[07:40] morning folks [07:43] Woot, just 231MiB left till my local mirror's downloaded for oggcamp [07:54] daubers: that's like 2 minutes download time [07:58] MartijnVdS: Not while downloading all the Ubuntu CD isos and all the Fedora isos :) [07:59] Need to grab the kubuntu isos too [08:00] daubers: time for fibre ;) [08:00] daubers: (I'm assuming disk bandwidth isn't the issue on your setups ;)) [08:01] MartijnVdS: Definatley not :) It's just interwebs bandwidth [08:30] Good morning all! [08:42] Morning! [08:44] o/ [08:51] Hi, does the system memory clean it's cache by itself? [08:51] i.e. is there a set time for it to happen? [08:52] i ask because if i type free -t -m the used space doesnt seem to go down [08:52] uk today \o/ [08:55] I have to force clean cache for the used memory to go down :\ [08:55] strange [08:59] GreenDance: why would you want to force clear the cache? [08:59] GreenDance: It'll cache some IO stuff for a while in order to speed up disk access on frequently used files [08:59] oh [08:59] GreenDance: Also, if you force flush the cache, make sure you "sync" first [08:59] so it's normal for the used memory to be high-per-say [09:00] GreenDance: "high" is a relative term :) [09:01] Used: 428mb, after flush, 161mb [09:01] big difference ? [09:02] why do you care? [09:02] GreenDance: That would probably be normal [09:02] cache is something the kernel manages [09:03] popey, I was trying to compare how much memory is used by ubuntu to xubuntu to lubuntu [09:03] popey, I've read some stories before that gnome is a memory hog [09:04] popey, so I was trying to see for myself [09:05] unless you really run out, its not a problem [09:06] the reason I was trying to compare was because some stories I've read say ubuntu is suitable for old pcs while others say it isn't [09:07] popey, ? [09:09] daubers, what do you think? [09:10] morning all [09:10] what are you trying to run it on GreenDance ? [09:11] morning davmor2 [09:11] popey, P3 500, 256mb ram [09:11] just need to send out a mail to see if the lug want to meet in wolvo town center tonight I'm going to say not but hey they might surprise me :D [09:17] why do the ubuntu team try to shove so many extra programs onto the cd installed? [09:17] i.e. why can't their just be a bare bone install of ubuntu [09:17] why not fill it? [09:17] there is always minimal install [09:17] Myrtti, why fill it? [09:18] !minimal [09:18] The Minimal CD image is very small in size, and it downloads most packages from the Internet during installation, allowing you to select only those you want (the installer is like the one on the !Alternate CD). See https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/MinimalCD [09:18] Myrtti, that's a long winded way to get a bare bone install though [09:18] http://twitpic.com/63trpj [09:18] ^^^ new 3G dongle [09:18] popey, P3 500, 256mb ram [09:19] GreenDance: they dont "shove" "extra" programs on the CD [09:19] there's one mail client, one browser, one office suite, one network connectivity tool [09:19] GreenDance: I wouldn't run Ubuntu on that [09:19] GreenDance: i would try debian on a machine that minimal, ubuntu may still be way to heavy. [09:19] popey, when I mean "shove" i mean the standard ubuntu install is full to the brim of a cdr [09:19] lubuntu [09:19] +1 [09:19] does it have to be? [09:19] GreenDance: yes, and if we could fit more on it we would [09:19] or that Myrtti, yes :) [09:20] GreenDance: other distros are available [09:20] or maybe just a cli with 256mb ram [09:20] popey, but why? [09:20] because people want it [09:20] people want a functional live cd [09:20] if you dont, then use something else [09:20] or spin your own iso image [09:20] popey, but it's not giving people choice of who want to use ubuntu [09:20] because people need a browser, email client and an office suite... [09:21] software centre is pre-installed [09:21] plenty of choice [09:21] GreenDance: as I said, there is always mini.iso [09:21] I think you're missing the point of ubuntu [09:21] most people are running on substantially better hardware than 10yr old machine..you can get 5yr old machines for free if you look around [09:22] popey, yes software centre is pre installed, that's lots of choice, but surely it would be better to allow people the choice during install say "Full Install" or "Minimal Ubuntu Install" (Gnome) [09:22] I disagree [09:22] popey, how so? [09:23] I disagree that your proposal would be "better" [09:23] popey, say for example somone wanted ubuntu and just firefox, nothing else, they need to go through the process of uninstalling everything else if they only want gnome and firefox [09:23] GreenDance: you can try lubuntu or xubuntu on a machine that minimal [09:24] GreenDance: so the whole ubuntu cd should be tailored for that _one_ use case? [09:24] (it's not a common use case) [09:24] GreenDance: it seems that you are in the minority. however ubuntu allows you to make your own "respin" of customised ubuntu. [09:24] indeed [09:25] and ubuntu can be configured in a kiosk mode, which boots directly to a browser if you want it [09:25] i've done that and it isn't much work either [09:26] oimon / popey , let's say 1,000 sys admins go to install ubuntu in their businesses, there boses say, just a system os and browser, each then have to spend the time to re-spin ubuntu before installing on the machines [09:26] mini.iso [09:26] again, not common [09:26] they'd have to anyway, for centralized authentication, etc. [09:26] or use mini iso as Myrtti suggests [09:27] the problem with the mini cd is the time it takes to re-spin it [09:27] errr [09:27] no. [09:27] re spin? [09:27] build a custom iso [09:27] why would you respin a 50Mb CD [09:27] thats not what the mini iso is for [09:28] mini installs the minimal system [09:28] the alternate cd has the option to install a minimal system too [09:28] and you can then "apt-get install firefox" :D [09:28] after that it is trivial to have it install what you want [09:28] popey, what about gnome? [09:28] what about gnome? [09:29] oh man... [09:29] this is a pointless discussion [09:29] popey, with a minimal install, if you install ubuntu-gnome (i've forgot the name) it installs a full ubuntu system [09:29] games etc... [09:29] no [09:29] ubuntu-desktop does [09:29] "Other packages are available" [09:29] * Myrtti goes to finish packing her luggage [09:30] popey, is there just a package for a basic gnome 2.30? [09:30] probably, yeah [09:31] I've never been able to locate it [09:31] it must be hiding somewhere [09:31] GreenDance: gnome-desktop-environment - The GNOME Desktop Environment [09:31] !info gnome-desktop-environment [09:31] gnome-desktop-environment (source: meta-gnome2): The GNOME Desktop Environment. In component universe, is optional. Version 1:2.30+7ubuntu3 (natty), package size 2 kB, installed size 48 kB [09:31] looks good [09:31] 48 kB? [09:31] :D [09:32] it's a meta pacakge [09:32] GreenDance: metapackage [09:32] thanks for that daubers [09:32] GreenDance: It's a meta package, will depend on all the other bits [09:32] This package depends on the standard set of applications that are part of the official GNOME release [09:32] apt-cache show gnome-desktop-environment [09:33] GreenDance: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/662493/ <- shows what it depends on [09:33] GreenDance: i fully agree with you [09:33] and btw, software centre is worse than no choice at all [09:34] anyone who has the desire to do this , also has the expertise to get the alternate installer cd and do what they wish [09:34] thank you ali1234 [09:34] the alternate installer makes me lol [09:34] customizing each and every installation manually... yeah right [09:37] it's the exact same brush off that users have been getting over desktop environments, actually [09:37] "oh, you don't like unity or gnome 3? well, you should just use a terminal then, you would like that" [09:37] oh please [09:37] the vast majority of people dont need a custom install [09:37] other desktop environments are only an apt-get away [09:37] those that do (cited by GreenDance as IT professionals) have sufficient clue to do it [09:38] apparently there's no middle ground, you either use the plastic clown scissors, or the machete, we can't have *anything* in between [09:38] ali1234: You