that time.
[21:44] <ScottL> but i really don't want to lose the video and graphical packages myself
[21:44] <astraljava> We won't have to.
[21:44] <ScottL> it happens from time to time though, but yeah, it isn't something to hope for
[21:44] <astraljava> We're an official derivative, we can have users supported on the official channels.
[21:46] <ScottL> i meant for of what mike said about focusing on certain aspects
[21:46] <ScottL> although i though he wanted to focus on video and graphics, but then it sounded like he wanted to focus on audio
[21:47] <ScottL> maybe i need to reread the scroll :P
[21:47] <astraljava> I was confused about that as well.
[21:47] <astraljava> First he said there are so many audio distros, but then that's what he wants to do after all.
[21:48] <astraljava> Oh well, the point is, we're not limited by our capabilities of supporting the graphics and video apps, so we shouldn't have to drop them.
[21:48] <ScottL> i'm making a transition in my personal life, i want to write and record more songs and then also do video for them as well
[21:48] <astraljava> It's not like we are enhancing the workflows of the people who use them, but still.
[21:48] <ScottL> so i'm moving into graphics and video currently
[21:48] <astraljava> Cool, we need more people involved with those.
[21:48] <ScottL> so i hope to develop some expertise with what works and what doesn't
[21:49] <ailo> Video and graphics doesn't seem to be a problem area, does it?
[21:49] <ScottL> i believe this has been what has been holding us back 
[21:49] <ScottL> ailo, i believe it does
[21:49] <ScottL> i don't think we are offering a complete solution for any particular need
[21:50] <ScottL> we slapping a few "buzz" name applications on the image and call it V/G to compliment the A/
[21:50] <ScottL> heh, conjugated verbs is not my forte today :P
[21:50] <astraljava> Heheh. :)
[21:50] <ailo> I hardly use graphic / video software, aside from Gimp, so I'm not an expert. 
[21:51] <ScottL> i have been considering the audio seeds for a few cycle, but i'm not any more expert than others in the channel
[21:51] <ScottL> and even then i asked others for their input as well, quite a few from #opensourcemusicians
[21:51] <ailo> But, it seems to me that most people who deal with graphics or video, do so in a special field, and use particular programs to do it
[21:51] <ScottL> ailo, i believe that to be true as well
[21:51] <ScottL> but this is where the work flows are helpful
[21:52] <ScottL> but we also need to define for whom are we making ubuntu studio
[21:52] <ScottL> is it a rock band who wants to make fliers and video fro their songs?
[21:52] <ScottL> it is the graphic artists?
[21:53] <ScottL> is it someone who wants to make their own magazine, ala libre graphics magazine?
[21:53] <ailo> In my opinion, that type of stuff is on such a high layer, it's really the last thing we should be worrying about
[21:53] <ScottL> a complete palette is not available, but there are some wonderful tools available
[21:54] <astraljava> Wonder if creating polls in the forums would actually give us any hints. Has it been done already?
[21:54] <ScottL> ailo, i'm not sure i agree with that statement, without knowing what they need we can't give them what they want
[21:54] <ailo> I know what I need as a musician
[21:54] <ScottL> astraljava, i had considerd that too, icluding the mailing list and IRC channels
[21:54] <ailo> I don't know about graphics, but as I said, I believe most people use specialized software for their needs
[21:54] <ScottL> astraljava, i had also considerd using a web site (not ubuntu or canonical) that does polling to help
[21:55] <ScottL> ailo, i'll give an example, i want to make video, i can do so with inkscape (for title screens, credits, etc) and blender
[21:55] <ScottL> ailo, but i spoke with the libre graphics folk, they use agave, and fontspell (or whatever the name) and a bunch of others
[21:55] <astraljava> ScottL: Other sites could make it more advanced, but as of now, since I'm not a web developer, I could implement it in the forums easily.