do, of course, have the choice to fork gnome and keep it maintained [09:39] There's plenty of room in between [09:39] I was citing two main groups [09:39] daubers, fork gnome, that would be a headake, as so I've read. [09:40] GreenDance: Indeed, but the option is there. There is nothing physically stopping someone from doing it. They just have to accept that most application developers will probably move across to the new toolkits [09:40] so they'll need to backport [09:40] daubers: the necessity of forking gnome is yet another false dichotomy [09:40] ali1234: Never said it was necessary, just said you have the choice :) You're putting words in my terminal now [09:41] i think kde4 might have beautified a bit. kde 3.5 continuation project AKA trinity is looking ugly http://www.trinitydesktop.org/screenshots.php [09:41] popey, personally what I can't understand is, during the ubuntu install, if someone selected "Ubuntu, Gnome, Firefox" why can't the ubuntu installer simply purge the extra's from the live image?, then we have the middle, more people have more choice, surely that can't be hard to include into the cd installer? [09:41] GreenDance: And you confuse newer uses as to what "Gnome" is? [09:41] GreenDance: heard of debian? [09:41] oimon, of course [09:41] sounds more up your street [09:42] ubuntu + gnome + firefox doesn't sound like ubuntu to me [09:42] ali1234, seems to be the only one who understands me [09:43] oimon, the point i'm trying to make is allow easy choice [09:43] if i don't like banshee or shotwell i have an easy choice [09:43] apt-get remove [09:43] GreenDance: But that's not easy as it increases the initial learning curve for new people and non-technical people (i.e. the majority) [09:43] ever wondered why/how the ubuntu install image isntalls so quickly? [09:44] GreenDance: I understand you, I just disagree [09:44] grab the latest ubuntu, no hastle, insert cd, minimal desktop enviroment, job done [09:45] GreenDance: "Ubuntu is rubbish because I can't open my documents from Windows", "Ubuntu is rubbish because it can't deal with my Photos like $otheros does" [09:45] GreenDance: easy choice of WHAT! there are a bunch of cd's kubuntu, lubuntu, xubuntu, edubuntu, server, minimal, mythbuntu and ubuntu studio Those are just the official ones there are others on top of that [09:45] GreenDance: Thats the type of problem you'll introduce to the majority of users [09:45] davmor2: most of those aren't actually official [09:46] standard ubuntu install copies an image onto your machine, it doesn't do much configuration. nobody would put up with a 5x slower install for your sake [09:46] ali1234: all of those are the official ones, the ones that have passed the TB meetings and have there iso's on canonical servers [09:46] daubers: yet when people say "ubuntu is rubbish because the buttons are not in the same place as $otheros" then they are wrong, right? [09:46] unless $otheros is OS X [09:47] Wow, that took a few attempts to get into freenode today [09:47] o_O why would you leave? [09:47] Heh [09:48] ali1234: they are also the ones that get tested by the qa volunteers and canonical staff on each release [09:48] I like to turn off machines at night that I'm not using (excluding servers) and can't be bothered to set up a proxy [09:48] (Connection reset by peer) [09:48] I don't know what caused me to be reset by peer [09:49] sounds like freenode is having problems today [09:49] GreenDance: problem with freenode I think. Took me a lot of effort to connect this morning [09:49] thanks for letting me know ali1234 bigcalm :) [09:51] bigcalm: not seen any annoucements as such [09:51] GreenDance: you might actually like opensuse, it has a highly configurable installer [09:52] unfortunately the installer is probably it's only good feature [09:52] czajkowski: might be a problem between VirginMedia and freenode :) [09:52] bigcalm: that is also a possibility if they are still messing around with their packet shaper [09:55] !ping [09:55] another contentless ping... sigh... [09:55] Took a while [09:56] extreme lag? packet shaper :( [09:56] ☹ [09:56] ali1234: I agree... opensuse considered harmful ;-) [09:57] popey, would it be so hard for whoever maintains the ubuntu installer to code in an option for just gnome and firefox and purge the extras added in? it might be a small market of people who would want this, but every linux user counts [09:57] GreenDance: it actually would be hard [09:58] because the installer works by basically just copying the rootfs [09:58] it doesn't work like the traditional debian installer at all [09:58] now, if you use the alternate CD it would be possible [09:58] just needs someone to throw together a seed file [09:58] if there isn't already one that suits you [09:59] but the problem with gnome is it's unmaintained now, and probably won't work properly with gtk3 [09:59] and gnome3 is just ... well let's not even go there [10:00] bigcalm: you'll know if you get a wallop re freenode [10:00] they annouce issues [10:01] GreenDance: Ubuntu is aimed at new users they are likely to want to learn how to install stuff just to get the system they had in windows/mac os. It is taylored to that and nothing else. If you want a system that is different to that then you modify it the end! [10:01] ^ i thought it was supposed to be for everyone? [10:01] s/likely/not likely [10:01] anyway, i have to reboot to install this compiz patch [10:01] so i'll stop trolling you now [10:02] czajkowski: indeed. But I wouldn't see any messages if I couldn't connect ;) [10:02] you can't really say it's easy to make 11.04 act like windows... you have to put in a bunch of gconf hacks just to get the menus working right [10:03] it's perfectly fine if ubuntu wants to differentiate itself [10:03] i don't have a problem with that [10:04] but the arguments used to justify it are just inconsistent with reality [10:05] ali1234: that was a quick reboot [10:05] czajkowski: i'm having problems, apparently apt-add-repository doesn't import the PGP keys any more? [10:05] or maybe it never did and update manager just never cared before [10:05] in any case, i now have to mess about on the terminal just to get this (unofficial) fix installed [10:07] ali1234: it never did it only does that if you install via software-sources. You need to use the apt-key get or whatever the command is, it tells you on the LP ppa page [10:07] thats not true [10:08] add-apt-repository _did_ used to get the key [10:08] hmm i thought it did [10:08] add-apt-repository normally gets the key.. [10:08] or am I on crack? [10:08] not this time popey [10:08] :) [10:08] anyway problem solved, i just used apt-get [10:08] now reboot time [10:09] It does still get the key [10:10] yup, just tested it here too [10:11] http://paste.ubuntu.com/662524/ [10:11] my bag it's cause I cant use the add-apt-repo for the ppa's I need to add that's why I have to call the key fetch command [10:13] davmor2: private PPA's? [10:14] Daviey: slightly odder than that even :) but yes [10:14] bah [10:15] Daviey: Why? [10:15] davmor2: just wondered [10:15] Adding private ppa's is a pain, and i'm lazy === denny- is now known as denny [10:32] at the airport \o/ [10:33] \o/ [10:33] Myrtti: you trying to tell me they are losing you out of the country? ;) [10:34] Myrtti: Travelling to Oggcamp? [10:35] daubers: yup :-D well, not only that, but yes. [10:35] Myrtti: \o/ [10:36] its my bday gift to myself [10:36] to be away from Finland [10:36] Myrtti: Happy birthday (whenever it is / was) [10:37] Myrtti: Thats a call for cake if ever I've heard one [10:37] daubers: I think you mean Chocolate Cake right :) [10:37] I accept all cake :-D [10:37] davmor2: I dunno, I've really been craving a good victoria sponge recently [10:38] ^ [10:38] all cake [10:41] daubers: http://farm1.static.flickr.com/156/361264218_64e0bc8b53.jpg [10:41] * daubers drools [10:41] Only 20 minutes until lunch! [10:42] daubers: see betty crockers devils food cakes you put on weight looking at it [10:44] davmor2: Thats mean [10:48] Myrtti: how about you is that a cakes you could eat :) [10:58] I just heard there there 3 more deaths [10:59] Cassull_: yes, although ironically things were much better last night [11:00] much better, how? [11:01] london was much quieter last night [11:01] hell, what is going on [11:01] woo fighter planes [11:02] people were back on the trains and underground today [11:03] it's quite scary this whole Affair [11:03] I wonder did I remwmber my wool wrap... hmm [11:04] my church pastor is speaking on bbc radio2 shortly http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio2/ [11:26] still getting gwibber crash in oneiric ..can't try out new gwibber yet :( [11:28] oimon: what crash are you getting? [11:28] bug 811915 [11:28] Launchpad bug 811915 in gwibber (Ubuntu) "gwibber-accounts crashed with TypeError in __init__(): Gtk.Window.set_icon_from_file() argument 1 must be string, not None" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/811915 [11:28] similar to this [11:33] gee gwibber crashed? [11:34] it won't even start in the current alpha [11:34] for a while now [11:34] sounds like gwibber to me [11:34] MartijnVdS: Works fine for me. [11:34] i thought "new gwibber" was a rewrite [11:34] davmor2: I could never get it to work [11:35] oimon: have a word with Kenvandine on #ubuntu-desktop he might know a quick fix for you, he is after oneiric users testing it so will be miffed that you can't, he may also ask for some logs to help fix it too etc [11:36] oimon: he'll be on this afternoon at some point [11:36] davmor2: he commented on that bug on the 4th [11:38] oimon: have you tried removing the pyc file listed? [11:39] oimon: it might be that the pyc isn't being removed by updates so once removed it works maybe? [11:40] davmor2: :D [11:40] i had done a purge but didn't remove the crud..i didn't read every comment as well as you [11:40] works now yay [11:40] thanks [11:40] agh [11:40] no it just crashed :( [11:41] oimon: Meh [11:41] oimon: there is a debug mode you can call but I never remember the cli call that runs it unfortunately [11:42] got a bit further but still rather crappy [11:42] and freezing /going grey - looks like that feature was ported from old gwibber (bad) [11:43] oimon: see I have no issues with mine and I did a fresh install of alpha3 though to check that the kernel fix for my wifi was working [11:44] bah, why is the kinder egg website down [11:44] working again now, pkilled all old gwib processes [11:44] oimon: might just of been a glitch then :( [11:44] however still awful performance and laggy/refreshing/freezing [11:46] davmor2: I have now bought chocolate cake. I blame you [11:46] daubers: hahaha [11:47] oimon: See I used to have huge issue but now it's running really nice [11:47] that would be nice [11:48] the idea of gwibber is good, just the implementation always sucked too badly to use it in the past [11:49] hotot is nice [11:49] oimon: this one is much lighter so I'm not sure why you are having such big issues unless it's the initial import that is the issue maybe [11:59] davmor2: is it still possible to see separate streams on new gwibber? [12:00] can't see any option [12:13] so sad that one of the first looters to appear in court is a teacher :( [12:22] oimon: those are the worst! :P [12:23] does the u-uk minecraft server have mobs on? [12:24] Laney, yup [12:25] :( [12:30] was gonna buy the humble indie bundle but got distracted by people rioting in my town. now it's closed :( [12:30] lol [12:30] Laney: there's plenty of places to hide though [12:31] i like the look of "nad yet it moves" anyone played it? [12:32] * hoover purchased HIB#1 and hasn't even installed a single game yet ;-) [12:33] hoover: not even world of goo? or did you already own it [12:33] I found out *after* the purchase that the androids game wasn't part of the deal, stupid me... it was only a playable demo [12:33] trying to get into braid [12:33] Remind me what titles were included again... might also have been HIB#2 or something different altogether [12:33] has a little steep entry curve considering there's no manual etc [12:34] there are four humble bundles, totalling about 25 games by now [12:34] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humble_Indie_Bundle [12:34] machinarium and osmos are really good [12:35] * Laney has been playing crayon physics [12:36] hopefully the next HIB will include HIB3 [12:38] HIB also deserves support