[21:55] <ScottL> there is no union between those subsets
[21:56] <ScottL> astraljava, sorry, i mean there are website that will run polls for free, use them to avoid excluding people that don't use the forums
[21:56] <astraljava> Ahh... cool!
[21:56] <ScottL> ailo, so, my point is that if we attempt to cover everyone, it will be a lot of packages for everyone to download
[21:56] <ScottL> ailo, or we guess and make no body happy and no one uses ubuntu studio for graphics or video
[21:57] <ScottL> ailo, i want to clearly identify what V/G are we supporting and build package set for that, just like the work flow
[21:58] <ScottL> i think we are doing the "guess" option now and including packages that doesn't fully support much for V/G
[21:58] <ailo> I don't think we should cover anyone. Just give some examples of typical software, and not have two programs for the same function, if possible, in a standard install
[21:58] <ailo> In the documentation we can point to links where users can find info on other programs, that are available and not available in the repo
[21:59] <ScottL> ailo, i entirely agree that we shouldn't cover everyone
[21:59] <astraljava> Well, if someone downloads 1.5GBs worth of packages, only to find that he still needs more, as what he needs to do isn't covered completely by the DVD alone.
[21:59] <ScottL> but i want to do more than just give examples of typical software
[21:59] <ailo> I still think it's done in the documentation first, rather than in setting up the desktop
[22:00] <ScottL> just including blender, openshot, gimp, and inkscape doesn't really support someone who really wants to do graphics or video
[22:00] <astraljava> Hmm... lost my thought somewhere down the line. What I meant was that if we identified the workflows of certain "professions", it'd be good to include the most-often needed apps for them, or else they get pissed off for having to download even more.
[22:00] <ScottL> so i'm saying that we need to evaluate what packages we are including to make sure they actually support doing something
[22:00] <ScottL> astraljava, exactly, which is the work flows approach
[22:01] <ScottL> we identify what they actually want to accomplish, determine what steps are needed, select applications that support those steps
[22:01] <ScottL> otherwise we are sending garbage, because it's useless to the user
[22:02] <ScottL> and that is where people tell us "oh, it doesn't feel like you support v/g, if feels like these packages were just slapped on"
[22:02] <ScottL> and i've heard that from multiple sources
[22:02] <astraljava> Yep. And it's not like we're guaranteeing a 100% hit. People use alternatives, no worries. But at least provide a full set of tools, that _can_ be used to accomplish a fully-working workflow.
[22:02] <ailo> So, they think there's missing a lot of standard stuff, that they would use a lot?
[22:03] <ScottL> ailo, the libre graphic people said so
[22:03] <ScottL> not that succinctly, but yes
[22:03] <ScottL> this is similar to audio work...
[22:03] <ailo> In that case, we need someone who can find out all about that
[22:04] <ScottL> whether you are recording an instrument or using sythensizer, the packages used are greatly different
[22:04] <ScottL> ailo, right!  which is what i was trying to do when i contacted the libre graphics people
[22:04] <ScottL> i wanted to get their insight for what packages they use and why, build a work flow based on it
[22:04] <ScottL> that doesn't mean that everyone will want to do what they do, however
[22:05] <ScottL> again, we are left defining who we want to support
[22:05] <ScottL> we need an audience defined
[22:05] <astraljava> We're gonna have to shipa 35GB USB drive if we want to provide for everybody, but yeah, Scott's got a point. :)
[22:06] <astraljava> ship a*
[22:06] <ailo> I still think it's on a really high level, all of that.
[22:07] <ailo> I can see solutions, where you need to write software to guide the user
[22:07] <ailo> And, you need to have some sort of a database of information, where you categorize software
[22:08] <ailo> Software, and resources, like fonts
[22:09] <ailo> But, it still begins with gathering information -> Documentation
[22:09] <astraljava> ailo: Of course, we need to document the workflows, among other things.
[22:09] <ScottL> sorry, was on phone
[22:10] <ScottL> ailo, what you describe, software to guide the use, was something i had suggested for the -controls update
[22:11] <ScottL> i have even considered writing it myself (if possible) as a separate application
[22:11] <ScottL> it would add or remove applications by selecting predefined work flows
[22:11] <ailo> I think it's smart to do everything separately, just like it usually is done in the Unix world
[22:12] <ailo> And perhaps combine those in us-controls, making it seem like one application
[22:12] <astraljava> ScottL: That's done already, by tasksel.
[22:12] <ScottL> astraljava, very true
[22:13] <astraljava> ScottL: Okay, maybe we just wanna add a front-end for that.
[22:13] <ScottL> but this would allow people to do a base install and then allow them to customize later
[22:13] <ScottL> but if we use true "tasks" as defined be debian, then we need to create those in the seeds i beleive
[22:13] <astraljava> ScottL: Sure, you can do that on an installed system as well.
[22:13] <astraljava> Right, that deep I haven't gotten into, yet.
[22:13] <ScottL> if we do it in an array or such in an application it is purely modular and not dependent on other areas
[22:13] <ailo> falktx has done one great thing on one of his apps. You can select audio software from a list, and you can see what they support (jack, alsa, vst, ladspa, etc)
[22:14] <ScottL> astraljava, but this has an added facet that helps users
[22:14] <ScottL> astraljava, they just select the radio button for "make a magazine" or "make a home movie"
[22:14] <ScottL> and let it install the right applications
[22:15] <ScottL> the idea would be to simply the user input to what they want to accomplish
[22:15] <astraljava> ScottL: I understand what you're saying, so we'd just create a frontend to tasksel, to accomplish that feature.
[22:15] <ScottL> astraljava, i was thinking python-apt to isntall the package and bypass the seeds/task definitions
[22:15] <astraljava> Or at least that's the easiest way I see to do it.
[22:15] <ScottL> doesn't make it the right or best way to do it
[22:15] <astraljava> ScottL: Okay, that's possible too.
[22:16] <ScottL> again, i didn't want to make it more complex than necessary by including tasksel, tasks, seeds, et al
[22:16] <astraljava> But will require further tweaking of the packagesets. But it'd actually be a cool project to do. :)
[22:16] <astraljava> LET'S HACK!!!
[22:16] <ScottL> heheh
[22:17] <astraljava> Oh _that's_ what you were asking paultag for!
[22:17] <astraljava> Have you got a draft somewhere already?
[22:17]  * astraljava wants to git clone
[22:19] <ailo> There's one problem with all of this
[22:20] <ailo> On commercial apps, like Logic, or Photoshop, you'll find a lot of templates
[22:21] <ailo> But, of course, you won't find solutions that extend that particular application
[22:21] <ailo> With Ubuntu, you can combine any apps you want
[22:22] <ailo> So, it's sort of like making templates
[22:23] <ailo> But, the template may, or may not be for multiple programs, instead of just one
[22:23] <ailo> It can get pretty complex
[22:23] <ailo> That's how I see the workflow approach anyway
[22:23] <ailo> It's about templates
[22:24] <ailo> Just like Office word templates, or any other type of templates
[22:24] <astraljava> ailo: Agreed. There are problems into this line of thinking, but the way I (and seems Scott too) think it's the only way of providing for _some preset_ of people, instead of no-one particularly.
[22:25] <ailo> The first thing that should be done, is to investigate what applications people use for different tasks
[22:25] <ailo> Then write that down
[22:25] <astraljava> Yep, and that's what I'd accomplish with the polls.
[22:26] <astraljava> But we'd also have to contact groups that do what we want to support.
[22:26] <ailo> I would rather talk to experts, who do a lot of graphic work, or video work, or audio work
[22:26] <ailo> And, in all of those fields, there are subfields
[22:26] <astraljava> Yeah, let's not get carried away.
[22:26] <ailo> We'll have to
[22:26] <astraljava> Like already mentioned, we can't cater for everyone. :)
[22:26] <ailo> I believe
[22:26] <ailo> Otherwise we don't know what we're doing at all
[22:27] <ailo> For instance
[22:27] <ailo> Let's say I have a recording studio
[22:27] <ailo> I would use one software for recording
[22:27] <ailo> And that may be all I need
[22:28] <ailo> Especially if I record only from acoustic sources
[22:28] <astraljava> I agree that we need to contact users directly, but really, how deep are we inclined to go? Gotta draw the line somewhere. Besides, that will clutter up the selection, as most of them do several features anyway.
[22:28] <ailo> If we are to decide what software to use for any specific task, we need to find out exactly what each of those tasks are about
[22:28] <ailo> And what software are best used for them
[22:30] <astraljava> That's a neverending story. Who's deciding what's best? I mean, for instance, there aren't that many people involved with the application selection over at Xubuntu. A simple task; decide what's the default image viewer.
[22:30] <ailo> I mean, this workflow approach, to me, is really about vision. Providing a whole solution for anything multimedia related. It's huge.
[22:30] <astraljava> The arguing has lasted well over a month now.
[22:30] <ScottL> sorry was away, astraljava , yes that was what i was discussing with paultag 
[22:30] <astraljava> ailo: Exactly. It is f***ing huge. So we gotta draw lines somewhere.
[22:31] <ailo> Either we do it, or we focus on lower level stuff
[22:31] <ailo> That's how I see it
[22:31] <astraljava> No middle-ground to tread?
[22:31] <ailo> Of course, we could start small
[22:31] <ailo> Just providing a few templates for the user
[22:31] <astraljava> Yes, exactly!
[22:32] <astraljava> We can always branch out and add new when we get this thing going.
[22:32] <ailo> We still need to talk to experts in every field to get good info
[22:32] <astraljava> Man, that's gonna take ages.
[22:32] <ailo> I don't see any other way to do it right
[22:33] <astraljava> ailo: It's not about that.
[22:33] <astraljava> I agree with you there.
[22:33] <astraljava> If we wanted the best possible product, that'd be the way to do it.
[22:33] <astraljava> But we're a very, very limited bunch, on a tight schedule.
[22:33] <ailo> When you say it like that, I think to myself, why bother at all, then?
[22:34] <astraljava> Because the world isn't perfect, and it's still worth giving it your best shot?
[22:34] <astraljava> :)
[22:34] <ScottL> ailo, when you say "template" do you mean a particular file, say an ardour template which is a predefined format?
[22:34] <ailo> So, you think we should ask non pro users to get info on what soft they use?
[22:34] <ailo> The result: a hobby distro
[22:34] <astraljava> In my opinion, that's what Scott was talking about when he addressed the "not getting swamped with tasks".
[22:35] <ScottL> ailo, or do you mean "template" in the terms of a process?
[22:35] <astraljava> ailo: No. I'm saying we should contact the pros, but not go into all the sub-fields.
[22:35] <ailo> ScottL, In practice, what you get is startup commands that open a program and a template file
[22:35] <astraljava> ailo: We can delve deeper once we get the basics done on an adequate level.
[22:36] <ailo> astraljava, Do you have any pro experience at all in any multimedia field?
[22:36] <ailo> I'm just saying we need to do it correctly, or not at all
[22:36] <astraljava> ailo: Sadly, no. I'm just a humble programmer.
[22:37] <astraljava> ailo: When _you_ say it like that, it makes me wanna raise my hands up in the air. :D
[22:37] <astraljava> ailo: We're never gonna get everything done.
[22:37] <ScottL> ailo, i know an audio engineer who was sacked (because of the economy i believe) who is mixing and mastering at home now with FL/OSS
[22:37] <astraljava> ailo: Gotta start small, and aim bigger in the future.
[22:37] <ScottL> i can talk to him as well
[22:37] <ailo> We can't ask the general public, cause they will probably not be using the right software for what they want to achieve.
[22:38] <ailo> They won't know when they're doing something wrong, etc
[22:38] <ailo> And, even at a very basic level, you still already have a few subfields
[22:38] <astraljava> ailo: I didn't say we only talk to people we meet on the streets.
[22:39] <ScottL> but i think a generalized poll in ubuntu forums isn't far from that perhaps
[22:39] <ScottL> let me clarify that however
[22:39] <ScottL> i would be VERY interested in hearing their input about what they want to accomplish
[22:40] <astraljava> ailo: I meant we can't possibly meet the every specification every sub-field of highly-polished professional level.
[22:40] <ScottL> however, i would like to ask experts or pros about HOW they would accomplish those things
[22:40] <ailo> ScottL, Yeah, that's different
[22:41] <astraljava> Man, I'm not typing nor thinking very coherently anymore, I believe it's time to crash.
[22:42] <ailo> Sleep well astraljava. We'll sort it out :)
[22:42] <ailo> ScottL, Think of a menu, with submenus. All the items are workflow based.
[22:43] <ailo> ScottL, First, 1.Audio, 2. Graphics 3. Video
[22:43] <ScottL> astraljava, lol, goodnight my friend, get some rest
[22:43] <astraljava> Sure. :) Like I said, I'm more familiar with code. I play the guitar, and want to record it in the future, but haven't got the experience yet.
[22:43] <astraljava> Later folks!
[22:43] <ScottL> ailo, okay
[22:43] <ailo> astraljava, I only have experience in the audio field, so I know what type of workflows I am looking for
[22:44] <ScottL> ailo, your experience...is it more midi/sythns or instruments?
[22:44] <ailo> It's everything, really. Though, I've been using tools like Cubase more than midi trackers and such
[22:45] <ailo> Nowadays I use puredata mostly, but I've done a lot of studio recording
[22:45] <ailo> Just like holstein 
[22:45] <ailo> I play, I record, I use the computer to make sounds
[22:45] <ailo> I edit, mix
[22:45] <ailo> Can't say I'm an expert in all I do, but I've been doing everything
[22:46] <ailo> Mixing and mastering is a science of it's own
[22:46] <ailo> You might be using the same software for mixing as you do for mastering
[22:46] <ailo> But, you're doing two different things
[22:47] <ailo> ScottL, Okay, so the menu again. From audio, you go where?
[22:48] <ailo> Recording, Mixing, Mastering, Instruments...
[22:48] <ailo> Or, Electronica, Metal..
[22:49] <ailo> From recording, you might have a submenu with options referring to the style of music, I guess. 
[22:50] <ailo> Just like the templates in a program like Logic, or Cubase
[22:50] <ailo> But, instead of opening one program, you open several, if needed
[22:50] <ailo> Don't know if you get what I mean now
[22:50] <ScottL> ailo, where would this menu be?  is it the menu on the desktop that we currently have?
[22:51] <ScottL> is this for installing applications?
[22:51] <ailo> No, to use them for specific tasks
[22:51] <ailo> Audio -> Recording -> pop/rock
[22:52] <ailo> That could open qtractor, or Ardour
[22:53] <ailo> Or, jackd, then qtractor, for instance
[22:53] <ailo> Audio -> Recording -> Hip Hop
[22:54] <ailo> Opens qtractor, and Hydrogen, already loaded with sounds for Hip Hop
[22:54] <ailo> The best solution I think is to have an application that lets' you look for your workflow
[22:55] <ailo> Either you search for tags, or use this tree approach
[22:57] <ailo> I have no idea how to categorize graphic or video tasks, but for audio, I think something like that would work
[22:58] <ailo> Audio -> Recording -> pop/rock could open a whole range of programs, like: jackd, qtractor, rackarakk, Hydrogen, and some piano
[22:59] <ailo> qtractor would already have channels with names for "drums(hydrogen)", "guitar"(rakkarack) etc
[22:59] <ailo> And they would all be connected accordingly
[23:01] <ailo> You could go further: Audio -> Recording -> pop/rock -> (further defined)
[23:01] <ailo> Or, you could stop at: Audio -> Recording
[23:01] <ailo> Recording, however, is a huge field
[23:02] <ailo> And no program fits into that workflow description
[23:03] <ailo> Audio -> Editing, would open Audacity most probably
[23:04] <ailo> Audio -> Mastering... a custom Ardour session with plugins already loaded
[23:06] <ailo> ScottL, Do you see it?
[23:06] <ScottL> sorry,was with family
[23:07] <ailo> Mastering is not my field of expertise, but that's something that could be done with Audacity with great success
[23:07] <ScottL> i like the idea of asking users to identify what they are doing, rather than just a menu of applications
[23:07] <ailo> For novice users, that is a good way to learn
[23:08] <ScottL> ailo, perhaps i'm elitist, but if we are considering moving away from "hobby distro" then i not suggest audacity for most activities
[23:08] <ScottL> maybe editing a podcast
[23:08] <ailo> For advanced users, they will want to customize everything
[23:08] <ScottL> but this is dithering, the use and direction remains the same
[23:08] <ailo> Audacity is a very powerful tool
[23:09] <ailo> Just have to know how to use it
[23:09] <ailo> That's another problem with this approach
[23:09] <ailo> Not everyone know what they are supposed to do, even when they know what they want to achieve, and even know what programs to use
[23:09] <ailo> That's a gap, we can't fill
[23:10] <ailo> Audacity is a file editing tool. You can record with it, but that's not what it's for
[23:10] <ailo> It's perfect for editing single files, or mastering, or making electroacoustic music (which is mostly about editing audio files usually)
[23:11] <ailo> I would say Audacity is an elitist tool
[23:12] <ailo> Ardour is mostly for audio recording
[23:12] <ailo> It's best used for recording and mixing
[23:12] <ailo> But, can also be used for mastering
[23:13] <ailo> Musicians prefer that type of software
[23:13] <ailo> People who make music using drummachines and synths might prefer trackers, like Hydrogen
[23:13] <ailo> Hydrogen is also a drum machine
[23:14] <ailo> ScottL, It's getting late for me as well. 
[23:15] <ailo> ScottL, In practice, when you choose a workflow, you open programs that are loaded with templates. That's how I see it
[23:15] <ailo> The organization of the workflow needs to be determined by people who are experts in different fields.
[23:17] <ScottL> i agree with you about audacity, it is a powerful tool
[23:17] <ailo> ScottL, I'm forgetting session handling, like ladish, for audio
[23:18] <ailo> That would seem to be the smartest tool to use in this case, for audio
[23:18] <ScottL> depends on the case, i would suggest
[23:18] <ScottL> many times users will be using plugins, and i think ardour would be better
[23:18] <ailo> For workflows, I mean
[23:18] <ScottL> oh, yeah worfk lows
[23:19] <ailo> I still haven't tried ladish
[23:19] <ailo> I just assume it is the right way to go for creating templates for audio
[23:20] <ailo> And it makes it so much easier for the user to create their own templates
[23:20] <ailo> For graphics and video, I don't know
[23:20] <ailo> Having standard workflows is great.
[23:20] <ailo> It would be even greater if you could save your own templates
[23:20] <ailo> Which you can do with ladish
[23:22] <ailo> If you can't save your templates, the workflows may still be useful, but they will probably mostly be used to get introduced to Linux programs
[23:25] <ailo> See you later ScottL. Time to doze off
[23:25] <ScottL> ailo, bye, sorry i've been unresponsive a bit, family stuff
[23:51] <ScottL> i am very intrigued by the menu based on work flow concept
[23:52] <ScottL> i wonder if this is applicable for the target audience
[23:52] <ScottL> also, i agree that the ability to create and edit templates would be imperative