because it has brought games to linux that were previously windows only [12:39] crayon physics is a good example [12:40] oimon: not currently work over the weekend for that I think [12:40] davmor2: great :D [12:41] oimon: I think that was what he was on about anyway :) [12:43] hmm a bug [12:47] who is using banshee? [12:48] does the cover art resize properly for you? [12:49] yes [12:50] should it? [12:50] The entire app just locks up every once in a while [12:50] i think it should [12:50] and eats 400% CPU [12:50] MartijnVdS: i get that too [12:50] because when i resize that panel the image just changes between a sharp and blurry image [12:50] as if the image is being resized by current_width+(desired_width%2) [12:51] ali1234: if i pull the left bar across the screen, the size grows to a 100x100 pic approx, looking good, then doesn't grow anymore - that what you mean? [12:51] no [12:51] i will finish posting this bug rewport and then you can watch the video [12:52] btw if i make the window smaller than the image the image doesn't get smaller [12:52] correc [12:52] banshee has more bugs than a bait shop [12:53] * popey covers Laney's and directhex's ears [12:53] er [12:53] eyes [12:53] bugs without bug reports don't exist. QED. [12:54] [FACT] [12:54] banshee has more bug reports than a bait shop [12:54] fixed [12:54] lol, banshee has so many bug reports that it is almost impossible to determine whether a given bug has already been determined [12:54] i mean reported [12:54] forget launchpad, use bgo [12:54] eh [12:55] i will report it to both [12:55] ali1234: like this one https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=540873 [12:55] bgo won't do anything unless i use a bleeding edge version of banshee anyway [12:55] Gnome bug 540873 in User Interface "Allow changing browser filters; add/remove genre, album artist, year, etc" [Enhancement,Assigned] [12:55] even when the bug is trivial to reproduce [12:55] let it be said that launchpad is approx 5 zillion times better than bugzilla [12:56] yes [12:56] there is no question of that [12:56] bugzilla is a horrible horrible piece of software [12:56] redmine is super nice [12:56] shame it's RoR [12:56] you can't even get a list of all the bugs you reported without defining your own db thrashing query in it's sick metaquery language [12:57] i use redmine for my work helpdesk system [12:57] redmine for ticket tracking? ooookay [12:57] i see it for a bug tracker, but as an rt replacement? [12:58] has a nice UI [12:58] rt has a lame ui [12:58] launchpad's biggest problems aren't the interface anyway - it's the huge number of low-quality bugs in ubuntu's launchpad [12:59] the massive imbalance in reporter / triager numbers [12:59] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/banshee/+bug/823905/+attachment/2265922/+files/out-8.ogv [12:59] Ubuntu bug 823905 in banshee (Ubuntu) "banshee cover art does not resize properly" [Undecided,New] [12:59] low quality bugs are a side effect of having a UI that normal people can actually use [13:00] so, what do you think is going on in that video? [13:00] if the cover art isn't supposed to fill the panel, why is it being scaled at all? [13:00] if it isn't being scaled, why does it go blurry? [13:18] oimon: you mean mulitcolumn view right? [13:21] what can i do about 'Failed to fetch http://ppa.launchpad.net/zlj/test-daily/ubuntu/dists/maverick/main/source/Sources.gz' [13:21] apt-get update does this [13:21] dogmatic69: There doesn't appear to be a repo for Maverick: http://ppa.launchpad.net/zlj/test-daily/ubuntu/dists/ at least not any more [13:22] what is that? any idea? [13:22] dogmatic69: you installed it :) [13:22] bah [13:22] It's a PPA you've installed at some point [13:22] apparently :D [13:22] you'll need to remove the PPA to stop the error message [13:23] http://ppa.launchpad.net/zlj/test-daily/ubuntu/dists/ [13:24] dogmatic69: to way to get rid of it, the easy one is open software-sources and click on the other software tab read through till you find that line right click it and select delete done :) [13:25] its a server [13:25] no clicky clicky [13:26] sudo add-apt-repository -r ppa: